K
Ken G.
Guest
A DVD player made with vacum tubes .
D
David
Guest
The size of Texas.
"Ken G." <goodguyy@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:13572-407DE4B4-149@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net...
"Ken G." <goodguyy@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:13572-407DE4B4-149@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net...
S
Sam Goldwasser
Guest
goodguyy@webtv.net (Ken G.) writes:
a vacuum tube? Or redesign it to use vacuum tubes in an optimal way?
The optics/front-end stuff would be fairly simple, probably a few dozen
tubes. But the error correction, MPEG decoding, and video output could
eat up thousands of tubes, even excluding the multi-MB memory. You
could use core memory instead of SRAM or DRAM for that.
--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html
Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the feedback form on the S.E.R FAQ Web sites.
How do you want to implement it? Replace each transistor or diode with
a vacuum tube? Or redesign it to use vacuum tubes in an optimal way?
The optics/front-end stuff would be fairly simple, probably a few dozen
tubes. But the error correction, MPEG decoding, and video output could
eat up thousands of tubes, even excluding the multi-MB memory. You
could use core memory instead of SRAM or DRAM for that.
--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Site Info: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html
Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the feedback form on the S.E.R FAQ Web sites.
D
Doc
Guest
"David" <dkuhajda@locl.net.spam> wrote in message
news:407e043b@news.greennet.net...
news:407e043b@news.greennet.net...
And about as dependable as an Italian sports car from the 60's.
E
exray
Guest
Doc wrote:
It was 10 feet tall, occupied 1,000 square feet of floor- space, weighed
in at approximately 30 tons, and used more than 70,000 resistors, 10,000
capacitors, 6,000 switches, and 18,000 vacuum tubes. The final machine
required 150 kilowatts of power, which was enough to light a small town.
One of the greatest problems with computers built from vacuum tubes was
reliability; 90% of ENIAC's down-time was attributed to locating and
replacing burnt-out tubes. Records from 1952 show that approximately
19,000 vacuum tubes had to be replaced in that year alone, which
averages out to about 50 tubes a day!
Ah, the good old days.
-Bill M
Re the ENIAC computer...which btw had no CD drive...
It was 10 feet tall, occupied 1,000 square feet of floor- space, weighed
in at approximately 30 tons, and used more than 70,000 resistors, 10,000
capacitors, 6,000 switches, and 18,000 vacuum tubes. The final machine
required 150 kilowatts of power, which was enough to light a small town.
One of the greatest problems with computers built from vacuum tubes was
reliability; 90% of ENIAC's down-time was attributed to locating and
replacing burnt-out tubes. Records from 1952 show that approximately
19,000 vacuum tubes had to be replaced in that year alone, which
averages out to about 50 tubes a day!
Ah, the good old days.
-Bill M
K
Ken Weitzel
Guest
Sam Goldwasser wrote:
even selenium's haven't been around all that long...
If it's an at-all-good reference, I worked for a
Canadian television network when the first Ampex
VTR arrived in Canada. I think, if you had an
average 1200 sq foot house, you might get it in,
but would have to move your family out.
That's including the basement!
Took two strong young fellows to pick up a
15 minute reel of tape
I can go back further though. I remember
when the radio station which became a tv station
which became the network getting the first
wonderful new invention called a wire recorder
No more soft cuts
Take care.
Ken
Hey, go waaay back, silicon diodes are relatively new,goodguyy@webtv.net (Ken G.) writes:
A DVD player made with vacum tubes .
How do you want to implement it? Replace each transistor or diode with
a vacuum tube? Or redesign it to use vacuum tubes in an optimal way?
The optics/front-end stuff would be fairly simple, probably a few dozen
tubes. But the error correction, MPEG decoding, and video output could
eat up thousands of tubes, even excluding the multi-MB memory. You
could use core memory instead of SRAM or DRAM for that.
even selenium's haven't been around all that long...
If it's an at-all-good reference, I worked for a
Canadian television network when the first Ampex
VTR arrived in Canada. I think, if you had an
average 1200 sq foot house, you might get it in,
but would have to move your family out.
That's including the basement!
Took two strong young fellows to pick up a
15 minute reel of tape
I can go back further though. I remember
when the radio station which became a tv station
which became the network getting the first
wonderful new invention called a wire recorder
No more soft cuts
Take care.
Ken
K
Ken Weitzel
Guest
exray wrote:
Brought back another memory...
Should have mentioned in the previous message that one
full time technician/tube jockey's job was simply going
up and down the racks replacing tubes. Mostly 6AL5's.
