house wiring wrong colour codes nearly got me

[matt2-amstereo]

I live in a house built about 20years ago, Yesterday i decided that the
BC light fitting had to be changed in the kitchen The existing light
output is dismal even with a daylight CF.

So i changed it for a 4' fluro. the wiring in this house uses a
standalone earth cable (2core red/black for power and single lead beside
it for ground) so i unscrewed the BC holder, screwed the 4' up and wired
it up with red (which had 2 leads) to brown, black to blue and
standalone black to ground, all was good, re-set the breaker and the
light came on even tho the switch was OFF. thought this was strange, so
pulled the tube out to shut light off over night, come this morning, i
sought out to investigate what was going on.. I removed the switch from
the wall, this is where i discovered, THEY USED BLACK AS THE ACTIVE
SWITCHED.... this is a single switch fitting.

what i had was active switched to the shell of the fitting, neutral to
its spot and the red pair on active.

Im surprised that the shell didnt arc out or do anything nasty, and that
the house used BLACK as an active,... good thing we have fast acting
breakers, thats all i can say.....

Is it normal for black to be used with active power?

 

[matt2-amstereo]

the other thing that amazes me is the fact that a 4' can work without an
earth, some were i read that balasted fittings needed an earth to
actually work in the first place.... guess they may have been wrong

 

[Terry Collins]

Poxy wrote:

I thought the convention was that power is run to the fitting, the neutral
and earth connected and the active run to the switch and back. If the power
is at the switch perhaps it wasn't a professional installation?

That is what I mostly find, but 50% also use twin core with red as
active to the switch and black as the switched active back to the light
fitting. Shudder.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2006-01-08, matt2-amstereo <amstereoAToptusnetDOTcomDOTa@u> wrote:

the other thing that amazes me is the fact that a 4' can work without an
earth, some were i read that balasted fittings needed an earth to
actually work in the first place.... guess they may have been wrong

nothing needs an earth to work...
it's there for your protection.
it needs an earth to meet regulations.

Bye.
Jasen

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2006-01-08, Poxy <pox@poxmail.com> wrote:

matt2-amstereo wrote:
I live in a house built about 20years ago, Yesterday i decided that
the BC light fitting had to be changed in the kitchen The existing
light output is dismal even with a daylight CF.

So i changed it for a 4' fluro. the wiring in this house uses a
standalone earth cable (2core red/black for power and single lead
beside it for ground) so i unscrewed the BC holder, screwed the 4' up
and wired it up with red (which had 2 leads) to brown, black to blue
and standalone black to ground, all was good, re-set the breaker and
the light came on even tho the switch was OFF. thought this was
strange, so pulled the tube out to shut light off over night, come
this morning, i sought out to investigate what was going on.. I
removed the switch from the wall, this is where i discovered, THEY
USED BLACK AS THE ACTIVE SWITCHED.... this is a single switch fitting.

what i had was active switched to the shell of the fitting, neutral to
its spot and the red pair on active.

Im surprised that the shell didnt arc out or do anything nasty, and
that the house used BLACK as an active,... good thing we have fast
acting breakers, thats all i can say.....

Is it normal for black to be used with active power?

I thought the convention was that power is run to the fitting, the neutral
and earth connected and the active run to the switch and back. If the power
is at the switch perhaps it wasn't a professional installation?

There's no such rule.

power is typically run to whichever is closer to the fusebox and a branch run
to the light or the switch.

highly possible that it wasn't professional though.

Bye.
Jasen

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"The Real Andy" <will_get_back_to_you_on_This@> wrote in message
news:tb64s1tohv8lvl4nh73rp6sghiccmq3olg@4ax.com...

On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:40:30 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:


"matt2-amstereo" <amstereoAToptusnetDOTcomDOTa@u> wrote in message
news:43c1003c$0$18201$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
I live in a house built about 20years ago, Yesterday i decided that the
BC
light fitting had to be changed in the kitchen The existing light output
is
dismal even with a daylight CF.

So i changed it for a 4' fluro. the wiring in this house uses a
standalone
earth cable (2core red/black for power and single lead beside it for
ground) so i unscrewed the BC holder, screwed the 4' up and wired it up
with red (which had 2 leads) to brown, black to blue and standalone
black
to ground, all was good, re-set the breaker and the light came on even
tho
the switch was OFF. thought this was strange, so pulled the tube out to
shut light off over night, come this morning, i sought out to
investigate
what was going on.. I removed the switch from the wall, this is where i
discovered, THEY USED BLACK AS THE ACTIVE SWITCHED.... this is a single
switch fitting.

what i had was active switched to the shell of the fitting, neutral to
its
spot and the red pair on active.

Im surprised that the shell didnt arc out or do anything nasty, and that
the house used BLACK as an active,... good thing we have fast acting
breakers, thats all i can say.....

