Fuel Savings from Roadbed Electrification Pays for the Power

A busy freeway lane (1/2 safe following distance) dissipates 2 MW
mechanical energy/mile/lane.

Now let's be complete morons and ignore the supply - demand curve for
oil and ignore Obama holding the Fed by the short hairs and pretend
fuel will stay at $2.50 gallon:

$2.50/gallon X 2,000 kW/mile / (13 kW-hr mechanical energy/gallon) =

$385/mile-hr = $3.2 million/mile-year for fuel.

If the cost of a power plant is $4/watt then the cost of the power
plant/mile is $8 million.

In other words, the fuel savings from electrification would pay for
the capital cost of the power plants in 2 1/2 years.

If you don't want to be a complete moron and assume crazy nonsense
then assume the price of fuel will be $5/ gallon before anyone even
has time to spread sheet the matter.

Then the system pays for the power plant in 14 months.

Before anyone even has time to set up a demo project the price of fuel
will be $10/gallon and electrification will pay for the power plants
in 7 months.

But spread sheeting isn't necessary to compare costs because we know
the cost of doing nothing is infinite.

Inaction ain't an option.


Bret Cahill

 

[Marvin the Martian]

On Sat, 30 May 2009 10:23:14 -0700, Bret_E_Cahill wrote:

A busy freeway lane (1/2 safe following distance) dissipates 2 MW
mechanical energy/mile/lane.

Now let's be complete morons and ignore the supply - demand curve for
oil and ignore Obama holding the Fed by the short hairs and pretend fuel
will stay at $2.50 gallon:

$2.50/gallon X 2,000 kW/mile / (13 kW-hr mechanical energy/gallon) =

$385/mile-hr = $3.2 million/mile-year for fuel.

You're assuming a busy freeway all day and all night long?

If the cost of a power plant is $4/watt then the cost of the power
plant/mile is $8 million.

In other words, the fuel savings from electrification would pay for the
capital cost of the power plants in 2 1/2 years.

What is the cost to run power conductors in the roads, and to re-work all
cars to be electric? I'm not saying it is a bad idea; had we gone with
electric cars from the beginning, this would be an excellent idea. But it
sounds like a lot of re-work and the analysis isn't complete.



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In sci.physics Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com wrote:

A busy freeway lane (1/2 safe following distance) dissipates 2 MW
mechanical energy/mile/lane.

Now let's be complete morons and ignore the supply - demand curve for
oil and ignore Obama holding the Fed by the short hairs and pretend
fuel will stay at $2.50 gallon:

$2.50/gallon X 2,000 kW/mile / (13 kW-hr mechanical energy/gallon) =

$385/mile-hr = $3.2 million/mile-year for fuel.

If the cost of a power plant is $4/watt then the cost of the power
plant/mile is $8 million.

In other words, the fuel savings from electrification would pay for
the capital cost of the power plants in 2 1/2 years.

Maybe.

Your units are so bizarre it is hard to make sense of your numbers.

A more sane person would use the daily vehicle-miles times the
average vehicle MPG to get the fuel usage.

Now, what is the construction and maintenance costs to electrify
roadways?


--
Jim Pennino

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In sci.physics Marvin the Martian <marvin@ontomars.org> wrote:

On Sat, 30 May 2009 10:23:14 -0700, Bret_E_Cahill wrote:

A busy freeway lane (1/2 safe following distance) dissipates 2 MW
mechanical energy/mile/lane.

Now let's be complete morons and ignore the supply - demand curve for
oil and ignore Obama holding the Fed by the short hairs and pretend fuel
will stay at $2.50 gallon:

$2.50/gallon X 2,000 kW/mile / (13 kW-hr mechanical energy/gallon) =

$385/mile-hr = $3.2 million/mile-year for fuel.

You're assuming a busy freeway all day and all night long?

If the cost of a power plant is $4/watt then the cost of the power
plant/mile is $8 million.

In other words, the fuel savings from electrification would pay for the
capital cost of the power plants in 2 1/2 years.

What is the cost to run power conductors in the roads, and to re-work all
cars to be electric? I'm not saying it is a bad idea; had we gone with
electric cars from the beginning, this would be an excellent idea. But it
sounds like a lot of re-work and the analysis isn't complete.

Complete hell, it hasn't even started.

Power conductors in the road exposed to weather (and people) won't
work which is why they are only used in situations where the environment
is controlled.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

 

[Mark Thorson]

Marvin the Martian wrote:

On Sat, 30 May 2009 10:23:14 -0700, Bret_E_Cahill wrote:

If the cost of a power plant is $4/watt then the cost of the power
plant/mile is $8 million.

In other words, the fuel savings from electrification would pay for the
capital cost of the power plants in 2 1/2 years.

