Factor PFC Into Your Power-Supply Design...

[Jan Panteltje]

Factor PFC Into Your Power-Supply Design
pdf for download, some new chips:ADP1047 and ADP1048:
https://www.electronicdesign.com/power-management/power-supply/whitepaper/21233724/electronic-design-factor-pfc-into-your-powersupply-design-pdf-download

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Sunday, October 16, 2022 at 8:53:57 PM UTC+11, Jan Panteltje wrote:

Factor PFC Into Your Power-Supply Design
pdf for download, some new chips:ADP1047 and ADP1048:
https://www.electronicdesign.com/power-management/power-supply/whitepaper/21233724/electronic-design-factor-pfc-into-your-powersupply-design-pdf-download

So Jan has only just found out about it. It\'s been a requirement for everything except the tiniest power supplies for decades now.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[server]

Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in
news:bd3622e9-a521-4321-b942-8a4a475b58adn@googlegroups.com:

On Sunday, October 16, 2022 at 8:53:57 PM UTC+11, Jan Panteltje
wrote:
Factor PFC Into Your Power-Supply Design
pdf for download, some new chips:ADP1047 and ADP1048:
https://www.electronicdesign.com/power-management/power-supply/whi
tepaper/21233724/electronic-design-factor-pfc-into-your-powersuppl
y-design-pdf-download

So Jan has only just found out about it. It\'s been a requirement
for everything except the tiniest power supplies for decades now.

We had AC driven supplies we incorporated PFC into. One was a low
voltage military PC Chassis supply that ran on AC line voltage
between 85 and 265 VAC 60Hz and autoswitched. It needed to be bale
to run at the end of a distribution drop in Japan (100VAC), which can
be as low as 85 Volts, but typically never drops below 90 V, but that
was our low line spec. OR it could run off 48VDC OR battery,
whichever was available, it would switch to. It consumed enough
power that we made it a PFC design on the AC driven driven front end.

Our HVDC supplies, however, were mostly of such low wattage and
were almost all low voltage DC powered, so no PFC was needed.

We did have a couple HVDC supplies that were big enough and were AC
driven on the front end, that we made them as corrected designs. One
ended up taking up about a third of one of those short racks that
were like 20U tall. But most of our stuff would fit into a pack of
cigarettes and were DC driven.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 16 Oct 2022 09:50:23 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Factor PFC Into Your Power-Supply Design
pdf for download, some new chips:ADP1047 and ADP1048:
https://www.electronicdesign.com/power-management/power-supply/whitepaper/21233724/electronic-design-factor-pfc-into-your-powersupply-design-pdf-download

It\'s impossible to make your own PFC power supplies at the cost of
buying them.

We buy a kilowatt Mean Well 48 volt supply for $156. It has emi
filters, a nice enclosure, an internal fan, and all sorts of
compliance stickers.

 

[boB]

On Sun, 16 Oct 2022 08:54:49 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sun, 16 Oct 2022 09:50:23 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Factor PFC Into Your Power-Supply Design
pdf for download, some new chips:ADP1047 and ADP1048:
https://www.electronicdesign.com/power-management/power-supply/whitepaper/21233724/electronic-design-factor-pfc-into-your-powersupply-design-pdf-download

It\'s impossible to make your own PFC power supplies at the cost of
buying them.

We buy a kilowatt Mean Well 48 volt supply for $156. It has emi
filters, a nice enclosure, an internal fan, and all sorts of
compliance stickers.

That is fine if your product is very expensive in the first place and
BOM price isn\'t quite as important. Highland Technology is kind of
niche though, isn\'t it ?

Depends on the output requirements too, of course.

boB

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:59:46 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:

On Sun, 16 Oct 2022 08:54:49 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

On Sun, 16 Oct 2022 09:50:23 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Factor PFC Into Your Power-Supply Design
pdf for download, some new chips:ADP1047 and ADP1048:
https://www.electronicdesign.com/power-management/power-supply/whitepaper/21233724/electronic-design-factor-pfc-into-your-powersupply-design-pdf-download

It\'s impossible to make your own PFC power supplies at the cost of
buying them.

