P
Pooh Bear
Guest
in a very real sense, DC does not exist. < sic >
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A
Al Borowski
Guest
Pooh Bear wrote:
that carries a constant current for an infinite amount of time?
Al
But strictly speaking, it doesn't exist. Or can you suggest a circuitin a very real sense, DC does not exist. < sic
that carries a constant current for an infinite amount of time?
Al
K
Kevin Aylward
Guest
Pooh Bear wrote:
discuss DC as the lim f->0. Many concepts can't actually exist ideally
in the real world.
Like, "free will" can not exist. We cant be more than our gene and meme
programming, with a bit quantum randomness thrown in for good measure.
However, we have a pretty good approximation so so we can just continue
our lives with the illusion that there is an "I" that can take action.
Kevin Aylward
informationEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
Yes. This is trivially obvious. However, the "accepted" default is toin a very real sense, DC does not exist. < sic
discuss DC as the lim f->0. Many concepts can't actually exist ideally
in the real world.
Like, "free will" can not exist. We cant be more than our gene and meme
programming, with a bit quantum randomness thrown in for good measure.
However, we have a pretty good approximation so so we can just continue
our lives with the illusion that there is an "I" that can take action.
Kevin Aylward
informationEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
J
John Larkin
Guest
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 08:51:07 +0100, Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
John
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
Statements like this separate BSers from engineers.in a very real sense, DC does not exist. < sic
John
G
Guy Macon
Guest
John Larkin wrote:
snip so as to make a true statement look silly. I expect that
sort of thing from the flamers, but I also expect those who
have brains to see through such childish ploys.
The original statement was by me, and was in response to a
comment about my using the tern "DC" to refer to what happens
after you hook a battery to a long cable but before enough
time elapses for a reflection to get back to the battery.
I wrote:
"Well, yes; in a very real sense, DC does not exist. No DC
signal has the attribute of having a fixed voltage that has
been there for an infinite amount of time and will be there
for an infinite amount of time. All signals that we call
"DC" are actually pulses with the pulse width limited by the
beginning and end of the universe. One could argue that our
infinite transmission line is also limited by the size of the
universe, but in the case of a transmission line we can cheat
by putting a matched terminator on the end of a billion-parsec
cable.
That's not BS. That's an accurate description of the limitations
that come along with a certain narrow definition of "DC." If you
define "DC" as never having a start or an end (with the associated
rise and fall times), then *by definition* DC doesn't exist in a
universe that has a finite age, and *by definition* everything
that we call DC is actually just a very long pulse.
As far as the question of who is and isn't an engineer goes,
I hope you were referring to "Pooh Bear" and not me. If anyone
thinks that I am not an engineer, I suggest that that they avoid
flying on a Boeing 757 or any subsequent aircraft that uses the
same thrust-reverser drive electronics. They should stay away
from AV8Bs and C17s, too.
Unless I am mistaken, nobody here has delivered a larger number
of electronic products into customer's hands than I have. That
isn't a very good metric of engineering skills, of course; making
one copy of a brilliant design takes more skill than making 100,000
copies per day of a rather ordinary design. Still, it was nice to
find out that over 50% of US girls in the 8-10 Yr, range have played
with a toy that I created. Making children happy is something
to be proud of.
Pooh Bear didn't write that, but he did do a major selectivePooh Bear wrote:
in a very real sense, DC does not exist. < sic
Statements like this separate BSers from engineers.
snip so as to make a true statement look silly. I expect that
sort of thing from the flamers, but I also expect those who
have brains to see through such childish ploys.
The original statement was by me, and was in response to a
comment about my using the tern "DC" to refer to what happens
after you hook a battery to a long cable but before enough
time elapses for a reflection to get back to the battery.
I wrote:
"Well, yes; in a very real sense, DC does not exist. No DC
signal has the attribute of having a fixed voltage that has
been there for an infinite amount of time and will be there
for an infinite amount of time. All signals that we call
"DC" are actually pulses with the pulse width limited by the
beginning and end of the universe. One could argue that our
infinite transmission line is also limited by the size of the
universe, but in the case of a transmission line we can cheat
by putting a matched terminator on the end of a billion-parsec
cable.
That's not BS. That's an accurate description of the limitations
that come along with a certain narrow definition of "DC." If you
define "DC" as never having a start or an end (with the associated
rise and fall times), then *by definition* DC doesn't exist in a
universe that has a finite age, and *by definition* everything
that we call DC is actually just a very long pulse.