Is it normal for black to be used with active power?

**You're an idiot and you live in QLD, right?

Gee, thats a bit harsh.

**Harsh? Get real. Only a complete idiot would wire up anything, without
checking the wiring first.

This is actually quite common, and not just

here in QLD.

**It has been traditionally more common in QLD, due to lower standards.

There's a reason why those people who don't know what they're doing use
properly qualified people. Then there's the dead ones. They're the idiots.
Sadly, in QLD, the standards for electricians is (or was) so low, that
many
problems occurred.


My guess is that it was wired the traditional way, then a second light
fixure was wired into the switch at a later date.

**Perhaps. He is still a moron. If he had no clue about what he was doing,
he should employ someone who does. If the gearbox in my car goes belly up, I
would not pull it out and then complain because I could not get it back
together again. I would employ a professional to do the job.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[matt2-amstereo]

its all good, i worked out what the problem was, just didn't expect that
they'd use black to carry active....

as far as using or not using earth, certain types of fluro fittings
wouldn't correctly fire each time, but i dont believe that has anything
to do with pre-heat type ballasted fittings.

this is an ex RAFF house, maybe theres the explaination?

 

[John G]

"The Real Andy" <will_get_back_to_you_on_This@> wrote in message
news:7o64s1p2on6o0fcmcr8ndhk58h8cb6jm4o@4ax.com...

On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 06:27:28 -0000, Jasen Betts
jasen@free.net.nospam.nz> wrote:

On 2006-01-08, matt2-amstereo <amstereoAToptusnetDOTcomDOTa@u> wrote:
the other thing that amazes me is the fact that a 4' can work
without an
earth, some were i read that balasted fittings needed an earth to
actually work in the first place.... guess they may have been wrong

nothing needs an earth to work...
it's there for your protection.
it needs an earth to meet regulations.


From memory, a light fixture needs no earth. Is a flouro batten any
different? There may be something to do with the hight of the fixture
too. I did once know all the SAA rules, but they are long gone. I
remember throwing away the book about 3 or 4 houses ago!

I think you will find an EARTH must be carried to every light fitting
whether or not it is metallic so that it is there if there is a change
later.
Someone who needs to know Australian Regs could confirm.
I am just an old radar tech who tries to stay aware of these things for
my own good.

Some flouros were temperamental if the frame was not earthed but that
was to do with striking the "arc" inside.
--
John G

Wot's Your Real Problem?

 

[matt2-amstereo]

thats what confused me, everything i've ever learned previously was
wrong in this case. I have learned somthing tho, check the light switch
first

 

[matt2-amstereo]

thats what got me, cause i knew there SHOULD be one, and the single
black lead (not paired) resembled the other earth leads here.

the fitting is fitted with a solid state starter (blue units) that start
a tube in 2 seconds, it replaced a stock BC fitting that had a daylight
CF installed, the light quality is SO much better, well worth the
learning experience, which is, don't trust anyone else's work

 

[Ken Taylor]

matt2-amstereo wrote:

its all good, i worked out what the problem was, just didn't expect that
they'd use black to carry active....

as far as using or not using earth, certain types of fluro fittings
wouldn't correctly fire each time, but i dont believe that has anything
to do with pre-heat type ballasted fittings.

this is an ex RAFF house, maybe theres the explaination?
Yeah, don't trust the riff-raff. Trust RAAF though.

Cheers.

Ken

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2006-01-09, Poxy <pox@poxmail.com> wrote:

Terry Collins wrote:
Poxy wrote:

I thought the convention was that power is run to the fitting, the
neutral and earth connected and the active run to the switch and
back. If the power is at the switch perhaps it wasn't a professional
installation?

That is what I mostly find, but 50% also use twin core with red as
active to the switch and black as the switched active back to the
light fitting. Shudder.

That's actually what I meant - the run to the switch and back is twin-core,
often red and white - isn't this how it's meant to be done? Is there some
convention as to which wire is meant to carry the active to the switch?

If you look at the standard it'll say red and white for loops to switches.
red for active white for switched.

I think the red-back for switces thing comes from before that standard.

There's also blue used sometimes, I think blue is an "extra white"
(eg for a ceiling fan).




--

Bye.
Jasen

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2006-01-09, The Real Andy <will_get_back_to_you_on_This@> wrote:

On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 06:27:28 -0000, Jasen Betts
jasen@free.net.nospam.nz> wrote:

On 2006-01-08, matt2-amstereo <amstereoAToptusnetDOTcomDOTa@u> wrote:
the other thing that amazes me is the fact that a 4' can work without an
earth, some were i read that balasted fittings needed an earth to
actually work in the first place.... guess they may have been wrong

nothing needs an earth to work...
it's there for your protection.
it needs an earth to meet regulations.


