How long do LED shop/ceiling lights really last at full outp

[Algeria Horan]

How long do LED shop/ceiling lights really last at full output anyway?

In another thread, the topic came up that LED lights may not last as long
nor as bright as claimed on the package:

Lights of America exaggerated LED light bulb performance
http://archive.jsonline.com/blogs/news/246355581.html
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/federal-agency-sues-led-bulb-maker/

Since the failure mechanism is electronic as much as it's the fact that LEDs
diminish in light output over time, I wondered how long the LED lights (the
entire unit, including electronics) really last, and, what "rules" were in
place for the claims on the package (since I never get the life that the
fluorescent or incandescent bulbs claim either).

As just one (admittedly egregious) example, the bulbs referenced above:

CLAIM: Replaces light output from a 40 Watt bulb (aka 400 lumens)
TESTS: The F.T.C. found the bulbs produced only 74 lumens of light

CLAIM: The LED bulbs in question would last 30,000 hours
TESTS: They lost 80 percent of their light output after only 1,000 hours

That didn't even cover sudden failure from the electronics.

So, I wonder aloud ...
How long do LED shop/ceiling lights really last at full output anyway?

 

[Algeria Horan]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 16:08:58 +0000 (UTC), Algeria Horan wrote:

> How long do LED shop/ceiling lights really last at full output anyway?

Doing some due diligence, I find that there *are* rules in place.
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/ftc-lighting-facts-label-questions-answers-manufacturers

The Lighting Facts label contains:
1. a bulb˙s brightness,
2. energy cost,
3. life,
4. light appearance,
5. and wattage

Specifically:
1. The brightness in average *initial* lumens rounded to the nearest 5
2. Annual *initial* energy cost at a low 3h/day at an unrealistic 11˘/kWH
3. Life in years, rounded to 1/10th based on a low usage of only 3h/day
4. Color in Kelvin ranging from 2,600K on the left to 6,600K on the right
5. Wattage in average *initial* wattage

Note that, for LEDs, the "initial" specs are almost certainly going to be
vastly different than the actual specs over time, so, already, the label has
to be taken with a grain of salt.

Also note the highly unrealistic 11˘/kWH (which is essentially unattainable,
where I live).

But at least we know what the LEDs are supposed to deliver, initially.

So now we need to figure out what typically happens to these LED light bulbs
over time, mostly in terms of light output & when the lifetime brightness
cutoff point has been reached.

 

[Algeria Horan]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 13:16:53 -0400, Michael Black wrote:

Put one in, and leave it on so it runs up the hours, and see when light
diminishes.

That's effectively what most of you have done, since many of you have LED
lights (I only have one, which I bought from Costco about two months ago, to
replace a non-standard bulb ceiling fixture).
http://cafecocina.com/whome/2015/11/02/costco-led-ceiling-lamps/

I have the box in my hands.
Here's what it says on the box:

Light Output: 1,495 lumens (remember, that's only the *initial* output!)
Watts: 21Watts (remember, that's only the initial watts)
Lumens per watt: 71.19 (why is this even there?)
Color Accuracy: 82 CRI color rendering index (whatever that means)
Light Color = 3000K "Bright White" (which isn't white on the scale)

They do reference more information:
Web: http://www.lightingfacts.com
Telephone: 800-787-1021x4

Going to that web site and typing in the model number of "AL-3151" was a
wasted effort as they have just the label that is already on the package.

Calling that number was also a waste of time, because the customer support
guy said "it lasts more than 5 years because that's the warranty if the
driver fails", which is also a stupid answer (they can give me a warranty of
500 years and it still doesn't answer the question).

I pressed for a real answer, and the guy said "50,000 to 60,000 hours", to
which I was incredulous. So I simply asked where he got that figure, and he
said that's what he says for all questions.

Obviously he was blowing smoke at me, so I asked for someone who actually
wasn't gonna just make this stuff up, so he transferred me to his "technical
support" guy, whose email is apparently gmijangos at jimway.com so I left
him a message to let me know what the *tested* lifetime of the lamp is.

Disgusted, I called the Costco Wholesale number on the package,
800-774-2678, x3, product information, x1 product information and they took
down my information and said they'd get back to me on the L70 lifetime.