As far as the question of who is and isn't an engineer goes,
I hope you were referring to "Pooh Bear" and not me. If anyone
thinks that I am not an engineer, I suggest that that they avoid
flying on a Boeing 757 or any subsequent aircraft that uses the
same thrust-reverser drive electronics. They should stay away
from AV8Bs and C17s, too.
Unless I am mistaken, nobody here has delivered a larger number
of electronic products into customer's hands than I have. That
isn't a very good metric of engineering skills, of course; making
one copy of a brilliant design takes more skill than making 100,000
copies per day of a rather ordinary design. Still, it was nice to
find out that over 50% of US girls in the 8-10 Yr, range have played
with a toy that I created. Making children happy is something
to be proud of.
L
Larry Brasfield
Guest
"Guy Macon" <_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote
in message news:11cgbp2gmgn9i08@corp.supernews.com...
[snip other stuff]
The "Who is an engineer?" game is for suckers. Nobody
whose opinion you should care about would extend an
invitation to play. Accepting such an invitation is more
demeaning than ignoring the implied taunt.
--
--Larry Brasfield
email: donotspam_larry_brasfield@hotmail.com
Above views may belong only to me.
in message news:11cgbp2gmgn9i08@corp.supernews.com...
[snip other stuff]
As far as the question of who is and isn't an engineer goes,
I hope you were referring to "Pooh Bear" and not me. If anyone
thinks that I am not an engineer, I suggest
[snip apparent effort to play]
The "Who is an engineer?" game is for suckers. Nobody
whose opinion you should care about would extend an
invitation to play. Accepting such an invitation is more
demeaning than ignoring the implied taunt.
--
--Larry Brasfield
email: donotspam_larry_brasfield@hotmail.com
Above views may belong only to me.
F
Fred Bloggs
Guest
Guy Macon wrote:
sure you had nothing to do with...no great skill level required there.
market. You were a mere commodity engineer realizing the specifications
of the more talented and creative people- sorta like architect vs
building contractor relationship.
It's just a solenoid drive system with some interlock stuff that I'mIf anyone
thinks that I am not an engineer, I suggest that that they avoid
flying on a Boeing 757 or any subsequent aircraft that uses the
same thrust-reverser drive electronics.
sure you had nothing to do with...no great skill level required there.
Yes- but you did not conceive the toy or have true knowledge of theStill, it was nice to
find out that over 50% of US girls in the 8-10 Yr, range have played
with a toy that I created.
market. You were a mere commodity engineer realizing the specifications
of the more talented and creative people- sorta like architect vs
building contractor relationship.
J
John Larkin
Guest
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 18:24:58 +0000, Guy Macon
<_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote:
Thank you for making my point. Next, why don't you prove that AC
doesn't exist, them move on to resistance and inductance.
Hey, your product-dev group is picking up! It's averaged almost one
new thread introduced per day! Of course, 90% of them are posted by
Guy Macon.
John
<_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote:
That's not BS. That's an accurate description of the limitations
that come along with a certain narrow definition of "DC." If you
define "DC" as never having a start or an end (with the associated
rise and fall times), then *by definition* DC doesn't exist in a
universe that has a finite age, and *by definition* everything
that we call DC is actually just a very long pulse.
Thank you for making my point. Next, why don't you prove that AC
doesn't exist, them move on to resistance and inductance.
Hey, your product-dev group is picking up! It's averaged almost one
new thread introduced per day! Of course, 90% of them are posted by
Guy Macon.
John
F
Fred Bloggs
Guest
John Larkin wrote:
constant in the system - any "engineer" knows that.
Yep- it's all relative. DC is anything longer than 1e6 x longest timeOn Sun, 03 Jul 2005 18:24:58 +0000, Guy Macon
_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote:
That's not BS. That's an accurate description of the limitations
that come along with a certain narrow definition of "DC." If you
define "DC" as never having a start or an end (with the associated
rise and fall times), then *by definition* DC doesn't exist in a
universe that has a finite age, and *by definition* everything
that we call DC is actually just a very long pulse.
Thank you for making my point. Next, why don't you prove that AC
doesn't exist, them move on to resistance and inductance.
constant in the system - any "engineer" knows that.
The last thing any *real* product developer will do is give away the farm.Hey, your product-dev group is picking up! It's averaged almost one
new thread introduced per day! Of course, 90% of them are posted by
Guy Macon.
John
D
Don Bowey
Guest
It would sure be great if there was a way to shoot this miserable thread to
put it out of it's misery.
put it out of it's misery.
G
Guy Macon
Guest
John Larkin wrote:
resort to tactics unworthy of a high-school debate.
threads unless there is a new topic, unlike sci.electronics.design,
where every topic becomes fragmented into several drifting threads.
