GFCI Outlet Question

[mooseshoes]

All:

I have a house that is 2 years old and recently after testing my breaker box
switches for an outlet match I lost power to a few outlets and switches in
my home, including an external light, an outlet in the garage (used for the
sprinkler system) and one inside. I read where sometimes the GFCI outlets
get tripped so I paraded around my home and made sure every GFCI switch was
set properly and that all breaker switches were on. Still no power.

The likely culprit is a GFCI switch at the workbench in the garage. The
kicker, however, is that that outlet is working fine. It is controlled by
the breaker switch labeled "GFCI Garage."

Therefore, I have no way of figuring out why those outlets aren't
functioning. I've tried resetting all the breaker switches too...

Frustrating...

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,

Steve

-----
Look for decreasing temperatures this winter with the likelihood of warmer
weather in the spring.

 

[Jeff Wiseman]

Your GFCI thinking might be a red herring in this case. Does
"testing my breaker box switches for an outlet match" mean that
you went through and turned each breaker off and then on again to
determine which breaker was associated with which outlets? If so,
consider the following:

The problem may be with the main breaker that feeds those
outlets. Since asking if you actually turned all of the breakers
back on after your test might be a bit too obvious, I won't ask
It's possible that the main breaker for those outlets had
either tripped or failed internally when you returned it to the
"on" position after testing it. If it is tripped, there will
likely be a colored flag on the breaker indicating this and/or
the lever on the breaker will not be all the way into the "on"
position. A breaker that is tripped cannot be put directly back
into the "on" position by just pushing the level in that
direction. You must first reset the breaker by turning it off.
Then you can put it back into the "on" position.

If none of the breakers appear to have tripped, then you need to
remove the panel on the box and go down the row of breakers with
a meter to see if any of them have dead outputs even though they
are turned on.

- Jeff


mooseshoes wrote:

All:

I have a house that is 2 years old and recently after testing my breaker box
switches for an outlet match I lost power to a few outlets and switches in
my home, including an external light, an outlet in the garage (used for the
sprinkler system) and one inside. I read where sometimes the GFCI outlets
get tripped so I paraded around my home and made sure every GFCI switch was
set properly and that all breaker switches were on. Still no power.

The likely culprit is a GFCI switch at the workbench in the garage. The
kicker, however, is that that outlet is working fine. It is controlled by
the breaker switch labeled "GFCI Garage."

Therefore, I have no way of figuring out why those outlets aren't
functioning. I've tried resetting all the breaker switches too...

Frustrating...

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance,

Steve

-----
Look for decreasing temperatures this winter with the likelihood of warmer
weather in the spring.

 

[w_tom]

Time to take inventory - to define the circuit. Where does
wire go from receptacle to receptacle? First identify a
problem by defining it. Don't yet try to fix it. What is the
chain that interconnects those receptacles? Last receptacle
(of daisy chain) would only have a single black, wire, and
bare copper ground connected. Now work back; removing cover
plates and examining (taking inventory) of what is observed
behind receptacle and connected to that receptacle.

One early suspect is a receptacle that uses that plug-in
wire connector rather than wrapping wire around tightened
screws. Always connect to the screw and never use that press
in the back connection. This type of wiring is particularly
bad for electronics such as computers; but is quite acceptable
to incandescant lighting. Chances are a loose wire somewhere
between the first non-fuctional recpetacle and last functional
receptacle.

Inspection is required. If problem is due to bad
workmanship, then only inspection will identify the problem.
Often no need to remove receptacle from box. Inspection by
just removing cover plates will be quite informative.

Many tricks to locate this failure. This is just a simplest
and first step. When wiring failures occur, a most likely
reason is workmanship which is why visual inspection is so
important in locating reason for failure. You are looking for
a broken connection; not looking for a short circuit.

mooseshoes wrote:

All:

I have a house that is 2 years old and recently after testing my
breaker box switches for an outlet match I lost power to a few
outlets and switches in my home, including an external light, an
outlet in the garage (used for the sprinkler system) and one inside.
I read where sometimes the GFCI outlets get tripped so I paraded
around my home and made sure every GFCI switch was set properly and
that all breaker switches were on. Still no power.

The likely culprit is a GFCI switch at the workbench in the garage.
The kicker, however, is that that outlet is working fine. It is
controlled by the breaker switch labeled "GFCI Garage."

Therefore, I have no way of figuring out why those outlets aren't
functioning. I've tried resetting all the breaker switches too...

