Frustrations with Marketing

[rickman]

Here is a perfect example of what is wrong with Marketing in engineering
companies. I recently asked Xilinx for a "Spartan-3 Resource CD". It
has been a couple of weeks since I requested it, so I don't remember if
I expected it to contain something especially useful (like a copy of
Webpack) or if I thought it would contain only data sheets. In any
event, it came today. It does not contain Webpack. It only uses less
than 100 MB of the available 650 MB to provide a few data sheets, app
notes and the Acrobat reader. What's more, when it autostarted on
loading the CD, it opened a window for Flash player. But this Flash
player does not seem to work correctly and I can't use it to view
anything past the second level of menu.

I can read any of the data sheets on the CD without the viewer. But
what is the point of spending a lot of time on this silly viewer only to
have it not work on an otherwise functional machine? Also, what is the
point of sending out this sort of marketing drivel for free and yet
charging to send out "free" software which is much harder to download
intact from the web site? I can download data sheets and app notes
easily even over my slow modem connection. IIRC, the Webpack is about
180 MB for the newest release. Why does this necessitate a charge to
get a copy on CD when CDs are clearly considered a minor expense? In
volumes of 1000's CDs only cost around a dollar to make and mail
including US postage.

In general, I find marketing at most companies to work against their
best interests. But then they do make for good copy in the Dilbert
column.

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

 

[Jerry]

Marketing is full of engineers who couldn't design their way out of a paper
bag.

"rickman" <spamgoeshere4@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3F79060D.1FF4C408@yahoo.com...

Here is a perfect example of what is wrong with Marketing in engineering
companies. I recently asked Xilinx for a "Spartan-3 Resource CD". It
has been a couple of weeks since I requested it, so I don't remember if
I expected it to contain something especially useful (like a copy of
Webpack) or if I thought it would contain only data sheets. In any
event, it came today. It does not contain Webpack. It only uses less
than 100 MB of the available 650 MB to provide a few data sheets, app
notes and the Acrobat reader. What's more, when it autostarted on
loading the CD, it opened a window for Flash player. But this Flash
player does not seem to work correctly and I can't use it to view
anything past the second level of menu.

I can read any of the data sheets on the CD without the viewer. But
what is the point of spending a lot of time on this silly viewer only to
have it not work on an otherwise functional machine? Also, what is the
point of sending out this sort of marketing drivel for free and yet
charging to send out "free" software which is much harder to download
intact from the web site? I can download data sheets and app notes
easily even over my slow modem connection. IIRC, the Webpack is about
180 MB for the newest release. Why does this necessitate a charge to
get a copy on CD when CDs are clearly considered a minor expense? In
volumes of 1000's CDs only cost around a dollar to make and mail
including US postage.

In general, I find marketing at most companies to work against their
best interests. But then they do make for good copy in the Dilbert
column.

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

 

[Vinh Pham]

Marketing is full of engineers who couldn't design their way out of a
paper
bag.

Ever seen three design engineers standing around, trying to figure out how
to work a Xerox machine?

 

[Ron Huizen]

Yes, but there are a few reasons for that (Xerox machine, not paper bag):

1. We could learn how to use it, but we'd rather spend our time on more
interesting stuff (the old Farside cartoon where the kid puts his hand up in
class and says "Excuse me, sir, but my brain is full").

2. We read Users Manuals as a last resort. If the user interace is designed
well, we shouldn't need one. If it isn't designed well, it pisses us off
and we don't want to use the thing

3. If we figured it out, everyone else would expect us to help them with it
How tired are you of telling friends you work in computers and they
immediately expect you to fix their problems with Word on their PC for them.

4. When we do decide to figure it out, we want to really understand how it
works, not just how to push the buttons, and we don't have time for that.

By the way, how many engineers do you know who do not have the clocks set on
their VCR? Not many I bet ...

As for marketing being full of engineers who couldn't design their way out
of a paper bag, the key is whether they realize they couldn't design their
way out of a paper bag or not ...

------------
Ron Huizen
BittWare


"Vinh Pham" <a@a.a> wrote in message
news:R_qeb.18681$Ak3.11446@twister.socal.rr.com...

Marketing is full of engineers who couldn't design their way out of a
paper
bag.

Ever seen three design engineers standing around, trying to figure out how
to work a Xerox machine?

 

[Andy Peters]

"Vinh Pham" <a@a.a> wrote in message news:<R_qeb.18681$Ak3.11446@twister.socal.rr.com>...

Marketing is full of engineers who couldn't design their way out of a
paper
bag.

Ever seen three design engineers standing around, trying to figure out how
to work a Xerox machine?

That's not a design-engineering problem -- that's a user interface
problem. The design engineer did NOT spec how the UI interacts with
the human user.

The design engineers were given a task: "Put ten buttons and a display
on this board. Here's what should happen in response to keypresses."

It's up to the company's usability people (if such people exist) to
determine what sort of front panel is needed and to ensure that
whatever they come up with makes sense.

Besides, if an engineer designed the interface, it'd be all hex

-a

 

[Vinh Pham]

2. We read Users Manuals as a last resort. If the user interace is
designed

Heh yeah, we've stood around the machine while the manual was right there,
begging to be read, making a tech writer somewhere pull their hair out.

well, we shouldn't need one. If it isn't designed well, it pisses us off
and we don't want to use the thing

Hahaha, it reminds me of the fax machine scenes from the movie Office Space.
The one where they beat the crap out of it still cracks me up.

3. If we figured it out, everyone else would expect us to help them with
it
How tired are you of telling friends you work in computers and they
immediately expect you to fix their problems with Word on their PC for
them.

(cringe) And don't forget about repairing TVs. It seems electrical
engineer = electrician :_(

As for marketing being full of engineers who couldn't design their way out
of a paper bag, the key is whether they realize they couldn't design their
way out of a paper bag or not ...

Wise words. As long as they stick to what they do well, and leave me to do
what I do well. Watchout otherwise.

 

[Vinh Pham]

It's up to the company's usability people (if such people exist) to
determine what sort of front panel is needed and to ensure that
whatever they come up with makes sense.

Yup, usability isn't given much thought these days. And when it's done
well, no one notices.

Besides, if an engineer designed the interface, it'd be all hex

LOL. I had a boss who could multiply two digit hex numbers faster than you
could use a calculator. Scary.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 1 Oct 2003 08:05:01 -0400) it happened "Ron Huizen"
<rhuizen@bittware.com> wrote in <vnlgp85kcc6f78@corp.supernews.com>:

Yes, but there are a few reasons for that (Xerox machine, not paper bag):

1. We could learn how to use it, but we'd rather spend our time on more
interesting stuff (the old Farside cartoon where the kid puts his hand up in
class and says "Excuse me, sir, but my brain is full").
I have been technician in a TV broadcast environment for many years.

You had to repair equipment you did not even have a clue how to use.
'the video editing of this machine has problems, can you have a look at it?'
(Large quadruplex 1 million dollar machines...)
I'd ask: Can you show me so I can see what is wrong?
(So I could see how they used that interface...)
Then get out the manuals and find the defective transistor or whatever component..

But the expression on the face of those people if they figured you did not even know
how to use it...
hehe
And it always needed fixing immediatly too.
I always told them, 'I don't how to use it, you show me, then I will fix it.'
Only engineers understand that perhaps..
JP

 

[Vinh Pham]

I always told them, 'I don't how to use it, you show me, then I will fix
it.'
Only engineers understand that perhaps..

LOL, "I just write the code, it doesn't mean I know how to use it."

That started to happen a lot as our product got more complex. After a
while, I couldn't reproduce bugs by myself, I had to get help.

 

[Tom Seim]

Xilinx's marketing is about as bad as it gets. Frankly, I'm surprised
that they are the largest FPGA vendor. I have had bad experiences with
them in the (far) past. In particular, when they changed vendors for
the serial proms. They cut off the old vendor with the (wishful)
thinking that the new one would take over. Well, the new one choked
big time and us users were left holding the bag. At the time I was
running my own company and desparately needed those parts. Good
luck!!! I was F**KED!!! Peter took exception the last time I mentioned
this. In private e-mail I reminded him that if Xilinx doesn't ship
product he still collects his pay check - as a private business owner
if I didn't ship product the revenue stopped.

My latest run in with brand X shouldn't have happened. I thought I was
doing them a favor by ordering a license renewal for $4K. Guess what?
XILINX SCREWED UP!!! We have a year end deadline (Sep 25); did Xilinx
care? NO!!!! Only by Hurcelean effort did I mananage to get the order
placed (after I started a week and a half before the deadline). I got
an apology from them. But SO WHAT!!

I think they have gotten full of themselves and don't really care.
They know us suckers have to deal with them no matter what. Well,
maybe we do. Doesn't make me feel any better.

 

[rickman]

Tom Seim wrote:

Xilinx's marketing is about as bad as it gets. Frankly, I'm surprised
that they are the largest FPGA vendor. I have had bad experiences with
them in the (far) past. In particular, when they changed vendors for
the serial proms. They cut off the old vendor with the (wishful)
thinking that the new one would take over. Well, the new one choked
big time and us users were left holding the bag. At the time I was
running my own company and desparately needed those parts. Good
luck!!! I was F**KED!!! Peter took exception the last time I mentioned
this. In private e-mail I reminded him that if Xilinx doesn't ship
product he still collects his pay check - as a private business owner
if I didn't ship product the revenue stopped.

My latest run in with brand X shouldn't have happened. I thought I was
doing them a favor by ordering a license renewal for $4K. Guess what?
XILINX SCREWED UP!!! We have a year end deadline (Sep 25); did Xilinx
care? NO!!!! Only by Hurcelean effort did I mananage to get the order
placed (after I started a week and a half before the deadline). I got
an apology from them. But SO WHAT!!

I think they have gotten full of themselves and don't really care.
They know us suckers have to deal with them no matter what. Well,
maybe we do. Doesn't make me feel any better.

There are a great many aspects of this line of work that put the small
business owner at a great disadvantage. Allocation is one of the big
ones. Right now everyone is trying to get my business even though it is
not very large at this time. But as soon as the market starts growing
again I am sure I will be back at the bottom of the "call" list.

I won't say your experiences are unique, but I don't think Xilinx is in
the habit of ignoring their customers either. But I do agree that the
growth of a company makes it much harder to do business with in an
efficient way. In that regard, Xilinx is no exception.

A larger company has the option of redesigning a product with an
alternate FPGA if a vendor switches to the "dark side". But the small
company with lower volumes does not have that luxury until the problem
becomes untenable. Even then schedules may preclude such a change. In
those cases, the small business is just SOL. That is why all new boards
use as few parts as possible that can not be replaced. I much prefer to
not use serial proms of any kind and like to keep the FPGAs as generic
as possible. The Xilinx parts would have had an advantage on our new
board, but they are not supporting modular configuration on the Spartan
3s and so they are the same to us as the Cyclone chips at this point.

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

 

[Tom Seim]

A larger company has the option of redesigning a product with an
alternate FPGA if a vendor switches to the "dark side". But the small
company with lower volumes does not have that luxury until the problem
becomes untenable. Even then schedules may preclude such a change. In
those cases, the small business is just SOL. That is why all new boards
use as few parts as possible that can not be replaced. I much prefer to
not use serial proms of any kind and like to keep the FPGAs as generic
as possible. The Xilinx parts would have had an advantage on our new
board, but they are not supporting modular configuration on the Spartan
3s and so they are the same to us as the Cyclone chips at this point.

Way back when we designed with basic logic parts (good old 7400
series) that we could get from multiple vendors. Now we have to use
complex parts from single sources. The last design I was working on
before closing my company was from ZF Micro, which used NSM as their
only foundary. That was ok, I was told, because NSM was an investor in
ZF Micro. Guess what? NSM pulled the rug out from under ZF, and good
by MACH-Z. If I had been struggling to stay in business that, for
sure, would have sunk me.

The plus side of FPGAs is they are high volume parts and Xilinx does
have a good track record of producing parts for a long time period.
The proms are now multiple sourced, so they aren't the problem they
used to be.

That last joust with their marketing people left me in a slow burn...