The startup period for sci.electronics.design had fewer posters and
less activity, despite the considerable advantage of having a large
number of people who had voted for the groups a few weeks earlier.
It appears that you find personal attacks to be an acceptable
substitute for a civil discussion of the topic at hand. My time
is too valuable to waste on post that contain no actual content.
I am putting you on a one-month killfile, and may extend it when
I later evaluate whether you have decided to contribute to any
discussions about electronics design.
*plonk*
Translation: you don't have any data or logical arguments so youGuy Macon wrote:
That's not BS. That's an accurate description of the limitations
that come along with a certain narrow definition of "DC." If you
define "DC" as never having a start or an end (with the associated
rise and fall times), then *by definition* DC doesn't exist in a
universe that has a finite age, and *by definition* everything
that we call DC is actually just a very long pulse.
Thank you for making my point. Next, why don't you prove that AC
doesn't exist, them move on to resistance and inductance.
resort to tactics unworthy of a high-school debate.
New threads are a poor metric. The moderator is preventing newHey, your product-dev group is picking up! It's averaged almost one
new thread introduced per day!
threads unless there is a new topic, unlike sci.electronics.design,
where every topic becomes fragmented into several drifting threads.
The startup period for sci.electronics.design had fewer posters and
less activity, despite the considerable advantage of having a large
number of people who had voted for the groups a few weeks earlier.
It appears that you find personal attacks to be an acceptable
substitute for a civil discussion of the topic at hand. My time
is too valuable to waste on post that contain no actual content.
I am putting you on a one-month killfile, and may extend it when
I later evaluate whether you have decided to contribute to any
discussions about electronics design.
*plonk*
G
Guy Macon
Guest
Don Bowey wrote:
users:
[ http://www.grandfenwick.net/dave/applescripts/ThreadKiller.html ]
I don't use Entourage so I haven't tried it myself. If it works for
you, please let me know. Thanks!
Also see [ http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile/killfilefaqhtm.htm ]
I have heard that this will do the job for you Mocrosoft EntourageIt would sure be great if there was a way to shoot this miserable thread to
put it out of it's misery.
users:
[ http://www.grandfenwick.net/dave/applescripts/ThreadKiller.html ]
I don't use Entourage so I haven't tried it myself. If it works for
you, please let me know. Thanks!
Also see [ http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile/killfilefaqhtm.htm ]
G
Guy Macon
Guest
John Popelish wrote:
True, but Pooh Bear didn't write that.Pooh Bear wrote:
in a very real sense, DC does not exist. < sic
Neither does a pure sine wave AC. Both are defined as
existing for all time.
J
John Popelish
Guest
Pooh Bear wrote:
all time.
Neither does a pure sine wave AC. Both are defined as existing forin a very real sense, DC does not exist. < sic
all time.
R
Rich The Philosophizer
Guest
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 11:04:01 +0000, Kevin Aylward wrote:
you're constructed of. Just because you can't see your own eyeball
without a mirror doesn't mean that your eyeball doesn't exist.
you'll find out the truth eventually, except with this attitude, by
the time you do, you'll be dead and won't be able to do anything
with it. )-;
Here's a couple of quotes:
"Here in duality there are two kinds of everything, and Will is no
exception. Even though the magnetic essence we know as 'Will' is primal
and ultimately unified, the Mother of all Creation... not all of her
essence is 'free'. While some of her essence is free to spontaneously
move and create according to her desires... by far the majority, the best
and most important part of her essence... is trapped.
"Of the 'trapped' Will, there are also two types. One type is 'present'
and known, the other is 'lost' and unknown. Lost Will is trapped Will
that has been pushed so far away from free Will and the Light that
sustains her existence, that she can no longer magnetize herself back to
the rest of Will. All trapped Will suffers to some degree. Lost Will is
hopelessly isolated and alone, and is suffering greatly.
"Will is very magnetic, and draws to herself more essence that is like
her. Free Will draws more free Will to herself, and trapped Will draws
more of the same to herself. These two types of Will have long been at
odds with each other. Free Will has hated the pain, desolation and
drudgery that is the constant experience of trapped Will, and has sought
freedom from this by distancing herself as much as possible from trapped
Will. Trapped Will has hated free Will for going off in search of more
freedom, and so readily abandoning her, leaving her with what has trapped
her."