One thing the operator had handy, which is more smoke blown in our faces,
but which she kindly stated it was all she had, which was "LED *chips* last
50,000 hours, 34 years@4 hours/day).

That's not what we're asking, since we know two things:
a. The LED chip output diminishes from day 1
b. The driver is the weakest link with respect to lifetime

Most of us haven't had LED bulbs long enough to have any feel for their
lives.

The problem with *everything* on the planet where there is a choice, is that
the MARKETING people only talk about the good stuff (e.g., FWD slides
straight in the snow, for a hilarious example), but they don't talk about
the BAD STUFF (e.g., weight ratios and working in the engine bay are
atrocious for most FWD cars).

So, the problem that I see with the LED marketing is that people are only
talking about the good stuff, which is all fine and dandy.

But I'm looking for information on the bad stuff too.

Like the fact that the output decreases the moment you plug it in,

I'd also point out that if you read the fine print on the LED bulb
packages, the number of years they last is based on a limited number of
hours every day.

Apparently, it's based on 4 hours per day, based on what I wrote above.

So they may try to make the figures look good, but the
actual hours may be okay, if somewhat low. I leave the ceiling light on
all day, that will diminish the numver of years the bulb lasts if I look
at the stated "number of years".

I'm not sure why the total number of hours would be different if you use the
light for 4 hours a day or for 24 hours a day, but apparently it is.

On the other hand, prices are dropping, I just got a "100W" LED for 7.99
rather than the regular 19.99, and the lower wattage LED bulbs are already
going to lower regular prices. And I'm using something like 19Watts (I
think actually less) compared to the 100W of an incandescent bulb, so
power usage is down.

On the bulbs you just bought, what's the L70 time period?

 

[jfeng@my-deja.com]

On Monday, October 31, 2016 at 9:09:03 AM UTC-7, Algeria Horan wrote:

How long do LED shop/ceiling lights really last at full output anyway?

One of the failure mechanisms is insufficient heat sinking, so the electronics (probably the electrolytics in the SMPS) get cooked and die earlier. Cheap bulbs may be OK when mounted base down, but have reduced lifetimes in other orientations. The more expensive ones may have better heat sinking and better tolerate being mounted base up. Feel how hot the bulb gets at the neck.

 

[Algeria Horan]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 18:08:23 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:

How long do LED shop/ceiling lights really last at full output anyway?

http://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2012/feb/understanding-the-cause-of-fading-in-high-brightness-leds

Thanks for that url.
Here's a relevant set of snippets from:

Understanding the Cause of Fading in High-Brightness LEDs
By Steven Keeping
Contributed By Electronic Products, 2012-02-21

LED failureĄ is most likely to be the result of light output falling below
an acceptable threshold (typically 70 percent of the initial output.

The primary cause of that fading (or ´lumen failureĄ) is triggered (for the
most part) by the minute threading dislocations introduced to the chip
during wafer manufacture.

Threading dislocations are a major problem...where threading dislocations
are vertical micro-cracks caused by strain generated by the mismatch in
InGaN and Sapphire or SiC crystal lattices .. and where ... things get worse
over time, as the rate of degradation is directly related to the initial
density of threading dislocations and the heat to which the LED is subjected
.... all of which gets worse ... due to heating during operation, thermal
expansion and shrinkage when the LED is turned on and off, and mechanical
stress such as vibration.

Worse yet ... as the chip ages, it will run hotter and hotter ... due to an
increased number of phonons, accelerating the formation of dislocations and
the device˙s eventual demise.

-------------------
So now we know what kills LEDs to the 70% level (which is the formal
definition of dead), which is that inherent cracks between crystals form
over time, just as mud cracks as it dries at the bottom of a pond.

The fundamental problem is cracks between crystals only gets worse.
b. Heat makes things worse even faster
c. On/off cycles makes things worse even faster
d. Vibration makes things worse even faster

So, given they don't heat/vibrate/cycle the LEDS (other than the 4 hours per
day), you'll likely never get the advertised L70 lifetime in the real world.

But what do you get for a 70%-illumination lifetime in the real world?

