Half of Phoenix, Arizona, would end up in the ER if the city has a blackout during a heat wave...

[Fred Bloggs]

From the article:

\"I describe this as probably the greatest climate-related hazard we can imagine: a blackout during a heat wave,\" Brian Stone Jr., the lead author of the study and a professor in the School of City and Regional Planning at the Georgia Institute of Technology, told The New York Times.

This becomes more likely as the grid is run at near overload during extreme temperatures. Stuff starts breaking. And this little to do with the source of energy be it nuclear, fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc. Quite a few other overpopulated cities are in the same straits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-phoenix-arizona-er-city-blackout-heat-wave-study-2023-5

 

[a a]

On Wednesday, 24 May 2023 at 18:53:45 UTC+2, Fred Bloggs wrote:

From the article:

\"I describe this as probably the greatest climate-related hazard we can imagine: a blackout during a heat wave,\" Brian Stone Jr., the lead author of the study and a professor in the School of City and Regional Planning at the Georgia Institute of Technology, told The New York Times.

This becomes more likely as the grid is run at near overload during extreme temperatures. Stuff starts breaking. And this little to do with the source of energy be it nuclear, fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc. Quite a few other overpopulated cities are in the same straits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-phoenix-arizona-er-city-blackout-heat-wave-study-2023-5

don\'t spread your fake

US Department of Justice should control social media to remove every fake immediately

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 12:53:45 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:

From the article:

\"I describe this as probably the greatest climate-related hazard we can imagine: a blackout during a heat wave,\" Brian Stone Jr., the lead author of the study and a professor in the School of City and Regional Planning at the Georgia Institute of Technology, told The New York Times.

This becomes more likely as the grid is run at near overload during extreme temperatures. Stuff starts breaking. And this little to do with the source of energy be it nuclear, fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc. Quite a few other overpopulated cities are in the same straits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-phoenix-arizona-er-city-blackout-heat-wave-study-2023-5

What stuff would be run at overload? I\'m not aware of electrical generating equipment that is run at overload levels during high demand periods. Do they run nuclear plants at 110%? How about gas turbines? Wind turbines?

I think the first priority in the electrical generating system is not unlike doctors, \"At least let us do no harm.\"

The normal way to deal with this is rolling blackouts. You have to wonder, how the hell we got into this situation where shortages of electric power are commonplace.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 24 May 2023 09:53:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

From the article:

\"I describe this as probably the greatest climate-related hazard we can imagine: a blackout during a heat wave,\" Brian Stone Jr., the lead author of the study and a professor in the School of City and Regional Planning at the Georgia Institute of Technology, told The New York Times.

This becomes more likely as the grid is run at near overload during extreme temperatures. Stuff starts breaking. And this little to do with the source of energy be it nuclear, fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc. Quite a few other overpopulated cities are in the same straits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-phoenix-arizona-er-city-blackout-heat-wave-study-2023-5

That sounds extreme. People lived there before a/c was invented. Sit
in the tub or pool or take a cold shower. Or sit in an air conditioned
car. Eat all the ice cream in the freezer. Bring back wet tee-shirt
contests.

But enjoy the idea of mass deaths.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 2:38:31 PM UTC-4, a a wrote:

On Wednesday, 24 May 2023 at 18:53:45 UTC+2, Fred Bloggs wrote:
From the article:

\"I describe this as probably the greatest climate-related hazard we can imagine: a blackout during a heat wave,\" Brian Stone Jr., the lead author of the study and a professor in the School of City and Regional Planning at the Georgia Institute of Technology, told The New York Times.

This becomes more likely as the grid is run at near overload during extreme temperatures. Stuff starts breaking. And this little to do with the source of energy be it nuclear, fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc. Quite a few other overpopulated cities are in the same straits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-phoenix-arizona-er-city-blackout-heat-wave-study-2023-5
don\'t spread your fake

US Department of Justice should control social media to remove every fake immediately

That would put the PRC mouthpiece outlets on permanent ban.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 3:44:51 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 24 May 2023 09:53:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

From the article:

\"I describe this as probably the greatest climate-related hazard we can imagine: a blackout during a heat wave,\" Brian Stone Jr., the lead author of the study and a professor in the School of City and Regional Planning at the Georgia Institute of Technology, told The New York Times.

This becomes more likely as the grid is run at near overload during extreme temperatures. Stuff starts breaking. And this little to do with the source of energy be it nuclear, fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc. Quite a few other overpopulated cities are in the same straits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-phoenix-arizona-er-city-blackout-heat-wave-study-2023-5
That sounds extreme. People lived there before a/c was invented.

And before the extreme weather events due to global warming. They mostly lived in really thick walled adobe structures, the thermal mass of which low pass filters the daytime highs to manageable interior temps. BUT, even that age old system fails when the night time temperatures stay very high, as in upper 80s and 90s.

Sit
in the tub or pool or take a cold shower. Or sit in an air conditioned
car. Eat all the ice cream in the freezer. Bring back wet tee-shirt
contests.

You can\'t keep that up for days, which is what the original study was talking about.

But enjoy the idea of mass deaths.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 3:23:31 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 12:53:45 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
From the article:

\"I describe this as probably the greatest climate-related hazard we can imagine: a blackout during a heat wave,\" Brian Stone Jr., the lead author of the study and a professor in the School of City and Regional Planning at the Georgia Institute of Technology, told The New York Times.

This becomes more likely as the grid is run at near overload during extreme temperatures. Stuff starts breaking. And this little to do with the source of energy be it nuclear, fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc. Quite a few other overpopulated cities are in the same straits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-phoenix-arizona-er-city-blackout-heat-wave-study-2023-5
What stuff would be run at overload? I\'m not aware of electrical generating equipment that is run at overload levels during high demand periods. Do they run nuclear plants at 110%? How about gas turbines? Wind turbines?

The phrase used was \"near overload.\"

Apparently you\'re oblivious to the concept of environmental operating conditions, things like ambient temperature, bringing the overload to the equipment. What might be a perfectly manageable power demand at 90o, becomes a perfectly unmanageable demand at 120o.

The normal way to deal with this is rolling blackouts. You have to wonder, how the hell we got into this situation where shortages of electric power are commonplace.

Rolling blackouts redistribute the misery. ASHRAE design standard used to size an A/C for 100% duty at the 3% high temperature of record. When you start hitting temperatures at the 0.3% extreme or less, things start to get uncomfortable and even unhealthy. Even a reasonably insulated residential is going to see about 0.7o temperature rise per each 1% reduction in duty cycle. This stuff with highs of 122o is going to make a lot of indoors above 90o. Then, because of the increased operating pressures, A/C capacity performance degrades specific to the manufacturer, provides less cooling rate, even when it does have the power to run.