From memory, a light fixture needs no earth. Is a flouro batten any
different?

yep. that metal case may have something to do with it.
if the ballast failed with a short to the case it could be nasty.

Bye.
Jasen

 

[Agent \" 86 \" Ž]

"matt2-amstereo" <amstereoAToptusnetDOTcomDOTa@u> wrote in message
news:43c2405e$0$9138$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

its all good, i worked out what the problem was, just didn't expect that
they'd use black to carry active....

as far as using or not using earth, certain types of fluro fittings
wouldn't correctly fire each time, but i dont believe that has anything
to do with pre-heat type ballasted fittings.

this is an ex RAFF house, maybe theres the explaination?

Are you in IPSWICH ?

 

[Agent \" 86 \" Ž]

"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:43c22a51@news.comindico.com.au...

"The Real Andy" <will_get_back_to_you_on_This@> wrote in message
news:tb64s1tohv8lvl4nh73rp6sghiccmq3olg@4ax.com...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:40:30 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:


"matt2-amstereo" <amstereoAToptusnetDOTcomDOTa@u> wrote in message
news:43c1003c$0$18201$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
I live in a house built about 20years ago, Yesterday i decided that the
BC
light fitting had to be changed in the kitchen The existing light
output
is
dismal even with a daylight CF.

So i changed it for a 4' fluro. the wiring in this house uses a
standalone
earth cable (2core red/black for power and single lead beside it for
ground) so i unscrewed the BC holder, screwed the 4' up and wired it
up
with red (which had 2 leads) to brown, black to blue and standalone
black
to ground, all was good, re-set the breaker and the light came on even
tho
the switch was OFF. thought this was strange, so pulled the tube out
to
shut light off over night, come this morning, i sought out to
investigate
what was going on.. I removed the switch from the wall, this is where
i
discovered, THEY USED BLACK AS THE ACTIVE SWITCHED.... this is a
single
switch fitting.

what i had was active switched to the shell of the fitting, neutral to
its
spot and the red pair on active.

Im surprised that the shell didnt arc out or do anything nasty, and
that
the house used BLACK as an active,... good thing we have fast acting
breakers, thats all i can say.....

Is it normal for black to be used with active power?

**You're an idiot and you live in QLD, right?

Gee, thats a bit harsh.

**Harsh? Get real. Only a complete idiot would wire up anything, without
checking the wiring first.

This is actually quite common, and not just
here in QLD.

**It has been traditionally more common in QLD, due to lower standards.

Stick to speaker wiring .

That is utter rubbish . ALL states use the AS3000 for wiring standards .

As far as AC goes both the active and neutral are the same and should be
treated as such . If a neutral conductor is not connected properly and its
under load * essentially * its alive . Always treat every wire as
potentially alive .

There's a reason why those people who don't know what they're doing use
properly qualified people. Then there's the dead ones. They're the
idiots.
Sadly, in QLD, the standards for electricians is (or was) so low, that
many
problems occurred.


My guess is that it was wired the traditional way, then a second light
fixure was wired into the switch at a later date.

**Perhaps. He is still a moron. If he had no clue about what he was doing,
he should employ someone who does. If the gearbox in my car goes belly up,
I
would not pull it out and then complain because I could not get it back
together again. I would employ a professional to do the job.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"Agent " 86 " Ž" <M.Smart@control.com> wrote in message
news:Fy_wf.213318$V7.127628@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"Trevor Wilson" <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:43c22a51@news.comindico.com.au...

"The Real Andy" <will_get_back_to_you_on_This@> wrote in message
news:tb64s1tohv8lvl4nh73rp6sghiccmq3olg@4ax.com...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:40:30 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:


"matt2-amstereo" <amstereoAToptusnetDOTcomDOTa@u> wrote in message
news:43c1003c$0$18201$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
I live in a house built about 20years ago, Yesterday i decided that
the
BC
light fitting had to be changed in the kitchen The existing light
output
is
dismal even with a daylight CF.

So i changed it for a 4' fluro. the wiring in this house uses a
standalone
earth cable (2core red/black for power and single lead beside it for
ground) so i unscrewed the BC holder, screwed the 4' up and wired it
up
with red (which had 2 leads) to brown, black to blue and standalone
black
to ground, all was good, re-set the breaker and the light came on
even
tho
the switch was OFF. thought this was strange, so pulled the tube out
to
shut light off over night, come this morning, i sought out to
investigate
what was going on.. I removed the switch from the wall, this is where
i
discovered, THEY USED BLACK AS THE ACTIVE SWITCHED.... this is a
single
switch fitting.

what i had was active switched to the shell of the fitting, neutral
to
its
spot and the red pair on active.