 

[Algeria Horan]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 19:08:08 +0000 (UTC), Algeria Horan wrote:

b. Heat makes things worse even faster
c. On/off cycles makes things worse even faster
d. Vibration makes things worse even faster

So, given they don't heat/vibrate/cycle the LEDS (other than the 4 hours per
day), you'll likely never get the advertised L70 lifetime in the real world.

But what do you get for a 70%-illumination lifetime in the real world?

I forgot to mention that none of what kills the LED over time discusses the
frail electronics, which also fail.

So, we need to know how long the "LED drivers" last too.

The life of the fixture is the shorter of the two failure modes:
a. Inherent cracks between crystals get exponentially worse over time
b. The drivers suddenly fail at any time

So, we still don't have any decent grasp on how long LED fixtures last, in
the real world.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

High end LED devices (Cree/RAB/GE) will last many thousands of hours and if they last the first 200 hours, will do so pretty much without further ado..

In a previous life, I managed retail shopping centers, wherein we replaced lot lighting with LED devices (RAB) in the 2700K spectrum. Where we were replacing lamps on-average once per year throughout the center, it has been three (3) years now without a single failure at one location, and two years without a single failure at another location. And this is 60 heads at one location and 22 at another.

As to residential LED lamps - if you buy crap, expect crap in return. As previously noted, heat-sinking is critical, assembly quality is critical, and the actual LED emitters are critical. I have done two offices in CREE devices, with one (1) failure in three years. And that was within the first 200 hours - replaced by CREE including shipping both ways without a murmur.

They were not cheap, but, they worked and still are working. And the power savings are dead-on per the package statements.

Guys and gals, this is not rocket science. We were early adopters of the technology, true, and perhaps paid for that earliness in first-cost. But, even at that price, the paybacks have been as-represented. And I have learned over the years the perils of being price-driven for any new/cutting edge technology at all, and especially for one where the price disparities are significant.

As far as "due diligence" is concerned, about any manufacturer can paper their way to an impressive review, and the FTC has this touching habit of believing what they are told until beaten down with the clue-stick-otherwise. Ask a USER. Several users. And if a manufacturer/supplier cannot give you as many users as you wish, RUN, don't walk away. Or, if the technology is so new as there are, legitimately, few users, ask about paying out of the promised savings. I have had excellent success on that basis. The REPUTABLE Manufacturer wins by gaining a sale, and a referral, you win by 'seeing' the savings right up front.

We are gradually shifting to CREE devices at home - as our 8+ year old CFL devices gradually die.

One last note: Habitat for Humanity was selling 19-watt LED Devices for $1 a few weeks ago, from China, of course. I invested $3 to check them out. One (1) device in our Kitchen lights stepped on every radio/tuner AM or FM in the entire house (4,800 square feet, three stories) including brands and devices from Zenith (9S262) to Revox (A720). About the only things that did not seem to be affected were our WiFi router and cell phones. We have a dozen CREE lamps, and no issue from them.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Michael Black]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016, Algeria Horan wrote:

How long do LED shop/ceiling lights really last at full output anyway?

In another thread, the topic came up that LED lights may not last as long
nor as bright as claimed on the package:

Lights of America exaggerated LED light bulb performance
http://archive.jsonline.com/blogs/news/246355581.html
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/federal-agency-sues-led-bulb-maker/

Put one in, and leave it on so it runs up the hours, and see when light
diminishes.

Most of us haven't had LED bulbs long enough to have any feel for their
lives.

I'd also point out that if you read the fine print on the LED bulb
packages, the number of years they last is based on a limited number of
hours every day. So they may try to make the figures look good, but the
actual hours may be okay, if somewhat low. I leave the ceiling light on
all day, that will diminish the numver of years the bulb lasts if I look
at the stated "number of years".

On the other hand, prices are dropping, I just got a "100W" LED for 7.99
rather than the regular 19.99, and the lower wattage LED bulbs are already
going to lower regular prices. And I'm using something like 19Watts (I
think actually less) compared to the 100W of an incandescent bulb, so
power usage is down.

