Hidden Tesla Technological System

[thhissux]

Has anyone ever heard of Tesla having designed two entirely different
systems of technology within one basic hardware design. That is the
one we use now with AC polyphase system and another "hidden" system of
application which uses the same hardware and terminology but is of a
"non-electrical" energy. The non-electrical component being present in
the electrical but in this other one specifically isolated and freed
from the movement of electrons. It's interesting because when I looked
at both I realized that the other would function just the same with
minor adjustments to all of our existing hardware. Could we have a
hidden potential technology just waiting to be used and applied to our
current electrical grid? While reading his paper "Experiments With
Alternate Currents Of High Potential And High Frequency" you could
just as easily think he was describing one type of technology when in
reality a concealed second meaning was being described as well in
which if one had the "key" would unveil a new realm of possibilities.

 

[J.B. Wood]

On 11/16/2010 12:09 AM, thhissux wrote:

Has anyone ever heard of Tesla having designed two entirely different
systems of technology within one basic hardware design. That is the
one we use now with AC polyphase system and another "hidden" system of
application which uses the same hardware and terminology but is of a
"non-electrical" energy. The non-electrical component being present in
the electrical but in this other one specifically isolated and freed
from the movement of electrons. It's interesting because when I looked
at both I realized that the other would function just the same with
minor adjustments to all of our existing hardware. Could we have a
hidden potential technology just waiting to be used and applied to our
current electrical grid? While reading his paper "Experiments With
Alternate Currents Of High Potential And High Frequency" you could
just as easily think he was describing one type of technology when in
reality a concealed second meaning was being described as well in
which if one had the "key" would unveil a new realm of possibilities.

Hello, and Nikola Tesla, while arguably one of the world's great
inventors, is often associated with, for lack of a better term,
fantastic/sci-fi devices. Tesla himself is partly to blame since he
made claims for some of his more exotic devices (e.g. a handheld
oscillator that could bring down a bridge) that were never demonstrated.
Another problem is that biographies on Tesla (e.g. Margaret Cheney's
book) aren't written by folks with sufficient technical knowledge IMO to
separate the wheat from the chaff. Whether or not this is a deliberate
attempt to sell more books I can't say. Kind of like the Syfy channel's
"Ghost Hunters" show. Is it really science or more for pure
entertainment? (The hosts are Roto-Rooter plumbers by day if that means
anything.)

As any EE like myself knows, Tesla's contributions to A.C. power
generation, distribution and utilization are real, practical, and
well-documented. A unit for magnetic flux density takes his name. His
experiments in high-frequency A.C. also added to our knowledge of
electrophysics. Can't we just let it go at that and let the man RIP?
Sincerely,

--
John Wood (Code 5520) e-mail: wood@itd.nrl.navy.mil

Naval Research Laboratory
4555 Overlook Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20375-5337

 

[contrex]

On Nov 16, 11:36 am, "J.B. Wood" <john.w...@nrl.navy.mil> wrote:

As any EE like myself knows, Tesla's contributions to A.C. power
generation, distribution and utilization are real, practical, and
well-documented.  A unit for magnetic flux density takes his name.  His
experiments in high-frequency A.C. also added to our knowledge of
electrophysics.  Can't we just let it go at that and let the man RIP?

Amen to that.

 

[m II]

On 10-11-15 10:09 PM, thhissux wrote:

Has anyone ever heard of Tesla having designed two entirely different
systems of technology within one basic hardware design. That is the
one we use now with AC polyphase system and another "hidden" system of
application which uses the same hardware and terminology but is of a
"non-electrical" energy. The non-electrical component being present in
the electrical but in this other one specifically isolated and freed
from the movement of electrons. It's interesting because when I looked
at both I realized that the other would function just the same with
minor adjustments to all of our existing hardware. Could we have a
hidden potential technology just waiting to be used and applied to our
current electrical grid? While reading his paper "Experiments With
Alternate Currents Of High Potential And High Frequency" you could
just as easily think he was describing one type of technology when in
reality a concealed second meaning was being described as well in
which if one had the "key" would unveil a new realm of possibilities.

