Ground outdoor outlet?

[DaveC]

In an old home with ungrounded electrical system, my father wants to add an
outlet on the outside of the house near the porch.

Does the NEC require that this be grounded?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Joseph Meehan]

Grounded and GFI.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math


"DaveC" <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BB6C61F10005CF470A961670@news.individual.net...

In an old home with ungrounded electrical system, my father wants to add
an
outlet on the outside of the house near the porch.

Does the NEC require that this be grounded?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Joseph Meehan]

In short no. You have to do it right to meet code. There are some good
reasons for the code. It tends to save lives and prevent fires.

Consider this an opportunity to upgrade at least one circuit to current
code with a real ground.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math


"DaveC" <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BB6CC299000616B50A961670@news.individual.net...

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 3:22:06 -0700, Joseph Meehan wrote
(in message <ifH1b.18056$IQ2.456@fe1.columbus.rr.com&gt:

Grounded and GFI.

So I can't use an ungrounded outlet?

Do they make GFI 2-wire outlets?

Can I use a ground wire connected to the 240v dryer conduit (the nearest
conduit) to use for the ground? (The breaker panel is on the entire other
side of the house...)

Thanks,
DaveC

 

[Alain Beguin]

"DaveC" wrote on 23/08/2003 in message
<0001HW.BB6CC299000616B50A961670@news.individual.net>,

Can I use a ground wire connected to the 240v dryer conduit (the nearest
conduit) to use for the ground? (The breaker panel is on the entire other
side of the house...)

This would be very dangerous, even a crime, because it could put high
voltage on the conduit...
Never, never do that! You would put your and others life in danger. :-(

Best regards,


--
Alain
e-mail: albeguin at village dot uunet dot be
- 2330 -

 

[Nehmo Sergheyev]

DaveC

Can I use a ground wire connected to the 240v dryer conduit (the
nearest
conduit) to use for the ground? (The breaker panel is on the entire
other
side of the house...)

Nehmo
No. But there might be another legitimate ground nearby. Is the location
of the proposed outlet near any metal water pipes?









--
*******************
* Nehmo Sergheyev *
*******************
http://home.kc.rr.com/missouri/Susan_Talks.htm

 

[Ralph Farr]

In article <0001HW.BB6CC299000616B50A961670@news.individual.net>, dave-
usenet3016@mailblocks.com says...

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 3:22:06 -0700, Joseph Meehan wrote
(in message <ifH1b.18056$IQ2.456@fe1.columbus.rr.com&gt:

Grounded and GFI.

So I can't use an ungrounded outlet?

Do they make GFI 2-wire outlets?

Can I use a ground wire connected to the 240v dryer conduit (the nearest
conduit) to use for the ground? (The breaker panel is on the entire other
side of the house...)

Thanks,
DaveC


Hi Dave,

The GFI outlet has to have a ground to work. I would highly recommend
installing this type of outlet as it can save your life or someone elses
in wet areas - also it is mostly likely required by your local elecrical
code.

 

[Richard Crowley]

"Ralph Farr" wrote ...

The GFI outlet has to have a ground to work.

Technically, no. But practically (and legally) yes.

GFCIs work by detecting whether any current is going somewhere
other than the return neutral wire. No ground reference is used,
it is completely differential.

I would highly recommend installing this type of outlet as
it can save your life or someone elses in wet areas - also
it is mostly likely required by your local elecrical code.

No argument there.

 

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 09:38:33 -0500, Ralph Farr
<rfarr@preserves.worldspice.net> wrote:

The GFI outlet has to have a ground to work. I would highly recommend
installing this type of outlet as it can save your life or someone elses
in wet areas - also it is mostly likely required by your local elecrical
code.

It does???? I have often seen replies to similar questions here that
specifically said that a ground was not required for the GFI outlet to
function - and a GFI outlet could be used in a two wire system
effectively!