Don\'t ask for any links or any other substantiation to any of those comments, because you\'re not getting them.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

onsdag den 24. maj 2023 kl. 21.44.51 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:

On Wed, 24 May 2023 09:53:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

From the article:

\"I describe this as probably the greatest climate-related hazard we can imagine: a blackout during a heat wave,\" Brian Stone Jr., the lead author of the study and a professor in the School of City and Regional Planning at the Georgia Institute of Technology, told The New York Times.

This becomes more likely as the grid is run at near overload during extreme temperatures. Stuff starts breaking. And this little to do with the source of energy be it nuclear, fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc. Quite a few other overpopulated cities are in the same straits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-phoenix-arizona-er-city-blackout-heat-wave-study-2023-5
That sounds extreme. People lived there before a/c was invented. Sit
in the tub or pool or take a cold shower. Or sit in an air conditioned
car. Eat all the ice cream in the freezer. Bring back wet tee-shirt
contests.

how \"cold\" is the pool when the temperature is close to 100F day and night?

I moved to Phoenix for while in the summer of 2001, the first few days the ac in the apartment
was broken, that wasn\'t comfortable but it wasn\'t that bad.

worse was that every store seems to think they need to have arctic temperatures, so it is hot outside
and freezing cold inside

 

[Don Y]

On 5/24/2023 2:14 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> how \"cold\" is the pool when the temperature is close to 100F day and night?

Easily 90+F. If you cover it (imagine a giant sheet of bubble wrap)
you can get it to a point where it is almost uncomfortable to swim.

The bigger problem is LEAVING the water. With an RH of 10%, all of that
water on your body instantly evaporates -- leaving you COLD... in the 100+F
degree air!

Worse, if you wear a garment (to minimize skin cancer risks), the garment
holds MORE of the water, prolonging the evaporative cooling effect. You
will literally shake from the cold!

I moved to Phoenix for while in the summer of 2001, the first few days the ac in the apartment
was broken, that wasn\'t comfortable but it wasn\'t that bad.

Apartments tend to have little outside exposure. One side of our house is
essentially glass (it\'s always sunny and clear outside, why wouldn\'t we want
to bring that into the house?). Simply blocking the sunlight has a pronounced
effect on heat gain.

And, depending on time of year (Summer vs. Monsoon vs. any of the three
other *days*), the RH can be low enough that simply getting out of the
direct sunlight makes a marked difference. You can hold an outstretched
arm partially in sun and partially in shadow and *feel* the line of
demarcation on your skin with your eyes closed.

Summer (April-June) is typically very dry and offers a reprieve at
night. E.g., we\'re seeing 60F for nighttime lows and it\'s almost June.
That will climb to 90F at midnight (the low, of course, always occurs
just after sunrise) but you\'ll still see folks wearing long sleeve
shirts (and older women wearing sweaters) as a dry 90F can feel chilly
(esp when the daytime temps were 105-115F.

Monsoon? Move someplace dry -- like the Pacific Northwest!

worse was that every store seems to think they need to have arctic temperatures, so it is hot outside
and freezing cold inside

Because they want you to STAY inside (spending money as you do).
You don\'t think they would incur the expense for the health and
well being of their *employees*...?

The architecture in older parts of town is more classic: secluded
courtyards with a \"water feature\" to help cool the air.

Businesses will spray (\"mist\") water into the air in outdoor
eating areas to help lower the air temperature (and folks wonder
why we have a water problem??). The mist is intended to evaporate
before coming into contact with the diners so there\'s no comfort
downside.

The traditional solution is The Siesta; you simply stop doing stuff
during the hottest parts of the day.

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 4:52:52 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 3:23:31 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 12:53:45 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
From the article:

\"I describe this as probably the greatest climate-related hazard we can imagine: a blackout during a heat wave,\" Brian Stone Jr., the lead author of the study and a professor in the School of City and Regional Planning at the Georgia Institute of Technology, told The New York Times.

This becomes more likely as the grid is run at near overload during extreme temperatures. Stuff starts breaking. And this little to do with the source of energy be it nuclear, fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc. Quite a few other overpopulated cities are in the same straits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-phoenix-arizona-er-city-blackout-heat-wave-study-2023-5
What stuff would be run at overload? I\'m not aware of electrical generating equipment that is run at overload levels during high demand periods. Do they run nuclear plants at 110%? How about gas turbines? Wind turbines?
The phrase used was \"near overload.\"

Apparently you\'re oblivious to the concept of environmental operating conditions, things like ambient temperature, bringing the overload to the equipment. What might be a perfectly manageable power demand at 90o, becomes a perfectly unmanageable demand at 120o.

If the operating temperature is 120°F, then it has a rated capability. It should be operated at no more than that level or big problems start to happen. I

Is this a hard concept for you to understand?

The normal way to deal with this is rolling blackouts. You have to wonder, how the hell we got into this situation where shortages of electric power are commonplace.
Rolling blackouts redistribute the misery.

Yes, exactly, misery and not catastrophe.


> ASHRAE design standard used to size an A/C for 100% duty at the 3% high temperature of record. When you start hitting temperatures at the 0.3% extreme or less, things start to get uncomfortable and even unhealthy. Even a reasonably insulated residential is going to see about 0.7o temperature rise per each 1% reduction in duty cycle. This stuff with highs of 122o is going to make a lot of indoors above 90o. Then, because of the increased operating pressures, A/C capacity performance degrades specific to the manufacturer, provides less cooling rate, even when it does have the power to run.

Not really my problem. The solutions are obvious, even if uncomfortable. I don\'t know why you are banging on about this. Do you have a point?


> Don\'t ask for any links or any other substantiation to any of those comments, because you\'re not getting them.

No one expects them from you, so most know better than to ask. It\'s not like you actually have read them yourself.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 5:14:57 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

onsdag den 24. maj 2023 kl. 21.44.51 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
On Wed, 24 May 2023 09:53:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

From the article:

\"I describe this as probably the greatest climate-related hazard we can imagine: a blackout during a heat wave,\" Brian Stone Jr., the lead author of the study and a professor in the School of City and Regional Planning at the Georgia Institute of Technology, told The New York Times.

This becomes more likely as the grid is run at near overload during extreme temperatures. Stuff starts breaking. And this little to do with the source of energy be it nuclear, fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc. Quite a few other overpopulated cities are in the same straits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-phoenix-arizona-er-city-blackout-heat-wave-study-2023-5
That sounds extreme. People lived there before a/c was invented. Sit
in the tub or pool or take a cold shower. Or sit in an air conditioned
car. Eat all the ice cream in the freezer. Bring back wet tee-shirt
contests.
how \"cold\" is the pool when the temperature is close to 100F day and night?

What is nice about pools, is simply getting wet. I have a place at a lake where the surface water can be uncomfortably warm at the peak of the summer.. But getting in and out is still better than just being hot.