Im surprised that the shell didnt arc out or do anything nasty, and
that
the house used BLACK as an active,... good thing we have fast acting
breakers, thats all i can say.....

Is it normal for black to be used with active power?

**You're an idiot and you live in QLD, right?

Gee, thats a bit harsh.

**Harsh? Get real. Only a complete idiot would wire up anything, without
checking the wiring first.

This is actually quite common, and not just
here in QLD.

**It has been traditionally more common in QLD, due to lower standards.

Stick to speaker wiring .

That is utter rubbish . ALL states use the AS3000 for wiring standards .

**Yep, they sure do. Electrician training standards are (or were) lower in
QLD. I'll bet Matt lives in QLD.

As far as AC goes both the active and neutral are the same and should be
treated as such . If a neutral conductor is not connected properly and its
under load * essentially * its alive . Always treat every wire as
potentially alive .

**Which is why Matt is such an idiot. EVERY person involved with electrical
appliances knows this fact all too well.



--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Dave]

If you look at the standard it'll say red and white for loops to switches.
red for active white for switched.

I think the red-back for switces thing comes from before that standard.

There's also blue used sometimes, I think blue is an "extra white"
(eg for a ceiling fan).

Here is an extract from AS/NZS3018:2001 - this is the standard for domestic
installations:
//
6.5 DISTINGUISHING COLOURS OF CABLES
The colours of cores of cables used for final subcircuits shall be as
follows:
(a) Active conductors ............................... red, white or blue.
(b) Neutral conductors ............................. black.
(c) Earthing conductors............................ green and yellow
combination.
Coloured identification at each termination may be used in accordance with
Clause 3.4.1. Green/yellow, green or yellow colour insulated conductors
shall not be
sleeved to indicate live conductors.
//

This is from AS/NZS3000:

//
3.8 IDENTIFICATION
3.8.1 General
In general, insulated conductors shall be identified by the colours given in
Table 3.5 to indicate their intended function (such as active, neutral and
earth/equipotential bonding conductor).
Where a combination such as green/yellow is used, one colour shall cover
not less than 30% and not more than 70% of the surface, with the other
colour covering the remainder of the surface.

TABLE 3.5 COLOURS OF CABLE CORES
Identifying colours....Function............Recommended Alternative

Earth/bonding..........Green/yellow......Green (see Note)
Neutral.................... Black................Light blue
Active......................Red...................Any colour except
green/yellow,
..........................................................green, yellow,
black, light blue

NOTE: Where a required earthing conductor is not normally manufactured, a
suitable
insulated conductor may be used but shall be identified along its entire
length by a
green coloured sleeving.
//

In my experience I have found a lot of electricians do wire fan and/or light
switches
with plain "twin+earth" and use the black to carry the switched active back
to the
fitting and the green/yellow (earth) is not connected. This is now illegal
and possibly
dangerous (to work on) and unfortunately still quite commonly occuring.

Sometimes there is a piece of red, white or blue coloured tape wrapped
around the
black wire near the terminations - once upon a time this might have been
acceptable
but the standards are now pretty clear on insulation colours.

 

[matt2-amstereo]

Agent " 86 " Ž wrote:

"matt2-amstereo" <amstereoAToptusnetDOTcomDOTa@u> wrote in message
news:43c2405e$0$9138$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
its all good, i worked out what the problem was, just didn't expect that
they'd use black to carry active....

as far as using or not using earth, certain types of fluro fittings
wouldn't correctly fire each time, but i dont believe that has anything
to do with pre-heat type ballasted fittings.

this is an ex RAFF house, maybe theres the explaination?

Are you in IPSWICH ?


certainly am

 

[matt2-amstereo]

Agent " 86 " Ž wrote:

"matt2-amstereo" <amstereoAToptusnetDOTcomDOTa@u> wrote in message
news:43c4ca6b$0$25697$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
Agent " 86 " Ž wrote:
"matt2-amstereo" <amstereoAToptusnetDOTcomDOTa@u> wrote in message
news:43c2405e$0$9138$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
its all good, i worked out what the problem was, just didn't expect
that
they'd use black to carry active....

as far as using or not using earth, certain types of fluro fittings
wouldn't correctly fire each time, but i dont believe that has anything
to do with pre-heat type ballasted fittings.

this is an ex RAFF house, maybe theres the explaination?
Are you in IPSWICH ?


certainly am

It wouldnt be an old Queenslander ?

My guess is that its a house in Leichardt or One mile .


not quite a qld'r, close but. yeah leichhardt area. theres alot of these

houses around here.

 

[Pete]

Poxy wrote:

I thought the convention was that power is run to the fitting, the neutral
and earth connected and the active run to the switch and back.

That's the current convention, and it has been for quite some time.
However, I don't believe it was the convention 20 years ago.

Peter