(diodes, or perhaps dual diodes, can't recall). He
worked in dim light, wandering up and down the racks
looking for no filaments
And I guess we both lapsed in remembering the
enormous heat load!
Take care.
Ken
Hi...
Brought back another memory...
Should have mentioned in the previous message that one
full time technician/tube jockey's job was simply going
up and down the racks replacing tubes. Mostly 6AL5's.
(diodes, or perhaps dual diodes, can't recall). He
worked in dim light, wandering up and down the racks
looking for no filaments
And I guess we both lapsed in remembering the
enormous heat load!
Take care.
Ken
L
LASERandDVDfan
Guest
Depends on what part of the player you would want to have vaccum tubes in the
player. Plus, you'd need a power supply designed to supply the necessary power
to drive electron tubes.
The only thing that vaccum tubes might be a benefit is with the analogue audio
outputs. Of course, this benefit becomes pointless if you use the digital
outputs instead of the analogue outputs. Tubes may not be ideal for dealing
with video signal outputs. Also, implementing vaccum tubes for all the
computerized functions would be totally impractical.
Ignoring all the negative factors and having vaccum tubes used in place of all
transistors, including all integrated circuits, processors, and LSI chips, the
player would be HUGE and it might not even work reliably, if at all. You have
to remember that a DVD player is essentially an application-specific custom
made computer built to deal with rendering video and audio from the disc from
block-sector form to a usable form instantly, consistently, and in a precisely
controlled manner. - Reinhart
J
Jerry G.
Guest
You forgot that they used a lot of triode tubes as well. I forgot the
number types.
--
Greetings,
Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================
"Ken Weitzel" <kweitzel@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:zCmfc.116682$Pk3.40574@pd7tw1no...
exray wrote:
Brought back another memory...
Should have mentioned in the previous message that one
full time technician/tube jockey's job was simply going
up and down the racks replacing tubes. Mostly 6AL5's.
(diodes, or perhaps dual diodes, can't recall). He
worked in dim light, wandering up and down the racks
looking for no filaments
And I guess we both lapsed in remembering the
enormous heat load!
Take care.
Ken
number types.
--
Greetings,
Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================
"Ken Weitzel" <kweitzel@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:zCmfc.116682$Pk3.40574@pd7tw1no...
exray wrote:
Hi...
Brought back another memory...
Should have mentioned in the previous message that one
full time technician/tube jockey's job was simply going
up and down the racks replacing tubes. Mostly 6AL5's.
(diodes, or perhaps dual diodes, can't recall). He
worked in dim light, wandering up and down the racks
looking for no filaments
And I guess we both lapsed in remembering the
enormous heat load!
Take care.
Ken
J
Jerry G.
Guest
I worked on those early machines. I was involved with the early generation
of the solid state machines. In the basement they had the old tube type
VTR's destined for scrap. The models I was familiar with were the AVR1 and
the AVR2. There was another model that we had, that I cannot remember the
exact model number. This is about 30 years ago!
These machines were using tape reels that were 2 inches wide, and about 14
inches in diameter. I think the reels weighed in at a wapping 10 to 15 lbs.
The heads were on air bearing assemblies. There were air pumps for each
machine. I remember we were always sending out the heads to get them
rebuilt.
This generation of VTR was not very stable, and maintenance was almost daily
on each machine. When the operator started up on his shift, he had to go
through the set-up of the tracking and levels, or the picture would be
unstable or have banding (bands in the picture). Infact, these machines were
so unstable, that they had to be set-up every 3 to 5 hours during the coarse
of the day. VTR's didn't get very stable until they started to use computer
logics in them that could keep the alignment to track according to the
technical set-up from the master standards tape. Along with this, there had
to be many improvements starting from the design of the mechanics, through
to the electronics. These early generation of VTR machines were very
expensive to maintain, and to operate. For the maintenance of 14 machines
there was a staff of 18 service technicians sharing 3 shifts over 24 hours
with overlaps in their schedules.
Ampex, during the mid 70's came out with a slow-motion machine. This machine
used a very early generation of hard disk technology, and was able to store
up to 1 minute of video. The idea was for it to be able to do instant
freezes of video motion. It was a complex machine that was 5 feet high, and
was 24 X 24 inches square. They put it on wheels, so it can be easily
transported for remote broadcasts. It was intended for sports events. For
carrying it, it was able to be broken down in to sections that all
interconnected to each other, after re-assembly. Each section required 2
very strong men to lift. The maintenance on this machine was very high.