 

[mooseshoes]

<snip>

Time to take inventory - to define the circuit. Where does
wire go from receptacle to receptacle? First identify a
problem by defining it. Don't yet try to fix it. What is the
chain that interconnects those receptacles? Last receptacle
(of daisy chain) would only have a single black, wire, and
bare copper ground connected. Now work back; removing cover
plates and examining (taking inventory) of what is observed
behind receptacle and connected to that receptacle.

Thank you for the response. A good suggestion to examine each known
unpowered receptacle. I will take inventory.

<snip>

One early suspect is a receptacle that uses that plug-in
wire connector rather than wrapping wire around tightened
screws. Always connect to the screw and never use that press
in the back connection. This type of wiring is particularly
bad for electronics such as computers; but is quite acceptable
to incandescant lighting. Chances are a loose wire somewhere
between the first non-fuctional recpetacle and last functional
receptacle.

Checking the wiring will be simple, but knowing how the chain is
organized will be difficult without power with the exception of identifying

the last in the chain.

<snip>

Inspection is required. If problem is due to bad
workmanship, then only inspection will identify the problem.
Often no need to remove receptacle from box. Inspection by
just removing cover plates will be quite informative.

I'm hoping to avoid opening the breaker box, but I am willing. I have a
voltmeter which will come in handy.

Thanks again for your assistance. I'll let you know how it turns out.

 

[mooseshoes]

<snip>

Your GFCI thinking might be a red herring in this case. Does
"testing my breaker box switches for an outlet match" mean that
you went through and turned each breaker off and then on again to
determine which breaker was associated with which outlets? If so,
consider the following:

Thanks for your response. I'm also leaning away from the GFCI solution
at this point. Yes, the breaker test was to see which one went with each

of the outlets and switches.

<snip>

The problem may be with the main breaker that feeds those
outlets. Since asking if you actually turned all of the breakers
back on after your test might be a bit too obvious, I won't ask


Yep. In some cases several times to ensure a firm position.

<snip>

It's possible that the main breaker for those outlets had

either tripped or failed internally when you returned it to the
"on" position after testing it. If it is tripped, there will
likely be a colored flag on the breaker indicating this and/or
the lever on the breaker will not be all the way into the "on"
position. A breaker that is tripped cannot be put directly back
into the "on" position by just pushing the level in that
direction. You must first reset the breaker by turning it off.
Then you can put it back into the "on" position.

The leading contender for the breaker switch is labeled "GFCI garage"
and it is on a funky set of four switches, the middle two of which are

ganged and include the suspect switch. The outer two switches are ganged
as well. The switches, however, don't have the external characterstics of
being tripped because they switch quite readilty between an ON and OFF
state and stay firmly in the ON position.

<snip>

If none of the breakers appear to have tripped, then you need to
remove the panel on the box and go down the row of breakers with
a meter to see if any of them have dead outputs even though they
are turned on.

I certainly can do this if I need to. My understanding is that I need
to measure the voltage between the neutral bus bar (located near the top of

the box?) and the terminal (is there only one?) from each of the switch
locations.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Jeff Wiseman]

mooseshoes wrote:

If none of the breakers appear to have tripped, then you need to
remove the panel on the box and go down the row of breakers with
a meter to see if any of them have dead outputs even though they
are turned on.

I certainly can do this if I need to. My understanding is that I need
to measure the voltage between the neutral bus bar (located near the top of
the box?) and the terminal (is there only one?) from each of the switch
locations.

I would go ahead and try removing the panel. As long as you are
careful where you put your hands, you should be ok. DO NOT remove
the panel over the main house breaker (i.e., the BIG one).

Yes, you will measure between the neutral and the single terminal
on each breaker. If you have a breaker with two terminals
(screws) on the same side, it is basically just two breakers in
one package (like having two separate ones with ganged levers).
Note that the neutral bar is also attached to the box itself so
for testing purposes, you can connect one side of your meter to
any exposed metal on the box that is easy and safe to get to.
Then with all of the breakers "on", carefully go down and check
the AC voltage level on each breaker terminal. They should all be
at the SAME standard line voltage (something like 110VAC to
120VAC depending on where you live). For the sake of this test,
you can just ignore the fact that some breakers are ganged
together. If any of them has something less than that (say,
0-90volts), then something is wrong at the panel.

Although it is unlikely that a ganged breaker will be associated
with your fault (they are used for 240VAC circuits such as
airconditioners, electric stoves, and electic hot water tanks,
etc.) you should go ahead and test all of the breakers in the
main panel.

Note that I feel you should do this before any other diagnostics
at the outlets since you could spend hours tracing circuits at
the outlets before you finally discovered that the main source of
power to them has just been shut off.

- Jeff