 

[Gary Tait]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:27:42 GMT, "Nehmo Sergheyev"
<nehmo54@hotmail.com> wrote:

DaveC
Can I use a ground wire connected to the 240v dryer conduit (the
nearest
conduit) to use for the ground? (The breaker panel is on the entire
other
side of the house...)

Nehmo
No. But there might be another legitimate ground nearby. Is the location
of the proposed outlet near any metal water pipes?

The conduit would be more legitimate than a water pipe. Not saying it
is okay to use a conduit. The proper way to do it would be to run a
new 12/2 with ground to the panel.

 

[DaveC]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 8:40:36 -0700, Gary Tait wrote
(in message <al2fkv4t9ihjlip3op659h877lntqrk5pc@4ax.com&gt:

The conduit would be more legitimate than a water pipe. Not saying it
is okay to use a conduit. The proper way to do it would be to run a
new 12/2 with ground to the panel.

What are my options to run just a ground back to the panel? If I understand
the code correctly, a ground isn't considered a current carrier and can be
run outside the house, even buried in the earth (I'm speaking of an insulated
wire, of course).

Thanks,
DaveC

 

[Kevin Ricks]

The NEC [210-7 (d)] allows any 2 wire (2 prong) ungrounded outlet to be
replaced with a GFCI (3 prong) as long as a label is placed on each outlet
that says " GFCI protected / No equipment ground" (You will usually find
these stick-on labels in the GFCI package). Any of the outlets in the house
can be 'upgraded' to 3 prong by adding GFCI's. (Check for variations in
local codes).
A GFCI does NOT require a ground to function and does nothing with the
ground other than just pass it through the receptacle. Also the GFCI does
not create a ground so when adding additional outlets in this manner be sure
that you do not connect anything to the ground screw(s), (unless it actually
goes to ground). i.e. Do not connect the grounds on 2 new outlets together
even though the new cable between them will have a ground wire. This would
create an isolated ground situation which is much more dangerous than no
ground at all.
Kevin

"DaveC" <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BB6C61F10005CF470A961670@news.individual.net...

In an old home with ungrounded electrical system, my father wants to add
an
outlet on the outside of the house near the porch.

Does the NEC require that this be grounded?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Gary P. Fiber]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 09:38:33 -0500, Ralph Farr
<rfarr@preserves.worldspice.net> wrote:

In article <0001HW.BB6CC299000616B50A961670@news.individual.net>, dave-
usenet3016@mailblocks.com says...
On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 3:22:06 -0700, Joseph Meehan wrote
(in message <ifH1b.18056$IQ2.456@fe1.columbus.rr.com&gt:

Grounded and GFI.

So I can't use an ungrounded outlet?

Do they make GFI 2-wire outlets?

Can I use a ground wire connected to the 240v dryer conduit (the nearest
conduit) to use for the ground? (The breaker panel is on the entire other
side of the house...)

Thanks,
DaveC


Hi Dave,
The GFI outlet has to have a ground to work. I would highly recommend
installing this type of outlet as it can save your life or someone elses
in wet areas - also it is mostly likely required by your local elecrical
code.

A GFCI receptacle does not need an equipment ground wire to work
(third wire, almost always Bare or GREEN). In fact if there is no
grounding wire do not add one to the box unless you take it back to
the electrical panel.

The GFCI looks at the current passing from hot to neutral. It there is
a Difference more than 5 mA it trips. It works with or without an
equipment grounding condictor attached to the green screw on the
receptacle.

You can safely use a GFCI on a two wire circuit. You are supposed to
however use the sticker that comes with it telling there is NO
EQUIPMENT GROUND attached to the GFCI.

In fact the only way legally you can replace a two wire receptacle
with a 3 wire one, has equipment grounding capability, is to use a
GFCI and the sticker " no equipment ground " on a two wire circuit.
When replacing the receptacle you use the LINE terminals on the GFCI.
The GFCI will also protect other outlets installed downstream from the
GFCI. Those outlets are connected to the LOAD terminals of the GFCI.