What is the cost to run power conductors in the roads, and to re-work all
cars to be electric? I'm not saying it is a bad idea; had we gone with
electric cars from the beginning, this would be an excellent idea. But it
sounds like a lot of re-work and the analysis isn't complete.

It might work in a small community. Zermatt in
Switzerland banned internal combustion engine
vehicles (except for some special vehicles like
fire engines) about 20 years ago, both to reduce
air pollution (important in this tourist town)
and because of the very narrow streets. Almost
all vehicle trffic is electric, running off
batteries. It would be much greener to have
no batteries at all and run everything directly
off the grid.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

On Sat, 30 May 2009 18:15:03 +0000, jimp wrote:

In sci.physics Marvin the Martian <marvin@ontomars.org> wrote:
On Sat, 30 May 2009 10:23:14 -0700, Bret_E_Cahill wrote:

A busy freeway lane (1/2 safe following distance) dissipates 2 MW
mechanical energy/mile/lane.

Now let's be complete morons and ignore the supply - demand curve for
oil and ignore Obama holding the Fed by the short hairs and pretend
fuel will stay at $2.50 gallon:

$2.50/gallon X 2,000 kW/mile / (13 kW-hr mechanical energy/gallon) =

$385/mile-hr = $3.2 million/mile-year for fuel.

You're assuming a busy freeway all day and all night long?

If the cost of a power plant is $4/watt then the cost of the power
plant/mile is $8 million.

In other words, the fuel savings from electrification would pay for
the capital cost of the power plants in 2 1/2 years.

What is the cost to run power conductors in the roads, and to re-work
all cars to be electric? I'm not saying it is a bad idea; had we gone
with electric cars from the beginning, this would be an excellent idea.
But it sounds like a lot of re-work and the analysis isn't complete.

Complete hell, it hasn't even started.

Power conductors in the road exposed to weather (and people) won't work
which is why they are only used in situations where the environment is
controlled.

You could probably do something with induction coils.

Electricity is cheap compared to gasoline, and electric motors are more
efficient than gasoline engines. In the world of trade offs, that will
buy some innovation.



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tolerate their abuse. If a flamer should get luck and ask an intelligent
question and you want it answered, repeat it for them.

 

[Eeyore]

Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com wrote:

A busy freeway lane (1/2 safe following distance) dissipates 2 MW
mechanical energy/mile/lane.

Calculations please ?

Graham

LOL @ dissipates ! There's nothing like someone who's an expert.
;~)

 

[Marvin the Martian]

On Sat, 30 May 2009 11:29:52 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:

Marvin the Martian wrote:

On Sat, 30 May 2009 10:23:14 -0700, Bret_E_Cahill wrote:

If the cost of a power plant is $4/watt then the cost of the power
plant/mile is $8 million.

In other words, the fuel savings from electrification would pay for
the capital cost of the power plants in 2 1/2 years.

What is the cost to run power conductors in the roads, and to re-work
all cars to be electric? I'm not saying it is a bad idea; had we gone
with electric cars from the beginning, this would be an excellent idea.
But it sounds like a lot of re-work and the analysis isn't complete.

It might work in a small community. Zermatt in Switzerland banned
internal combustion engine vehicles (except for some special vehicles
like fire engines) about 20 years ago, both to reduce air pollution
(important in this tourist town) and because of the very narrow streets.
Almost all vehicle trffic is electric, running off batteries. It would
be much greener to have no batteries at all and run everything directly
off the grid.

I once considered an electric car conversion, because electricity is
cheaper than gasoline. The batteries are the killer. Cost of batteries
per mile is about the same as gasoline per mile. That pushed the
advantage to the gasoline powered car.

If you could dispose of the batteries, it would be no contest: electric
cars would be the way to go.

--
Flamer & Trolls happily killfiled, as they should. No one should have to
tolerate their abuse. If a flamer should get luck and ask an intelligent
question and you want it answered, repeat it for them.

 

[Eeyore]

Marvin the Martian wrote:

What is the cost to run power conductors in the roads, and to re-work all
cars to be electric? I'm not saying it is a bad idea; had we gone with
electric cars from the beginning, this would be an excellent idea. But it
sounds like a lot of re-work and the analysis isn't complete.

Don't expect a sensible answer from Brett. He has no scientific knowledge.

Flamer & Trolls happily killfiled, as they should. No one should have to
tolerate their abuse. If a flamer should get luck and ask an intelligent
question and you want it answered, repeat it for them.

Too true.

Graham

--
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to my email address

 

[Eeyore]

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

Power conductors in the road exposed to weather (and people) won't
work which is why they are only used in situations where the environment
is controlled.