-- http://www.godchannel.com/freewill.html
"If there was no free will I could simply make you know what you need to
know and do what you need to do to become Who You Truly Are. This
universe doesn't work that way, however. You must choose for yourself,
and the classes can help you know the issues and your options. With
these classes and like any teacher, I can influence you to the extent
you are willing to be influenced."
-- http://www.godchannel.com/interview.html
--
Good Luck!
Rich
for further information, please visit http://www.godchannel.com
It only seems that way, because Free Will is the raw material thatPooh Bear wrote:
in a very real sense, DC does not exist. < sic
Yes. This is trivially obvious. However, the "accepted" default is to
discuss DC as the lim f->0. Many concepts can't actually exist ideally
in the real world.
Like, "free will" can not exist.
you're constructed of. Just because you can't see your own eyeball
without a mirror doesn't mean that your eyeball doesn't exist.
Well, I see how you're going to great lengths to deny your own Will -We cant be more than our gene and meme
programming, with a bit quantum randomness thrown in for good measure.
you'll find out the truth eventually, except with this attitude, by
the time you do, you'll be dead and won't be able to do anything
with it. )-;
Here's a couple of quotes:
"Here in duality there are two kinds of everything, and Will is no
exception. Even though the magnetic essence we know as 'Will' is primal
and ultimately unified, the Mother of all Creation... not all of her
essence is 'free'. While some of her essence is free to spontaneously
move and create according to her desires... by far the majority, the best
and most important part of her essence... is trapped.
"Of the 'trapped' Will, there are also two types. One type is 'present'
and known, the other is 'lost' and unknown. Lost Will is trapped Will
that has been pushed so far away from free Will and the Light that
sustains her existence, that she can no longer magnetize herself back to
the rest of Will. All trapped Will suffers to some degree. Lost Will is
hopelessly isolated and alone, and is suffering greatly.
"Will is very magnetic, and draws to herself more essence that is like
her. Free Will draws more free Will to herself, and trapped Will draws
more of the same to herself. These two types of Will have long been at
odds with each other. Free Will has hated the pain, desolation and
drudgery that is the constant experience of trapped Will, and has sought
freedom from this by distancing herself as much as possible from trapped
Will. Trapped Will has hated free Will for going off in search of more
freedom, and so readily abandoning her, leaving her with what has trapped
her."
-- http://www.godchannel.com/freewill.html
"If there was no free will I could simply make you know what you need to
know and do what you need to do to become Who You Truly Are. This
universe doesn't work that way, however. You must choose for yourself,
and the classes can help you know the issues and your options. With
these classes and like any teacher, I can influence you to the extent
you are willing to be influenced."
-- http://www.godchannel.com/interview.html
--
Good Luck!
Rich
for further information, please visit http://www.godchannel.com
P
Pig Bladder
Guest
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 16:40:05 -0700, Don Bowey wrote:
Cheers!
Rich
There is. ;-)It would sure be great if there was a way to shoot this miserable thread to
put it out of it's misery.
Cheers!
Rich
G
Guy Macon
Guest
Pig Bladder wrote:
effective. Most newsreaders throw a "newsgroup does not exist"
error. Next time use alt.dev.null, a newsgroups that does exist
but which is moderated in such a way that all posts are rejected.
There is also another, better way to shoot this miserable thread
to put it out of it's misery. Here it is:
THE STANDARD ADVICE:
There is a way to influence what gets discussed in a newsgroup that
works well, and another way that has never worked no matter how many
people have tried it.
What works: Post articles on the topic you wish to see discussed,
and participate in the resulting discussion. Use killfiles and
filters so that you don't see the articles that you dislike.
If you don't know how to use a killfile, use good old fashioned
discipline and don't read the articles that you dislike. Never,
ever respond to articles that you dislike.
What doesn't work: Respond to articles that you dislike, complain
about articles that you dislike, complain about posters that you
dislike, complain about how terrible everyone else is for not posting
what you want them to post. Talk about how to respond to articles
that you dislike. Make the articles that you dislike the center of
attention, the main topic of discussion, and a personal crusade.
Alas. setting followups to alt.null as you have done isn't veryDon Bowey wrote:
It would sure be great if there was a way to shoot this
miserable thread to put it out of it's misery.
There is. ;-)
effective. Most newsreaders throw a "newsgroup does not exist"
error. Next time use alt.dev.null, a newsgroups that does exist
but which is moderated in such a way that all posts are rejected.
There is also another, better way to shoot this miserable thread
to put it out of it's misery. Here it is:
THE STANDARD ADVICE:
There is a way to influence what gets discussed in a newsgroup that
works well, and another way that has never worked no matter how many
people have tried it.
