Help to identify National 14 pin DIP

M

Mark Storkamp

Guest
I'm trying to reverse engineer a small circuit with a light detector
that's used to set end-of-stroke on a mechanical slide. The circuit has
a 7-pin header, three light emitter/detector pairs, two SIP resistor
packages, and one IC. I need help identifying the IC. It's a 14 pin DIP

It's labeled:
1st line: (National Semiconductor Logo) 158 9129
2nd line: SA 779197
3rd line: 8201 CPA

Anybody recognize this or know where I can get a data sheet for it?
Thanks.
 
Mark Storkamp wrote:
I'm trying to reverse engineer a small circuit with a light detector
that's used to set end-of-stroke on a mechanical slide. The circuit has
a 7-pin header, three light emitter/detector pairs, two SIP resistor
packages, and one IC. I need help identifying the IC. It's a 14 pin DIP

It's labeled:
1st line: (National Semiconductor Logo) 158 9129
2nd line: SA 779197
3rd line: 8201 CPA

Anybody recognize this or know where I can get a data sheet for it?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

That is a 30 year old house numbered part. Try looking on the
bottom. Sometimes the real part number is stamped there on custom
labeled parts. Or contact the company that manufactured the unit.
 
In article <Z8mdnbFNypp3wiPNnZ2dnUVZ_h6dnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Mark Storkamp wrote:

I'm trying to reverse engineer a small circuit with a light detector
that's used to set end-of-stroke on a mechanical slide. The circuit has
a 7-pin header, three light emitter/detector pairs, two SIP resistor
packages, and one IC. I need help identifying the IC. It's a 14 pin DIP

It's labeled:
1st line: (National Semiconductor Logo) 158 9129
2nd line: SA 779197
3rd line: 8201 CPA

Anybody recognize this or know where I can get a data sheet for it?
Thanks.


That is a 30 year old house numbered part. Try looking on the
bottom. Sometimes the real part number is stamped there on custom
labeled parts. Or contact the company that manufactured the unit.
Click to expand...
You might want to look at the board, so as to see what might make sense.

When I had quad emitter/detector circuits to play with in the 80's we
were using an LM339 quad comparator. If the circuit looks like that
might be it (with one quarter out of use) then it's worth a shot. If the
pinout would not work for a 339, then that won't be what it is...

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.
 
In article
<MyNameForward-89F755.17322304122012@news.eternal-september.org>,
Ecnerwal <MyNameForward@ReplaceWithMyVices.Com.invalid> wrote:

In article <Z8mdnbFNypp3wiPNnZ2dnUVZ_h6dnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Mark Storkamp wrote:

I'm trying to reverse engineer a small circuit with a light detector
that's used to set end-of-stroke on a mechanical slide. The circuit has
a 7-pin header, three light emitter/detector pairs, two SIP resistor
packages, and one IC. I need help identifying the IC. It's a 14 pin DIP

It's labeled:
1st line: (National Semiconductor Logo) 158 9129
2nd line: SA 779197
3rd line: 8201 CPA

Anybody recognize this or know where I can get a data sheet for it?
Thanks.


That is a 30 year old house numbered part. Try looking on the
bottom. Sometimes the real part number is stamped there on custom
labeled parts. Or contact the company that manufactured the unit.

You might want to look at the board, so as to see what might make sense.

When I had quad emitter/detector circuits to play with in the 80's we
were using an LM339 quad comparator. If the circuit looks like that
might be it (with one quarter out of use) then it's worth a shot. If the
pinout would not work for a 339, then that won't be what it is...
Click to expand...
Thanks. I looked up the pinout for that, but the power pins don't seem
to be in the right spot for a LM339. Now I'm thinking it may just be a
hex schmitt trigger. I buzzed out the lines to the header, and if pins 7
and 14 on the chip are power, then pins 1 and 2 on the header are the
power connectors. Pins 3 and 7 are not connected to anything, and that
leaves pins 4, 5 and 6 as outputs, and they're on pins 2, 4 and 6 of the
DIP. I'll probably just put 5V on it and see what happens when I block
the light paths. I feel pretty sure it's just either totem-pole or open
collector outputs. Worst that can happen is I just have to build a new
one from scratch. What I don't understand is why they would use a house
part number on something like this. This is surplus equipment, I don't
know who the original manufacturer was.
 