In this machine, the video stored on the hard disk was analog, not digital.
It did however have a monolithic computer to control it, and to assist to
keep it to be as stable as possible. The disk drive unit was an opened
platter type, where the disk plate was changeable by the technician. I
believe it had 1 large disk with 2 heads. One head was for the upper side of
the platter, and the other head for the lower side of the platter. The disk
diameter was 14 inches, and was 1/4 inch thick. It spun at a ripping 4400
RPM. This is fast for a 14 inch platter that weighed about 5 lbs. When
changing the disk platter, the tech could take a full day to do the tracking
alignment of it. If this machine ran for more than 48 hours without
maintenance, it would be unusual.
If this machine was moved or bumped during the operation, the disk could be
scrapped. It was considered a very exotic machine, and was very expensive to
purchase and then to maintain.
--
Greetings,
Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================
"Ken Weitzel" <kweitzel@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Aqmfc.121903$Ig.100107@pd7tw2no...
Sam Goldwasser wrote:
even selenium's haven't been around all that long...
If it's an at-all-good reference, I worked for a
Canadian television network when the first Ampex
VTR arrived in Canada. I think, if you had an
average 1200 sq foot house, you might get it in,
but would have to move your family out.
That's including the basement!
Took two strong young fellows to pick up a
15 minute reel of tape
I can go back further though. I remember
when the radio station which became a tv station
which became the network getting the first
wonderful new invention called a wire recorder
No more soft cuts
Take care.
Ken
of the solid state machines. In the basement they had the old tube type
VTR's destined for scrap. The models I was familiar with were the AVR1 and
the AVR2. There was another model that we had, that I cannot remember the
exact model number. This is about 30 years ago!
These machines were using tape reels that were 2 inches wide, and about 14
inches in diameter. I think the reels weighed in at a wapping 10 to 15 lbs.
The heads were on air bearing assemblies. There were air pumps for each
machine. I remember we were always sending out the heads to get them
rebuilt.
This generation of VTR was not very stable, and maintenance was almost daily
on each machine. When the operator started up on his shift, he had to go
through the set-up of the tracking and levels, or the picture would be
unstable or have banding (bands in the picture). Infact, these machines were
so unstable, that they had to be set-up every 3 to 5 hours during the coarse
of the day. VTR's didn't get very stable until they started to use computer
logics in them that could keep the alignment to track according to the
technical set-up from the master standards tape. Along with this, there had
to be many improvements starting from the design of the mechanics, through
to the electronics. These early generation of VTR machines were very
expensive to maintain, and to operate. For the maintenance of 14 machines
there was a staff of 18 service technicians sharing 3 shifts over 24 hours
with overlaps in their schedules.
Ampex, during the mid 70's came out with a slow-motion machine. This machine
used a very early generation of hard disk technology, and was able to store
up to 1 minute of video. The idea was for it to be able to do instant
freezes of video motion. It was a complex machine that was 5 feet high, and
was 24 X 24 inches square. They put it on wheels, so it can be easily
transported for remote broadcasts. It was intended for sports events. For
carrying it, it was able to be broken down in to sections that all
interconnected to each other, after re-assembly. Each section required 2
very strong men to lift. The maintenance on this machine was very high.
In this machine, the video stored on the hard disk was analog, not digital.
It did however have a monolithic computer to control it, and to assist to
keep it to be as stable as possible. The disk drive unit was an opened
platter type, where the disk plate was changeable by the technician. I
believe it had 1 large disk with 2 heads. One head was for the upper side of
the platter, and the other head for the lower side of the platter. The disk
diameter was 14 inches, and was 1/4 inch thick. It spun at a ripping 4400
RPM. This is fast for a 14 inch platter that weighed about 5 lbs. When
changing the disk platter, the tech could take a full day to do the tracking
alignment of it. If this machine ran for more than 48 hours without
maintenance, it would be unusual.
If this machine was moved or bumped during the operation, the disk could be
scrapped. It was considered a very exotic machine, and was very expensive to
purchase and then to maintain.
--
Greetings,
Jerry Greenberg GLG Technologies GLG
=========================================
WebPage http://www.zoom-one.com
Electronics http://www.zoom-one.com/electron.htm
=========================================
"Ken Weitzel" <kweitzel@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Aqmfc.121903$Ig.100107@pd7tw2no...
Sam Goldwasser wrote:
Hey, go waaay back, silicon diodes are relatively new,goodguyy@webtv.net (Ken G.) writes:
A DVD player made with vacum tubes .
