Grid-Battery "Hybrid" Tractors

[Bret Cahill]

Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle's engine, it's
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. If the tank isn't connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It's a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.

A 1/2 mile long wire 10 - 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.

As agriculture become more automated there won't be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.

If someone wants to ride in the tractor he can bring other work to do
during recharge.


Bret Cahill

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle's engine, it's
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. If the tank isn't connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It's a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.

A 1/2 mile long wire 10 - 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.

As agriculture become more automated there won't be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.

What sort of battery charges in a minute or two? And where would all
that power come from, in the middle of a corn field?

Do the math: say, 50 horsepower-hours:

How much power to recharge in two minutes?

What would the voltage have to be to keep the
wire losses reasonable?

How much do the batteries weigh?

How much do the batteries cost?

Ideas are cheap, as long as you ignore reality.


John

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 16:13:02 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
<pstech@smart.net> wrote:

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news3u6841m0gkfu88flpdgtsmdm3jfj6945e@4ax.com...
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle's engine, it's
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. If the tank isn't connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It's a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.

A 1/2 mile long wire 10 - 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.

As agriculture become more automated there won't be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.

What sort of battery charges in a minute or two? And where would all
that power come from, in the middle of a corn field?

Do the math: say, 50 horsepower-hours:

How much power to recharge in two minutes?

What would the voltage have to be to keep the
wire losses reasonable?

How much do the batteries weigh?

How much do the batteries cost?

Ideas are cheap, as long as you ignore reality.

I think this could also be accomplished by stringing a grid of wires over
the field, and using a trolley that rides on the wires. It's not as simple
as a locomotive or streetcar, where a single hot wire can bu used, and the
return current through the tracks. But I think a system could be devised to
provide electricity to a tractor by means of a controlled tether. It could
definitely be done with a set of tracks that would move the supply line to
be in-line with the movement of the tractor, and then have a trolley with a
power cord that supplies the tractor. It would involve some engineering,
initial investment, and maintenance, but should be about 95% efficient for
energy conversion.

Paul

Even better, build a solid roof over the entire field, and sheath the
underside with conductive metal, like the bumper cars at the beach.

Or how about a tower, with a laser or microwave beam aiming power at a
collector array on the tractor?

Or hang a cable to the tractor from a tethered satellite with solar
cells.

Or go back to using oxen. That will revive the whip business, creating
many jobs.

Life is so much more exciting without math.

John

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:45:07 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

I think this could also be accomplished by stringing a grid of wires over
the field, and using a trolley that rides on the wires.

That's certainly possible -- the "trolly tractor" was last summer's
idea -- but requires a lot of wire. It's actually cheaper to use a
battery.

It's not as simple
as a locomotive or streetcar, where a single hot wire can bu used, and the
return current through the tracks. But I think a system could be devised to
provide electricity to a tractor by means of a controlled tether. It could
definitely be done with a set of tracks that would move the supply line to
be in-line with the movement of the tractor, and then have a trolley with a
power cord that supplies the tractor. It would involve some engineering,
initial investment, and maintenance, but should be about 95% efficient for
energy conversion.

Another option is to eliminate the tractor altogether and drag the
plow and other impliments off of a "super pivot," the common "crop
circle" irrigation structure beefed up for the heavier load.

The impliments would move inward for a spiral furrow.

Um, you might reconsider any plans you have to be a farmer.

John

 

[Bret Cahill]

I think this could also be accomplished by stringing a grid of wires over
the field, and using a trolley that rides on the wires.

That's certainly possible -- the "trolly tractor" was last summer's
idea -- but requires a lot of wire. It's actually cheaper to use a
battery.

It's not as simple
as a locomotive or streetcar, where a single hot wire can bu used, and the
return current through the tracks. But I think a system could be devised to
provide electricity to a tractor by means of a controlled tether. It could
definitely be done with a set of tracks that would move the supply line to
be in-line with the movement of the tractor, and then have a trolley with a
power cord that supplies the tractor. It would involve some engineering,
initial investment, and maintenance, but should be about 95% efficient for
energy conversion.