I moved to Phoenix for while in the summer of 2001, the first few days the ac in the apartment
was broken, that wasn\'t comfortable but it wasn\'t that bad.

worse was that every store seems to think they need to have arctic temperatures, so it is hot outside
and freezing cold inside

I bet it\'s only 75°F inside, which is comfortably cool, but feels cold when coming in from the outside.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[boB]

On Wed, 24 May 2023 12:44:34 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 24 May 2023 09:53:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

From the article:

\"I describe this as probably the greatest climate-related hazard we can imagine: a blackout during a heat wave,\" Brian Stone Jr., the lead author of the study and a professor in the School of City and Regional Planning at the Georgia Institute of Technology, told The New York Times.

This becomes more likely as the grid is run at near overload during extreme temperatures. Stuff starts breaking. And this little to do with the source of energy be it nuclear, fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc. Quite a few other overpopulated cities are in the same straits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-phoenix-arizona-er-city-blackout-heat-wave-study-2023-5

That sounds extreme. People lived there before a/c was invented. Sit
in the tub or pool or take a cold shower. Or sit in an air conditioned
car. Eat all the ice cream in the freezer. Bring back wet tee-shirt
contests.

But enjoy the idea of mass deaths.

Solar/PV/batteries/inverter can keep the A/C running. And no
batteries needed during the daytime for that.

If it is hot there, then the sun will be shining at least.

Just make sure the A/C is in good running order too !

boB

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 4:38:31 AM UTC+10, a a wrote:

On Wednesday, 24 May 2023 at 18:53:45 UTC+2, Fred Bloggs wrote:
From the article:

\"I describe this as probably the greatest climate-related hazard we can imagine: a blackout during a heat wave,\" Brian Stone Jr., the lead author of the study and a professor in the School of City and Regional Planning at the Georgia Institute of Technology, told The New York Times.

This becomes more likely as the grid is run at near overload during extreme temperatures. Stuff starts breaking. And this little to do with the source of energy be it nuclear, fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc. Quite a few other overpopulated cities are in the same straits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-phoenix-arizona-er-city-blackout-heat-wave-study-2023-5
don\'t spread your fake

US Department of Justice should control social media to remove every fake immediately.

That would get rid of you.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Don Y]

On 5/24/2023 6:33 PM, boB wrote:
> Solar/PV/batteries/inverter can keep the A/C running.

Only a room sized unit or a complete PV installation that
can safely \"island\". Most single-family homes, here, have
\"open\" floor plans. So, you either pick *a* bedroom OR
cool 80% of the living space.

If you opt for a bedroom, then you likely have to use
a portable ACbrrr -- and extension cords.

[We\'ve thought about installing a minisplit just for a
\"special room\" but they are so dreadfully industrial-looking;
which room do you want to make look like a hotel room or
commercial office?]

For folks living in apartments or retirement settings,
they likely have little/no control over what they can/can\'t
do to help themselves (even single family homes have to worry
about HoA regulations regarding noise, perceived fire hazards,
etc.)

Folks in the most affluent areas will just book a room in a
hotel -- assuming they aren\'t already staying at their
\"summer place\".

\"Po\'foke\" often live in low quality duplexes -- block construction
with little/no insulation in walls or (flat) roofs. The walls
absorb the heat and ensure the interior stays warm well into the
night.

[We can tell when summer has arrived by the temperature of the
*floors* -- and \"cold water\" -- from the soil beneath]

> And no batteries needed during the daytime for that.

Fine until the sun sets and it\'s still 90 degrees (until
midnight).

Or, humid. (sort of like a Chicago summer... how many showers
can you take in one day???)

If it is hot there, then the sun will be shining at least.

Just make sure the A/C is in good running order too !

The real problem comes from elderly/fixed income and poor
with little resources. Can you afford NOT to go to work
just because there\'s no power? What if you\'re a landscaper?
Pool maintenance? Construction? etc. No *need* for power
to do those jobs and no respite from the heat when you get
home at night!

A single day/event is not a problem. It\'s just a nuisance.
But, when it starts to drag on and you\'ve already *been*
suffering through the peak cooling season (without cooling),
it takes a toll on those populations.

[I hauled 20T of decomposed granite into the back yard
on a day where the temperatures hit 117F. I didn\'t realize it
was abnormally hot (dry season) because I wasn\'t \"sticky\"
from perspiration -- but, did wonder how I could drink a half
gallon of water EVERY HOUR and *never* pee!]

 

[a a]

>

Yet one more #veryStupidByLowIQaa post.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 8:36:13 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 4:52:52 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 3:23:31 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 12:53:45 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
From the article:

\"I describe this as probably the greatest climate-related hazard we can imagine: a blackout during a heat wave,\" Brian Stone Jr., the lead author of the study and a professor in the School of City and Regional Planning at the Georgia Institute of Technology, told The New York Times.

This becomes more likely as the grid is run at near overload during extreme temperatures. Stuff starts breaking. And this little to do with the source of energy be it nuclear, fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc. Quite a few other overpopulated cities are in the same straits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-phoenix-arizona-er-city-blackout-heat-wave-study-2023-5
What stuff would be run at overload? I\'m not aware of electrical generating equipment that is run at overload levels during high demand periods. Do they run nuclear plants at 110%? How about gas turbines? Wind turbines?
The phrase used was \"near overload.\"

Apparently you\'re oblivious to the concept of environmental operating conditions, things like ambient temperature, bringing the overload to the equipment. What might be a perfectly manageable power demand at 90o, becomes a perfectly unmanageable demand at 120o.
If the operating temperature is 120°F, then it has a rated capability. It should be operated at no more than that level or big problems start to happen. I

Is this a hard concept for you to understand?

Wow- what a genius remark. You\'re the only one around here who runs into a brick wall over the slightest little thing.

