How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to t

[Frank Baron]

How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg

Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched
these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg

For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close
to the sidewall.
http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg

I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
Is it that the patch will flex too much?
Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

Horatio Alger/Norman Spruance/John Harmon/Frank Bacon is BAAAAAAAAACK.

Please do not dignify his drivel with a response.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 11:38:26 AM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote:

Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire
dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-)

There is mounting - and there is "mounting".

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

H.L. Mencken

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

Imagine this scenario:

Frank/Horatio/Norman/John, our idiot in search of his very own village, using his BMW with his front-end work, now driving on four bald tires that he has repaired and installed with his Harbor Freight tools out on the road right beside the rest of us.

Don't engage with this jackass. With apologies to the hooved variety for the base libel.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

H.L. Mencken

 

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 10:14:36 -0600, dpb advised:

I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
Is it that the patch will flex too much?
Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?

All of the above in greater/lesser degree depending on just where and
how bad the damage is...

Thank you for the information as some were on the last tread groove (see
below how we patched it with a home-made plug patch.

None of those are even close to the sidewall; they're all well out in
tread area.

Thank you for that advice because I wasn't sure at all how close you can
get to the sidewall for it to fail the patch test.

We patched this alloy-wheel 55-series tire where a flat-on-both-sides tiny
bolt (with no sharp edges whatsoever) had wedged itself into the last
groove, and eventually punctured the tire.
http://i.cubeupload.com/09PwHs.jpg

Here you see the tiny (now headless) bolt next to the puncture hole:
http://i.cubeupload.com/6F0CnI.jpg

To properly patch that hole, we reamed the hole with this hand tool:
http://i.cubeupload.com/sZ6qxo.jpg

Using that hand tool, we probed the hole slant (it went in straight):
http://i.cubeupload.com/UxYLNx.jpg

Then we grabbed this second hand tool & slobbered glue on the plug:
http://i.cubeupload.com/EMU9zy.jpg

This is the plug sticking up on the outside of the 55-series tire:
http://i.cubeupload.com/V1dCGA.jpg

To cut off the protruding plug, we failed trying the diagonal cutter:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ra3Prp.jpg

We also failed with the flush dikes because the plug was too rubbery:
http://i.cubeupload.com/M2BHaA.jpg

We ended up slicing it off with a utility knife but we learned how to slice
the plug off more neatly when we cut off the plug protruding on the inside:
http://i.cubeupload.com/r0n5WI.jpg

The dremel tool metal blade cut off the plug flush with the inside wall:
http://i.cubeupload.com/QSBXAK.jpg

Then we buffed with a wire wheel, where we learned that it would be much
nicer to have a "ball" shaped wire wheel because of the angles involved in
buffing away the outside rubber to expose the virgin rubber to the
vulcanizing glue:
http://i.cubeupload.com/QNrRco.jpg

Here is the buffed result before applying the patch over the plug:
http://i.cubeupload.com/otho8w.jpg

After applying vulcanizing glue, we stitched down the patch:
http://i.cubeupload.com/BrkYl3.jpg

Where this is what the final patch looked like:
http://i.cubeupload.com/UBOmyw.jpg

Any advice you can provide will be helpful as the whole point was to learn
by doing, where already I'd do it differently the next time (e.g., I'd use
the dremel tool on both the inside and outside and I would get a roundish
wire brush that fit the inside of a tire better.

 

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:38:23 -0500, Wade Garrett advised:

Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire
dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-)

That's a good question which I don't know how to answer.

Thinking about it, I guess it's just that I hate to not be able to do
something that I *should* be able to do at home.

We should all be able to:
a. Mount and dismount a tire at home
b. Patch a tire at home
c. Balance a wheel at home

I patched all five tires, and learned a bunch about what tools would be
better (e.g., a roundish wire brush would be a dream come true to have).

Here I found that breaking the bottom bead on an alloy wheel 55-series tire
was tremendously easier than it was on the 75-series SUV steel-wheel tires
(but you notice how I positioned the purpose-built HF bead-breaking tool
with a board on one end and the HF tire changer on the other end):
http://i.cubeupload.com/ngg3X3.jpg

Then I learned to mark the position of the valve since we'd normally be
re-using these tires and we would want the balance to be the same as it was
before (at least as a starting point):
http://i.cubeupload.com/5Kl0Dy.jpg

Breaking the top bead was so easy that it doesn't need explanation:
http://i.cubeupload.com/PouqLx.jpg

Likewise, levering off the top bead from the alloy wheel was easy peasy:
http://i.cubeupload.com/CIiEKR.jpg

Levering off the bottom bead from the alloy wheel was also very easy:
http://i.cubeupload.com/477H02.jpg

Then, it was time to plug and patch the hole, which, in this case, was made
by a bolt that was NOT sharp!
http://i.cubeupload.com/jxxp46.jpg

The bolt may have wedged into the groove and slowly punctured the tire:

Any advice you can provide (that is intended to be helpful) is welcome
because I always want to learn (but advice saying have it done at a shop is
not going to be helpful).

