Good FPGA dev kit for a student who is not a complete newbie

C

Caeliferum

Guest
I've been doing digital design for awhile now both in class and in my co-o
terms. I work with FPGAs pretty regularly. However, I have some sid
projects in my head that I want to work on, so I'd like a board for m
personal use. Projects that may require a bit more kick. DSP, embedde
processor design, maybe even ANN, etc.

I don't really want to spend any more than, say, $500. So I've been lookin
at the following dev kits:

DE2-115 (Cyclone IV)
http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=139&No=502

and

Atlys (Spartan 6)
http://digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,400,836&Prod=ATLYS

I admit I haven't used the Altera tool set, but at the end of the day it
the hardware and synthesis quality that matters.

I'm also open to other suggestions, of course. Anyone have experience wit
these low-cost development kits and chips?

Any and all help is greatly appreciated! :)



---------------------------------------
Posted through http://www.FPGARelated.com
 
I'm also open to other suggestions, of course. Anyone have experience with
these low-cost development kits and chips?
Click to expand...
Are there any particular interfaces and peripherals you want to use?
Unless you're very enthusiastic about designing PCBs and your time is
worth nothing, spending more money on a development board that has
everything you might possibly want to use in the future is a good
investment.

I've got an Atlys and it's almost perfect, but:

- it doesn't use the standard Xilinx FMC connector, which might bother
you if you wanted to add third-party interface boards

- it doesn't have a PCI Express connector, which might bother you if you
ever decide that you want PCI Express.

- if you want to make your own interface board for it, the VHDCI
connector is a little tricky to get hold of as Digilent doesn't
currently sell it on its own, and the documentation is unclear about the
correct gender.

Other than that it's great! You get a lot more than the Xilinx SP601 and
Avnet Spartan-6 LX16 board for a similar price.

At the sub-$100 end of the price scale there are quite a few options,
though these may be a bit more limited than what you were after. I've
compiled a list at http://tristesse.org/CheapFPGADevelopmentBoards .

Joel
 
Have a look at our Drigmorn3 board http://www.enterpoint.co.uk/drigmorn/drigmorn3.html.
It's a nice board particularly for the embedded processor side with
RTC, LCD, PS2, Ethernet, DDR3 memory, SPI Flash, memory card socket,
accelerometer, 4 x 3 LEDs (traffic lights), USB and 40 5V tolerant I/O
features.

There is also the big brother Drigmorn4 http://www.enterpoint.co.uk/drigmorn/drigmorn4.html
but I think that might be out of your budget. The significantly
enhanced Issue2 will be available within a few days including in
limited quantities the XC6SLX45 and XC6SLX75 versions that are ISE
Webpack compatible. The XC6SLX150 version will offer a new I/O
interface with 40 Gbit/s capability that we will be using to support a
number of interesting add-ons including a FMC interface adaptor.

Discounts on both these products are available to students and other
academic buyers.

John Adair
Enterpoint Ltd.


On Feb 8, 11:14 am, "Caeliferum" <chatthak@n_o_s_p_a_m.uoguelph.ca>
wrote:
I've been doing digital design for awhile now both in class and in my co-op
terms. I work with FPGAs pretty regularly. However, I have some side
projects in my head that I want to work on, so I'd like a board for my
personal use. Projects that may require a bit more kick. DSP, embedded
processor design, maybe even ANN, etc.

I don't really want to spend any more than, say, $500. So I've been looking
at the following dev kits:

DE2-115 (Cyclone IV)http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&Ca...

and

Atlys (Spartan 6)http://digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,400,836&Prod=ATLYS

I admit I haven't used the Altera tool set, but at the end of the day its
the hardware and synthesis quality that matters.

I'm also open to other suggestions, of course. Anyone have experience with
these low-cost development kits and chips?

Any and all help is greatly appreciated! :)

---------------------------------------        
Posted throughhttp://www.FPGARelated.com
Click to expand...
 