Another option is to eliminate the tractor altogether and drag the
plow and other impliments off of a "super pivot," the common "crop
circle" irrigation structure beefed up for the heavier load.

The impliments would move inward for a spiral furrow.


Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle's engine, it's
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. �If the tank isn't connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. �Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. �Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It's a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.

A 1/2 mile long wire 10 ďż˝- 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. �A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. �An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.

As agriculture become more automated there won't be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.

What sort of battery charges in a minute or two?

One with lots of small cells. The smaller the cells, the faster the
charging time.

And where would all
that power come from, in the middle of a corn field?

The grid: Coal fired plants, nukes, PV, dish Stirling, geo thermal,
wind . . . whatever they got that will put out some juice. Polar
bears, tropical frogs and hurricanes are not the issue.

Do the math: say, 50 horsepower-hours:

Plug in hybrids can go 40 miles between charges. A tractor may
require 20X higher hp than a Volt but a tractor only needs to go 1
mile between charges.

�How much power to recharge in two minutes?

If a 400 hp articulated tractor moves 10 mph it's only running 6
minutes between charges and will require 3X 400 hp or ~ 1 MW -- 1/6th
the juice drawn by an electric locomotive.

In 4 years diesel will be $15 / gallon and electrification will amount
to hundreds of dollars/hour in savings, much more money than necessary
to hire someone willing to sit at the end of the field for a few
minutes reading a magazine charging up between furrows.

�What would the voltage have to be to keep the
�wire losses reasonable?

It's only a half mile so a fat high current low voltage wire might be
desirable for safety reasons.

�How much do the batteries weigh?

Regardless of the size, from the articulated tractor sucking down 22
gallons of diesel/hour [$110/hr and spiraling] to a 15 hp garden
tractor, the battery + electric motor system will always have a higher
specific power than any IC engine + fuel tank system.

The reason is a tractor just doesn't need to go very far to work a
field.

�How much do the batteries cost?

Same as the batteries in plug in hybrids which require an even larger
battery / hp.

Ideas are cheap, as long as you ignore reality.

In as little as 8 years a lot of the big wells will give out rather
quickly leaving the world with 2/3rds of current production according
to a recent _London Times_ interview with a former BushCo aid. On top
of that China seems to have a permanent double digit growth rate
while, according to Soros, the U. S. will be in a decades long
recession so the size of China's economy will surpass America's in as
little as 6 years. This will leave the great majority of Americans to
try to get by on a couple percent of the oil we consume today.

So here are 3 plausible scenarios:

1. electrify the fields & tractors, or,

2. return to plowing fields with oxen, or,

3. starve.

If you cannot come up with any ideas, cheap or otherwise, for a
plausible 4th scenario then I say we electrify the fields.


Bret Cahill


"Every idea is the product of a single mind."

-- Bishop Richard Cumberland

 

[Mark Thorson]

Bret Cahill wrote:

The reality is in as little as 8 years a lot of the big wells will
give out rather
quickly leaving the world with 2/3rds of current production according
to a recent _London Times_ interview with a former BushCo aid.

That's oil. Estimates of worldwide recoverable natural gas
reserves continue to grow year after year, despite high and
increasing consumption. That's because new reserves are
being found all the time.

 

[Bret Cahill]

Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle's engine, it's
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. ?If the tank isn't connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. ?Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. ?Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It's a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.
A 1/2 mile long wire 10 ?- 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. ?A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. ?An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.
As agriculture become more automated there won't be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.

What sort of battery charges in a minute or two?

One with lots of small cells. The smaller the cells, the faster the
charging time.

This should be common knowledge.

And where would all
that power come from, in the middle of a corn field?