 

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie advised:

Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.

If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
be a reason it will fail.

Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking.
How close can you get to the edge, and, why.

I am assuming it flexes more at the edges.
I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free.

Is that correct?

BTW, what *size* & *shape* patches do you put over the protruding plug?
http://i.cubeupload.com/MGkwIO.jpg

I tried a small round patch (which was a bit bumpy):
http://i.cubeupload.com/heSWKF.jpg

And a bigger patch which was flatter:
http://i.cubeupload.com/0zUbny.jpg

Also what do you use at home to cut the plug off flush?
http://i.cubeupload.com/ll4kKR.jpg

It would have been nice to get the plug cut more flush than this:
http://i.cubeupload.com/35mRC3.jpg

Although, when I buffed it with the wire wheel, it was flush:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ZoudZU.jpg

 

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:58:01 -0500, Meanie advised:

I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper
patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the
sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those
locations.

I think you replied to "Frank" who is different than I am, so you're both
in agreement that you can get to the edge of the tire tread.

As I replied to Frank, I hadn't realized there were circumferential steel
belts on top of radial nylon plies, so, it seems (but I'm not sure) that
the delineation line is the edge of the steel belts.
http://www.tirefailures.com/images/tire-tread-diagram.jpg

The problem is, of course, figuring out *where* those steel belt edges lie:
http://www.tirefailures.com/images_vf/img/TireCutaway.jpg

From the diagrams, they seem to lie just below the last tread marks:
https://www.lesschwab.com/images/backcountry_radialtire_layers.jpg

From what you said, the sides that don't have belts flex so much that the
patch would fall off. Is that a correct assessment of the edge problem?

 

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:37:16 -0500, Frank advised:

Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the
tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side
wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch.

Thanks Frank for explaining as I didn't realize until I just looked it up
that there are circumferential steel "belts" and then there are these
"radial" body plies.
http://www.idmsvcs.com/2vmod/suspension/wheels/tires/beadairleak/tirecutaway.gif

If I look at these cutaway diagrams, it seems we can patch to the edge of
the steel belts, but not after that edge (where there is only the "body
plies". Is that right?
https://www.treaddepot.com/assets/images/content/content-atv-construction-1.png

 

[Wade Garrett]

On 12/21/16 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote:

How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg

Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched
these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg

For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close
to the sidewall.
http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg

I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
Is it that the patch will flex too much?
Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?

Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire
dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-)

--
Make America great again? Hell, I'd be happy if you just made it America
again.
- @KelsowFarlander

 

[Meanie]

On 12/21/2016 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote:

How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg

Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I patched
these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg

For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close
to the sidewall.
http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg

I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
Is it that the patch will flex too much?
Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?

Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.

If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
be a reason it will fail.

 

Frank Baron:

I don't trust those straight plugs. Only
the 'mushroom' plugs(flat on inside) for
me. Had too many 'cigarette butt'
plugs come out on me.

 

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:51:17 -0500, clare@snyder.on.ca advised:

An improperly installed tire repair is a disaster waiting to happen.
I hope Frankie's liability insurance is adequate and paid
up.Particularly if the tires are not going on his own vehicle.

That's good advice except it's not usable advice unless you actually think
the plug-and-then-patch repairs I made are "a disaster waiting to happen".

It's like saying "don't run with scissors", which is great advice, but
essentially not useful advice.

What I'm looking for is useful advice, particularly with respect to my
technique. I agree with you that a single-piece patch-plug is superior to
my two piece arrangement but other than that, what do you see "unsafe"
about my plug-and-then-patch method?

The whole point is to find out if this method is a safe patch.

To help you advise me, I provided plenty of pictures of the plug and then
patch which, I think, is a valid patch [except for the tread wear (which is
a separate issue unrelated to the patch itself)].

Here is what is underneath the patch:
http://i.cubeupload.com/ZoudZU.jpg

Here is the final repair on the inside (using a big patch):
http://i.cubeupload.com/UBOmyw.jpg

Here is the final repair on the inside (using a small patch):
http://i.cubeupload.com/heSWKF.jpg

Other than the treadwear, did you see anything unsafe in my patch
technique?

a. Location of patch
b. Patch materials
c. Patch technique

Or is it all safe?