Michael

 

[Scott Lurndal]

Algeria Horan <algeriahoran@algeria.horan.net> writes:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 16:08:58 +0000 (UTC), Algeria Horan wrote:

How long do LED shop/ceiling lights really last at full output anyway?

http://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2012/feb/understanding-the-cause-of-fading-in-high-brightness-leds

 

[Jon Elson]

Algeria Horan wrote:

As just one (admittedly egregious) example, the bulbs referenced above:

CLAIM: Replaces light output from a 40 Watt bulb (aka 400 lumens)
TESTS: The F.T.C. found the bulbs produced only 74 lumens of light

CLAIM: The LED bulbs in question would last 30,000 hours
TESTS: They lost 80 percent of their light output after only 1,000 hours

YIKES!

I built my own LED light replacement for 48" tubes in our kitchen. They
have been running about 2 years, now. If they have lost some output, it is
not real obvious to me.

I'm getting something like 2000 lumens from a 20-LED string, running on 21 W
measured from the mains supply.

I can't reply to commercially produced retrofits, some of them are
apparently quite awful.

Jon

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 19:08:08 +0000 (UTC), Algeria Horan
<algeriahoran@algeria.horan.net> wrote:

>But what do you get for a 70%-illumination lifetime in the real world?

Dunno. Your real world LED application is not the same as my real
world LED application and the science fiction world of marketing tech
products.

Perhaps you might be interested in "lumen depreciation", L90, L80,
L70, TM-21, LM-80, LM-40, etc.
<http://www.p-2.com/blog/lighting-basics-lifespan-lumen-depreciation-l70-tm-21-lm-80-lm-40-and-other-confusing-yet-useful-terms/>
There are some interesting methods of calculating LED life such as:
"Reported TM-21 values have an upper limit of 6-times the number
of LM-80 test hours. So if an LED chip is tested for 6,000 hours,
its max reported TM-21 lifetime would be 36,000 hours. If the
chip was tested for 10,000 hours, its max reported TM-21 would
be 60,000 hours."
Magic is a reallly nice way to produce bigger numbers.

One can also be devious:
"It’s worth noting that there are two different types of
TM-21 ratings, "reported" and "calculated" ratings."
Sigh...

Few run 30,000 hr tests. At 8,760 hrs/year, it would take over three
years to run the test, by which time the product is obsolete and
replaced by something new and improved. Instead, they run a HALT
(Highly Accelerated Life Test), which is faster, and presumably
produces the necessary inflated figures:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=led+accelerated+life+testing>
The basic idea is to test the LED at various elevated temperatures,
connect the dots on a graph, and extrapolate to how long it might last
at some specified operating temperature. At 25C it will last nearly
forever, which assumes that the LED has some form of cooling system.
One can generate amazingly large and impressive numbers this way.
Despite my derisive comments, it does work quite well when performed
honestly and where the test parameters are sane.

For example, IEC 62717 and IEC 62722 LED life testing standards both
demand 6,000 hrs of test time, with total output in lumens recorded
every 1,000 hrs. Measuring lumens accurately requires an integrating
sphere:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=integrating+sphere&tbm=isch>
which might explain why they don't just use a common light meter and
why there are so few measurement points. Some detail on how Luxo
specifies its lifetimes:
<http://glamox.com/gsx/led-lifetime-and-the-factors-that-affect-it>
I doubt if we will ever see detailed life test results from Costco
LED's as you might from higher priced LED luminaires.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Algeria Horan]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 17:16:09 -0600, Neill Massello wrote:

Also note the highly unrealistic 11˘/kWH (which is essentially unattainable,
where I live).

They were probably using the US Total All Sectors figure from this page:

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a

Thanks for finding that.

Oh, to live in Louisiana, at less than 10˘/kWH.

California is listed at double that, at 19˘/kWH, but even that must be some
kind of wacko average as we pay a tiered system, where, in practice, the
first tier is used up in the first week of the month, the second tier by the
third week, and the next tier for the end of the month.

It goes up precipitously with each tier, and the tiers are the same for
everyone, so they do NOT take into account anything specific like the number
of bedrooms or bathrooms or square feet or even the number of people.