High ambient air and water temperatures reduce both the efficiency and available generating capacity of thermoelectric
power plants[77, 38]. Coal, nuclear, concentrated solar power (CSP), biomass, geothermal, and some natural gas power
9
plants use steam turbines that are affected by higher coolant temperatures, because the efficiency of thermal electricity
generation is proportional to the temperature difference between the steam inlet and the condenser temperature[30, 59,
46, 42, 48]. For plants with once-through cooling systems, hotter cooling waters remove less heat from the plants’
steam cycle, decreasing the system’s cooling efficiency[44]. Efficiency losses are generally more pronounced in wetrecirculating and air-cooled systems[13]. Capacity deratings also occur because the higher ambient air temperatures
result in lower mass density of intake air, resulting in less fuel mass that can be ignited, and therefore reduced power
output. Similar effects apply to natural gas combustion turbines and natural gas combined cycle plants[9, 64, 26].
Published information on the performance of thermoelectric generation with respect to ambient temperature conditions
can be found in technical publications,[27] empirical studies,[30, 59, 46, 42, 48, 44, 13, 9, 64] and is sometimes
included in publications from the original equipment manufacturer[104].
Response functions are generally linear, in the form of a constant decrease in power output per degree change above a
reference temperature. Some studies develop separate response functions for efficiency loss and capacity derating[52].
For example, one study conducted by the California Energy Commission (CEC) found that natural gas combined cycle
power plant capacity decreases by 0.3-0.5 percent for each 1◦C increase above a reference temperature of 15◦C[97].
The CEC study developed separate temperature-response functions for NGCC and NGCT plants based on geographic
region to account for location-specific factors, in addition to temperature.. They found that plants operating in mountainous regions had lower reference operating capacity owing to the decreased ambient air density at higher elevations.
Similar studies examining the temperature response of nuclear power plant output have found a decrease of approximately 0.1-0.5 percent for every 1◦C increase in ambient air temperature[30, 59, 46, 90]. In addition, a rise in ambient
air temperature might give rise to higher temperatures at working locations within the power plant, influencing the
proper functioning of safety related equipment like the emergency diesel generators[90].
Operating temperature also decreases both the electrical efficiency and the power output of a solar photovoltaic (PV)
module. The traditional relationship between the output and operating temperature of a solar cell is typically given
by a linear function expression the solar energy conversion efficiency as a function of cell operating temperature[36].
For example, Radziemska[91] finds that power output decreases by 0.66% per 1◦C increase above a reference temperature of 25◦C for crystalline silicon solar cells. However, the operating temperature of the solar cell depends on
a range of factors, including ambient air temperature, wind speed, solar radiation flux/irradiance, and material and
system-dependent properties. While establishing a direct relationship between solar PV performance and ambient
temperature and other weather variables is challenging, solar PV temperature response functions have been reviewed
and presented[29].
Heat waves can also affect electricity generators, potentially causing physical damage above a certain temperature
threshold or forcing curtailment to avoid safety hazards[16]. One approach for assessing generator vulnerabilities to
heat waves assigns each generator a heat wave vulnerability level based on its geographic location (coastal or inland),
the type of generator (thermal or other) and the cooling method (presence of a cooling tower)[16].
High water temperatures can also cause threshold impacts. For example, plants may be forced to curtail operations
partially or completely when the intake cooling water exceeds operating design temperatures[103]. Additionally,
plants are typically not allowed to discharge cooling water above a certain temperature, to avoid harming fish and
other wildlife. Thermal discharge limits vary by world geopolitical region but in the U.S., surface water is typically
required to remain under 32.23◦C. Plants that use once-through cooling technologies typically return water to the
source at a temperature that is 8 to 12◦C warmer than the original intake water temperature[61].

Transformers and power lines are particularly vulnerable to high ambient air temperature. Persistent extreme temperatures can lead to deratings, shorter lifetimes, and abrupt failure of these components[111]. The response of efficiency
and maximum capacity of power transformers to ambient temperature is usually represented as a linear relationship
with varying inclinations (i.e. slopes). In general, the average power output decreases 0.7% to 1% per 1◦C increase in
air temperature, above a reference temperature (usually taken to be 20◦C)[57, 63, 105].
Additionally, the lifetime of a transformer can be significantly degraded by high ambient temperatures. The lifetime of
a transformer is limited by the “hot spot” temperature, the highest temperature within the windings of the transformer,
which can be much greater than the ambient temperature. For example, a 30◦C ambient temperature can correspond to
a 120◦C hot spot temperature[97]. However, the hotspot temperature is also affected by total load and other factors such
as wind, which affect the transformer’s ability to shed excess heat.. Over time, the insulation in a transformer breaks
down, eventually leading to transformer failure. Exposure to high temperatures can accelerate this aging process.
Empirical studies of transformer lifetimes have found that an increase of 7◦C in the hotspot temperature can double
the aging acceleration factor[14]. In some cases, the combination of extreme heat and increased demand for electricity
for cooling can lead to catastrophic failure, as when 2,000 distribution line transformers failed during a July 2006 heat
wave in California[109].
High temperatures also increase transmission and distribution line losses and reduce carrying capacity. Average electricity transmission and distribution losses are about 5% in the United States[32]. The resistance of power lines
increases with temperature, leading to greater resistive loss[47]; however, the impact of ambient temperature on resistive losses is generally considered to be negligible compared to impacts on total carrying capacity[97]. The line
capacity is limited by the maximum normal operating temperature, typically 80◦C. The operating temperature of the
line depends on several factors, including the ambient temperature, current in the line, and wind speed, which affects
the ability of the line to get rid of excess heat, and is generally much higher than the ambient temperature. (The IEEE
Standard for Calculating the Current-Temperature of Bare Overhead Conductors (IEEE 738-2006) gives line operators
a method for modeling transmission line temperature.) Higher line operating temperatures can also cause excessive sag
of power lines due to thermal expansion[77]. Sagging power lines pose many risks, including fire and safety hazards,
and increased chance of lines contacting trees or the ground. In order to avoid excessive sag and maintain operating
temperatures within design limits, system operators may manually reduce line capacity[58]. For example, the CEC
study found that an ambient temperature of 37.78◦C resulted in 7-8% capacity loss below normal design ratings[97].

The normal way to deal with this is rolling blackouts. You have to wonder, how the hell we got into this situation where shortages of electric power are commonplace.
Rolling blackouts redistribute the misery.
Yes, exactly, misery and not catastrophe.
ASHRAE design standard used to size an A/C for 100% duty at the 3% high temperature of record. When you start hitting temperatures at the 0.3% extreme or less, things start to get uncomfortable and even unhealthy. Even a reasonably insulated residential is going to see about 0.7o temperature rise per each 1% reduction in duty cycle. This stuff with highs of 122o is going to make a lot of indoors above 90o. Then, because of the increased operating pressures, A/C capacity performance degrades specific to the manufacturer, provides less cooling rate, even when it does have the power to run.
Not really my problem. The solutions are obvious, even if uncomfortable. I don\'t know why you are banging on about this. Do you have a point?
Don\'t ask for any links or any other substantiation to any of those comments, because you\'re not getting them.
No one expects them from you, so most know better than to ask. It\'s not like you actually have read them yourself.

It\'s obvious by now that you don\'t know anything about anything. You\'re about as worthless as they get.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 12:08:53 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 8:36:13 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 4:52:52 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 3:23:31 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 12:53:45 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
From the article:

\"I describe this as probably the greatest climate-related hazard we can imagine: a blackout during a heat wave,\" Brian Stone Jr., the lead author of the study and a professor in the School of City and Regional Planning at the Georgia Institute of Technology, told The New York Times.

This becomes more likely as the grid is run at near overload during extreme temperatures. Stuff starts breaking. And this little to do with the source of energy be it nuclear, fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc. Quite a few other overpopulated cities are in the same straits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-phoenix-arizona-er-city-blackout-heat-wave-study-2023-5
What stuff would be run at overload? I\'m not aware of electrical generating equipment that is run at overload levels during high demand periods. Do they run nuclear plants at 110%? How about gas turbines? Wind turbines?
The phrase used was \"near overload.\"

Apparently you\'re oblivious to the concept of environmental operating conditions, things like ambient temperature, bringing the overload to the equipment. What might be a perfectly manageable power demand at 90o, becomes a perfectly unmanageable demand at 120o.
If the operating temperature is 120°F, then it has a rated capability. It should be operated at no more than that level or big problems start to happen. I

Is this a hard concept for you to understand?
Wow- what a genius remark. You\'re the only one around here who runs into a brick wall over the slightest little thing.