We buy a kilowatt Mean Well 48 volt supply for $156. It has emi
filters, a nice enclosure, an internal fan, and all sorts of
compliance stickers.


That is fine if your product is very expensive in the first place and
BOM price isn\'t quite as important. Highland Technology is kind of
niche though, isn\'t it ?

I couldn\'t buy parts to make the MeanWell equivalent at twice the
price we pay for the whole thing. And their quality has been
excellent. No assembly required.

High selling price doesn\'t mean we\'re happy to throw money away.

We are niche, but that\'s no reason to design our own power supplies.
We most always buy the prime source, what connects to the AC line,
which gets us a single big DC source to work with. Then we add,
usually many, secondary regulators on our boards.

We use warts or laptop type supplies when we can. I don\'t want an AC
connector on my box if I can avoid it.

Depends on the output requirements too, of course.

We usually need a lot of supplies. I just increased my current design
from 10 to 15 distinct power pour nets.

 

[server]

John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
news:6t9okhhrlggajurb12ev2ubi5m9j5fil77@4ax.com:

On Sun, 16 Oct 2022 09:50:23 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Factor PFC Into Your Power-Supply Design
pdf for download, some new chips:ADP1047 and ADP1048:
https://www.electronicdesign.com/power-management/power-supply/whi
tepaper/21233724/electronic-design-factor-pfc-into-your-powersuppl
y-design-pdf-download

It\'s impossible to make your own PFC power supplies at the cost of
buying them.

That depends on how many are to be manufactured and sold by \"you\".

Incorporating a supply into a design is one thing and in a COTS
realm choices can be made... however...

Being a power supply maker, part of our realm was incorporating PFC
where it was needed or required. Being primarily a DC-to-DC HV
supply maker, the issue did not arise much.

We buy a kilowatt Mean Well 48 volt supply for $156. It has emi
filters, a nice enclosure, an internal fan, and all sorts of
compliance stickers.

And... infant mortality... It\'s OK... They meant well, from their
accountant\'s Point Of View.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 02:18:54 -0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
news:6t9okhhrlggajurb12ev2ubi5m9j5fil77@4ax.com:

On Sun, 16 Oct 2022 09:50:23 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Factor PFC Into Your Power-Supply Design
pdf for download, some new chips:ADP1047 and ADP1048:
https://www.electronicdesign.com/power-management/power-supply/whi
tepaper/21233724/electronic-design-factor-pfc-into-your-powersuppl
y-design-pdf-download

It\'s impossible to make your own PFC power supplies at the cost of
buying them.

That depends on how many are to be manufactured and sold by \"you\".

Incorporating a supply into a design is one thing and in a COTS
realm choices can be made... however...

Being a power supply maker, part of our realm was incorporating PFC
where it was needed or required. Being primarily a DC-to-DC HV
supply maker, the issue did not arise much.

We buy a kilowatt Mean Well 48 volt supply for $156. It has emi
filters, a nice enclosure, an internal fan, and all sorts of
compliance stickers.

And... infant mortality... It\'s OK... They meant well, from their
accountant\'s Point Of View.

I\'m in the power supply business, but I start with a MeanWell 24 or
48V dc supply and work from there.

So far, we\'ve had zero failures.

 

[server]

John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
news:c3hpkhlgkdc3ubvjup8iptbdjpojm059gh@4ax.com:

> I\'m in the power supply business,

No, TrumpChump, you are not. You USE power supplies in your products
and have had to design a few of your own to incorporate directly in
your designs, but AFAIK your company is a signal handling device
maker, not a power supply maker.

but I start with a MeanWell 24 or
48V dc supply and work from there.

Oh... you mean a supply from a PS vendor. Again, how does that
make YOU a company which is \"in the power supply business\"?

> So far, we\'ve had zero failures.

Except for that major failure residing between your ears.

You are also a pathtic snipper of text as you respout your pathetic
horeshit and ignore the entire post you responded to.