Mark Storkamp wrote:
In article
MyNameForward-89F755.17322304122012@news.eternal-september.org>,
Ecnerwal <MyNameForward@ReplaceWithMyVices.Com.invalid> wrote:

In article <Z8mdnbFNypp3wiPNnZ2dnUVZ_h6dnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Mark Storkamp wrote:
I'm trying to reverse engineer a small circuit with a light detector
that's used to set end-of-stroke on a mechanical slide. The circuit has
a 7-pin header, three light emitter/detector pairs, two SIP resistor
packages, and one IC. I need help identifying the IC. It's a 14 pin DIP

It's labeled:
1st line: (National Semiconductor Logo) 158 9129
2nd line: SA 779197
3rd line: 8201 CPA

Anybody recognize this or know where I can get a data sheet for it?
Thanks.

That is a 30 year old house numbered part. Try looking on the
bottom. Sometimes the real part number is stamped there on custom
labeled parts. Or contact the company that manufactured the unit.
You might want to look at the board, so as to see what might make sense.

When I had quad emitter/detector circuits to play with in the 80's we
were using an LM339 quad comparator. If the circuit looks like that
might be it (with one quarter out of use) then it's worth a shot. If the
pinout would not work for a 339, then that won't be what it is...

Thanks. I looked up the pinout for that, but the power pins don't seem
to be in the right spot for a LM339. Now I'm thinking it may just be a
hex schmitt trigger. I buzzed out the lines to the header, and if pins 7
and 14 on the chip are power, then pins 1 and 2 on the header are the
power connectors. Pins 3 and 7 are not connected to anything, and that
leaves pins 4, 5 and 6 as outputs, and they're on pins 2, 4 and 6 of the
DIP. I'll probably just put 5V on it and see what happens when I block
the light paths. I feel pretty sure it's just either totem-pole or open
collector outputs. Worst that can happen is I just have to build a new
one from scratch. What I don't understand is why they would use a house
part number on something like this. This is surplus equipment, I don't
know who the original manufacturer was.
Click to expand...
If the power pins are not stock then that should narrow down the
possibilities - there are only a few TTL devices that don't have the
kitty corner pins and if this is a 14 pin device there are only a handful...

Can you tell if it runs at 5V or some other voltage (TTL vs CMOS)?

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
 
Mark Storkamp wrote:
Thanks. I looked up the pinout for that, but the power pins don't seem
to be in the right spot for a LM339. Now I'm thinking it may just be a
hex schmitt trigger. I buzzed out the lines to the header, and if pins 7
and 14 on the chip are power, then pins 1 and 2 on the header are the
power connectors. Pins 3 and 7 are not connected to anything, and that
leaves pins 4, 5 and 6 as outputs, and they're on pins 2, 4 and 6 of the
DIP. I'll probably just put 5V on it and see what happens when I block
the light paths. I feel pretty sure it's just either totem-pole or open
collector outputs. Worst that can happen is I just have to build a new
one from scratch. What I don't understand is why they would use a house
part number on something like this. This is surplus equipment, I don't
know who the original manufacturer was.
Click to expand...

Some companies do that to prevent employee theft. Some did it so
that the parts had their stock number marked on it. Others were
screened for certain characteristics. Sometimes only one OEM's part
would work in a design, and got a separate stock number. We had
separate stock numbers for a number of ICs at Nicrodyne, where we used
multiple OEMs for the same base part number. I qualified, or blacklisted
several vendors while I worked there.

Sometimes a batch of house numbered parts were surplused with the real
part number on the paperwork from whoever dumped them. Small companies
try to shave every cent they can on material costs, and would gladly buy
the surplus.
 
On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Mark Storkamp wrote:

one from scratch. What I don't understand is why they would use a house
part number on something like this. This is surplus equipment, I don't
know who the original manufacturer was.