The grid: Coal fired plants, nukes, PV, dish Stirling, geo thermal,
wind . . . whatever they got that will put out some juice. Polar
bears, tropical frogs and hurricanes are not the issue.

Do the math: say, 50 horsepower-hours:

How big is this field or tractor gonna be?

Plug in hybrids can go 40 miles between charges. A tractor may
require 20X higher hp than a Volt but a tractor only needs to go 1
mile between charges.

?How much power to recharge in two minutes?

If a 400 hp articulated tractor moves 10 mph it's only running 6
minutes between charges and will require 3X 400 hp or ~ 1 MW -- 1/6th
the juice drawn by an electric locomotive.

In 4 years diesel will be $15 / gallon and electrification will
amount
to hundreds of dollars/hour in savings, much more money than
necessary
to hire someone willing to sit at the end of the field for a few
minutes reading a magazine charging up between furrows.

?What would the voltage have to be to keep the
?wire losses reasonable?

It's only a half mile so a fat high current low voltage wire might be
desirable for safety reasons.

?How much do the batteries weigh?

Regardless of the size, from the articulated tractor sucking down 22
gallons of diesel/hour [$110/hr and spiraling] to a 15 hp garden
tractor, the battery + electric motor system will always have a
higher
specific power than any IC engine + fuel tank system.
The reason is a tractor just doesn't need to go very far to work a
field.

?How much do the batteries cost?

Same as the batteries in plug in hybrids which require an even larger
battery / hp.

Are you now claiming plug in hybrids are a scam?

Ideas are cheap,

It only seems that way to those who have none.

as long as you ignore reality.

The reality is in as little as 8 years a lot of the big wells will
give out rather
quickly leaving the world with 2/3rds of current production according
to a recent _London Times_ interview with a former BushCo aid. On
top
of that China seems to have a permanent double digit growth rate
while, according to Soros, the U. S. will be in a decades long
recession so the size of China's economy will surpass America's in as
little as 6 years. This will leave the great majority of Americans
to
try to get by on a couple percent of the oil we consume today.

So here are 3 plausible scenarios:

1. electrify the fields & tractors, or,

2. return to plowing fields with oxen, or,

3. starve.

If you cannot come up with any ideas, cheap or otherwise, for a
plausible 4th scenario then I say we electrify the fields.


Bret Cahill


"Every idea is the product of a single mind."

-- Bishop Richard Cumberland

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:54:59 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle's engine, it's
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. ?If the tank isn't connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. ?Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. ?Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It's a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.
A 1/2 mile long wire 10 ?- 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. ?A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. ?An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.
As agriculture become more automated there won't be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.

What sort of battery charges in a minute or two?

One with lots of small cells. The smaller the cells, the faster the
charging time.

This should be common knowledge.

Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
Cell phone ditto.

John

 

[Bret Cahill]

The reality is in as little as 8 years a lot of the big wells will
give out rather
quickly leaving the world with 2/3rds of current production according
to a recent _London Times_ interview with a former BushCo aid.

That's oil. �Estimates of worldwide recoverable natural gas
reserves continue to grow year after year, despite high and
increasing consumption. �That's because new reserves are
being found all the time.

Not completely carbon free but at least we can convert the tractors to
natural gas and avoid plowing fields with oxen.


Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

The reality is in as little as 8 years a lot of the big wells will
give out rather
quickly leaving the world with 2/3rds of current production according
to a recent _London Times_ interview with a former BushCo aid.

That's oil. �Estimates of worldwide recoverable natural gas
reserves continue to grow year after year, despite high and
increasing consumption. �That's because new reserves are
being found all the time.

Spiraling oil prices will drag up the cost of every other form of
portable energy like a rag doll.

Forget carbon. Forget AGW. The _only_ serious permanent solution is
to electrify the fields & tractors.


Bret Cahill

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 17:49:51 -0700, "Rob Dekker" <rob@verific.com>
wrote:

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message news:9is984pd60rnk8u9puqnm8amaejofp9l30@4ax.com...
.....
Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
Cell phone ditto.