Another between the ears fail for you, Johnny.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 13:33:18 -0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
news:c3hpkhlgkdc3ubvjup8iptbdjpojm059gh@4ax.com:

I\'m in the power supply business,

No, TrumpChump, you are not. You USE power supplies in your products
and have had to design a few of your own to incorporate directly in
your designs, but AFAIK your company is a signal handling device
maker, not a power supply maker.

We make three-phase 600 va alternator simulators

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uqcd5vh3aggwxyc/P900_17.jpg?raw=1

which pretend to have the impedance behavior of a permanent-magnet
alternator, which typically drives a PWM shorting regulator. The
silver thing on one side is the kilowatt MeanWell.

And we\'re about to introduce a modular multi-channel power
supply/dummy load box.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jhihdmjwcftbmhf/P940_Front.jpg?raw=1

We\'re doing a couple of low-voltage DC supply plugins now, but have
high voltage and polyphase AC on the list.

but I start with a MeanWell 24 or
48V dc supply and work from there.

Oh... you mean a supply from a PS vendor. Again, how does that
make YOU a company which is \"in the power supply business\"?

We have an aerospace customer who builds giant test systems, Iron Bird
level stuff. They were complaining about the hassle of buying and
mounting and wiring goofy power supplies from multiple vendors, and
then trying to synchronize them though a zillion weird hardware and
software protocols. So we sensibly decided to revolutionize the power
supply industry.

Always nice chatting with you. Keep in touch.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 2:04:53 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 13:33:18 -0000 (UTC), DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
John Larkin <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in news:c3hpkhlgkdc3ubvju...@4ax.com:

<snip>

We have an aerospace customer who builds giant test systems, Iron Bird
level stuff. They were complaining about the hassle of buying and
mounting and wiring goofy power supplies from multiple vendors, and
then trying to synchronize them though a zillion weird hardware and
software protocols. So we sensibly decided to revolutionize the power
supply industry.

Lenin did describe his program for Russia as socialism and rural electrification. I hope your revolutionary plans turn out better.

\"Henceforth the rostrum at All-Russia Congresses will be mounted, not only by politicians and administrators but also by engineers and agronomists. This marks the beginning of that very happy time when politics will recede into the background, when politics will be discussed less often and at shorter length, and engineers and agronomists will do most of the talking.\"

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[server]

John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
news:gjqqkhllr94djkjsj90khdt1ggv62iimli@4ax.com:

We make three-phase 600 va alternator simulators

Wow... did Johnny make a departure from signal aquisition devices to
these behemoths?

Whatever the contractor wants, eh?

That all looks like a way bigger menagerie than the stuff you used to
make. A lot more labor goes into each one than your signal stuff.
Must be a pain for you to make. Do you have it contract manufactured
(the PCBs)?

What frequency is the output at?

We used to make a miniature 3 phase 440Hz supply for the mil gyros we
used in the early steady cam stabilizers we made for the first steady
cam inventor. Now they are all cantilever types. Back in the late
\'90s.

 

[server]

John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
news:gjqqkhllr94djkjsj90khdt1ggv62iimli@4ax.com:

And we\'re about to introduce a modular multi-channel power
supply/dummy load box.

Dang... you are doing 4U designs now. Is that a custom cabinet?

I made a rugged 4U tray design and the front panel was easily twice
that thick. Must not be populated all that heavily.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

mandag den 17. oktober 2022 kl. 22.23.58 UTC+2 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:

John Larkin <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
news:gjqqkhllr94djkjsj...@4ax.com:
And we\'re about to introduce a modular multi-channel power
supply/dummy load box.
Dang... you are doing 4U designs now. Is that a custom cabinet?

I made a rugged 4U tray design and the front panel was easily twice
that thick. Must not be populated all that heavily.

heavy stuff don\'t just hang in the front plate

 

[server]

John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
news:gjqqkhllr94djkjsj90khdt1ggv62iimli@4ax.com:

We have an aerospace customer who builds giant test systems, Iron
Bird level stuff. They were complaining about the hassle of buying
and mounting and wiring goofy power supplies from multiple
vendors, and then trying to synchronize them though a zillion
weird hardware and software protocols. So we sensibly decided to
revolutionize the power supply industry.

