Home LED Flickers

I got a 60W Equliv. LED bulb in a fixture that flickers all the time.
Its not very old. It does produce enough light but gets annoying after
awhile. They only cost a buck or two, so i'll just replace it, but I
wonder what is causing the flicker?

My guess is a cheap electrolytic in the rectifier, but I have never
really seen a schematic for how they are wired.

 

[KenW]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 18:44:03 -0600, tubeguy@myshop.com wrote:

I got a 60W Equliv. LED bulb in a fixture that flickers all the time.
Its not very old. It does produce enough light but gets annoying after
awhile. They only cost a buck or two, so i'll just replace it, but I
wonder what is causing the flicker?

My guess is a cheap electrolytic in the rectifier, but I have never
really seen a schematic for how they are wired.

A buck or two ?

 

[mike]

On 12/11/2018 4:44 PM, tubeguy@myshop.com wrote:

I got a 60W Equliv. LED bulb in a fixture that flickers all the time.
Its not very old. It does produce enough light but gets annoying after
awhile. They only cost a buck or two, so i'll just replace it, but I
wonder what is causing the flicker?

Does the fixture wire it directly to the mains or does it have some kind
of switching, wireless, touch, dimmer, anything but direct wire to the
mains?

What's your definition of flicker?
Some bulbs have noticeable flicker at line frequency.
Most flicker at a much lower rate if you put some
electronics in the middle. It's the electronics that
expects the resistive load of an incandescent that flickers.

My guess is a cheap electrolytic in the rectifier, but I have never
really seen a schematic for how they are wired.

 

[Terry Schwartz]

On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 6:44:07 PM UTC-6, tub...@myshop.com wrote:

I got a 60W Equliv. LED bulb in a fixture that flickers all the time.
Its not very old. It does produce enough light but gets annoying after
awhile. They only cost a buck or two, so i'll just replace it, but I
wonder what is causing the flicker?

My guess is a cheap electrolytic in the rectifier, but I have never
really seen a schematic for how they are wired.

I have some similar bulbs in a bathroom fixture. They flicker when the wife runs a certain curling iron on the same circuit. Is there anything else running on your lighting circuit?

 

[Jeff Layman]

On 12/12/18 00:44, tubeguy@myshop.com wrote:

I got a 60W Equliv. LED bulb in a fixture that flickers all the time.
Its not very old. It does produce enough light but gets annoying after
awhile. They only cost a buck or two, so i'll just replace it, but I
wonder what is causing the flicker?

My guess is a cheap electrolytic in the rectifier, but I have never
really seen a schematic for how they are wired.

Was the bulb holder designed for an LED or was it originally for a
filament bulb? Some of the smaller LEDs, such as G9, can overheat in a
non-ventilated holder. This can show as flickering; usually it's the
power control chip rather than the LEDs themselves which goes first. The
bulb will eventually fail.

--

Jeff

 

[Phil Allison]

tub...@myshop.com wrote:

I got a 60W Equliv.

** So about 11 watts power draw.

LED bulb in a fixture that flickers all the time.

** Try a different and newer fixture, the low current draw often requires the metal parts to be cleaner and freer of tarnish than is often the case.

My guess is a cheap electrolytic in the rectifier,

** Nuts.


..... Phil

 

On Wednesday, 12 December 2018 00:44:07 UTC, tub...@myshop.com wrote:

I got a 60W Equliv. LED bulb in a fixture that flickers all the time.
Its not very old. It does produce enough light but gets annoying after
awhile. They only cost a buck or two, so i'll just replace it, but I
wonder what is causing the flicker?

My guess is a cheap electrolytic in the rectifier, but I have never
really seen a schematic for how they are wired.

Tell us the nature of the flicker. Very fast & completely consistent would be a rectifier/smoothing issue. Irregular flicker would be a bad connection or less likely a dying LED.


NT

 

[Pat]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 18:40:21 -0700, KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:

On Tue, 11 Dec 2018 18:44:03 -0600, tubeguy@myshop.com wrote:

I got a 60W Equliv. LED bulb in a fixture that flickers all the time.
Its not very old. It does produce enough light but gets annoying after
awhile. They only cost a buck or two, so i'll just replace it, but I
wonder what is causing the flicker?

My guess is a cheap electrolytic in the rectifier, but I have never
really seen a schematic for how they are wired.

A buck or two ?
$1.77 ea at Home Depot (US Dollars)

 

KenW <ken1943@invalid.net> wrote:

> A buck or two ?

Yeah but it depends where you live.

Here in Chicago you can walk in just about anywhere and expect to pay .99
to maybe $1.49 for a 60W led standard bulb.