On Feb 8, 6:00 pm, Joel Williams
<nospamwhydontyoublogabou...@nospamgmail.com> wrote:
I've got an Atlys and it's almost perfect, but:

- it doesn't use the standard Xilinx FMC connector, which might bother
you if you wanted to add third-party interface boards

- it doesn't have a PCI Express connector, which might bother you if you
ever decide that you want PCI Express.

- if you want to make your own interface board for it, the VHDCI
connector is a little tricky to get hold of as Digilent doesn't
currently sell it on its own, and the documentation is unclear about the
correct gender.
Click to expand...
One other drawback to the Atlys is their use of a gigabit-Ethernet PHY
that requires a signed NDA before the vendor (Marvell) will let you
see the data sheet. That means no open source development can
(legally) be conducted with this board, at least as far as Ethernet
connectivity is concerned.* Why a company with Digilent's tradition
of hacker-friendliness went with a vendor like Marvell, I can't begin
to guess.

It's a really nice development board otherwise. I was disappointed to
see the Marvell part on there, and told them as much.

*:Yes, a copy of the data sheet stamped with "Marvell Confidential"
and someone else's NDA number can be downloaded from various sources.
No, that's not a good substitute for a legally-unencumbered design.

-- john, KE5FX
 
On the topic of gigabit ethernet PHY's, where can one obtain prototype
quantities of them? I can't find any on Digikey. Which manufacturers
and models are recommended?

Allan

On Feb 9, 11:25 pm, John Miles <jmi...@gmail.com> wrote:
One other drawback to the Atlys is their use of a gigabit-Ethernet PHY
that requires a signed NDA before the vendor (Marvell) will let you
see the data sheet.  That means no open source development can
(legally) be conducted with this board, at least as far as Ethernet
connectivity is concerned.*  Why a company with Digilent's tradition
of hacker-friendliness went with a vendor like Marvell, I can't begin
to guess.

It's a really nice development board otherwise.  I was disappointed to
see the Marvell part on there, and told them as much.

*:Yes, a copy of the data sheet stamped with "Marvell Confidential"
and someone else's NDA number can be downloaded from various sources.
No, that's not a good substitute for a legally-unencumbered design.

-- john, KE5FX
Click to expand...
 
Look at DP83865DVH available in Digikey. Most gigabit phys are a real
problem to buy in small numbers and even worse to get a datasheet.
It's probably not the best part but we use this one because datasheet
is in the public domain and our customers can get the datasheet. It's
also easy to get.

John Adair
Enterpoint Ltd.

On Feb 10, 5:18 am, Allan Wang <alla...@gmail.com> wrote:
On the topic of gigabit ethernet PHY's, where can one obtain prototype
quantities of them? I can't find any on Digikey. Which manufacturers
and models are recommended?

Allan

On Feb 9, 11:25 pm, John Miles <jmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

One other drawback to the Atlys is their use of a gigabit-Ethernet PHY
that requires a signed NDA before the vendor (Marvell) will let you
see the data sheet.  That means no open source development can
(legally) be conducted with this board, at least as far as Ethernet
connectivity is concerned.*  Why a company with Digilent's tradition
of hacker-friendliness went with a vendor like Marvell, I can't begin
to guess.

It's a really nice development board otherwise.  I was disappointed to
see the Marvell part on there, and told them as much.

*:Yes, a copy of the data sheet stamped with "Marvell Confidential"
and someone else's NDA number can be downloaded from various sources.
No, that's not a good substitute for a legally-unencumbered design.

-- john, KE5FX
Click to expand...
 
What about the VSC8601? How come it is so cheap compared to the
DP83865DVH? Forgive my lack of knowledge, but are PHY's mostly
compatible with each other?

Thanks,
Allan

On Feb 10, 3:12 am, John Adair <g...@enterpoint.co.uk> wrote:
Look at DP83865DVH available in Digikey. Most gigabit phys are a real
problem to buy in small numbers and even worse to get a datasheet.
It's probably not the best part but we use this one because datasheet
is in the public domain and our customers can get the datasheet. It's
also easy to get.

John Adair
Enterpoint Ltd.

On Feb 10, 5:18 am, Allan Wang <alla...@gmail.com> wrote:







On the topic of gigabit ethernet PHY's, where can one obtain prototype
quantities of them? I can't find any on Digikey. Which manufacturers
and models are recommended?