There indeed *IS* a parallel, hidden system at work. While Tesla's
devices supply the modern world with electricity and horsepower, the
OTHER system, developed by greed, is making money flow out of your
pockets, in the other direction.

That other system generally has a period or cycle not of 60 Hertz, but
of approximately a month. Strangely, there is a very tight
co-relationship between the amount of money and the amount of current
provided.


mike

 

[Don Kelly]

"J.B. Wood" wrote in message news:ibtqcc$ggi$1@ra.nrl.navy.mil...


As any EE like myself knows, Tesla's contributions to A.C. power
generation, distribution and utilization are real, practical, and
well-documented. A unit for magnetic flux density takes his name. His
experiments in high-frequency A.C. also added to our knowledge of
electrophysics. Can't we just let it go at that and let the man RIP?
Sincerely,

--
John Wood (Code 5520) e-mail: wood@itd.nrl.navy.mil
----------------------
Right on! Remember him for what he really accomplished.

Don Kelly
cross out to reply

 

[krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 06:36:43 -0500, "J.B. Wood" <john.wood@nrl.navy.mil>
wrote:

On 11/16/2010 12:09 AM, thhissux wrote:
Has anyone ever heard of Tesla having designed two entirely different
systems of technology within one basic hardware design. That is the
one we use now with AC polyphase system and another "hidden" system of
application which uses the same hardware and terminology but is of a
"non-electrical" energy. The non-electrical component being present in
the electrical but in this other one specifically isolated and freed
from the movement of electrons. It's interesting because when I looked
at both I realized that the other would function just the same with
minor adjustments to all of our existing hardware. Could we have a
hidden potential technology just waiting to be used and applied to our
current electrical grid? While reading his paper "Experiments With
Alternate Currents Of High Potential And High Frequency" you could
just as easily think he was describing one type of technology when in
reality a concealed second meaning was being described as well in
which if one had the "key" would unveil a new realm of possibilities.

Hello, and Nikola Tesla, while arguably one of the world's great
inventors, is often associated with, for lack of a better term,
fantastic/sci-fi devices. Tesla himself is partly to blame since he
made claims for some of his more exotic devices (e.g. a handheld
oscillator that could bring down a bridge) that were never demonstrated.
Another problem is that biographies on Tesla (e.g. Margaret Cheney's
book) aren't written by folks with sufficient technical knowledge IMO to
separate the wheat from the chaff. Whether or not this is a deliberate
attempt to sell more books I can't say. Kind of like the Syfy channel's
"Ghost Hunters" show. Is it really science or more for pure
entertainment? (The hosts are Roto-Rooter plumbers by day if that means
anything.)

As any EE like myself knows, Tesla's contributions to A.C. power
generation, distribution and utilization are real, practical, and
well-documented. A unit for magnetic flux density takes his name. His
experiments in high-frequency A.C. also added to our knowledge of
electrophysics. Can't we just let it go at that and let the man RIP?
Sincerely,

Killjoy.

 

[Don Kelly]

Westinghouse also decided on 60Hz but, at the time, he had more business
clout than Tesla so he is commonly cited. How much effect Tesla had on
Westinghouse at stage of the game is an open question.
There were several systems in use from 16.33 Hz to 133 Hz. 16 and 25Hz were
commonly used for industry because of need for lower speed motors driving
multiple loads through belts. Some 25Hz generation was still in use at
Niagara and in cities like New York and Toronto until the 1960's-70's or
later. lamp flicker was unpleasant 16.33Hz is still used for electric
railways in many areas (1/3 of 50Hz) 133Hz was considered nicer for
lighting than the lower frequencies as flicker is eliminated. 50 and 60Hz
were a compromise- a balance between lighting and motor needs. The actual
choice between 50 and 60 Hz really was a judgement call made differently in
different places (hey, if the Brits went 50Hz, the US would pick 60Hz). In
Japan it turned out to be a matter of which salesmen, British or US, had the
edge in a particular part of the country- so part is still 50Hz and the rest
is 60Hz. Modern electronics made the interconnection between these areas
feasible.
Differences in gearing are not really a problem: 60/1 vs 72/1 gear ratio
(for the second hand -2 pole motor). The rest is the same.
Differences in core size- not a big deal but favours 60Hz slightly but
initially drive technology favoured the slower generator speeds needed for
50Hz.
50Hz is better for transmission but at the distances then involved it really
wasn't a big consideration. Win some lose some.
it all came down to a bit of a coin toss as the technical aspects at the
time were relatively minor considerations. Once a particular frequency
became common- economics of scale took over.