Do you use salt over there to de-ice roads ? Could be interesting seeing the
death toll.

Graham

--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious adjustment to
my email address

 

In sci.physics Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com wrote:

A busy freeway lane (1/2 safe following distance) dissipates 2 MW
mechanical energy/mile/lane.

Now let's be complete morons and ignore the supply - demand curve for
oil and ignore Obama holding the Fed by the short hairs and pretend fuel
will stay at $2.50 gallon:

$2.50/gallon X 2,000 kW/mile / ďż˝(13 kW-hr mechanical energy/gallon) =

$385/mile-hr = $3.2 million/mile-year for fuel.

You're assuming a busy freeway all day and all night long?

Come to think of it, solar does seem to provide the most power when
most are on the road.

Most of Southern California has been heavily overcast for about 2
weeks now.

The peak in afternoon traffic is when the sun is so low there is very
little solar "power" to be had and in the winter it is after sunset.

The peak in morning traffic is when the sun is still so low there is
very little solar "power" to be had.

But don't let the real world intrude on your arm waving plans to save
the world.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

 

In sci.physics Mark Thorson <nospam@sonic.net> wrote:

Marvin the Martian wrote:

On Sat, 30 May 2009 10:23:14 -0700, Bret_E_Cahill wrote:

If the cost of a power plant is $4/watt then the cost of the power
plant/mile is $8 million.

In other words, the fuel savings from electrification would pay for the
capital cost of the power plants in 2 1/2 years.

What is the cost to run power conductors in the roads, and to re-work all
cars to be electric? I'm not saying it is a bad idea; had we gone with
electric cars from the beginning, this would be an excellent idea. But it
sounds like a lot of re-work and the analysis isn't complete.

It might work in a small community. Zermatt in
Switzerland banned internal combustion engine
vehicles (except for some special vehicles like
fire engines) about 20 years ago, both to reduce
air pollution (important in this tourist town)
and because of the very narrow streets. Almost
all vehicle trffic is electric, running off
batteries. It would be much greener to have
no batteries at all and run everything directly
off the grid.

And if we had Mr. Fusioni running on banana peels, life would be wonderful.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

 

[Eeyore]

Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com wrote:

Come to think of it, solar does seem to provide the most power when
most are on the road.

Solar provides bugger all power. Assume a vehicle 5m x 2m = 10 m2 area and
1kW/m2 peak insolation. Totally covered by modern solar panels it might generate
as much as 1.5kW. That's ~ TWO horsepower. Walking would be faster. Actually,
two hp probably wouldn't overcome frictional effects.

Graham

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[Eeyore]

Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com wrote:

Now, what is the construction and maintenance costs to electrify
roadways?

The answer to that will require some funding.

No, it's readily estimable and totally stupid, like you. Go back to your toy
race cars.

Graham

--
due to the hugely increased level of spam please make the obvious adjustment to
my email address

 

[Marvin the Martian]

On Sat, 30 May 2009 19:40:51 +0100, Eeyore wrote:

Marvin the Martian wrote:

What is the cost to run power conductors in the roads, and to re-work
all cars to be electric? I'm not saying it is a bad idea; had we gone
with electric cars from the beginning, this would be an excellent idea.
But it sounds like a lot of re-work and the analysis isn't complete.

Don't expect a sensible answer from Brett. He has no scientific
knowledge.

I'm not at all down on electric cars. I tried to make it work for me, and
it just wasn't practical. If you could dispose of the battery issue,
electric cars would be great. Perhaps an induction system where magnetic
coils are implanted into the road bed or something. Those overhead wires
used on electric buses are right out for freeway use; they don't work at
60+ MPH.

Perhaps something similar to an electric train, where you drive your gas
car onto a flat-bed rail car/engine.

I don't know. It is fun to consider the alternatives.

Flamer & Trolls happily killfiled, as they should. No one should have
to tolerate their abuse. If a flamer should get luck and ask an
intelligent question and you want it answered, repeat it for them.

Too true.

Graham

--
Flamer & Trolls happily killfiled, as they should. No one should have to
tolerate their abuse. If a flamer should get luck and ask an intelligent
question and you want it answered, repeat it for them.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

On Sat, 30 May 2009 19:48:30 +0100, Eeyore wrote:

Bret_E_Cahill@yahoo.com wrote:

Now, what is the construction and maintenance costs to electrify
roadways?

The answer to that will require some funding.

No, it's readily estimable and totally stupid, like you. Go back to your
toy race cars.

Graham

Let's not flame!






--
Flamer & Trolls happily killfiled, as they should. No one should have to
tolerate their abuse. If a flamer should get luck and ask an intelligent
question and you want it answered, repeat it for them.