Allan

On Feb 9, 11:25 pm, John Miles <jmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

One other drawback to the Atlys is their use of a gigabit-Ethernet PHY
that requires a signed NDA before the vendor (Marvell) will let you
see the data sheet.  That means no open source development can
(legally) be conducted with this board, at least as far as Ethernet
connectivity is concerned.*  Why a company with Digilent's tradition
of hacker-friendliness went with a vendor like Marvell, I can't begin
to guess.

It's a really nice development board otherwise.  I was disappointed to
see the Marvell part on there, and told them as much.

*:Yes, a copy of the data sheet stamped with "Marvell Confidential"
and someone else's NDA number can be downloaded from various sources.
No, that's not a good substitute for a legally-unencumbered design.

-- john, KE5FX
Click to expand...
 
I think the Vitesse parts have the same problem as Marvell in terms of
small quantity availability and NDAs for datasheets. Both these
manufacturers have very good parts and pricing if you can persist long
enough to get a design together. Those are the only reasons we don't
use them in products. We have the necessary NDAs in place but we can't
tell out customers any of it and how to use the parts because of the
NDAs that we have in place. My opinion is they lose a lot of business
because of that but that is their management choice. It's like been
given the latest Ferrari for nothing without the keys to start it.

John Adair
Enterpoint Ltd.

On Feb 10, 9:46 am, Allan Wang <alla...@gmail.com> wrote:
What about the VSC8601? How come it is so cheap compared to the
DP83865DVH? Forgive my lack of knowledge, but are PHY's mostly
compatible with each other?

Thanks,
Allan

On Feb 10, 3:12 am, John Adair <g...@enterpoint.co.uk> wrote:

Look at DP83865DVH available in Digikey. Most gigabit phys are a real
problem to buy in small numbers and even worse to get a datasheet.
It's probably not the best part but we use this one because datasheet
is in the public domain and our customers can get the datasheet. It's
also easy to get.

John Adair
Enterpoint Ltd.

On Feb 10, 5:18 am, Allan Wang <alla...@gmail.com> wrote:

On the topic of gigabit ethernet PHY's, where can one obtain prototype
quantities of them? I can't find any on Digikey. Which manufacturers
and models are recommended?

Allan

On Feb 9, 11:25 pm, John Miles <jmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

One other drawback to the Atlys is their use of a gigabit-Ethernet PHY
that requires a signed NDA before the vendor (Marvell) will let you
see the data sheet.  That means no open source development can
(legally) be conducted with this board, at least as far as Ethernet
connectivity is concerned.*  Why a company with Digilent's tradition
of hacker-friendliness went with a vendor like Marvell, I can't begin
to guess.

It's a really nice development board otherwise.  I was disappointed to
see the Marvell part on there, and told them as much.

*:Yes, a copy of the data sheet stamped with "Marvell Confidential"
and someone else's NDA number can be downloaded from various sources.
No, that's not a good substitute for a legally-unencumbered design.

-- john, KE5FX
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the info, guys!

I'm seeing a lot of Xilinx stuff. What are your thoughts on Altera in term
of hardware and synthesis tools?

Thanks again! :)



I've been doing digital design for awhile now both in class and in m
co-op
terms. I work with FPGAs pretty regularly. However, I have some side
projects in my head that I want to work on, so I'd like a board for my
personal use. Projects that may require a bit more kick. DSP, embedded
processor design, maybe even ANN, etc.

I don't really want to spend any more than, say, $500. So I've bee
looking
at the following dev kits:

DE2-115 (Cyclone IV)
http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=139&No=502

and

Atlys (Spartan 6)
http://digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,400,836&Prod=ATLYS

I admit I haven't used the Altera tool set, but at the end of the day its
the hardware and synthesis quality that matters.

I'm also open to other suggestions, of course. Anyone have experienc
with
these low-cost development kits and chips?