Don Kelly
cross out to reply

"m II" wrote in message news:4ce304f2@news.x-privat.org...

On 10-11-16 01:44 PM, wbeaty wrote:

Tesla said this directly in one of his articles. His "World System"
was supposed to be totally compatible with an AC power grid running at
60Hz. And Tesla of course was the one who determined the 60Hz value
in early Westinghouse days. But this is just an issue of efficiency
and expense.

Tesla decided on a sixty Hz. frequency because it was easier to design
electric clocks with gearing related to 60. Think seconds...


He was asked to think of a 50 Hz system, but declined, even though 50
would be a bit more 'Metric' in nature. The sixty also allowed a bit of
a saving in transformer cores and such like.




mike

 

[Benj]

On Nov 16, 6:36 am, "J.B. Wood" <john.w...@nrl.navy.mil> wrote:

As any EE like myself knows, Tesla's contributions to A.C. power
generation, distribution and utilization are real, practical, and
well-documented.  A unit for magnetic flux density takes his name.  His
experiments in high-frequency A.C. also added to our knowledge of
electrophysics.  Can't we just let it go at that and let the man RIP?
Sincerely,

John Wood (Code 5520)        e-mail: w...@itd.nrl.navy.mil

Naval Research Laboratory
4555 Overlook Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20375-5337

Well, working as a gummint shill, why am I NOT surprised at your
efforts to STILL sweep Tesla and his inventions under the rug? If you
want Telsa to RIP then how about revealing all that Tesla based secret
technology that you and yours work with all the time?

Those in power have been trying to bury Tesla almost from the
beginning. His lab burned down just as he started to gain momentum.
Then he came under the thumb of J.P. Morgan. J.P.Morgan pulled no
punches: "Nobody milks my cow for free!" he said in regard to hiring
Tesla to produce inventions. Read almost any physics or Engineering
book nearly up to the present and his name has been chiseled off all
the monuments! And Tesla is the guy who just about single-handedly
invented the 20th century. Not just power distribution and 3 phase and
induction motors and all the rest that modern industry, nay,
civilization couldn't exist without, but truly advanced items like the
AND and OR gate! Or the remote controlled robot (he called them
teleautomatons). Even the genius of the analog speedometer in your car
still in wide use today is a Tesla invention.

Yet, the probing and study of all he did is STILL discouraged by guys
like John Wood. What are they afraid of? You can bet that the very
fact of trying to minimize and denigrate his inventions shows that
there are things there of POLITICAL importance that they do NOT want
discovered. So the beat goes on. We are all supposed to be happy that
there is a unit of magnetic flux bearing his name. Whoop de do!

Don't be mislead by all the bullshit (of which the speculations in
this thread are a fine example). Go dig it out for yourself as best
you can and be aware that there are others interested in seeing that
you DO NOT dig it out. Be careful out there.

By the way 60 Hz was picked because it provided the best compromise
between weight and efficiency given the use of readily available
inexpensive soft iron of the day for transformers. 400 Hz was picked
for aircraft (of WWII) because weight reduction was more important
than efficiency and by then there were also better core materials
available. Obviously modern Ferrites provided another possible jump in
frequency without losses being too serious. Tesla himself calculated
the optimum soft iron frequency arriving at 60 hz. Earth resonance
experiments came later.