It keeps the customer reliant on the manufacturer. At the very least it
Click to expand...
means the parts come through the company so they get the profit, at worst
they can raise the price and make more profit.

It makes things a tad more difficult for someone to copy. It's no
different than some companies sanding off the IC numbers. Someone
tracing out the circuit has to work that much harder to figure out the
circuit, and if they don't find the IC through guess and such, then they
can't copy the circuit. It doesn't really stop those who have enough
knowledge, but it does keep out the simpler ones.

There was also a time when semiconductors weren't made as efficiently, so
there'd be lots of failures or semifailures in a batch. Sometimes the
manufacturer would put an official number on them, I'm thinking of the
time when 64K dynamic RAM were new and there was a high failure rate, but
it was limited to half the die. So they were perfectly normal 32K RAMs.
I suppose in some cases they might just sell the batch to one company,
with a house number, if the supply was such that a single company would
buy it all up. I suppose then things like transistors might be offered
ashouse numbered devices if they were out of spec, but a company that
could live with the lower specs could make use of them. You don't want
"bad" 2N706s to land in the hands of people who think they are full
spec'd.

Michael
 
On 12/05/2012 11:56 PM, Michael Black wrote:
On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Mark Storkamp wrote:

one from scratch. What I don't understand is why they would use a house
part number on something like this. This is surplus equipment, I don't
know who the original manufacturer was.

It keeps the customer reliant on the manufacturer. At the very least it
means the parts come through the company so they get the profit, at
worst they can raise the price and make more profit.

It makes things a tad more difficult for someone to copy. It's no
different than some companies sanding off the IC numbers. Someone
tracing out the circuit has to work that much harder to figure out the
circuit, and if they don't find the IC through guess and such, then they
can't copy the circuit. It doesn't really stop those who have enough
knowledge, but it does keep out the simpler ones.

There was also a time when semiconductors weren't made as efficiently,
so there'd be lots of failures or semifailures in a batch. Sometimes the
manufacturer would put an official number on them, I'm thinking of the
time when 64K dynamic RAM were new and there was a high failure rate,
but it was limited to half the die. So they were perfectly normal 32K RAMs.
I suppose in some cases they might just sell the batch to one company,
with a house number, if the supply was such that a single company would
buy it all up. I suppose then things like transistors might be offered
ashouse numbered devices if they were out of spec, but a company that
could live with the lower specs could make use of them. You don't want
"bad" 2N706s to land in the hands of people who think they are full spec'd.

Michael
Click to expand...
Long ago, I worked for AEL Microtel in Vancouver, the successor to GTE
Lenkurt. We used pretty nearly all house-numbered transistors (metal
cans back then). Some of them were specially selected parts, but it was
mostly to keep the stock numbers straight.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
 
On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 11:00:55 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 12/05/2012 11:56 PM, Michael Black wrote:
On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Mark Storkamp wrote:

one from scratch. What I don't understand is why they would use a house
part number on something like this. This is surplus equipment, I don't
know who the original manufacturer was.

It keeps the customer reliant on the manufacturer. At the very least it
means the parts come through the company so they get the profit, at
worst they can raise the price and make more profit.

It makes things a tad more difficult for someone to copy. It's no
different than some companies sanding off the IC numbers. Someone
tracing out the circuit has to work that much harder to figure out the
circuit, and if they don't find the IC through guess and such, then they
can't copy the circuit. It doesn't really stop those who have enough
knowledge, but it does keep out the simpler ones.

There was also a time when semiconductors weren't made as efficiently,
so there'd be lots of failures or semifailures in a batch. Sometimes the
manufacturer would put an official number on them, I'm thinking of the
time when 64K dynamic RAM were new and there was a high failure rate,
but it was limited to half the die. So they were perfectly normal 32K RAMs.
I suppose in some cases they might just sell the batch to one company,
with a house number, if the supply was such that a single company would
buy it all up. I suppose then things like transistors might be offered
ashouse numbered devices if they were out of spec, but a company that
could live with the lower specs could make use of them. You don't want
"bad" 2N706s to land in the hands of people who think they are full spec'd.