How do you want to implement it? Replace each transistor or diode with
a vacuum tube? Or redesign it to use vacuum tubes in an optimal way?
The optics/front-end stuff would be fairly simple, probably a few dozen
tubes. But the error correction, MPEG decoding, and video output could
eat up thousands of tubes, even excluding the multi-MB memory. You
could use core memory instead of SRAM or DRAM for that.
even selenium's haven't been around all that long...
If it's an at-all-good reference, I worked for a
Canadian television network when the first Ampex
VTR arrived in Canada. I think, if you had an
average 1200 sq foot house, you might get it in,
but would have to move your family out.
That's including the basement!
Took two strong young fellows to pick up a
15 minute reel of tape
I can go back further though. I remember
when the radio station which became a tv station
which became the network getting the first
wonderful new invention called a wire recorder
No more soft cuts
Take care.
Ken
P
Peter van Merkerk
Guest
Enormous, a several orders of magnitude bigger than the Eniac. And because
its size the circuits would probably not be fast enough to be able to
process the datastream from DVD discs at normal playback speed.
--
Peter van Merkerk
peter.van.merkerk(at)dse.nl
P
Peter van Merkerk
Guest
In terms of processing power and memory capacity the ENIAC would have been
completely dwarfed by the microcontroller and RAM memory found in every
CD-ROM drive.
--
Peter van Merkerk
peter.van.merkerk(at)dse.nl
G
Goran Larsson
Guest
In article <20040414225306.17648.00000321@mb-m20.aol.com>,
LASERandDVDfan <laseranddvdfan@aol.com> wrote:
--
Göran Larsson http://www.mitt-eget.com/
LASERandDVDfan <laseranddvdfan@aol.com> wrote:
Why?
--
Göran Larsson http://www.mitt-eget.com/
A
Asimov
Guest
"Jerry G." bravely wrote to "All" (15 Apr 04 02:52:13)
--- on the heady topic of "Re: How big would a tube dvd player be"
JG> From: "Jerry G." <jerryg50@hotmail.com>
JG> You forgot that they used a lot of triode tubes as well. I forgot the
JG> number types.
.... I remember the 6SN7...
--- on the heady topic of "Re: How big would a tube dvd player be"
JG> From: "Jerry G." <jerryg50@hotmail.com>
JG> You forgot that they used a lot of triode tubes as well. I forgot the
JG> number types.
.... I remember the 6SN7...
A
Andy Cuffe
Guest
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 10:45:58 +0200, "Peter van Merkerk"
<merkerk@deadspam.com> wrote:
The size problem is one thing that would be impossible to overcome.
One of the main reasons modern computers are so much faster is because
they are much smaller. The speed of electricity is a major factor in
determining the speed of a computer. Even with discrete transistors
capable of operating in the GHz range, the speed would be limited to
maybe a few MHz by the length of the wires needed to connect
everything.
Andy Cuffe
baltimora@psu.edu
<merkerk@deadspam.com> wrote:
The size problem is one thing that would be impossible to overcome.
One of the main reasons modern computers are so much faster is because
they are much smaller. The speed of electricity is a major factor in
determining the speed of a computer. Even with discrete transistors
capable of operating in the GHz range, the speed would be limited to
maybe a few MHz by the length of the wires needed to connect
everything.
Andy Cuffe
baltimora@psu.edu
C
Chaos Master
Guest
Goran Larsson [hoh@invalid.invalid] spits:
[]s
--
_____ ___ Chaos MasterŽ
|\/\/\| Posting from Brazil
|/\/\/| MSN: wizard_of_yendor at hotmail.com
___|_____| irc.brasnet.org #XLinuxNews #POA
Audiophile (read audiophool) stuff, methinks?
[]s
--
_____ ___ Chaos MasterŽ
|\/\/\| Posting from Brazil
|/\/\/| MSN: wizard_of_yendor at hotmail.com
___|_____| irc.brasnet.org #XLinuxNews #POA
A
Asimov
Guest
"Andy Cuffe" bravely wrote to "All" (15 Apr 04 12:53:51)
--- on the heady topic of "Re: How big would a tube dvd player be"
AC> From: Andy Cuffe <baltimora@psu.edu>
AC> Xref: aeinews sci.electronics.repair:25802
AC> On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 10:45:58 +0200, "Peter van Merkerk"
AC> <merkerk@deadspam.com> wrote:
AC> The size problem is one thing that would be impossible to overcome.