 

[krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 03:54:22 -0800, Rich Grise <richg@example.net.invalid>
wrote:

Sylvia Else wrote:
On 17/11/2010 9:45 PM, Ian Bell wrote:
wbeaty wrote:
On Nov 16, 2:50 pm, "Joel Koltner"<zapwireDASHgro...@yahoo.com
"m II"<C...@in.the.hat> wrote in

He was asked to think of a 50 Hz system, but declined, even though
50 would
be a bit more 'Metric' in nature. The sixty also allowed a bit of a
saving
in transformer cores and such like.

So... why not 100Hz? Too lossy back when this was all being seriously
considered?

It wasn't divisible by 3 like his hotel room number, number of laps he
swam at the pool, etc.

Duh? 100, just like any other number IS divisible by three. The result
just isn't an integer.

The expression "divisible by x" is conventionally understood to mean an
integral number of times, since otherwise the expression would have no
purpose as it would, as you point out, apply to any number.

Isn't there some expression like "evenly divisible..." or some such, to
disambiguate the phrase?

The statement "is divisible by" is null if there isn't an implicit
understanding of an integer result.

 

[thhissux]

In high voltage DC generators an electrostatic discharge happens at
the instant of switch closer which if not insulated or grounded
properly can cause death or serious injury. These discharges are
several times the magnitude of the voltage the generator can supply.
My question is what causes this to occur and where is this "excess" or
increased power coming from? Could we continually generate such an
instance and somehow tap this energy? Does this mean that under
certain conditions in the systems used today we have access to even
greater amounts of energy then we presently utilize?

 

[Don Kelly]

"Benj" wrote in message
news:991197c5-91b8-48fd-8180-abe4e7ccef73@a37g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...

On Nov 16, 6:36 am, "J.B. Wood" <john.w...@nrl.navy.mil> wrote:

As any EE like myself knows, Tesla's contributions to A.C. power
generation, distribution and utilization are real, practical, and
well-documented. A unit for magnetic flux density takes his name. His
experiments in high-frequency A.C. also added to our knowledge of
electrophysics. Can't we just let it go at that and let the man RIP?
Sincerely,

John Wood (Code 5520) e-mail: w...@itd.nrl.navy.mil

Naval Research Laboratory
4555 Overlook Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20375-5337

Well, working as a gummint shill, why am I NOT surprised at your
efforts to STILL sweep Tesla and his inventions under the rug? If you
want Telsa to RIP then how about revealing all that Tesla based secret
technology that you and yours work with all the time?

Those in power have been trying to bury Tesla almost from the
beginning. His lab burned down just as he started to gain momentum.
Then he came under the thumb of J.P. Morgan. J.P.Morgan pulled no
punches: "Nobody milks my cow for free!" he said in regard to hiring
Tesla to produce inventions. Read almost any physics or Engineering
book nearly up to the present and his name has been chiseled off all
the monuments! And Tesla is the guy who just about single-handedly
invented the 20th century. Not just power distribution and 3 phase and
induction motors and all the rest that modern industry, nay,
civilization couldn't exist without, but truly advanced items like the
AND and OR gate! Or the remote controlled robot (he called them
teleautomatons). Even the genius of the analog speedometer in your car
still in wide use today is a Tesla invention.

Yet, the probing and study of all he did is STILL discouraged by guys
like John Wood. What are they afraid of? You can bet that the very
fact of trying to minimize and denigrate his inventions shows that
there are things there of POLITICAL importance that they do NOT want
discovered. So the beat goes on. We are all supposed to be happy that
there is a unit of magnetic flux bearing his name. Whoop de do!

Don't be mislead by all the bullshit (of which the speculations in
this thread are a fine example). Go dig it out for yourself as best
you can and be aware that there are others interested in seeing that
you DO NOT dig it out. Be careful out there.