High ambient air and water temperatures reduce both the efficiency and available generating capacity of thermoelectric
power plants[77, 38]. Coal, nuclear, concentrated solar power (CSP), biomass, geothermal, and some natural gas power
9
plants use steam turbines that are affected by higher coolant temperatures, because the efficiency of thermal electricity
generation is proportional to the temperature difference between the steam inlet and the condenser temperature[30, 59,
46, 42, 48]. For plants with once-through cooling systems, hotter cooling waters remove less heat from the plants’
steam cycle, decreasing the system’s cooling efficiency[44]. Efficiency losses are generally more pronounced in wet recirculating and air-cooled systems[13]. Capacity deratings also occur because the higher ambient air temperatures
result in lower mass density of intake air, resulting in less fuel mass that can be ignited, and therefore reduced power
output. Similar effects apply to natural gas combustion turbines and natural gas combined cycle plants[9, 64, 26].
Published information on the performance of thermoelectric generation with respect to ambient temperature conditions
can be found in technical publications,[27] empirical studies,[30, 59, 46, 42, 48, 44, 13, 9, 64] and is sometimes
included in publications from the original equipment manufacturer[104].
Response functions are generally linear, in the form of a constant decrease in power output per degree change above a
reference temperature. Some studies develop separate response functions for efficiency loss and capacity derating[52].
For example, one study conducted by the California Energy Commission (CEC) found that natural gas combined cycle
power plant capacity decreases by 0.3-0.5 percent for each 1◦C increase above a reference temperature of 15◦C[97].
The CEC study developed separate temperature-response functions for NGCC and NGCT plants based on geographic
region to account for location-specific factors, in addition to temperature. They found that plants operating in moun tainous regions had lower reference operating capacity owing to the decreased ambient air density at higher elevations.
Similar studies examining the temperature response of nuclear power plant output have found a decrease of approxi mately 0.1-0.5 percent for every 1◦C increase in ambient air temperature[30, 59, 46, 90]. In addition, a rise in ambient
air temperature might give rise to higher temperatures at working locations within the power plant, influencing the
proper functioning of safety related equipment like the emergency diesel generators[90].
Operating temperature also decreases both the electrical efficiency and the power output of a solar photovoltaic (PV)
module. The traditional relationship between the output and operating temperature of a solar cell is typically given
by a linear function expression the solar energy conversion efficiency as a function of cell operating temperature[36].
For example, Radziemska[91] finds that power output decreases by 0.66% per 1◦C increase above a reference tem perature of 25◦C for crystalline silicon solar cells. However, the operating temperature of the solar cell depends on
a range of factors, including ambient air temperature, wind speed, solar radiation flux/irradiance, and material and
system-dependent properties. While establishing a direct relationship between solar PV performance and ambient
temperature and other weather variables is challenging, solar PV temperature response functions have been reviewed
and presented[29].
Heat waves can also affect electricity generators, potentially causing physical damage above a certain temperature
threshold or forcing curtailment to avoid safety hazards[16]. One approach for assessing generator vulnerabilities to
heat waves assigns each generator a heat wave vulnerability level based on its geographic location (coastal or inland),
the type of generator (thermal or other) and the cooling method (presence of a cooling tower)[16].
High water temperatures can also cause threshold impacts. For example, plants may be forced to curtail operations
partially or completely when the intake cooling water exceeds operating design temperatures[103]. Additionally,
plants are typically not allowed to discharge cooling water above a certain temperature, to avoid harming fish and
other wildlife. Thermal discharge limits vary by world geopolitical region but in the U.S., surface water is typically
required to remain under 32.23◦C. Plants that use once-through cooling technologies typically return water to the
source at a temperature that is 8 to 12◦C warmer than the original intake water temperature[61].

Transformers and power lines are particularly vulnerable to high ambient air temperature. Persistent extreme temper atures can lead to deratings, shorter lifetimes, and abrupt failure of these components[111]. The response of efficiency
and maximum capacity of power transformers to ambient temperature is usually represented as a linear relationship
with varying inclinations (i.e. slopes). In general, the average power output decreases 0.7% to 1% per 1◦C increase in
air temperature, above a reference temperature (usually taken to be 20◦C)[57, 63, 105].
Additionally, the lifetime of a transformer can be significantly degraded by high ambient temperatures. The lifetime of
a transformer is limited by the “hot spot” temperature, the highest temperature within the windings of the transformer,
which can be much greater than the ambient temperature. For example, a 30◦C ambient temperature can correspond to
a 120◦C hot spot temperature[97]. However, the hotspot temperature is also affected by total load and other factors such
as wind, which affect the transformer’s ability to shed excess heat. Over time, the insulation in a transformer breaks
down, eventually leading to transformer failure. Exposure to high temperatures can accelerate this aging process.
Empirical studies of transformer lifetimes have found that an increase of 7◦C in the hotspot temperature can double
the aging acceleration factor[14]. In some cases, the combination of extreme heat and increased demand for electricity
for cooling can lead to catastrophic failure, as when 2,000 distribution line transformers failed during a July 2006 heat
wave in California[109].
High temperatures also increase transmission and distribution line losses and reduce carrying capacity. Average elec tricity transmission and distribution losses are about 5% in the United States[32]. The resistance of power lines
increases with temperature, leading to greater resistive loss[47]; however, the impact of ambient temperature on re sistive losses is generally considered to be negligible compared to impacts on total carrying capacity[97]. The line
capacity is limited by the maximum normal operating temperature, typically 80◦C. The operating temperature of the
line depends on several factors, including the ambient temperature, current in the line, and wind speed, which affects
the ability of the line to get rid of excess heat, and is generally much higher than the ambient temperature. (The IEEE
Standard for Calculating the Current-Temperature of Bare Overhead Conductors (IEEE 738-2006) gives line operators
a method for modeling transmission line temperature.) Higher line operating temperatures can also cause excessive sag
of power lines due to thermal expansion[77]. Sagging power lines pose many risks, including fire and safety hazards,
and increased chance of lines contacting trees or the ground. In order to avoid excessive sag and maintain operating
temperatures within design limits, system operators may manually reduce line capacity[58]. For example, the CEC
study found that an ambient temperature of 37.78◦C resulted in 7-8% capacity loss below normal design ratings[97].

So, you are saying that there is no equipment designed to generate and supply power in the hot, US southwest? I guess they are screwed!