 

[Algeria Horan]

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 15:13:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Perhaps you might be interested in "lumen depreciation", L90, L80,
L70, TM-21, LM-80, LM-40, etc.
http://www.p-2.com/blog/lighting-basics-lifespan-lumen-depreciation-l70-tm-21-lm-80-lm-40-and-other-confusing-yet-useful-terms/

Yikes Jeff!

You would bring up *more* complex LED-lifetime terms to figure out!

And, you would also find MARKETING BULLSHIT in the mix!

LM-80 = a standard for measuring LED lumen maintenance & depreciation
LM-40 = time for 50% of the lamps in a large group to burn out
L70 = time to degrade to 70% of its original lumens
L80 = time to degrade to 80% of its original lumens
L90 = time to degrade to 90% of its original lumens
Reported TM-21 = predicts lifetime using LM80 + optimistic magic math
Calculated TM-21 = predicts lifetime using LM80 + more optimistic magic math

> Few run 30,000 hr tests.

Hence the "magic math" on the lifetime figures...

The basic idea is to test the LED at various elevated temperatures,
connect the dots on a graph, and extrapolate to how long it might last
at some specified operating temperature. At 25C it will last nearly
forever, which assumes that the LED has some form of cooling system.
One can generate amazingly large and impressive numbers this way.
Despite my derisive comments, it does work quite well when performed
honestly and where the test parameters are sane.

Seems to me that the "LED lifetime" figure everyone is quoting in this
thread and in other threads is total bullshit, so far...

I doubt if we will ever see detailed life test results from Costco
LED's as you might from higher priced LED luminaires.

Well, I was sick of replacing very expensive non-standard Philips
fluorescent bulbs, so I bought the LED light fixture from Costco just to get
rid of the non-standard wacko shaped bulbs that kept burning out anyway.
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/non-integrated-compact-fluorescent-lamps/4075597/

I asked Costco and the manufacturer to provide the information on the
lifetime of the LED light that I did buy.

I didn't get anything more than "hey, the warranty is 5 years so that's how
long it lasts".

What irks me is that they seem to never have run into someone who doesn't
accept that bs as an "answer" to the question of how long the light fixture
is expected to last.

I'm guessing the LED light fixture I bought lasts no longer than a couple
sets of incandescent bulbs would have.

Time will tell.

 

[Phil Allison]

Algeria Horan wrote:

How long do LED shop/ceiling lights really last at full output anyway?

** The last until they fail or fade badly.

In another thread, the topic came up that LED lights may not last as long
nor as bright as claimed on the package:

** The lighting industry is full of crooks, has been for decades.

Performance claims are simply made up by marketing pukes, not engineers.

Products are mainly made in China to the lowest possible cost and samples are rarely tested by anyone other than consumers.

Failing to live up to the claims made on the box is a LEGAL issue, not an electronics problem.

Lights of America exaggerated LED light bulb performance
http://archive.jsonline.com/blogs/news/246355581.html
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/federal-agency-sues-led-bulb-maker/

** Maybe that will shake a few of them up a bit.

Meanwhile you are just pissing in the wind.



..... Phil

 

[Neill Massello]

Algeria Horan <algeriahoran@algeria.horan.net> wrote:

Also note the highly unrealistic 11˘/kWH (which is essentially unattainable,
where I live).

They were probably using the US Total All Sectors figure from this page:

<https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a>

 

[Phil Allison]

Algeria Horan wrote:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 15:13:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:


Well, I was sick of replacing very expensive non-standard Philips
fluorescent bulbs, so I bought the LED light fixture from Costco just to get
rid of the non-standard wacko shaped bulbs that kept burning out anyway.

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/non-integrated-compact-fluorescent-lamps/4075597/


** Those fluoro lamps are for *commercial use* where they are either left on permanently or cycled once a day. The main wear out mechanism is to the filaments when starting.

Had one in your bathroom did you ?


..... Phil

 

[Dan Espen]

Algeria Horan <algeriahoran@algeria.horan.net> writes:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 17:16:09 -0600, Neill Massello wrote:

Also note the highly unrealistic 11¢/kWH (which is essentially unattainable,
where I live).

They were probably using the US Total All Sectors figure from this page:

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a

Thanks for finding that.