Michael


Long ago, I worked for AEL Microtel in Vancouver, the successor to GTE
Lenkurt. We used pretty nearly all house-numbered transistors (metal
cans back then). Some of them were specially selected parts, but it was
mostly to keep the stock numbers straight.
Click to expand...
IBM, too. Everything was house numbered and rarely did one group use
parts from another. Many had very unique specs. One engineer I
worked with spec'd an LF386 up to $30 each (put a tested limit on it
recovering after being driven into the rails).
 
In article <gft6c81di6875lp28ihlt1jvnfl6gvqpru@4ax.com>, krw@at.biz
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 11:00:55 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 12/05/2012 11:56 PM, Michael Black wrote:
On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Mark Storkamp wrote:

one from scratch. What I don't understand is why they would use a house
part number on something like this. This is surplus equipment, I don't
know who the original manufacturer was.

It keeps the customer reliant on the manufacturer. At the very least it
means the parts come through the company so they get the profit, at
worst they can raise the price and make more profit.

It makes things a tad more difficult for someone to copy. It's no
different than some companies sanding off the IC numbers. Someone
tracing out the circuit has to work that much harder to figure out the
circuit, and if they don't find the IC through guess and such, then they
can't copy the circuit. It doesn't really stop those who have enough
knowledge, but it does keep out the simpler ones.

There was also a time when semiconductors weren't made as efficiently,
so there'd be lots of failures or semifailures in a batch. Sometimes the
manufacturer would put an official number on them, I'm thinking of the
time when 64K dynamic RAM were new and there was a high failure rate,
but it was limited to half the die. So they were perfectly normal 32K RAMs.
I suppose in some cases they might just sell the batch to one company,
with a house number, if the supply was such that a single company would
buy it all up. I suppose then things like transistors might be offered
ashouse numbered devices if they were out of spec, but a company that
could live with the lower specs could make use of them. You don't want
"bad" 2N706s to land in the hands of people who think they are full spec'd.

Michael


Long ago, I worked for AEL Microtel in Vancouver, the successor to GTE
Lenkurt. We used pretty nearly all house-numbered transistors (metal
cans back then). Some of them were specially selected parts, but it was
mostly to keep the stock numbers straight.

IBM, too. Everything was house numbered and rarely did one group use
parts from another. Many had very unique specs. One engineer I
worked with spec'd an LF386 up to $30 each (put a tested limit on it
recovering after being driven into the rails).
Click to expand...
Back when I worked for Fairchild/Schlumberger ATE we never used house
numbered parts. (But then again, maybe we did. Most of the chips we used
had Fairchild numbers and logos on them ;-)
 
On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 13:29:17 -0600, Mark Storkamp
<mstorkamp@yahoo.com> wrote:

In article <gft6c81di6875lp28ihlt1jvnfl6gvqpru@4ax.com>, krw@at.biz
wrote:

On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 11:00:55 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 12/05/2012 11:56 PM, Michael Black wrote:
On Wed, 5 Dec 2012, Mark Storkamp wrote:

one from scratch. What I don't understand is why they would use a house
part number on something like this. This is surplus equipment, I don't
know who the original manufacturer was.

It keeps the customer reliant on the manufacturer. At the very least it
means the parts come through the company so they get the profit, at
worst they can raise the price and make more profit.

It makes things a tad more difficult for someone to copy. It's no
different than some companies sanding off the IC numbers. Someone
tracing out the circuit has to work that much harder to figure out the
circuit, and if they don't find the IC through guess and such, then they
can't copy the circuit. It doesn't really stop those who have enough
knowledge, but it does keep out the simpler ones.

There was also a time when semiconductors weren't made as efficiently,
so there'd be lots of failures or semifailures in a batch. Sometimes the
manufacturer would put an official number on them, I'm thinking of the
time when 64K dynamic RAM were new and there was a high failure rate,
but it was limited to half the die. So they were perfectly normal 32K RAMs.
I suppose in some cases they might just sell the batch to one company,
with a house number, if the supply was such that a single company would
buy it all up. I suppose then things like transistors might be offered
ashouse numbered devices if they were out of spec, but a company that
could live with the lower specs could make use of them. You don't want
"bad" 2N706s to land in the hands of people who think they are full spec'd.

Michael


Long ago, I worked for AEL Microtel in Vancouver, the successor to GTE
Lenkurt. We used pretty nearly all house-numbered transistors (metal
cans back then). Some of them were specially selected parts, but it was
mostly to keep the stock numbers straight.

IBM, too. Everything was house numbered and rarely did one group use
parts from another. Many had very unique specs. One engineer I
worked with spec'd an LF386 up to $30 each (put a tested limit on it
recovering after being driven into the rails).

Back when I worked for Fairchild/Schlumberger ATE we never used house
numbered parts. (But then again, maybe we did. Most of the chips we used
had Fairchild numbers and logos on them ;-)
Click to expand...
We don't use many house numbered parts anymore. The things are too
damned small to print part numbers on them. ;-)
 
krw@at.biz wrote:
We don't use many house numbered parts anymore. The things are too
damned small to print part numbers on them. ;-)
Click to expand...

No, they can print them but all the good engineers & technicians are
too old to be able to see them. Isn't that why IBM developed the
process of moving individual atoms with a laser? ;-)
 
On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 23:15:20 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

krw@at.biz wrote:

We don't use many house numbered parts anymore. The things are too
damned small to print part numbers on them. ;-)


No, they can print them but all the good engineers & technicians are
too old to be able to see them.
Click to expand...
Well, there is that. Good thing someone invented the Mantis.

Isn't that why IBM developed the
process of moving individual atoms with a laser? ;-)
Click to expand...
Laser? I thought it used electric fields.
 
krw@at.biz wrote:
On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 23:15:20 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:


krw@at.biz wrote:

We don't use many house numbered parts anymore. The things are too
damned small to print part numbers on them. ;-)


No, they can print them but all the good engineers & technicians are
too old to be able to see them.

Well, there is that. Good thing someone invented the Mantis.

Isn't that why IBM developed the
process of moving individual atoms with a laser? ;-)

Laser? I thought it used electric fields.
Click to expand...


It may have. All I saw was a bad news article that looked like it
was written by someone at the sports desk, and they do know how to speel
lazar. :)
 
On 12/10/2012 2:24 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
krw@at.biz wrote:

On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 23:15:20 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:


krw@at.biz wrote:

We don't use many house numbered parts anymore. The things are too
damned small to print part numbers on them. ;-)


No, they can print them but all the good engineers & technicians are
too old to be able to see them.

Well, there is that. Good thing someone invented the Mantis.

Isn't that why IBM developed the
process of moving individual atoms with a laser? ;-)

Laser? I thought it used electric fields.



It may have. All I saw was a bad news article that looked like it
was written by someone at the sports desk, and they do know how to speel
lazar. :)
Click to expand...
It was originally done using a cryogenic STM (scanning tunnelling
microscope). Writing the IBM logo in novel ways to get free advertising
on TV was a popular sport in the Research Division.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 USA
+1 845 480 2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
 
Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 12/10/2012 2:24 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

krw@at.biz wrote:

On Fri, 07 Dec 2012 23:15:20 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:


krw@at.biz wrote:

We don't use many house numbered parts anymore. The things are too
damned small to print part numbers on them. ;-)


No, they can print them but all the good engineers & technicians are
too old to be able to see them.

Well, there is that. Good thing someone invented the Mantis.

Isn't that why IBM developed the
process of moving individual atoms with a laser? ;-)

Laser? I thought it used electric fields.



It may have. All I saw was a bad news article that looked like it
was written by someone at the sports desk, and they do know how to speel
lazar. :)


It was originally done using a cryogenic STM (scanning tunnelling
microscope). Writing the IBM logo in novel ways to get free advertising
on TV was a popular sport in the Research Division.
Click to expand...

Well, it was in a magazine, and not well written by their staff. :(
 
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