Make sure you read the installiation instruction that are supplied
with the receptacal when installing it. Leviton includes a nice sheet
of instructions.


Gary K8IZ
Washington State Resident
Registered Linux User # 312991

 

[Ralph Farr]

In article <0001HW.BB6C61F10005CF470A961670@news.individual.net>, dave-
usenet3016@mailblocks.com says...

In an old home with ungrounded electrical system, my father wants to add an
outlet on the outside of the house near the porch.

Does the NEC require that this be grounded?

Thanks,
Dave


Sorry about the incorrect information on the GFI needing a ground to

function. Outdoor outlets are much safer if they are grounded as much
equipment that is connected to these outlets normally uses the third
ground conductor for your protection. It is possible that your existing
outlets are grounded if the wires are run through metal conduit and the
outlets mounted in metal outlet boxes. If not then you most certainly
have no ground and the best solution would be to run a new wire back to
the breaker box.

 

[Sam Goldwasser]

Ralph Farr <rfarr@preserves.worldspice.net> writes:

The GFI outlet has to have a ground to work. I would highly recommend
installing this type of outlet as it can save your life or someone elses
in wet areas - also it is mostly likely required by your local elecrical
code.

Actually, a GFCI does NOT require a Ground to function. In fact, the ground
hole of the GFCI is NOT connected to anything in the GFCI. For an inside
outlet, installing a GFCI in an ungrounded system is accepted practice,
provides shock protection, and will meet Code. I do not know off-hand what
the rulse are for outdoor outlets.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Home Page: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
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Important: The email address in this message header may no longer work. To
contact me, please use the Feedback Form at repairfaq.org. Thanks.

 

[jakdedert]

The NEC allows grounding to any verified ground source when retrofitting
two-wire systems. That's not to say that it's a good idea, but it's better
than nothing. Best to pull a wire back to the service ground. There's also
a rule about the type of enclosure for outside outlets. They must be
completely covered...even in use. The old style plug covers, which covered
the outlet only when unused, are no longer acceptable. The new ones have a
large shield or door which covers the entire shebang, with slots underneath
to allow passage of cables.

The old ones would allow water to wick up--or dribble into--the outlet
itself when a cord was plugged in...only protected well when unused.

jak

"Ralph Farr" <rfarr@preserves.worldspice.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.19b19a7cd9ad39c5989687@news.wnm.net...

In article <0001HW.BB6C61F10005CF470A961670@news.individual.net>, dave-
usenet3016@mailblocks.com says...
In an old home with ungrounded electrical system, my father wants to add
an
outlet on the outside of the house near the porch.

Does the NEC require that this be grounded?

Thanks,
Dave


Sorry about the incorrect information on the GFI needing a ground to
function. Outdoor outlets are much safer if they are grounded as much
equipment that is connected to these outlets normally uses the third
ground conductor for your protection. It is possible that your existing
outlets are grounded if the wires are run through metal conduit and the
outlets mounted in metal outlet boxes. If not then you most certainly
have no ground and the best solution would be to run a new wire back to
the breaker box.

 

[Gary Tait]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 9:24:57 -0700, DaveC
<dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

What are my options to run just a ground back to the panel? If I understand
the code correctly, a ground isn't considered a current carrier and can be
run outside the house, even buried in the earth (I'm speaking of an insulated
wire, of course).

Thanks,
DaveC

You pretty well have to follow the path of the original circuit as
well as you can.

 

[Nehmo Sergheyev]

Gary Tait

The conduit would be more legitimate than a water pipe. Not saying
it
is okay to use a conduit. The proper way to do it would be to run a
new 12/2 with ground to the panel.

DaveC

What are my options to run just a ground back to the panel?

Nehmo
That would be fine, but if you run anything back to the panel, you can
just about as easily run the whole romex.