 

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 17:18:30 -0500, clare@snyder.on.ca advised:

Th eproblem with belt edge repairs is in the way the belt is
manufactured - the edge of the belt has similar too the "selve edge"
on broadcloth fabric - the "weave" is different to provide a
non-ravelling edge to provide strength. A plug too close to the edge
of the belt damages this re-enforced edge, risking a belt rupture

Thanks for that detail that the edge of the steel belt is different than
the middle of the steel belt. That may be why I think I've heard tire
repair guys saying they can't patch within so many inches of the edge, even
if it's still in the "tread" area.

Generally speaking an inch and a quarter in from the edge or shoulder
of the tread is as close as repairs are recommended. The last bit of
the belt is a worse problem than the actual shoulder, outside the belt
area.

Thank you for that detail because that's essentially why I asked the
question. So we're looking at an inch (to remember it easily) from the edge
of the tread on both sides.

A fractured belt can do a LOT of damage to a car when it lets go -
even if it does not cause loss of control. I've seen fenders (wings to
our British friends) torn off or totally destroyed by an exploding
tire belt, and the side of a travel trailer totally demolished.

I have seen "alligators" on the road, mostly from truck tires, probably
from re-surfaced tires, probably on the inside tire of a dual-tire setup,
which must flap like a sonofabitch when they come off!

According to the tire industry association, neither just a plug ot
just a patch is acceptable, and a tire should be totally temoved from
the rim for repair to properly inspect for secondary damage.

This industry (RMA?) recommendation makes sense, and I agree with your
statement that both a plug and a patch should be made and the inside of the
tire should be visibly inspected.

For one, someone could have driven on the tire such that the belts are
protruding from the inside. In this case, I didn't see such damage on the
five test tires, but it could have been there.

I'll
plug a tire to get home, but a proper repair should be completed as
soon as possible.

I agree with you that an external plug in an emergency is an expediency
that most of us would do. I'd even patch a sidewall, if that's what it took
to get off the road. (Dunno if that's even possible though.)

 

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:22:54 -0500, Meanie advised:

Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to
left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4".

Thanks for the detail, as all the holes I patched were screws or bolts, so,
they're pretty small, and, as others said, all were within the "tread"
area.

Also,
low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over
higher sidewall tires.

That's interesting as I can infer from that the lower-profile tires have a
slightly greater area of patchability, all other things being equal.

Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread
portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere
along the tread area should hold if prepped properly.

That's interesting that the patch can go to very edge of the tread.
I had previously thought it could only go in the "middle" of the tread.

A patch roughly 1" to 1 1/4" in diameter is sufficient but I also
recommend a patch/plug combo if one can be used. Otherwise, it is
important to ensure that proper prep is performed.

I knew about patchplugs, but I didn't have any so I made my own patchplug
with a plug first, cut flush, and then a patch.

Seems to me, in the end, the kind of patch and then plug that I did should
work though, as they're essentially the same thing in the end, right?

In the areas you plugged, if you're just using a plug, there is no need
to remove the tire, You can simply plug the hole from the outside.

Thanks. I actually knew that (but you didn't know I knew that). I was
removing the tire anyway, so as to get experience with breaking the bead
and reseating the bead.

So I plugged it first from the outside, and then patched it from the
inside. Seems to me that should be good enough for government work, but I
don't know (which is why I ask).

There's no need to cut the plug on the inside. But in those open areas,
a patch/plug is better.

I agree a single-piece patch-plug is better than either a patch or a plug
alone. I suspect a two-piece patch-and-then-plug is still better than
either a patch or a plug alone.

Does that also make sense to you?

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MzgyWDUwMA==/$T2eC16VHJGYE9nooiLK+BQUlyRvG4Q~~60_57.JPG?set_id=8800005007
if you want to ensure a good seal. You protrude the plug from the inside
out. The patch makes contact with the inner tire and the plug sticks out
from the tread. That is where you cut using a pair of dykes.

That does seem like a far more elegant solution than the path-and-then-plug
that I came up with on my own.

http://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/images/ProductImages/5727864-24.jpg
You don't want to cut the plug flush. It is best to leave some
straddling out. As it makes contact with the road, it will help seal the
area from the outside. Even if the hole is inside a tread, cut if flush
with the top of the tread. As the tire wears, so will the plug stem.

Thank you for that advice. I figured it had to be flush, but your argument
that it doesn't need to be flush as it may seal better not being flush and
that it will wear with the tire makes sense.