I\'m sorry you can\'t understand what I\'m saying. The fact that your reply to my short post is the beginning of a dissertation, shows you can\'t grasp the simpler aspects, such as, equipment having ratings for operation over temperature ranges. Nothing you\'ve said, is of value in this context, other than to confirm what I wrote.

The normal way to deal with this is rolling blackouts. You have to wonder, how the hell we got into this situation where shortages of electric power are commonplace.
Rolling blackouts redistribute the misery.
Yes, exactly, misery and not catastrophe.
ASHRAE design standard used to size an A/C for 100% duty at the 3% high temperature of record. When you start hitting temperatures at the 0.3% extreme or less, things start to get uncomfortable and even unhealthy. Even a reasonably insulated residential is going to see about 0.7o temperature rise per each 1% reduction in duty cycle. This stuff with highs of 122o is going to make a lot of indoors above 90o. Then, because of the increased operating pressures, A/C capacity performance degrades specific to the manufacturer, provides less cooling rate, even when it does have the power to run.
Not really my problem. The solutions are obvious, even if uncomfortable.. I don\'t know why you are banging on about this. Do you have a point?
Don\'t ask for any links or any other substantiation to any of those comments, because you\'re not getting them.
No one expects them from you, so most know better than to ask. It\'s not like you actually have read them yourself.
It\'s obvious by now that you don\'t know anything about anything. You\'re about as worthless as they get.

Yes, I am next to the most worthless person in this discussion.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 2:21:50 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 12:08:53 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 8:36:13 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 4:52:52 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 3:23:31 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 12:53:45 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
From the article:

\"I describe this as probably the greatest climate-related hazard we can imagine: a blackout during a heat wave,\" Brian Stone Jr., the lead author of the study and a professor in the School of City and Regional Planning at the Georgia Institute of Technology, told The New York Times.

This becomes more likely as the grid is run at near overload during extreme temperatures. Stuff starts breaking. And this little to do with the source of energy be it nuclear, fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc. Quite a few other overpopulated cities are in the same straits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-phoenix-arizona-er-city-blackout-heat-wave-study-2023-5
What stuff would be run at overload? I\'m not aware of electrical generating equipment that is run at overload levels during high demand periods. Do they run nuclear plants at 110%? How about gas turbines? Wind turbines?
The phrase used was \"near overload.\"

Apparently you\'re oblivious to the concept of environmental operating conditions, things like ambient temperature, bringing the overload to the equipment. What might be a perfectly manageable power demand at 90o, becomes a perfectly unmanageable demand at 120o.
If the operating temperature is 120°F, then it has a rated capability. It should be operated at no more than that level or big problems start to happen. I

Is this a hard concept for you to understand?
Wow- what a genius remark. You\'re the only one around here who runs into a brick wall over the slightest little thing.

High ambient air and water temperatures reduce both the efficiency and available generating capacity of thermoelectric
power plants[77, 38]. Coal, nuclear, concentrated solar power (CSP), biomass, geothermal, and some natural gas power
9
plants use steam turbines that are affected by higher coolant temperatures, because the efficiency of thermal electricity
generation is proportional to the temperature difference between the steam inlet and the condenser temperature[30, 59,
46, 42, 48]. For plants with once-through cooling systems, hotter cooling waters remove less heat from the plants’
steam cycle, decreasing the system’s cooling efficiency[44]. Efficiency losses are generally more pronounced in wet recirculating and air-cooled systems[13]. Capacity deratings also occur because the higher ambient air temperatures
result in lower mass density of intake air, resulting in less fuel mass that can be ignited, and therefore reduced power
output. Similar effects apply to natural gas combustion turbines and natural gas combined cycle plants[9, 64, 26].
Published information on the performance of thermoelectric generation with respect to ambient temperature conditions
can be found in technical publications,[27] empirical studies,[30, 59, 46, 42, 48, 44, 13, 9, 64] and is sometimes
included in publications from the original equipment manufacturer[104].
Response functions are generally linear, in the form of a constant decrease in power output per degree change above a
reference temperature. Some studies develop separate response functions for efficiency loss and capacity derating[52].
For example, one study conducted by the California Energy Commission (CEC) found that natural gas combined cycle
power plant capacity decreases by 0.3-0.5 percent for each 1◦C increase above a reference temperature of 15◦C[97].
The CEC study developed separate temperature-response functions for NGCC and NGCT plants based on geographic
region to account for location-specific factors, in addition to temperature. They found that plants operating in moun tainous regions had lower reference operating capacity owing to the decreased ambient air density at higher elevations.
Similar studies examining the temperature response of nuclear power plant output have found a decrease of approxi mately 0.1-0.5 percent for every 1◦C increase in ambient air temperature[30, 59, 46, 90]. In addition, a rise in ambient
air temperature might give rise to higher temperatures at working locations within the power plant, influencing the
proper functioning of safety related equipment like the emergency diesel generators[90].
Operating temperature also decreases both the electrical efficiency and the power output of a solar photovoltaic (PV)
module. The traditional relationship between the output and operating temperature of a solar cell is typically given
by a linear function expression the solar energy conversion efficiency as a function of cell operating temperature[36].
For example, Radziemska[91] finds that power output decreases by 0.66% per 1◦C increase above a reference tem perature of 25◦C for crystalline silicon solar cells. However, the operating temperature of the solar cell depends on
a range of factors, including ambient air temperature, wind speed, solar radiation flux/irradiance, and material and
system-dependent properties. While establishing a direct relationship between solar PV performance and ambient
temperature and other weather variables is challenging, solar PV temperature response functions have been reviewed
and presented[29].
Heat waves can also affect electricity generators, potentially causing physical damage above a certain temperature
threshold or forcing curtailment to avoid safety hazards[16]. One approach for assessing generator vulnerabilities to
heat waves assigns each generator a heat wave vulnerability level based on its geographic location (coastal or inland),
the type of generator (thermal or other) and the cooling method (presence of a cooling tower)[16].
High water temperatures can also cause threshold impacts. For example, plants may be forced to curtail operations
partially or completely when the intake cooling water exceeds operating design temperatures[103]. Additionally,
plants are typically not allowed to discharge cooling water above a certain temperature, to avoid harming fish and
other wildlife. Thermal discharge limits vary by world geopolitical region but in the U.S., surface water is typically
required to remain under 32.23◦C. Plants that use once-through cooling technologies typically return water to the
source at a temperature that is 8 to 12◦C warmer than the original intake water temperature[61].