AC> One of the main reasons modern computers are so much faster is because
AC> they are much smaller. The speed of electricity is a major factor in
AC> determining the speed of a computer. Even with discrete transistors
AC> capable of operating in the GHz range, the speed would be limited to
AC> maybe a few MHz by the length of the wires needed to connect
AC> everything.
AC> Andy Cuffe
AC> baltimora@psu.edu
There is always pie in the sky stuff of which I can think of a couple
of examples. A really fast 1 bit tube computer could be used to
generate a virtual holographic photonic computer?
(i.e. TOS crew member in red uniform gets vaporized by laser beam!)
More down to earth is that tubes today can benefit from the same
modern microminiaturization technology as IC's. One huge benefit of
using the same lithographic methods is that cathodes can be built up
so sharp that they don't require a heat source to achieve electron
emission at the nanometer distances involved. Effectively a solid
state version of a tube. One can thus pack not that much less density
of tubes as with transistors. I think effectively it might be hard to
tell one from the other, both physically and performance wise!
If you look under the hood DVD's are mostly empty space as is...
So I must disagree and state that a DVD player using this type of
nanotechnology tubes could be just about the same size as IC types.
Asimov
******
.... I worked hard to attach the electrodes to it.
--- on the heady topic of "Re: How big would a tube dvd player be"
AC> From: Andy Cuffe <baltimora@psu.edu>
AC> Xref: aeinews sci.electronics.repair:25802
AC> On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 10:45:58 +0200, "Peter van Merkerk"
AC> <merkerk@deadspam.com> wrote:
AC> The size problem is one thing that would be impossible to overcome.
AC> One of the main reasons modern computers are so much faster is because
AC> they are much smaller. The speed of electricity is a major factor in
AC> determining the speed of a computer. Even with discrete transistors
AC> capable of operating in the GHz range, the speed would be limited to
AC> maybe a few MHz by the length of the wires needed to connect
AC> everything.
AC> Andy Cuffe
AC> baltimora@psu.edu
There is always pie in the sky stuff of which I can think of a couple
of examples. A really fast 1 bit tube computer could be used to
generate a virtual holographic photonic computer?
(i.e. TOS crew member in red uniform gets vaporized by laser beam!)
More down to earth is that tubes today can benefit from the same
modern microminiaturization technology as IC's. One huge benefit of
using the same lithographic methods is that cathodes can be built up
so sharp that they don't require a heat source to achieve electron
emission at the nanometer distances involved. Effectively a solid
state version of a tube. One can thus pack not that much less density
of tubes as with transistors. I think effectively it might be hard to
tell one from the other, both physically and performance wise!
If you look under the hood DVD's are mostly empty space as is...
So I must disagree and state that a DVD player using this type of
nanotechnology tubes could be just about the same size as IC types.
Asimov
******
.... I worked hard to attach the electrodes to it.
J
James Sweet
Guest
"LASERandDVDfan" <laseranddvdfan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040414225306.17648.00000321@mb-m20.aol.com...
hypothetical question. I find it fascinating to think just how much can be
packed into such a small place compared to early technology.
news:20040414225306.17648.00000321@mb-m20.aol.com...
I don't think he was thinking of seriously building one, it was just a
hypothetical question. I find it fascinating to think just how much can be
packed into such a small place compared to early technology.
P
Peter van Merkerk
Guest
"Asimov" <Asimov@-removethis-bbs.juxtaposition.dynip.com> wrote in message
news:MSGID_1=3a167=2f133.0_407f4bef@fidonet.org...
ones you would find in pre-transistor era television sets or maybe those
small ones found in early portable radios. I'm not sure that what you are
talking about would even qualify as a "tube".
--
Peter van Merkerk
peter.van.merkerk(at)dse.nl
news:MSGID_1=3a167=2f133.0_407f4bef@fidonet.org...
I (and probably the OP too) was thinking about traditional tubes, like the
ones you would find in pre-transistor era television sets or maybe those
small ones found in early portable radios. I'm not sure that what you are
talking about would even qualify as a "tube".
--
Peter van Merkerk
peter.van.merkerk(at)dse.nl
L
LASERandDVDfan
Guest
To get that warm sound. There is a benefit of getting even-ordered harmonic
distortion, but that would be at the cost of accuracy of the sound. It would
also end up being pointless if only the digital outputs were used.
I do agree with your questioning my suggestion. I feel that the use of
electron tubes is nothing more than a gimmicky novelty designed to get more
money out of "audiophools." There's hardly anything that tubes can excel at
over solid state. - Reinhart