By the way 60 Hz was picked because it provided the best compromise
between weight and efficiency given the use of readily available
inexpensive soft iron of the day for transformers. 400 Hz was picked
for aircraft (of WWII) because weight reduction was more important
than efficiency and by then there were also better core materials
available. Obviously modern Ferrites provided another possible jump in
frequency without losses being too serious. Tesla himself calculated
the optimum soft iron frequency arriving at 60 hz. Earth resonance
experiments came later.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not a government shill and I agree with John. Sure there are many other
things that Tesla did- he was a genius. He deserves more credit than Edison.
I'm not belittling his real accomplishments (though those you mention got
nowhere at the time - probably because the technology and/or the need
weren't there to make it feasible at the time, rather than an attempt to
hide his accomplishments ) .
What I have a problem with is the same one that his backers had in the later
years- his mind had gone round the bend and was chasing rainbows in
Colorado. When the backers realized this, the funds dried up.
So I try to distinguish between his real accomplishments and what might
have been or were simply pie in the sky.
Tesla is given as much or (deservedly) more credit than Edison in many
engineering texts- and elsewhere- at least in those that I am most familiar
with.

Oh, yes, the inexpensive soft irons of the day don't favour 60Hz over
50Hz.- In fact, with the irons in use at the time, 50Hz had an advantage.
Even in the US 50Hz was on the scene prior to 60Hz- but to say one is
better than the other depends on how you define "better" Win some, lose
some. 25Hz survived for a long time and it had its advantages for the
application of Tesla's motors. 133Hz has an advantage with regard to
lighting. 16.33Hz is still in use for railways because it has an advantage
in a specialized application.
What was recognized was that there had to be a standardization.
All that happened is that Tesla, Westinghouse and others made a choice on a
compromise basis for general use and this was in the 50-60Hz range-
suboptimal for everything.

Don Kelly
cross out to reply

 

[thhissux]

Tesla found that the frequencies between 40-100Hz were safe as opposed
to the lower frequencies which could be dangerous and painful.
However, I also found that he discovered that the earth was by itself
resonant 6Hz(6.67 precisely). He also saw the earth as the inner
conductor plate of a spherical capacitor, with the ionosphere as the
outer conductor plate and the atmosphere as the dielectric, which
formed a resonating cavity with a peak at 8Hz(7.83Hz). While these low
frequencies would be dangerous a multiple of them would be a safe and
harmonic operation level with the earth and its surrounding media. I
also read that while experimenting with a mechanically vibrating
platform at 6Hz "one would develop a feeling of pleasant dizziness,
some mild nausea, and a profound pelvic relaxation that could lead to
sudden massive diarrhea". Maybe some dangers for not using the lower
frequencies included not sending the entire nation to the bathroom at
once, twice, thrice...until someone re-tuned the grid.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2010-11-18, thhissux <thhissux@aol.com> wrote:

Tesla found that the frequencies between 40-100Hz were safe as opposed
to the lower frequencies which could be dangerous and painful.
However, I also found that he discovered that the earth was by itself
resonant 6Hz(6.67 precisely). He also saw the earth as the inner
conductor plate of a spherical capacitor, with the ionosphere as the
outer conductor plate and the atmosphere as the dielectric, which
formed a resonating cavity with a peak at 8Hz(7.83Hz). While these low
frequencies would be dangerous a multiple of them would be a safe and
harmonic operation level with the earth and its surrounding media. I
also read that while experimenting with a mechanically vibrating
platform at 6Hz "one would develop a feeling of pleasant dizziness,
some mild nausea, and a profound pelvic relaxation that could lead to
sudden massive diarrhea".

Tesla discovered "the brown note" ?

Have you got a cite for that?

--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

 

[Bob Masta]

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 20:56:40 -0800 (PST), thhissux
<thhissux@aol.com> wrote:

I
also read that while experimenting with a mechanically vibrating
platform at 6Hz "one would develop a feeling of pleasant dizziness,
some mild nausea, and a profound pelvic relaxation that could lead to
sudden massive diarrhea".

There is a well-known resonance frequency of the human
abdomen that is in this frequency range, usually noted as 7
Hz. Similar results have been obtained with (very) loud
sub-sonic sound (from a steam whistle, as I recall).

Best regards,


Bob Masta

DAQARTA v5.10
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Sound Level Meter
Frequency Counter, FREE Signal Generator
Pitch Track, Pitch-to-MIDI
DaqMusic - FREE MUSIC, Forever!
(Some assembly required)
Science (and fun!) with your sound card!