Oh, to live in Louisiana, at less than 10¢/kWH.

California is listed at double that, at 19¢/kWH, but even that must be some
kind of wacko average as we pay a tiered system, where, in practice, the
first tier is used up in the first week of the month, the second tier by the
third week, and the next tier for the end of the month.

It goes up precipitously with each tier, and the tiers are the same for
everyone, so they do NOT take into account anything specific like the number
of bedrooms or bathrooms or square feet or even the number of people.

Read the full report Appendix C.
Then come back and tell us how unrealistic their numbers are.

--
Dan Espen

 

[Colin Horsley]

On 1/11/2016 13:46, Phil Allison wrote:

Algeria Horan wrote:

How long do LED shop/ceiling lights really last at full output anyway?


** The last until they fail or fade badly.


In another thread, the topic came up that LED lights may not last as long
nor as bright as claimed on the package:



** The lighting industry is full of crooks, has been for decades.

Have you seen this?

http://conspiracy.wikia.com/wiki/Light_bulb_conspiracy

or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1j0XDGIsUg

Colin



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

 

[Dan Espen]

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> writes:

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 19:08:08 +0000 (UTC), Algeria Horan
algeriahoran@algeria.horan.net> wrote:

But what do you get for a 70%-illumination lifetime in the real world?

root,

Believe it or not, the tests are designed to reflect real world usage.

You keep implying that there is something wrong with all advertised
LED bulb lifetimes. Then you tell us you need to Google search to
find out if that's true.

Dunno. Your real world LED application is not the same as my real
world LED application and the science fiction world of marketing tech
products.
....
Few run 30,000 hr tests. At 8,760 hrs/year, it would take over three
years to run the test, by which time the product is obsolete and
replaced by something new and improved.

Jeff,

Actually, 3 years wouldn't be useful for anything but the decidedly
"not realworld" test case of continuous use.

It would take considerably more than 3 years to test the common
on at night, off during the day test case.

Instead, they run a HALT
(Highly Accelerated Life Test), which is faster, and presumably
produces the necessary inflated figures:

You could have left the word "inflated" out of that sentence.
It's an insult to the rather clever testing that you described.

.... snipped test description.

--
Dan Espen

 

[Algeria Horan]

On Tue, 01 Nov 2016 00:14:43 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

> Believe it or not, the tests are designed to reflect real world usage.

Real world seems to *always* be less than advertised lifetime.
At least for me they seem to be.

I'd be pleasantly surprised if LED bulbs last 5 years.

What fails?
a. The electronics!
b. The bulbs.

You keep implying that there is something wrong with all advertised
LED bulb lifetimes. Then you tell us you need to Google search to
find out if that's true.

We know the manufacturers lie, or, more accurately, the MARKETING people,
who make the labels, say only what they want you to think.

For example, they'll tell you an LED itself lasts 50,000 hours, but they
won't tell you the "driver" lasts anywhere from zero to a couple of years.

You could have left the word "inflated" out of that sentence.
It's an insult to the rather clever testing that you described.

The one thing about Jeff is that he's shown himself over the past decade to
be a well-balanced person who is not swayed, like most people are, by
exaggerated claims, whether they be any claim by Apple for their WiFi
reception, or a bogus claim by LED manufacturers (such as the ones I
received on the phone yesterday) as to lifetime.

He'll deny this though, as he doesn't like accolades, but he is always on
the money, and, he almost always provides *proof*, something which you need
to provide also in order for us to believe your claims (I'm not saying you
didn't or don't provide proof - I'm just saying that Jeff almost always does
- so what he says carries weight).

Also, Jeff runs his own *tests* of tons of things, which are tests that most
of us have never run, they're that detailed (ask him about router claims
versus the real world some day!).

Jeff is like I am. We prove what we say, and we provide references, and
photos and other reliable statistics. You'd need to do the same to hold
water with us.

Anyway, fact is, I have a bulb, in my very hand, incandescent, that failed
in two days.
https://s15.postimg.org/92aoq3xej/burned_out_in_two_days.jpg

Notice the package says "1.4 year life".
https://s18.postimg.org/602tefda1/ge_bulb_burned_out.jpg