Transformers and power lines are particularly vulnerable to high ambient air temperature. Persistent extreme temper atures can lead to deratings, shorter lifetimes, and abrupt failure of these components[111]. The response of efficiency
and maximum capacity of power transformers to ambient temperature is usually represented as a linear relationship
with varying inclinations (i.e. slopes). In general, the average power output decreases 0.7% to 1% per 1◦C increase in
air temperature, above a reference temperature (usually taken to be 20◦C)[57, 63, 105].
Additionally, the lifetime of a transformer can be significantly degraded by high ambient temperatures. The lifetime of
a transformer is limited by the “hot spot” temperature, the highest temperature within the windings of the transformer,
which can be much greater than the ambient temperature. For example, a 30◦C ambient temperature can correspond to
a 120◦C hot spot temperature[97]. However, the hotspot temperature is also affected by total load and other factors such
as wind, which affect the transformer’s ability to shed excess heat. Over time, the insulation in a transformer breaks
down, eventually leading to transformer failure. Exposure to high temperatures can accelerate this aging process.
Empirical studies of transformer lifetimes have found that an increase of 7◦C in the hotspot temperature can double
the aging acceleration factor[14]. In some cases, the combination of extreme heat and increased demand for electricity
for cooling can lead to catastrophic failure, as when 2,000 distribution line transformers failed during a July 2006 heat
wave in California[109].
High temperatures also increase transmission and distribution line losses and reduce carrying capacity. Average elec tricity transmission and distribution losses are about 5% in the United States[32]. The resistance of power lines
increases with temperature, leading to greater resistive loss[47]; however, the impact of ambient temperature on re sistive losses is generally considered to be negligible compared to impacts on total carrying capacity[97]. The line
capacity is limited by the maximum normal operating temperature, typically 80◦C. The operating temperature of the
line depends on several factors, including the ambient temperature, current in the line, and wind speed, which affects
the ability of the line to get rid of excess heat, and is generally much higher than the ambient temperature. (The IEEE
Standard for Calculating the Current-Temperature of Bare Overhead Conductors (IEEE 738-2006) gives line operators
a method for modeling transmission line temperature.) Higher line operating temperatures can also cause excessive sag
of power lines due to thermal expansion[77]. Sagging power lines pose many risks, including fire and safety hazards,
and increased chance of lines contacting trees or the ground. In order to avoid excessive sag and maintain operating
temperatures within design limits, system operators may manually reduce line capacity[58]. For example, the CEC
study found that an ambient temperature of 37.78◦C resulted in 7-8% capacity loss below normal design ratings[97].
So, you are saying that there is no equipment designed to generate and supply power in the hot, US southwest? I guess they are screwed!

I\'m sorry you can\'t understand what I\'m saying. The fact that your reply to my short post is the beginning of a dissertation, shows you can\'t grasp the simpler aspects, such as, equipment having ratings for operation over temperature ranges. Nothing you\'ve said, is of value in this context, other than to confirm what I wrote.

You\'re too ignorant to understand they don\'t build a zillion dollar infrastructure to handle a 1000 year event.

The normal way to deal with this is rolling blackouts. You have to wonder, how the hell we got into this situation where shortages of electric power are commonplace.
Rolling blackouts redistribute the misery.
Yes, exactly, misery and not catastrophe.
ASHRAE design standard used to size an A/C for 100% duty at the 3% high temperature of record. When you start hitting temperatures at the 0.3% extreme or less, things start to get uncomfortable and even unhealthy. Even a reasonably insulated residential is going to see about 0.7o temperature rise per each 1% reduction in duty cycle. This stuff with highs of 122o is going to make a lot of indoors above 90o. Then, because of the increased operating pressures, A/C capacity performance degrades specific to the manufacturer, provides less cooling rate, even when it does have the power to run.
Not really my problem. The solutions are obvious, even if uncomfortable. I don\'t know why you are banging on about this. Do you have a point?
Don\'t ask for any links or any other substantiation to any of those comments, because you\'re not getting them.
No one expects them from you, so most know better than to ask. It\'s not like you actually have read them yourself.
It\'s obvious by now that you don\'t know anything about anything. You\'re about as worthless as they get.
Yes, I am next to the most worthless person in this discussion.

There is no discussion.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 2:28:47 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 2:21:50 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 12:08:53 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 8:36:13 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 4:52:52 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 3:23:31 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 12:53:45 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
From the article:

\"I describe this as probably the greatest climate-related hazard we can imagine: a blackout during a heat wave,\" Brian Stone Jr., the lead author of the study and a professor in the School of City and Regional Planning at the Georgia Institute of Technology, told The New York Times.

This becomes more likely as the grid is run at near overload during extreme temperatures. Stuff starts breaking. And this little to do with the source of energy be it nuclear, fossil fuel, solar, wind, etc. Quite a few other overpopulated cities are in the same straits.

https://www.businessinsider.com/half-phoenix-arizona-er-city-blackout-heat-wave-study-2023-5
What stuff would be run at overload? I\'m not aware of electrical generating equipment that is run at overload levels during high demand periods. Do they run nuclear plants at 110%? How about gas turbines? Wind turbines?
The phrase used was \"near overload.\"

Apparently you\'re oblivious to the concept of environmental operating conditions, things like ambient temperature, bringing the overload to the equipment. What might be a perfectly manageable power demand at 90o, becomes a perfectly unmanageable demand at 120o.
If the operating temperature is 120°F, then it has a rated capability. It should be operated at no more than that level or big problems start to happen. I

Is this a hard concept for you to understand?
Wow- what a genius remark. You\'re the only one around here who runs into a brick wall over the slightest little thing.