 

[J.B. Wood]

On 11/17/2010 02:18 AM, Benj wrote:

On Nov 16, 6:36 am, "J.B. Wood"<john.w...@nrl.navy.mil> wrote:

As any EE like myself knows, Tesla's contributions to A.C. power
generation, distribution and utilization are real, practical, and
well-documented. A unit for magnetic flux density takes his name. His
experiments in high-frequency A.C. also added to our knowledge of
electrophysics. Can't we just let it go at that and let the man RIP?
Sincerely,

John Wood (Code 5520) e-mail: w...@itd.nrl.navy.mil

Naval Research Laboratory
4555 Overlook Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20375-5337

Well, working as a gummint shill, why am I NOT surprised at your
efforts to STILL sweep Tesla and his inventions under the rug? If you
want Telsa to RIP then how about revealing all that Tesla based secret
technology that you and yours work with all the time?

You're entitled to your views/opinions; It doesn't mean I or anyone else
has to agree with them. If you're ever in the metro Washington D.C.
area I would be more than happy to give you a tour of the U.S. Navy's
S&T corporate lab (the establishment of which was suggested by Edison
himself) where I work. (If you're not a U.S. citizen the tour would be
more limited.) You might even learn something. Have a nice day.
Sincerely,

--
John Wood (Code 5520) e-mail: wood@itd.nrl.navy.mil

Naval Research Laboratory
4555 Overlook Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20375-5337

 

[Don Kelly]

Could you expand on this? What kind of generator? Are you connecting the
generator to a load when closing the switch? Is the discharge across the
switch gap when it is small? This could simply be due to a high field due
to the generator voltage across the gap,causing an arc. It could also be
due to discharge of capacitance in the generator. Being several times
higher than the generator voltage suggests some resonance.

Can you tap this energy?
In theory you could have a perfect switch so the load would get it but it is
really quite negligible and not worth the effort. In any case, it is not
"free" but comes from energy put into the generator in the first place. So,
the answer is NO.

Don Kelly
cross out to reply
"thhissux" wrote in message
news:202ce5f2-566f-4c90-88ac-f2d453ae1fbc@26g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...

In high voltage DC generators an electrostatic discharge happens at
the instant of switch closer which if not insulated or grounded
properly can cause death or serious injury. These discharges are
several times the magnitude of the voltage the generator can supply.
My question is what causes this to occur and where is this "excess" or
increased power coming from? Could we continually generate such an
instance and somehow tap this energy? Does this mean that under
certain conditions in the systems used today we have access to even
greater amounts of energy then we presently utilize?

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Rich Grise wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

What do you think? A loaded AM broadcast tower uses the ground for
the counterpoise. A dipole antenna is two radiators fed 180 degrees out
of phase.

THEY ARE NOT "OUT OF PHASE"!!!!!!!!!!

They are perfectly _IN_ phase, but of opposite polarity.

With a sinusoid, the result of a polarity reversal _LOOKS_ exactly the
same as a 180 degree phase shift, but they are _FAR_ from the same thing.

To test this, just try it with a pulse:

_ _ _ _
__| |____| |____| |____| |___ <-- start here

__ ____ ____ ____ ___
|_| |_| |_| |_| <-- polarity inversion

_ _ _ _
| |____| |____| |____| |___ <-- 180 degree phase shift

_NOW_ do you get it?

You don't use square waves for AM broadcast.


--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off
scientist!!!

 

[Rich Grise]

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

What do you think? A loaded AM broadcast tower uses the ground for
the counterpoise. A dipole antenna is two radiators fed 180 degrees
out of phase.

THEY ARE NOT "OUT OF PHASE"!!!!!!!!!!

They are perfectly _IN_ phase, but of opposite polarity.

With a sinusoid, the result of a polarity reversal _LOOKS_ exactly the
same as a 180 degree phase shift, but they are _FAR_ from the same thing.

To test this, just try it with a pulse:

_ _ _ _
__| |____| |____| |____| |___ <-- start here

__ ____ ____ ____ ___
|_| |_| |_| |_| <-- polarity inversion

_ _ _ _
| |____| |____| |____| |___ <-- 180 degree phase shift

_NOW_ do you get it?