 

In sci.physics Marvin the Martian <marvin@ontomars.org> wrote:

On Sat, 30 May 2009 18:15:03 +0000, jimp wrote:

In sci.physics Marvin the Martian <marvin@ontomars.org> wrote:
On Sat, 30 May 2009 10:23:14 -0700, Bret_E_Cahill wrote:

A busy freeway lane (1/2 safe following distance) dissipates 2 MW
mechanical energy/mile/lane.

Now let's be complete morons and ignore the supply - demand curve for
oil and ignore Obama holding the Fed by the short hairs and pretend
fuel will stay at $2.50 gallon:

$2.50/gallon X 2,000 kW/mile / (13 kW-hr mechanical energy/gallon) =

$385/mile-hr = $3.2 million/mile-year for fuel.

You're assuming a busy freeway all day and all night long?

If the cost of a power plant is $4/watt then the cost of the power
plant/mile is $8 million.

In other words, the fuel savings from electrification would pay for
the capital cost of the power plants in 2 1/2 years.

What is the cost to run power conductors in the roads, and to re-work
all cars to be electric? I'm not saying it is a bad idea; had we gone
with electric cars from the beginning, this would be an excellent idea.
But it sounds like a lot of re-work and the analysis isn't complete.

Complete hell, it hasn't even started.

Power conductors in the road exposed to weather (and people) won't work
which is why they are only used in situations where the environment is
controlled.

You could probably do something with induction coils.

Even more expensive, lossy, and would never get past the NIMBY's for general
use.

Electricity is cheap compared to gasoline, and electric motors are more
efficient than gasoline engines. In the world of trade offs, that will
buy some innovation.

True, but electrical power has two very large problems for moving things
that can't be ignored:

It doesn't store well.

It doesn't transport well absent wires.

The only sort of electric transportation that works in the real world
exposed to the elements is overhead wires.


--
Jim Pennino

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In sci.physics Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@notmail.com> wrote:

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

Power conductors in the road exposed to weather (and people) won't
work which is why they are only used in situations where the environment
is controlled.

Do you use salt over there to de-ice roads ? Could be interesting seeing the
death toll.

No salt needed, just a good, steady rain.

Of course, one presumes that all the breakers would blow before too many
people got fried.

--
Jim Pennino

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In sci.physics Marvin the Martian <marvin@ontomars.org> wrote:

On Sat, 30 May 2009 11:29:52 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:

Marvin the Martian wrote:

On Sat, 30 May 2009 10:23:14 -0700, Bret_E_Cahill wrote:

If the cost of a power plant is $4/watt then the cost of the power
plant/mile is $8 million.

In other words, the fuel savings from electrification would pay for
the capital cost of the power plants in 2 1/2 years.

What is the cost to run power conductors in the roads, and to re-work
all cars to be electric? I'm not saying it is a bad idea; had we gone
with electric cars from the beginning, this would be an excellent idea.
But it sounds like a lot of re-work and the analysis isn't complete.

It might work in a small community. Zermatt in Switzerland banned
internal combustion engine vehicles (except for some special vehicles
like fire engines) about 20 years ago, both to reduce air pollution
(important in this tourist town) and because of the very narrow streets.
Almost all vehicle trffic is electric, running off batteries. It would
be much greener to have no batteries at all and run everything directly
off the grid.


I once considered an electric car conversion, because electricity is
cheaper than gasoline. The batteries are the killer. Cost of batteries
per mile is about the same as gasoline per mile. That pushed the
advantage to the gasoline powered car.

If you could dispose of the batteries, it would be no contest: electric
cars would be the way to go.

If you had a dilithium matter-antimatter converter...

If you had Mr. Fusion...

If you had Tinkerbell's pixie dust...

--
Jim Pennino

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In sci.physics Marvin the Martian <marvin@ontomars.org> wrote:

On Sat, 30 May 2009 19:40:51 +0100, Eeyore wrote:

Marvin the Martian wrote:

What is the cost to run power conductors in the roads, and to re-work
all cars to be electric? I'm not saying it is a bad idea; had we gone
with electric cars from the beginning, this would be an excellent idea.
But it sounds like a lot of re-work and the analysis isn't complete.

Don't expect a sensible answer from Brett. He has no scientific
knowledge.

I'm not at all down on electric cars. I tried to make it work for me, and
it just wasn't practical. If you could dispose of the battery issue,
electric cars would be great. Perhaps an induction system where magnetic
coils are implanted into the road bed or something. Those overhead wires
used on electric buses are right out for freeway use; they don't work at
60+ MPH.

Perhaps something similar to an electric train, where you drive your gas
car onto a flat-bed rail car/engine.

The embarkation/debarkation time and hassle would be a killer for anything
but long trips.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.