 

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:52:29 -0500, clare@snyder.on.ca advised:

And steel belts are hell on plugs, and if fractured can really cause
problems with tread squirm and tire integrety.

Hi Clare,

I patched five tires with the goopy string plugs, and then cut them flush
on both sides, and then put a patch on top of the plugs.

I know they sell a one-piece patch-plug, but that seemed like overkill for
my tests so I just wonder what you recommend for two-piece plugs if a
one-piece patch-plug isn't around.

Would you do it the way I did it, or differently?

 

[Frank Baron]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 18:25:31 -0500, Meanie advised:

Throughout the years, I have often heard warnings such as dropping or
painting a motorcycle helmet halts it's ability to protect, patching or
plugging a motorcycle or car tire is dangerous, etc. and I've have yet
to hear. read or experience any mishaps related from such an event.

I realize you're talking to Clare, but I want to say I agree with you that
warnings such as "don't run with scissors" are great, but they're
essentially useless because nobody ever gets hurt while running with
scissors (so to speak).

Specifically, Clare told me that my patch is a "disaster waiting to
happen", which, other than the treadwear, I don't see where he gets that
from.

Sure, I didn't use a single-piece patchplug, but, my question is whether
anyone sees a *safety* issue with the way I did these tires?

a. Is the patch too large or too small?
b. Is the goopy plug a safety issue?
c. Is the location on the tire a safety issue.

Other than treadwear, I don't (yet) see any safety issues with my repairs.

Not
saying it hasn't happened, but I've yet to hear about such a case. I
won't dispute the possibilities, but I also believe many warnings are in
place for the manufacturer to protect themselves from liability and
warranty. Thus, each person should proceed at their own risk.

Again, I agree with you. It's like that warning on plastic bags not to
suffocate people with them. They're not useful for someone who is thinking
about what they're doing.

Which is what I'm trying to do here.

I have done many repair jobs on car and motorcycle tires to save money
while growing up. I do so now cause I know how even though I can afford
to have it done or replace a product but I cannot see replacing a good
product because it has a minor flaw. Could I be at risk? Possibly, but
it's a risk I've taken often and I'm willing to take again due to the
100% success rate thus far.

In an emergency, you'll be glad you have those skills!
I'm trying to obtain those skills now, before the emergency too.

 

[Frank]

On 12/21/2016 12:08 PM, Meanie wrote:

On 12/21/2016 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote:
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg

Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I
patched
these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg

For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too close
to the sidewall.
http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg

I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
Is it that the patch will flex too much?
Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?


Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.

If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
be a reason it will fail.

Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the
tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side
wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch.

 

[Meanie]

On 12/21/2016 1:37 PM, Frank wrote:

On 12/21/2016 12:08 PM, Meanie wrote:
On 12/21/2016 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote:
How do I decide if these five tires are holed too close to the sidewall?
http://i.cubeupload.com/qD9rZv.jpg

Yesterday, for practice in dismounting, patching, and remounting, I
patched
these 5 tires above, which a friend and I had lying around.
http://i.cubeupload.com/gCNODb.jpg

For the purpose of this thread, we can ignore the tread wear since the
question is being asked about how to decide when a nail hole is too
close
to the sidewall.
http://i.cubeupload.com/0X8NfQ.jpg

I guess the first question is *WHY* we can't patch next to the sidewall.
Is it that the patch won't hold? Why?
Is it that the patch will flex too much?
Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break?


Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've
patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a
few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life.

If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't
be a reason it will fail.

Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the
tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side
wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch.

I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper
patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the
sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those
locations.

 

[Frank]

On 12/21/2016 2:42 PM, Frank Baron wrote:

On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:58:01 -0500, Meanie advised:

I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper
patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the
sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those
locations.

I think you replied to "Frank" who is different than I am, so you're both
in agreement that you can get to the edge of the tire tread.

As I replied to Frank, I hadn't realized there were circumferential steel
belts on top of radial nylon plies, so, it seems (but I'm not sure) that
the delineation line is the edge of the steel belts.
http://www.tirefailures.com/images/tire-tread-diagram.jpg

The problem is, of course, figuring out *where* those steel belt edges lie:
http://www.tirefailures.com/images_vf/img/TireCutaway.jpg

From the diagrams, they seem to lie just below the last tread marks:
https://www.lesschwab.com/images/backcountry_radialtire_layers.jpg

From what you said, the sides that don't have belts flex so much that the
patch would fall off. Is that a correct assessment of the edge problem?

That was my point.