DaveC

If I understand
the code correctly, a ground isn't considered a current carrier and
can be
run outside the house, even buried in the earth (I'm speaking of an
insulated
wire, of course).

Nehmo
Under normal circumstances a ground wire doesn't carry current, but it
has to be prepared to do so in the event of say a short from the hot to
the case of an appliance. If the case were grounded, then even if you
were holding the case, you would be outside the circuit and unaffected.
The ground wire bonded to the case would carry the errant current.

If there were no corrosion problems, you *could* burry an uninsulated
ground wire. The ground wire is supposed to be electrically connected to
the real ground, and that is exactly what a ground electrode does.

And a metal water pipe does make a good ground. There are certain
considerations: it should also be bonded to the neutral bus on the main
service panel; there shouldn't be any non-metal fittings between your
connection and the pipe entrance to the house; and there should be a
jumper around the water meter. In other words, it should be electrically
continuous to the ground.

NEC compliance is somewhat different than electrical and practical
reality. I understand NEC 2002 didn't allow water pipes a supplemental
ground connection.

This may confuse more that elucidate, but the issue is discussed here
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/wiring/msg0715444810937.html

But, of course, you didn't say a water pipe was available.








--
*******************
* Nehmo Sergheyev *
*******************
http://home.kc.rr.com/missouri/Susan_Talks.htm

 

[DaveC]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:37:20 -0700, Ralph Farr wrote
(in message <MPG.19b19a7cd9ad39c5989687@news.wnm.net&gt:

In article <0001HW.BB6C61F10005CF470A961670@news.individual.net>, dave-
usenet3016@mailblocks.com says...
In an old home with ungrounded electrical system, my father wants to add
an outlet on the outside of the house near the porch.

Does the NEC require that this be grounded?

Sorry about the incorrect information on the GFI needing a ground to
function.

No worries, Mate!

Outdoor outlets are much safer if they are grounded as much
equipment that is connected to these outlets normally uses the third
ground conductor for your protection. It is possible that your existing
outlets are grounded if the wires are run through metal conduit and the
outlets mounted in metal outlet boxes. If not then you most certainly
have no ground and the best solution would be to run a new wire back to
the breaker box.

It turns out that the rooms where I was adding the outdoor outlet did have a
3-wire circuit. This extension of the house is newer than the original house,
which has only 2-wire circuits.

So, the ground issue is a non-issue.

But I learned much about GFCI and grounding requirements thanks to all who
contributed here.

Thanks!
Dave C

 

[Clifton T. Sharp Jr.]

DaveC wrote:

Joseph Meehan wrote:
Grounded and GFI.

So I can't use an ungrounded outlet?

Sure you can. But you can save some trouble by just hooking the hot wire
to a metal plate and marking it "Palm Here".

--
"Here, Outlook Express, run this program." "Okay."

 

[Gary P. Fiber]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 00:18:35 -0500, "Clifton T. Sharp Jr."
<clifto@clifto.com> wrote:

Gary P. Fiber wrote:
You can safely use a GFCI on a two wire circuit. You are supposed to
however use the sticker that comes with it telling there is NO
EQUIPMENT GROUND attached to the GFCI.

As true as that is indoors, I would guess NEC doesn't allow it outdoors.

actually most all outdoor outlets have to be GFCI according to the
NEC. I seem to remember a couple of exceptions when there is no access
to an outlet, like a single outlet an appliance like a freezer is
plugged into in the garage, though not technically out doors still
closer to ground than most outlets indoors.

Now when you upgrade an outdoor piece of equipment like an air
conditioner, the ground mounted version you are required to provide a
service outlet within 25 feet of it and it needs to be GFCI. That is
true for those roof mounted air conditioners also.

The real point was the GFCI does not need the equipment grounding wire
to be safe as it does not use that wire.

All interesting stuff.

Gary K8IZ
Washington State Resident
Registered Linux User # 312991