The reason being, the local electric company got dick slapped for rate
increases which went to executive salaries, bahama vacations and golden
parachutes instead of the "infrastructure improvements" they claimed what
they were for. After the states attorney and citizens utility board got them
to audit their books, the truth came out.

So their rates were frozen for 10 years and then for a period of time I'm
not sure of, have to subsidize the costs of energy saving devices, which led
bulbs fall under. They also pay you $50 for replacing some older appliances.

I'm not sure they still do it, haven't looked, but like Home Depot even had
a special rack for the subsidized bulbs. I though it was odd but some of
them available were 100W incandesent ones, but they only used 80W of
electric but gave out the same amount of light. Those were considered energy
saving too.

It's about the only bargain with living in Chicago these days.

-bruce
bje@ripco.com

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

I am presently managing replacement of all incandescent/fluorescent fixtures in just over 1,000,000 square feet of medical offices, research labs and a medical school on a single campus.

There are two parts of an LED lamp/fixture.

a) The LED emitters themselves: These are pretty generic beasts, and while not-quite-one-size-fits-all, the same emitter may provide light from between 3000K to 5000K. They are also pretty bullet-proof.

b) The "Driver" - which is a device that takes current from some source and makes it into what the emitters want for a particular type (Temperature and CRI) of output.

Common failure modes are:

flickering - 90% - and what you are experiencing.
Massive RF output - 5% - so massive as to even step on cell phones and blue-tooth frequencies on rare occasions, but mostly lower bands.
*POOF* on start - 5%
Sometimes more than one fault per item.

Whereas these drivers are not delicate items, they fail often enough as that such a failure should surprise no one. Our installing contractor states that failures on commercial-grade devices are somewhere between 0.25% and 2.5% depending on the country-of-origin of the drivers, and where the devices are assembled. Consumer-grade devices experience a much higher failure rate.

Most failures occur within the first 4-6 hours of use.

Keep the receipt, and return the flickering item.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

On Wednesday, 12 December 2018 13:26:18 UTC, pf...@aol.com wrote:

There are two parts of an LED lamp/fixture.

a) The LED emitters themselves: These are pretty generic beasts, and while not-quite-one-size-fits-all, the same emitter may provide light from between 3000K to 5000K. They are also pretty bullet-proof.

in excellent quality lamps maybe. Not at all bullet-proof in domestic LED lights.


NT

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 9:37:20 AM UTC-5, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, 12 December 2018 13:26:18 UTC, pf...@aol.com wrote:

There are two parts of an LED lamp/fixture.

a) The LED emitters themselves: These are pretty generic beasts, and while not-quite-one-size-fits-all, the same emitter may provide light from between 3000K to 5000K. They are also pretty bullet-proof.

in excellent quality lamps maybe. Not at all bullet-proof in domestic LED lights.

Possibly true, but the failure mode of an emitter is not flicker.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

On Wednesday, 12 December 2018 15:18:52 UTC, pf...@aol.com wrote:

On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 9:37:20 AM UTC-5, tabby wrote:
On Wednesday, 12 December 2018 13:26:18 UTC, pf...@aol.com wrote:

There are two parts of an LED lamp/fixture.

a) The LED emitters themselves: These are pretty generic beasts, and while not-quite-one-size-fits-all, the same emitter may provide light from between 3000K to 5000K. They are also pretty bullet-proof.

in excellent quality lamps maybe. Not at all bullet-proof in domestic LED lights.


Possibly true, but the failure mode of an emitter is not flicker.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

sometimes it is, but more often not.


NT

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

As an LED is a go/no-go device, flicker is indicative of a condition outside the emitter. Full stop.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

On Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:26:36 UTC, pf...@aol.com wrote:

On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 12:16:11 PM UTC-5, tabby wrote:

I know you think you're right about everything, but you're not. LEDs do sometimes go into flickering mode. You could go google if you don't believe me, it's not that hard to do.

Where does flicker come from?
To better understand flickering in lights, consider the theatrical effect known as strobe lighting. This is a deliberate flicker effect that delivers light at certain frequencies, causing the brain to interpret moving objects as if they were in slow motion. These specified frequencies are generally just a few flashes per second, but they are very close to frequencies that cause epileptic seizures.

Unintentional flickering in lighting equipment can be traced back to our power companies that designed electricity flow to use alternating current (AC) as opposed to direct current (DC). With AC power, the sine wave will peak both positively and negatively. This leaves it susceptible to being in a range that will cause flickering, or sometimes an audible hum.

How to solve LED flickering issues?
LED flickering can be tied back to the driver component within the lamp. The essential purpose of the LED driver design is to rely on a simple circuit to control output current, but without altering the frequency, the LED becomes likely to show visible flicker. However, this can be fixed by using constant current drivers, which remove the peaks of the sine wave.