You don't use square waves for AM broadcast.

You must be a liberal. Change the subject rather than admit that you're in

error.

Good Luck!
Rich

 

[Tim Williams]

"Rich Grise" <richg@example.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:ichamg$4at$2@news.eternal-september.org...

THEY ARE NOT "OUT OF PHASE"!!!!!!!!!!

Uh, yes they are.

They are perfectly _IN_ phase, but of opposite polarity.

....Which is exactly 180 degrees phase.

With a sinusoid, the result of a polarity reversal _LOOKS_ exactly the
same as a 180 degree phase shift, but they are _FAR_ from the same
thing.

To test this, just try it with a pulse:

_ _ _ _
__| |____| |____| |____| |___ <-- start here


__ ____ ____ ____ ___
|_| |_| |_| |_| <-- polarity inversion

If you had gone to school, you'd have performed Fourier transforms and
been taught that:
F{-f(t)} = -F{f(t)} = F{f(t)} * e^pi
i.e., negation of the time-domain function is negation = multiplied by
e^pi = 180 degree phase shift of the frequency-domain function.

Would you like a proof? It becomes obvious from the integral.

What is NOT obvious is any other phase shift besides 0 and 180. Here's an
example of a "brick wall" filtered square wave (up to, I think, the 15th
harmonic), with an equal phase shift applied to all harmonics, in 10
degree increments.
http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/Square_Phaseshift.gif
It's clearly flat-topped inbetween, if still quite squiggly due to Gibbs'
phenomenon. It looks more triangular at 90 degrees, except for the strong
peak.

The halfway point (i.e., 90 / 270 degrees) is known as the Hilbert
transform. Naturally, no finite network exists which has this behavior
(flat response, 90 degree phase shift); it's usually approximated with a
truncated series of all-pass filters, or computed in DSP.

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

 

[Don Klipstein]

In article <ichn3q$c90$1@news.eternal-september.org>, Tim Williams wrote:

"Rich Grise" <richg@example.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:ichamg$4at$2@news.eternal-september.org...
THEY ARE NOT "OUT OF PHASE"!!!!!!!!!!

Uh, yes they are.

They are perfectly _IN_ phase, but of opposite polarity.

...Which is exactly 180 degrees phase.

With a sinusoid, the result of a polarity reversal _LOOKS_ exactly the
same as a 180 degree phase shift, but they are _FAR_ from the same
thing.

To test this, just try it with a pulse:

_ _ _ _
__| |____| |____| |____| |___ <-- start here


__ ____ ____ ____ ___
|_| |_| |_| |_| <-- polarity inversion

If you had gone to school, you'd have performed Fourier transforms and
been taught that:
F{-f(t)} = -F{f(t)} = F{f(t)} * e^pi
i.e., negation of the time-domain function is negation = multiplied by
e^pi = 180 degree phase shift of the frequency-domain function.

Would you like a proof? It becomes obvious from the integral.

What is NOT obvious is any other phase shift besides 0 and 180. Here's an
example of a "brick wall" filtered square wave (up to, I think, the 15th
harmonic), with an equal phase shift applied to all harmonics, in 10
degree increments.
http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/Square_Phaseshift.gif
It's clearly flat-topped inbetween, if still quite squiggly due to Gibbs'
phenomenon. It looks more triangular at 90 degrees, except for the strong
peak.

The halfway point (i.e., 90 / 270 degrees) is known as the Hilbert
transform. Naturally, no finite network exists which has this behavior
(flat response, 90 degree phase shift); it's usually approximated with a
truncated series of all-pass filters, or computed in DSP.

You are saying that shifting each harmonic by 180 degrees of its
individual frequency is the same as inverting polarity of the whole as
well as all individual harmonics. That is true.

Rich was saying shifting a waveform by 180 degrees of its fundamental
frequency is not the same as inversion - which is true when there is "lack
of halfwave symmetry"
(negative half cycle is not an inverted repeat of positive half cycle).

(True when even harmonics are present, false when even harmonics are
absent).
--
- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)