High ambient air and water temperatures reduce both the efficiency and available generating capacity of thermoelectric
power plants[77, 38]. Coal, nuclear, concentrated solar power (CSP), biomass, geothermal, and some natural gas power
9
plants use steam turbines that are affected by higher coolant temperatures, because the efficiency of thermal electricity
generation is proportional to the temperature difference between the steam inlet and the condenser temperature[30, 59,
46, 42, 48]. For plants with once-through cooling systems, hotter cooling waters remove less heat from the plants’
steam cycle, decreasing the system’s cooling efficiency[44]. Efficiency losses are generally more pronounced in wet recirculating and air-cooled systems[13]. Capacity deratings also occur because the higher ambient air temperatures
result in lower mass density of intake air, resulting in less fuel mass that can be ignited, and therefore reduced power
output. Similar effects apply to natural gas combustion turbines and natural gas combined cycle plants[9, 64, 26].
Published information on the performance of thermoelectric generation with respect to ambient temperature conditions
can be found in technical publications,[27] empirical studies,[30, 59, 46, 42, 48, 44, 13, 9, 64] and is sometimes
included in publications from the original equipment manufacturer[104].
Response functions are generally linear, in the form of a constant decrease in power output per degree change above a
reference temperature. Some studies develop separate response functions for efficiency loss and capacity derating[52].
For example, one study conducted by the California Energy Commission (CEC) found that natural gas combined cycle
power plant capacity decreases by 0.3-0.5 percent for each 1◦C increase above a reference temperature of 15◦C[97].
The CEC study developed separate temperature-response functions for NGCC and NGCT plants based on geographic
region to account for location-specific factors, in addition to temperature. They found that plants operating in moun tainous regions had lower reference operating capacity owing to the decreased ambient air density at higher elevations.
Similar studies examining the temperature response of nuclear power plant output have found a decrease of approxi mately 0.1-0.5 percent for every 1◦C increase in ambient air temperature[30, 59, 46, 90]. In addition, a rise in ambient
air temperature might give rise to higher temperatures at working locations within the power plant, influencing the
proper functioning of safety related equipment like the emergency diesel generators[90].
Operating temperature also decreases both the electrical efficiency and the power output of a solar photovoltaic (PV)
module. The traditional relationship between the output and operating temperature of a solar cell is typically given
by a linear function expression the solar energy conversion efficiency as a function of cell operating temperature[36].
For example, Radziemska[91] finds that power output decreases by 0.66% per 1◦C increase above a reference tem perature of 25◦C for crystalline silicon solar cells. However, the operating temperature of the solar cell depends on
a range of factors, including ambient air temperature, wind speed, solar radiation flux/irradiance, and material and
system-dependent properties. While establishing a direct relationship between solar PV performance and ambient
temperature and other weather variables is challenging, solar PV temperature response functions have been reviewed
and presented[29].
Heat waves can also affect electricity generators, potentially causing physical damage above a certain temperature
threshold or forcing curtailment to avoid safety hazards[16]. One approach for assessing generator vulnerabilities to
heat waves assigns each generator a heat wave vulnerability level based on its geographic location (coastal or inland),
the type of generator (thermal or other) and the cooling method (presence of a cooling tower)[16].
High water temperatures can also cause threshold impacts. For example, plants may be forced to curtail operations
partially or completely when the intake cooling water exceeds operating design temperatures[103]. Additionally,
plants are typically not allowed to discharge cooling water above a certain temperature, to avoid harming fish and
other wildlife. Thermal discharge limits vary by world geopolitical region but in the U.S., surface water is typically
required to remain under 32.23◦C. Plants that use once-through cooling technologies typically return water to the
source at a temperature that is 8 to 12◦C warmer than the original intake water temperature[61].

Transformers and power lines are particularly vulnerable to high ambient air temperature. Persistent extreme temper atures can lead to deratings, shorter lifetimes, and abrupt failure of these components[111]. The response of efficiency
and maximum capacity of power transformers to ambient temperature is usually represented as a linear relationship
with varying inclinations (i.e. slopes). In general, the average power output decreases 0.7% to 1% per 1◦C increase in
air temperature, above a reference temperature (usually taken to be 20◦C)[57, 63, 105].
Additionally, the lifetime of a transformer can be significantly degraded by high ambient temperatures. The lifetime of
a transformer is limited by the “hot spot” temperature, the highest temperature within the windings of the transformer,
which can be much greater than the ambient temperature. For example, a 30◦C ambient temperature can correspond to
a 120◦C hot spot temperature[97]. However, the hotspot temperature is also affected by total load and other factors such
as wind, which affect the transformer’s ability to shed excess heat. Over time, the insulation in a transformer breaks
down, eventually leading to transformer failure. Exposure to high temperatures can accelerate this aging process.
Empirical studies of transformer lifetimes have found that an increase of 7◦C in the hotspot temperature can double
the aging acceleration factor[14]. In some cases, the combination of extreme heat and increased demand for electricity
for cooling can lead to catastrophic failure, as when 2,000 distribution line transformers failed during a July 2006 heat
wave in California[109].
High temperatures also increase transmission and distribution line losses and reduce carrying capacity. Average elec tricity transmission and distribution losses are about 5% in the United States[32]. The resistance of power lines
increases with temperature, leading to greater resistive loss[47]; however, the impact of ambient temperature on re sistive losses is generally considered to be negligible compared to impacts on total carrying capacity[97]. The line
capacity is limited by the maximum normal operating temperature, typically 80◦C. The operating temperature of the
line depends on several factors, including the ambient temperature, current in the line, and wind speed, which affects
the ability of the line to get rid of excess heat, and is generally much higher than the ambient temperature. (The IEEE
Standard for Calculating the Current-Temperature of Bare Overhead Conductors (IEEE 738-2006) gives line operators
a method for modeling transmission line temperature.) Higher line operating temperatures can also cause excessive sag
of power lines due to thermal expansion[77]. Sagging power lines pose many risks, including fire and safety hazards,
and increased chance of lines contacting trees or the ground. In order to avoid excessive sag and maintain operating
temperatures within design limits, system operators may manually reduce line capacity[58]. For example, the CEC
study found that an ambient temperature of 37.78◦C resulted in 7-8% capacity loss below normal design ratings[97].
So, you are saying that there is no equipment designed to generate and supply power in the hot, US southwest? I guess they are screwed!

I\'m sorry you can\'t understand what I\'m saying. The fact that your reply to my short post is the beginning of a dissertation, shows you can\'t grasp the simpler aspects, such as, equipment having ratings for operation over temperature ranges. Nothing you\'ve said, is of value in this context, other than to confirm what I wrote.
You\'re too ignorant to understand they don\'t build a zillion dollar infrastructure to handle a 1000 year event.

Exactly. Unfortunately, the events you are talking about happen every year..

The normal way to deal with this is rolling blackouts. You have to wonder, how the hell we got into this situation where shortages of electric power are commonplace.
Rolling blackouts redistribute the misery.
Yes, exactly, misery and not catastrophe.
ASHRAE design standard used to size an A/C for 100% duty at the 3% high temperature of record. When you start hitting temperatures at the 0.3% extreme or less, things start to get uncomfortable and even unhealthy. Even a reasonably insulated residential is going to see about 0.7o temperature rise per each 1% reduction in duty cycle. This stuff with highs of 122o is going to make a lot of indoors above 90o. Then, because of the increased operating pressures, A/C capacity performance degrades specific to the manufacturer, provides less cooling rate, even when it does have the power to run.
Not really my problem. The solutions are obvious, even if uncomfortable. I don\'t know why you are banging on about this. Do you have a point?
Don\'t ask for any links or any other substantiation to any of those comments, because you\'re not getting them.
No one expects them from you, so most know better than to ask. It\'s not like you actually have read them yourself.
It\'s obvious by now that you don\'t know anything about anything. You\'re about as worthless as they get.
Yes, I am next to the most worthless person in this discussion.
There is no discussion.

I can\'t argue with that! You\'ve never been able to have anything remotely like a discussion. Is there a reason why you can\'t discuss something rationally?

--

Rick C.

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[Anthony William Sloman]

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 5:20:28 AM UTC+10, Ricky wrote:

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 2:28:47 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 2:21:50 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 12:08:53 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 8:36:13 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 4:52:52 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 3:23:31 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 12:53:45 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:

<snip>

There is no discussion.

I can\'t argue with that! You\'ve never been able to have anything remotely like a discussion. Is there a reason why you can\'t discuss something rationally?

Rick\'s idea of a \"rational\" discussion is rather like John Larkin\'s - he expects his vague and superficial ideas to be taken seriously, and is deeply hurt when they aren\'t.

There\'s nothing rational about that.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney