Handling a "bad" customer

Guy Macon · Jun 8, 2005

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to check your Subject header and edit it to your liking.)

I was searching for failure rates of 9V vs AA batteries today, and
stumbled upon the following web page. I have my own opinion about
how the author of the page should have handled this, but I would
like to hear some other opinions first.

Here it is: [ http://www.shootingsoftware.com/digress.htm ].

Robert Baer · Jun 8, 2005

Guy Macon wrote:

(Note for those who dislike moderated newsgroups; you may wish
to check your Subject header and edit it to your liking.)

I was searching for failure rates of 9V vs AA batteries today, and
stumbled upon the following web page. I have my own opinion about
how the author of the page should have handled this, but I would
like to hear some other opinions first.

Here it is: [ http://www.shootingsoftware.com/digress.htm ].

After i wrote my response, i thought of something else.

The use of garbage bags might have been the most stupid thing to use.
Just because they may be black means *nothing*.
There could be stray beams of light or IR bouncing all kinds of ways
off the slick surfaces and royally messing with any detection scheme, no
matter how fancy or sophisticated.
Talk about ground clutter...

Joel Kolstad · Jun 8, 2005

"Guy Macon" <_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote in message
news:11adaupdg0op8b5@corp.supernews.com...

I was searching for failure rates of 9V vs AA batteries today, and
stumbled upon the following web page. I have my own opinion about
how the author of the page should have handled this, but I would
like to hear some other opinions first.

I think the seller should have just sent him a refund early on and forgotten
about it. I'd even refund the guy's purchase price of the software -- the
seller is just plain wrong when he says that "no one offers refunds for
software that can be copied."

The whiny customer does ask for many things that aren't reasonable in an
inexpensive product (full power-on self tests), although it's also true that
in many cases a lot of self-diagnostics can be added without changing the BOM
price at all by just adding more software. Of course I have no idea if that's
the case for the particular product in question here.

Oh well...

Ian Stirling · Jun 8, 2005

In sci.electronics.design Guy Macon <_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote:

(Note for those who dislike moderated newsgroups; you may wish
to check your Subject header and edit it to your liking.)

I was searching for failure rates of 9V vs AA batteries today, and
stumbled upon the following web page. I have my own opinion about
how the author of the page should have handled this, but I would
like to hear some other opinions first.

Here it is: [ http://www.shootingsoftware.com/digress.htm ].

Hunting down and killing customers is frowned on is it?
IMO, he missed the light, or it was intermittent, and on when he looked,
and started checking stuff.
Once he had that amount of time invested, he wasn't going to admit a mistake.

Tobias Brox · Jun 8, 2005

[Guy Macon]

I was searching for failure rates of 9V vs AA batteries today, and
stumbled upon the following web page. I have my own opinion about
how the author of the page should have handled this, but I would
like to hear some other opinions first.

I choose to believe that the whole incident is mostly due to
miscommunication or a lack of communication, and that the failure
happened very early, after the first email from the seller the
customer spent too long time doing diagnostic, and he got a negative
attitude and got fed up with the whole thing.

It can very well be that there is some distance between the setup
where the customer can test the equipment, and the "email terminal"
where he can communicate from. In such a setting, I can fairly well
understand that the customer chooses to spend long time carefully
examinating the first hints he got from the seller - and maybe
particularly due to the optimistic ending of the first email.

The seller writes in his comments that the problem probably could have
been solved easily if telephone was used instead of email. Of course,
it's always easy to be smart in retro-perspective; the seller should
in the first email have stated his telephone number and encouraged the
customer to call. Probably a better ending would be "check those
things first, and then call or write me back".

If I read the communication correctly, the customer does come with a
fairly good theory of what's wrong (the first digit on the display
doesn't work) and as far as I understand, the IR tops did work at
first, the customer could see the green indicator lights (but failed
to see that one of them faded away). While checking the IR tops, the
customer also noted that the power for one of the tops was
alternating. I do not know this kind of equipment well enough to
estimate the users techincal knowledge, and I don't know how much this
system costs. Self-diagnostics and bootup-tests is fine, but will add
to the cost of the product, and it will never be able to catch up with
all kind of errors that may occur.

I also think that if a customer buys a package, with software
included, and have legitimate reasons for returning the package, he
should also get the price for the software refunded.

I had a bit of a similar situation some days ago, a lengthy
communication between one guy at support and a customer was sent over
to me. The customer apperantly was employed in a "finance
institution", but I discovered that the real problem was that he
didn't really knew the difference between a credit card number and a
bank account number. The tone from the customer had already started
to become a bit angry, in such cases I think it's nice that some other
person takes over. When beeing stuck with problems, it's often an
advantage to get some fresh eyes to look at it.

--
Tobias Brox, Tallinn, Europe

Robert Baer · Jun 8, 2005

Guy Macon wrote:

(Note for those who dislike moderated newsgroups; you may wish
to check your Subject header and edit it to your liking.)

I was searching for failure rates of 9V vs AA batteries today, and
stumbled upon the following web page. I have my own opinion about
how the author of the page should have handled this, but I would
like to hear some other opinions first.

Here it is: [ http://www.shootingsoftware.com/digress.htm ].

I know almost nothing about shooting, and at first had no clue as to

what the equipment was supposed to do , how it was to be used, or how it
worked.
In reading the story, it appears that the unit(s) somehow detects a
moving object (like a bullet) and indicates the speed of that object.
If that interpretation is correct, then i say that is very impressive
for an optical device!
From the interplay, it seems that this equipment is not only rather
specialized, but needs a certain amount of care in use for optimum results.
That is to say, anyone using the equipment should know a) WTF it is,
b) WTF it is *for*, c) HTF to use it, and lastly d) HTF to take care of it.
In short, ignorance and dummies are not allowed (or quiet either).

One bad thing about the interchange, was the apparently long periods
of silence between missives.
I think that after the first long delay, that some reasonable
attempts to "close the loop", ie make for voice communications were in
order.
As most electronic technicians or engineers know, excessive delays in
a feedback loop can cause oscillations - the equivalent of undesirable
squeals in the loudspeaker and the breaking of eardrums.

John Larkin · Jun 8, 2005

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 03:52:06 CST, Guy Macon
<_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote:

(Note for those who dislike moderated newsgroups; you may wish
to check your Subject header and edit it to your liking.)

I was searching for failure rates of 9V vs AA batteries today, and
stumbled upon the following web page. I have my own opinion about
how the author of the page should have handled this, but I would
like to hear some other opinions first.

Here it is: [ http://www.shootingsoftware.com/digress.htm ].

Quit hijacking our newsgroup, you creep.

John

Jim Thompson · Jun 8, 2005

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:15:18 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 03:52:06 CST, Guy Macon
_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote:

(Note for those who dislike moderated newsgroups; you may wish
to check your Subject header and edit it to your liking.)

I was searching for failure rates of 9V vs AA batteries today, and
stumbled upon the following web page. I have my own opinion about
how the author of the page should have handled this, but I would
like to hear some other opinions first.

Here it is: [ http://www.shootingsoftware.com/digress.htm ].

Quit hijacking our newsgroup, you creep.

John

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Guy Macon · Jun 8, 2005

Tobias Brox wrote:

I also think that if a customer buys a package, with software
included, and have legitimate reasons for returning the package, he
should also get the price for the software refunded.

I agree. The reason for limiting returns on opened software is to
prevent someone from buying it, making a copies of software and
manuals, then returning it for a refund.

John Fields · Jun 8, 2005

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:24:45 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:15:18 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 03:52:06 CST, Guy Macon
_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote:

Gee, John, If you'd stop replying to Guy the "hijacking" would cease.

Just give him the ctrl-K and be done with him.

---
Gee, Jim, not everyone wants to bury their head in the sand.

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

Jim Thompson · Jun 8, 2005

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:08:05 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:24:45 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:15:18 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 03:52:06 CST, Guy Macon
_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote:

Gee, John, If you'd stop replying to Guy the "hijacking" would cease.

Just give him the ctrl-K and be done with him.

---
Gee, Jim, not everyone wants to bury their head in the sand.

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

John Larkin · Jun 8, 2005

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:15:52 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:08:05 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:24:45 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:15:18 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 03:52:06 CST, Guy Macon
_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote:

Gee, John, If you'd stop replying to Guy the "hijacking" would cease.

Just give him the ctrl-K and be done with him.

---
Gee, Jim, not everyone wants to bury their head in the sand.

Gee, John, We don't have any sand here in (Sonoran Desert) Arizona,
but I understand there's plenty in Austin ;-)

Well, they can't spare any. They need it to sop up all the beer they
spill, and to catch the batshit.

John

Frank Bemelman · Jun 8, 2005

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> schreef in
bericht news:ktnea11u4mk5f1u0b64efcnflu3i9relcu@4ax.com...

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 03:52:06 CST, Guy Macon
_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote:

(Note for those who dislike moderated newsgroups; you may wish
to check your Subject header and edit it to your liking.)

I was searching for failure rates of 9V vs AA batteries today, and
stumbled upon the following web page. I have my own opinion about
how the author of the page should have handled this, but I would
like to hear some other opinions first.

Here it is: [ http://www.shootingsoftware.com/digress.htm ].

Quit hijacking our newsgroup, you creep.

Damn, the fucking bastard did it again. Seems I've replied
twice on a crosspost to prod-dev.

This Guy Macon should be hanged by his balls.

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and 'invalid' when replying by email)

Jim Thompson · Jun 8, 2005

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:10:41 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:15:52 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:08:05 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:24:45 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:15:18 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 03:52:06 CST, Guy Macon
_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote:

Gee, John, If you'd stop replying to Guy the "hijacking" would cease.

Just give him the ctrl-K and be done with him.

---
Gee, Jim, not everyone wants to bury their head in the sand.

Gee, John, We don't have any sand here in (Sonoran Desert) Arizona,
but I understand there's plenty in Austin ;-)

Well, they can't spare any. They need it to sop up all the beer they
spill, and to catch the batshit.

John

Guano... isn't that what Texans put on their tacos ?

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

John Smith · Jun 8, 2005

People who work in retail for low pay need to be insulted--heck, they
should be flogged in public--that is one of the worst jobs I can imagine
and you are a fool to do it if you aren't paid DAMN WELL for it...
People can't help but notice you are a fool for doing it--and treat you
as you deserve--since when you have taken enough of this abuse, you
ABUSE THE CLIENTS/CUSTOMERS back--it can all be overlooked, just a job
related hazard... <grin>

John

"Guy Macon" <_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote in message
news:11adaupdg0op8b5@corp.supernews.com...

(Note for those who dislike moderated newsgroups; you may wish
to check your Subject header and edit it to your liking.)

I was searching for failure rates of 9V vs AA batteries today, and
stumbled upon the following web page. I have my own opinion about
how the author of the page should have handled this, but I would
like to hear some other opinions first.

Here it is: [ http://www.shootingsoftware.com/digress.htm ].

Guy Macon · Jun 8, 2005

John Smith wrote:

People who work in retail for low pay need to be insulted--heck, they
should be flogged in public--that is one of the worst jobs I can imagine
and you are a fool to do it if you aren't paid DAMN WELL for it...
People can't help but notice you are a fool for doing it--and treat you
as you deserve--since when you have taken enough of this abuse, you
ABUSE THE CLIENTS/CUSTOMERS back--it can all be overlooked, just a job
related hazard... <grin

Very insightful. I think you hit the nail on the head. It's a
classic positive feedback loop.

(BTW, I saw your other tries, but couldn't approve them and still
keep my promise to keep the topic at least somewhat related to
product development. I hope that this doesn't keep you from posting
things that *are* at least somewhat related to product development;
That was a really good observation about retail.)

Winfield Hill · Jun 9, 2005

Guy Macon wrote...

John Smith wrote:

People who work in retail for low pay need to be insulted--heck,
they should be flogged in public--that is one of the worst jobs I
can imagine and you are a fool to do it if you aren't paid DAMN
WELL for it...
People can't help but notice you are a fool for doing it--and treat
you as you deserve--since when you have taken enough of this abuse,
you ABUSE THE CLIENTS/CUSTOMERS back--it can all be overlooked,
just a job related hazard... <grin

Excuse me, what a bunch of disrespectful P.O.S. towards those poor
folks who have to take what they can get by way of employment.

Very insightful. I think you hit the nail on the head. It's a
classic positive feedback loop.

(BTW, I saw your other tries, but couldn't approve them and still
keep my promise to keep the topic at least somewhat related to
product development. I hope that this doesn't keep you from posting
things that *are* at least somewhat related to product development;
That was a really good observation about retail.)

Hold it, Guy, are you saying this is a misc.business.product-dev post?
The headers don't show it as anything other than a bog-standard s.e.d.
post, which doesn't need, nor tolerate, your personal "approval." Can
you tell us what's going on here with this cross-contamination stuff?

--
Thanks,
- Win

John Smith · Jun 9, 2005

Winfield:

I am more than qualified into making such statements--although 52 now, I
once was 17 with a job in retail--more than one retail job as a matter
of fact--I stand behind all I have said--although it ain't pretty--it is
TRUE!

Warmest regards,
John
"Winfield Hill" <hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote in
message news:d885hi025dp@drn.newsguy.com...

Guy Macon wrote...

John Smith wrote:

People who work in retail for low pay need to be insulted--heck,
they should be flogged in public--that is one of the worst jobs I
can imagine and you are a fool to do it if you aren't paid DAMN
WELL for it...
People can't help but notice you are a fool for doing it--and treat
you as you deserve--since when you have taken enough of this abuse,
you ABUSE THE CLIENTS/CUSTOMERS back--it can all be overlooked,
just a job related hazard... <grin

Excuse me, what a bunch of disrespectful P.O.S. towards those poor
folks who have to take what they can get by way of employment.

Very insightful. I think you hit the nail on the head. It's a
classic positive feedback loop.

(BTW, I saw your other tries, but couldn't approve them and still
keep my promise to keep the topic at least somewhat related to
product development. I hope that this doesn't keep you from posting
things that *are* at least somewhat related to product development;
That was a really good observation about retail.)

Hold it, Guy, are you saying this is a misc.business.product-dev post?
The headers don't show it as anything other than a bog-standard s.e.d.
post, which doesn't need, nor tolerate, your personal "approval." Can
you tell us what's going on here with this cross-contamination stuff?

--
Thanks,
- Win

Kelly Hall · Jun 9, 2005

Robert Baer wrote:

In short, ignorance and dummies are not allowed (or quiet either).

That's a great idea, but you will leave an awful lot of money on the
table if you decide that you'll only sell to smart people.

Speaking as a propeller-headed engineer, I'm very impressed by companies
who have products and marketing that allow the folks on the other half
of the median intelligence line to see the need for, buy, and be happy
with a product.

Kelly

Kelly Hall · Jun 9, 2005

Joel Kolstad wrote:

The whiny customer does ask for many things that aren't reasonable in an
inexpensive product (full power-on self tests), although it's also true that
in many cases a lot of self-diagnostics can be added without changing the BOM
price at all by just adding more software. Of course I have no idea if that's
the case for the particular product in question here.

Unless I've been mislead for the last couple of decades, software is one
of the most expensive items on the BOM. To quote viciously from Jack
Ganssle's column:
http://www.embedded.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=161600589

==
Firmware is the most expensive thing in the universe. In his book
Augustine's Laws, Lockheed Martin's Chairman Norman Augustine relates a
tale of trouble for manufacturers of fighter aircraft.6 By the late '70s
it was no longer possible to add things to these planes because adding
new functionality meant increasing the aircraft's weight, which would
impair performance. However, the aircraft vendors needed to add
something to boost their profits. They searched for something, anything,
that weighed nothing but cost a lot. And they found itfirmware! It was
the answer to their dreams.

The F-4 was the hot fighter of the '60s. In 2004 dollars these airplanes
cost about $20 million each and had essentially no firmware. Today's
F-22, just coming into production, runs a cool $257 million per copy.
Half of that price tag is firmware.

The DoD contractors succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
==

That said, I think POST code ought to be nearly free because the
software folks should have written that code early on if only to verify
that the first runs of the hardware performed adequately. Better to
ship that stuff, hidden from the user, unless you absolutely have no
room in the ROMs for it.

Kelly

Handling a "bad" customer

Guy Macon

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Robert Baer

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Joel Kolstad

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Ian Stirling

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Tobias Brox

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Robert Baer

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John Larkin

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Jim Thompson

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Guy Macon

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John Fields

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Jim Thompson

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John Larkin

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Frank Bemelman

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Jim Thompson

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John Smith

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Guy Macon

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Winfield Hill

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John Smith

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