What works: Post articles on the topic you wish to see discussed,
and participate in the resulting discussion. Use killfiles and
filters so that you don't see the articles that you dislike.
If you don't know how to use a killfile, use good old fashioned
discipline and don't read the articles that you dislike. Never,
ever respond to articles that you dislike.
What doesn't work: Respond to articles that you dislike, complain
about articles that you dislike, complain about posters that you
dislike, complain about how terrible everyone else is for not posting
what you want them to post. Talk about how to respond to articles
that you dislike. Make the articles that you dislike the center of
attention, the main topic of discussion, and a personal crusade.
G
Guy Macon
Guest
Rich The Philosophizer wrote:
that free will doesn't exist? This is like shooting fish in a barrel.
If someone wishes to deny the existance of free will, that's fine
with me, but when they go on to claim that one is not responsible
for his actions, I get concerned. That philosophy isn't just
wrong; it is also the source of much evil in the world.
Rich, didn't you wipe the mat with Kevin the last time he claimedKevin Aylward wrote:
Like, "free will" can not exist.
It only seems that way, because Free Will is the raw material that
you're constructed of. Just because you can't see your own eyeball
without a mirror doesn't mean that your eyeball doesn't exist.
We cant be more than our gene and meme
programming, with a bit quantum randomness thrown in for good measure.
Well, I see how you're going to great lengths to deny your own Will -
you'll find out the truth eventually, except with this attitude, by
the time you do, you'll be dead and won't be able to do anything
with it. )-;
that free will doesn't exist? This is like shooting fish in a barrel.
If someone wishes to deny the existance of free will, that's fine
with me, but when they go on to claim that one is not responsible
for his actions, I get concerned. That philosophy isn't just
wrong; it is also the source of much evil in the world.
R
Rich Grise
Guest
On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 00:23:34 +0000, Guy Macon wrote:
personal freedom is because "freedom" comes with built-in baggage:
the dreaded "responsibility."
I read a really cool thing telling Libertarians that they're selling
the wrong product. There was a link a few weeks back about how
freedom incurs responsibility. There was a quote that stuck out in
my mind - I'll paraphrase: "Would you like your neighbor to be free
to do whatever he wants to do?" "Uh, well, what if he runs wild?"
"OK, then, would you like your neighbor to be responsible for his
actions?" "Of Course!"
Even I'm having a little trouble distinguishing "Freedom" from
"License" - true Free Will intrinsically includes responsibiliity,
and it intrinsically does no harm, because doing harm hurts. The
ones who do harm are those who deny Free Will.
Thanks!
Rich
I think one of the main reasons that people are so terrified ofRich The Philosophizer wrote:
Kevin Aylward wrote:
Like, "free will" can not exist.
It only seems that way, because Free Will is the raw material that
you're constructed of. Just because you can't see your own eyeball
without a mirror doesn't mean that your eyeball doesn't exist.
We cant be more than our gene and meme
programming, with a bit quantum randomness thrown in for good measure.
Well, I see how you're going to great lengths to deny your own Will -
you'll find out the truth eventually, except with this attitude, by
the time you do, you'll be dead and won't be able to do anything
with it. )-;
Rich, didn't you wipe the mat with Kevin the last time he claimed
that free will doesn't exist? This is like shooting fish in a barrel.
If someone wishes to deny the existance of free will, that's fine
with me, but when they go on to claim that one is not responsible
for his actions, I get concerned. That philosophy isn't just
wrong; it is also the source of much evil in the world.
personal freedom is because "freedom" comes with built-in baggage:
the dreaded "responsibility."
I read a really cool thing telling Libertarians that they're selling
the wrong product. There was a link a few weeks back about how
freedom incurs responsibility. There was a quote that stuck out in
my mind - I'll paraphrase: "Would you like your neighbor to be free
to do whatever he wants to do?" "Uh, well, what if he runs wild?"
"OK, then, would you like your neighbor to be responsible for his
actions?" "Of Course!"
Even I'm having a little trouble distinguishing "Freedom" from
"License" - true Free Will intrinsically includes responsibiliity,
and it intrinsically does no harm, because doing harm hurts. The
ones who do harm are those who deny Free Will.
Thanks!
Rich
P
Pooh Bear
Guest
John Popelish wrote:
RF where it moves quickly. ;-)
Graham
I've been known to refer to audio as 'slowly moving DC'. As opposed toPooh Bear wrote:
in a very real sense, DC does not exist. < sic
Neither does a pure sine wave AC. Both are defined as existing for
all time.
RF where it moves quickly. ;-)
Graham