Any and all help is greatly appreciated! :)



---------------------------------------
Posted through http://www.FPGARelated.com
Click to expand...
---------------------------------------
Posted through http://www.FPGARelated.com
 
Generally speaking there are about 10x Xilinx dev boards for every
Altera dev board. Don't ask me why because the market sizes are not
that different. Possibly as a result of that there are not that many
Altera boards in the lower cost end. We have a very low cost board in
Polmaddie2 but that's only a CPLD and below the level you are looking
for. Our next Altera product will probably be just outside your upper
end so we probably won't have anything in the middle until we do a
Cyclone V board.

John Adair
Enterpoint Ltd.


On Feb 10, 7:28 pm, "Caeliferum"
<chatthak@n_o_s_p_a_m.n_o_s_p_a_m.uoguelph.ca> wrote:
Thanks for the info, guys!

I'm seeing a lot of Xilinx stuff. What are your thoughts on Altera in terms
of hardware and synthesis tools?

Thanks again! :)





I've been doing digital design for awhile now both in class and in my
co-op
terms. I work with FPGAs pretty regularly. However, I have some side
projects in my head that I want to work on, so I'd like a board for my
personal use. Projects that may require a bit more kick. DSP, embedded
processor design, maybe even ANN, etc.

I don't really want to spend any more than, say, $500. So I've been
looking
at the following dev kits:

DE2-115 (Cyclone IV)
http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&Ca....

and

Atlys (Spartan 6)
http://digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,400,836&Prod=ATLYS

I admit I haven't used the Altera tool set, but at the end of the day its
the hardware and synthesis quality that matters.

I'm also open to other suggestions, of course. Anyone have experience
with
these low-cost development kits and chips?

Any and all help is greatly appreciated! :)

---------------------------------------            
Posted throughhttp://www.FPGARelated.com

---------------------------------------        
Posted throughhttp://www.FPGARelated.com
Click to expand...
 
One other drawback to the Atlys is their use of a gigabit-Ethernet PHY
that requires a signed NDA before the vendor (Marvell) will let you
see the data sheet. That means no open source development can
(legally) be conducted with this board, at least as far as Ethernet
connectivity is concerned.* Why a company with Digilent's tradition
of hacker-friendliness went with a vendor like Marvell, I can't begin
to guess.
Click to expand...
You're right - I should have mentioned that as a huge drawback.

You need to register with Marvell's extranet. Their legal team is then
meant to contact you with an NDA. Unfortunately I've not heard back from
them, two months on. Their Web site advises that you contact your local
distributor (in Australia, in my case) for help, but I haven't heard
back from them either!

An attempt to contact them through their contact form just resulted in a
generic, unhelpful form response, a few weeks later. Hopeless!

Unfortunately, Digilent didn't have any tips or a Marvell contact to try.

Joel
 
National may be the ONLY vendor of networking chips
that doesn't require an NDA for datasheets. I know
that Marvell and Broadcom are extremely hard to extract
data from, even after you've signed the NDA. I get
partial access to their data, and have to request
access to new parts or groups of parts.

Still the Marvell parts are used on most of the
Digilent boards and I've used them in our products
as well. They are relatively easy to work with
once you get the datasheet, so the lack of other
support is not a big issue (especially after using
the basics from the Digilent board designs).

-- Gabor
 
On Feb 11, 5:45 am, Gabor <ga...@alacron.com> wrote:
National may be the ONLY vendor of networking chips
that doesn't require an NDA for datasheets.  I know
that Marvell and Broadcom are extremely hard to extract
data from, even after you've signed the NDA.  I get
partial access to their data, and have to request
access to new parts or groups of parts.

Still the Marvell parts are used on most of the
Digilent boards and I've used them in our products
as well.  They are relatively easy to work with
once you get the datasheet, so the lack of other
support is not a big issue (especially after using
the basics from the Digilent board designs).

-- Gabor
Click to expand...
The Micrel KSZ9021RL PHY is openly documented, and seems to be working
out well for the HPSDR guys ( http://openhpsdr.org/wiki/index.php?title=METIS
). I bought one of their eval boards awhile back but haven't had time
to do anything with it.

Haven't heard much about National's gigabit PHY options, one way or
the other.

-- john, KE5FX
 
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