Revolutionize? Hahahaha...

Ours went up to 400kV in the Euro part of the company. Over here,
we only went up to about 50kV.

But our \"Iron Bird\" at one point were designs that went into space
shuttle experiments.

Our smaller stuff went into high altitude balloons for NOAA. They
were log amp driven. Those were beat up in their testing. We send
three and only one goes up on the \'bird\'.

We even had a 20 - 20k Hz 800V 2kW design that a company used to
drive a piezo stack lathe head to make optical quality surfaces right
off the lathe. The final cutter had a full 2mm transition, so on a
lathe it could cut a square peg it moved so fast. But it was used to
make giant one inch contact lens molds for race horses.

The power supply industry to fill such niche application is alway
\"revolotionary\" and usually always custom to a single customer, which
is why not many \"off the shelf HV deigns are out there. All load
situations differ at high voltages.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 20:21:26 -0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
news:gjqqkhllr94djkjsj90khdt1ggv62iimli@4ax.com:

We make three-phase 600 va alternator simulators


Wow... did Johnny make a departure from signal aquisition devices to
these behemoths?

Whatever the contractor wants, eh?

Yes. And it was fun.

That all looks like a way bigger menagerie than the stuff you used to
make. A lot more labor goes into each one than your signal stuff.
Must be a pain for you to make. Do you have it contract manufactured
(the PCBs)?

We assemble everything ourselves. We buy parts, bare boards, and sheet
metal.

What frequency is the output at?

http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/P900DS.shtml

120 Hz to 4 KHz.

A FADEC starts up using aircraft DC power but, after it manages engine
startup, it gets its power from a redundant PM alternator on the
engine itself.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c30zevqxhdhomx4/DSC04245.JPG?raw=1

The people who make it wouldn\'t send us specs, so we chuked it into a
milling machine and spun it. I suspect we know more about it now than
they do.

I\'m planning a smaller alternator simulator to plug into our modular
power system.

We used to make a miniature 3 phase 440Hz supply for the mil gyros we
used in the early steady cam stabilizers we made for the first steady
cam inventor. Now they are all cantilever types. Back in the late
\'90s.

Linear? The alternators are regulated by shorting, which our box has
to tolerate without blowing up. A PM alternator is pretty much a
current source.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 20:23:51 -0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
news:gjqqkhllr94djkjsj90khdt1ggv62iimli@4ax.com:

And we\'re about to introduce a modular multi-channel power
supply/dummy load box.

Dang... you are doing 4U designs now. Is that a custom cabinet?

Yes. We designed it in SolidWorks and it was built by Protocase, all
laser cut. They do really nice work.

I made a rugged 4U tray design and the front panel was easily twice
that thick. Must not be populated all that heavily.

Rack panels are standard and look strange if they are thicker than
their neighbors. The heavy stuff needs trays or slides of course.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 20:31:42 -0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
news:gjqqkhllr94djkjsj90khdt1ggv62iimli@4ax.com:

We have an aerospace customer who builds giant test systems, Iron
Bird level stuff. They were complaining about the hassle of buying
and mounting and wiring goofy power supplies from multiple
vendors, and then trying to synchronize them though a zillion
weird hardware and software protocols. So we sensibly decided to
revolutionize the power supply industry.


Revolutionize? Hahahaha...

Ours went up to 400kV in the Euro part of the company. Over here,
we only went up to about 50kV.

But our \"Iron Bird\" at one point were designs that went into space
shuttle experiments.

Our smaller stuff went into high altitude balloons for NOAA. They
were log amp driven. Those were beat up in their testing. We send
three and only one goes up on the \'bird\'.

We even had a 20 - 20k Hz 800V 2kW design that a company used to
drive a piezo stack lathe head to make optical quality surfaces right
off the lathe. The final cutter had a full 2mm transition, so on a
lathe it could cut a square peg it moved so fast. But it was used to
make giant one inch contact lens molds for race horses.

The power supply industry to fill such niche application is alway
\"revolotionary\" and usually always custom to a single customer, which
is why not many \"off the shelf HV deigns are out there. All load
situations differ at high voltages.

We don\'t want niche business, we want to change the world. Not much to
ask for.

The problem with the power supply biz is the lack of interface
standards. Even similar models from the same manufacturer have
different and bizarre interfaces and connectors. There are horror
stories.

Imagine persuading some motley collection of a couple dozen power
supplies to make a precisely timed sequence of DC and AC outputs, with
precise AC frequency and phase control and with timed dummy loads. It
almost can\'t be done.

We don\'t have any HV customers yet, but we may as well plan it in the
architecture. There are cases where people want a lot of channels of
HV.

 

[John Walliker]

On Monday, 17 October 2022 at 03:19:01 UTC+1, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

John Larkin <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
news:6t9okhhrlggajurb1...@4ax.com:
On Sun, 16 Oct 2022 09:50:23 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Factor PFC Into Your Power-Supply Design
pdf for download, some new chips:ADP1047 and ADP1048:
https://www.electronicdesign.com/power-management/power-supply/whi
tepaper/21233724/electronic-design-factor-pfc-into-your-powersuppl
y-design-pdf-download

It\'s impossible to make your own PFC power supplies at the cost of
buying them.
That depends on how many are to be manufactured and sold by \"you\".

Incorporating a supply into a design is one thing and in a COTS
realm choices can be made... however...

Being a power supply maker, part of our realm was incorporating PFC
where it was needed or required. Being primarily a DC-to-DC HV
supply maker, the issue did not arise much.
We buy a kilowatt Mean Well 48 volt supply for $156. It has emi
filters, a nice enclosure, an internal fan, and all sorts of
compliance stickers.
And... infant mortality... It\'s OK... They meant well, from their
accountant\'s Point Of View.

I don\'t know why you are so anti Meanwell. A product I have been involved with
which uses a Meanwell encapsulated power supply module has shipped around
1500 units over a 5 year period and there have been zero reported failures.
The Meanwells were chosen after evaluating a wide variety of different brands,
including some well known US ones. The Meanwells had the lowest conducted
emissions of any of the candidates (based on my own direct comparisons rather
than the data sheets) and there was a detailed test report available
which disclosed a lot of detail about which internal components were most
highly stressed and what temperatures they would reach at maximum rated ambient
temperature. They were also relatively cheap.

John

 

[server]

John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
news:vf9skhph0rqm0g05ehgd9f9u5nrrab1f70@4ax.com:

Rack panels are standard and look strange if they are thicker than
their neighbors. The heavy stuff needs trays or slides of course.

You have obviously never seen a rack populated with devices from
multiple vendors. The thickness of the front panel is (and should
be) dependent on what the weight of the gear is it supports. Because
ALL of the weight must be borne solely by the front panel as if there
are no other devices below it to add support. And without slides.
The device itself is the \"tray\" for everything it carries. Panel
thicknesses vary, and especially those meant for vibratory
environments such as military plane flights.

The \"standard\" is for attachment bolt location and spread, not face
plate thickness.

Your front panel is too thin for the weight of the gear you include
in your application. You cannot count on devices being below it to
support it. For a ground based application you tray might work, but
if it is meant to go aboard an aircraft I would be amazed if they do
not mention the fact that it looks flimsy.

Also IF it is going aboard a plane, you have to reconsider your
cooling considerations for the thinner air of a 70,000 ft flight
altitude, which was the standard we had to follow.

And at one time, we made a ruggedized case for a 25\" CRT meant for
rack mounting. After the Tempest level shielding it required, we had
to boost the airflow to get the same cooling level.

You are strange looking and obviously thicker skulled than your
neighbors.

Here is a 2U design I made years ago on Solid Edge (screw solid
works, Siemens product is far better) (they do PCB layout now as
well)(miles ahead of Solid Twerks)

https://www.mediafire.com/file/3utpm7kmg4ofd6k/2U_Rugged_Rack_Tray.pd
f/file

It is a 3D PDf so you may need actual Adobe products to view it.