Batteries should be specially designed for fast charge/discharge, but it's not at all impossible.
You just loose some of the energy density if you increase the power density.
Here is one where they did that :

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_energy_systems.html

Recharges in a few minutes.
35 kWh battery packs are in production.

Give us a break.

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_applications.html

This is yet another nanotech company that will change the world in a
dozen ways, including the mandatory cure of various diseases.

They lost $32M last year on $9M in sales. Net shareholder equity is
-57 million. Wish'em luck.

John

 

[phil hays]

Bret Cahill wrote:

So here are 3 plausible scenarios:

1. electrify the fields & tractors, or,

2. return to plowing fields with oxen, or,

3. starve.

If you cannot come up with any ideas, cheap or otherwise, for a
plausible 4th scenario then I say we electrify the fields.

There is a whole level of technology that you missed. From 1880 to 1910
or so, this was high tech farming, and was growing rapidly. Peak
production year was 1912.


4) Biofuel (aka wood) fired steam tractors.

Wins over oxen or horses as it doesn't need to be fed year round. Loses
to gas tractors on power to weight ratio, and on more labor required for
fueling.


--
Phil Hays

 

[Mark Thorson]

Bret Cahill wrote:

Few things are more entertaining than boiler explosions.

Which are entirely preventable by a regular schedule
of hydrostatic testing. Throughout the U.S., this
is required by law.

The old 19th century designs were like little
locomotives, lots of cast iron and iron plate,
and rivets. With modern materials and designs,
a steam tractor could be very competitive.

 

[Mark Thorson]

Bret Cahill wrote:

Forget carbon. Forget AGW. The _only_ serious permanent solution is
to electrify the fields & tractors.

You mean like slot cars? Or overhead wires
like street cars?

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:13:12 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Not that pausing a few minutes is a problem either but a fast
recharging battery just isn't a serious issue.

All that is necessary is make the cells smaller.

The smaller the cell, the faster the recharge.

This should be common knowledge.


Bret Cahill

Show us a link to a datasheet for such a battery.

Meanwhile, consider a AA size battery with, say, a 2 AH capacity.
Consider charging it in one minute.

See the problem?

John

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:52:11 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
Cell phone ditto.

Batteries should be specially designed for fast charge/discharge, but it's not at all impossible.
You just loose some of the energy density if you increase the power density.
Here is one where they did that :

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_energy_systems.html

Recharges in a few minutes.
35 kWh battery packs are in production.

Give us a break.

http://www.altairinc.com/markets_applications.html

This is yet another nanotech company that will change the world in a
dozen ways, including the mandatory cure of various diseases.

They lost $32M last year on $9M in sales. Net shareholder equity is
-57 million.

A lot of early automobile companies went belly up. It this an
argument that the automobile was never economically feasible?

First you wanted a fast charging battery. We gave it to you and now
you seem to want a fast charging battery from a well managed company.

What's next? A fast charging battery from a well managed company run
by naked women?

How about a fast-charging battery that's in actual production?

John

 

[Mark Thorson]

Bret Cahill wrote:

Few things are more entertaining than boiler explosions.

Which are entirely preventable by a regular schedule
of hydrostatic testing. ďż˝

Which will piss off farmers even more than screwing around with a
trolly wire after every pass.

Hardly. A hydrostatic test is easy to do,
and they don't have to be done very often.

 

[Mark Thorson]

Bret Cahill wrote:

Few things are more entertaining than boiler explosions.

Firetube boilers don't explode. Jay Leno explains it:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/jay_leno_garage/1302916.html

 

[Mark Thorson]

Bret Cahill wrote:

Forget carbon. �Forget AGW. �The _only_ serious permanent solution is
to electrify the fields & tractors.

You mean like slot cars? �Or overhead wires
like street cars?

Just one 1/2 mile long wire on one end of a quarter square.

An extension cord! Of course!