Power correction components within the driver circuit must also be addressed. Without this, ripple currents in the power flow will cause flickering.

Ultimately if the driver design of the LED bulb meets the requirements of both a stable DC current and ample ripple suppression, there should be no flicker. If flickering is present in your LED lamp (and you are not dimming with it), it was likely created with cheap driver components. The technology in LED lighting has advanced to the point where this should not happen, unfortunately there are companies that care more about their bottom line than the health of their customers.

How Dimming Causes LED Flickering
Another challenging variable for LED lamps to avoid flickering is through dimming. Most standard wall dimmers work by phase cutting, which removes part of the sine wave and reduces the voltage. However, this can have negative affects on an LED circuit and actually result in the flicker effect being amplified to a potentially dangerous level (3-15Hz range).

This is one of the main reasons why it’s hard to trust old dimming systems with new LED bulbs. The only way to be sure no flickering will be present is to get LED-specific dimming solutions for your LED lamps. It all comes back to the fact that LED is a long-term investment. In turn it is worth doing research to ensure you are getting a quality LED bulb, and that if you plan to dim with it you are getting an LED dimming system that has been tested as being compatible to the LED bulbs you intend to use.
_________________________________________________________________________

Now, show us a link where the emitter is the cause of the flicker, and not the driver.

Otherwise, understand that the Bellman's Proof is not a valid argument.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Man you can be stupid. Go educate yourself. Or not.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 12:16:11 PM UTC-5, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

> I know you think you're right about everything, but you're not. LEDs do sometimes go into flickering mode. You could go google if you don't believe me, it's not that hard to do.

Where does flicker come from?
To better understand flickering in lights, consider the theatrical effect known as strobe lighting. This is a deliberate flicker effect that delivers light at certain frequencies, causing the brain to interpret moving objects as if they were in slow motion. These specified frequencies are generally just a few flashes per second, but they are very close to frequencies that cause epileptic seizures.

Unintentional flickering in lighting equipment can be traced back to our power companies that designed electricity flow to use alternating current (AC) as opposed to direct current (DC). With AC power, the sine wave will peak both positively and negatively. This leaves it susceptible to being in a range that will cause flickering, or sometimes an audible hum.

How to solve LED flickering issues?
LED flickering can be tied back to the driver component within the lamp. The essential purpose of the LED driver design is to rely on a simple circuit to control output current, but without altering the frequency, the LED becomes likely to show visible flicker. However, this can be fixed by using constant current drivers, which remove the peaks of the sine wave.





Power correction components within the driver circuit must also be addressed. Without this, ripple currents in the power flow will cause flickering.

Ultimately if the driver design of the LED bulb meets the requirements of both a stable DC current and ample ripple suppression, there should be no flicker. If flickering is present in your LED lamp (and you are not dimming with it), it was likely created with cheap driver components. The technology in LED lighting has advanced to the point where this should not happen, unfortunately there are companies that care more about their bottom line than the health of their customers.

How Dimming Causes LED Flickering
Another challenging variable for LED lamps to avoid flickering is through dimming. Most standard wall dimmers work by phase cutting, which removes part of the sine wave and reduces the voltage. However, this can have negative affects on an LED circuit and actually result in the flicker effect being amplified to a potentially dangerous level (3-15Hz range).

This is one of the main reasons why it’s hard to trust old dimming systems with new LED bulbs. The only way to be sure no flickering will be present is to get LED-specific dimming solutions for your LED lamps. It all comes back to the fact that LED is a long-term investment. In turn it is worth doing research to ensure you are getting a quality LED bulb, and that if you plan to dim with it you are getting an LED dimming system that has been tested as being compatible to the LED bulbs you intend to use.
_________________________________________________________________________

Now, show us a link where the emitter is the cause of the flicker, and not the driver.

Otherwise, understand that the Bellman's Proof is not a valid argument.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

On Wednesday, 12 December 2018 16:00:17 UTC, pf...@aol.com wrote:

As an LED is a go/no-go device, flicker is indicative of a condition outside the emitter. Full stop.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

I know you think you're right about everything, but you're not. LEDs do sometimes go into flickering mode. You could go google if you don't believe me, it's not that hard to do.


NT

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

Thought not.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

On Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:47:10 UTC, pf...@aol.com wrote:

Thought not.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

you've earnt your ignorance and you get to keep it.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 2:00:49 PM UTC-5, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, 12 December 2018 17:47:10 UTC, pf...@aol.com wrote:
Thought not.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

you've earnt your ignorance and you get to keep it.

For someone who rears up like an injured virgin when called out, you have lost a priceless opportunity to humiliate your oppressor.

That would be earned. Whereas Earnt is correct, it is non-standard and somewhat pretentious. Similar to your inferred virginity.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA