A
a a
Guest
Exploring China\'s largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization
https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
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Exploring China\'s largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization...
A
a a
Guest
>
Yet one more #veryStupidByLowIQaa post.
Yet one more #veryStupidByLowIQaa post.
J
John Larkin
Guest
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <manta103g@gmail.com>
wrote:
Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
economically?
wrote:
Exploring China\'s largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization
https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
economically?
A
Anthony William Sloman
Guest
On Wednesday, September 13, 2023 at 10:14:09â¯AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
Not since China started making high efficiency solar cells in ten time the volume (and at half the price) that anybody else had.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <mant...@gmail.com
wrote:
Exploring China\'s largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization
https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
economically?
Not since China started making high efficiency solar cells in ten time the volume (and at half the price) that anybody else had.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
B
boB
Guest
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 17:13:51 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
Naaahhhh. They tried. A couple of times.
Photovoltatics work more consistently when there is sun.
boB
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <manta103g@gmail.com
wrote:
Exploring China\'s largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization
https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
economically?
Naaahhhh. They tried. A couple of times.
Photovoltatics work more consistently when there is sun.
boB
J
Jan Panteltje
Guest
On a sunny day (Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:33:21 -0700) it happened boB
<boB@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kre2gih6ifl0m99oklil9gnrrf4pr8nihi@4ax.com>:
IIRC one issue is storage
Th heat can be used to store energy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
quote:
\" Early designs used these focused rays to heat water and used the resulting steam to power a turbine.
Newer designs using liquid sodium have been demonstrated, and systems using molten salts (40% potassium nitrate,
60% sodium nitrate) as the working fluids are now in operation.
These working fluids have high heat capacity, which can be used to store the energy before using it to boil water to drive turbines.
Storing the heat energy for later recovery allows power to be generated continuously,
while the sun is shining, and for several hours after the sun has set (or been clouded over).
\"
<boB@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kre2gih6ifl0m99oklil9gnrrf4pr8nihi@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 17:13:51 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <manta103g@gmail.com
wrote:
Exploring China\'s largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization
https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
economically?
Naaahhhh. They tried. A couple of times.
Photovoltatics work more consistently when there is sun.
IIRC one issue is storage
Th heat can be used to store energy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
quote:
\" Early designs used these focused rays to heat water and used the resulting steam to power a turbine.
Newer designs using liquid sodium have been demonstrated, and systems using molten salts (40% potassium nitrate,
60% sodium nitrate) as the working fluids are now in operation.
These working fluids have high heat capacity, which can be used to store the energy before using it to boil water to drive turbines.
Storing the heat energy for later recovery allows power to be generated continuously,
while the sun is shining, and for several hours after the sun has set (or been clouded over).
\"
B
boB
Guest
qqOn Wed, 13 Sep 2023 05:04:20 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
Well, there is that, yes. That assumes also that the sun is
shining, too, which it mostly does there.
I tried to find how much storage they had but found this in the
Wikipedia article..
\"(NREL) estimated the cost of electricity from concentrated solar with
10 hours of storage at $0.076 per kWh in 2021\"
Either way, it failed so far. They\'re working on it sounds like...
Looks like it is also going to be a while before the price per kW-Hour
matches up with current utilities. They gotta try to make it better
at least. That\'s good.
boB
<alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:33:21 -0700) it happened boB
boB@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kre2gih6ifl0m99oklil9gnrrf4pr8nihi@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 17:13:51 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <manta103g@gmail.com
wrote:
Exploring China\'s largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization
https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
economically?
Naaahhhh. They tried. A couple of times.
Photovoltatics work more consistently when there is sun.
IIRC one issue is storage
Th heat can be used to store energy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
quote:
\" Early designs used these focused rays to heat water and used the resulting steam to power a turbine.
Newer designs using liquid sodium have been demonstrated, and systems using molten salts (40% potassium nitrate,
60% sodium nitrate) as the working fluids are now in operation.
These working fluids have high heat capacity, which can be used to store the energy before using it to boil water to drive turbines.
Storing the heat energy for later recovery allows power to be generated continuously,
while the sun is shining, and for several hours after the sun has set (or been clouded over).
\"
Well, there is that, yes. That assumes also that the sun is
shining, too, which it mostly does there.
I tried to find how much storage they had but found this in the
Wikipedia article..
\"(NREL) estimated the cost of electricity from concentrated solar with
10 hours of storage at $0.076 per kWh in 2021\"
Either way, it failed so far. They\'re working on it sounds like...
Looks like it is also going to be a while before the price per kW-Hour
matches up with current utilities. They gotta try to make it better
at least. That\'s good.
boB
J
Jan Panteltje
Guest
On a sunny day (Wed, 13 Sep 2023 18:37:58 -0700) it happened boB
<boB@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kvo4gitc6j4o2424aok15frqg9egi9vppa@4ax.com>:
Yes, there is this in Chile:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerro_Dominador_Solar_Thermal_Plant
funny, just yesterday there was a documentary about it on German TV.
Operational since 2021, 100 MW with an other 100 MW in the making.
Annual net output
950 GW·h (secured sale)
Storage capacity
1,925 MW·he
Lost of sun there!
<boB@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kvo4gitc6j4o2424aok15frqg9egi9vppa@4ax.com>:
qqOn Wed, 13 Sep 2023 05:04:20 GMT, Jan Panteltje
alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:33:21 -0700) it happened boB
boB@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kre2gih6ifl0m99oklil9gnrrf4pr8nihi@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 17:13:51 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <manta103g@gmail.com
wrote:
Exploring China\'s largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization
https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
economically?
Naaahhhh. They tried. A couple of times.
Photovoltatics work more consistently when there is sun.
IIRC one issue is storage
Th heat can be used to store energy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
quote:
\" Early designs used these focused rays to heat water and used the resulting steam to power a turbine.
Newer designs using liquid sodium have been demonstrated, and systems using molten salts (40% potassium nitrate,
60% sodium nitrate) as the working fluids are now in operation.
These working fluids have high heat capacity, which can be used to store the energy before using it to boil water to drive
turbines.
Storing the heat energy for later recovery allows power to be generated continuously,
while the sun is shining, and for several hours after the sun has set (or been clouded over).
\"
Well, there is that, yes. That assumes also that the sun is
shining, too, which it mostly does there.
I tried to find how much storage they had but found this in the
Wikipedia article..
\"(NREL) estimated the cost of electricity from concentrated solar with
10 hours of storage at $0.076 per kWh in 2021\"
Either way, it failed so far. They\'re working on it sounds like...
Looks like it is also going to be a while before the price per kW-Hour
matches up with current utilities. They gotta try to make it better
at least. That\'s good.
boB
Yes, there is this in Chile:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerro_Dominador_Solar_Thermal_Plant
funny, just yesterday there was a documentary about it on German TV.
Operational since 2021, 100 MW with an other 100 MW in the making.
Annual net output
950 GW·h (secured sale)
Storage capacity
1,925 MW·he
Lost of sun there!
A
a a
Guest
On Thursday, 14 September 2023 at 06:32:18 UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote:
thank you for the link
but photothermal looks to be an ancient technology, alike concentrated photovoltaics, totally abolished today
and efficiency per area is very, very low and solar tracking mechanism is prone to failure in the dessert
On a sunny day (Wed, 13 Sep 2023 18:37:58 -0700) it happened boB
b...@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kvo4gitc6j4o2424a...@4ax.com>:
qqOn Wed, 13 Sep 2023 05:04:20 GMT, Jan Panteltje
al...@comet.invalid> wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:33:21 -0700) it happened boB
b...@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kre2gih6ifl0m99ok...@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 17:13:51 -0700, John Larkin
jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <mant...@gmail.com
wrote:
Exploring China\'s largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #ChinaModernization
https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
economically?
Naaahhhh. They tried. A couple of times.
Photovoltatics work more consistently when there is sun.
IIRC one issue is storage
Th heat can be used to store energy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
quote:
\" Early designs used these focused rays to heat water and used the resulting steam to power a turbine.
Newer designs using liquid sodium have been demonstrated, and systems using molten salts (40% potassium nitrate,
60% sodium nitrate) as the working fluids are now in operation.
These working fluids have high heat capacity, which can be used to store the energy before using it to boil water to drive
turbines.
Storing the heat energy for later recovery allows power to be generated continuously,
while the sun is shining, and for several hours after the sun has set (or been clouded over).
\"
Well, there is that, yes. That assumes also that the sun is
shining, too, which it mostly does there.
I tried to find how much storage they had but found this in the
Wikipedia article..
\"(NREL) estimated the cost of electricity from concentrated solar with
10 hours of storage at $0.076 per kWh in 2021\"
Either way, it failed so far. They\'re working on it sounds like...
Looks like it is also going to be a while before the price per kW-Hour
matches up with current utilities. They gotta try to make it better
at least. That\'s good.
boB
Yes, there is this in Chile:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerro_Dominador_Solar_Thermal_Plant
funny, just yesterday there was a documentary about it on German TV.
Operational since 2021, 100 MW with an other 100 MW in the making.
Annual net output
950 GW·h (secured sale)
Storage capacity
1,925 MW·he
Lost of sun there!
thank you for the link
but photothermal looks to be an ancient technology, alike concentrated photovoltaics, totally abolished today
and efficiency per area is very, very low and solar tracking mechanism is prone to failure in the dessert
A
a a
Guest
>
Darius the Dumb has posted yet one more #veryStupidByLowIQaa article.
Darius the Dumb has posted yet one more #veryStupidByLowIQaa article.
J
Jan Panteltje
Guest
On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:25:05 -0700 (PDT)) it happened a a
<manta103g@gmail.com> wrote in
<505d7763-ee04-4f23-9495-75d8da148been@googlegroups.com>:
I dunno, places with a lot of sun and for example solar cells
need large batteries to cover the nights or cloudy periods.
This thing uses molten salt that is kept in a thermally insulated container
and can work past cloudy periods and nights.
The molten salt is a better method than batteries if I understand it right.
Batteries have very limited charge-discharge cycles and are expensive.
The salt comes from a local mine.
You did say you are working with Peltier elements?
I have several of those (from ebay), been playing with some, also for cooling.
But as somebody else pointed out, heat from the inner of the earth can power a lot too,
24/7 at that.
<manta103g@gmail.com> wrote in
<505d7763-ee04-4f23-9495-75d8da148been@googlegroups.com>:
On Thursday, 14 September 2023 at 06:32:18 UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 13 Sep 2023 18:37:58 -0700) it happened boB
b...@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kvo4gitc6j4o2424a...@4ax.com>:
qqOn Wed, 13 Sep 2023 05:04:20 GMT, Jan Panteltje
al...@comet.invalid> wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:33:21 -0700) it happened boB
b...@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kre2gih6ifl0m99ok...@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 17:13:51 -0700, John Larkin
jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <mant...@gmail.com
wrote:
Exploring China\'s largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #Chin=
aModernization
https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
economically?
Naaahhhh. They tried. A couple of times.
Photovoltatics work more consistently when there is sun.
IIRC one issue is storage
Th heat can be used to store energy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
quote:
\" Early designs used these focused rays to heat water and used the res=
ulting steam to power a turbine.
Newer designs using liquid sodium have been demonstrated, and systems =
using molten salts (40% potassium nitrate,
60% sodium nitrate) as the working fluids are now in operation.
These working fluids have high heat capacity, which can be used to sto=
re the energy before using it to boil water to drive
turbines.
Storing the heat energy for later recovery allows power to be generate=
d continuously,
while the sun is shining, and for several hours after the sun has set =
(or been clouded over).
\"
Well, there is that, yes. That assumes also that the sun is
shining, too, which it mostly does there.
I tried to find how much storage they had but found this in the
Wikipedia article..
\"(NREL) estimated the cost of electricity from concentrated solar with=
10 hours of storage at $0.076 per kWh in 2021\"
Either way, it failed so far. They\'re working on it sounds like...
Looks like it is also going to be a while before the price per kW-Hour=
matches up with current utilities. They gotta try to make it better
at least. That\'s good.
boB
Yes, there is this in Chile:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerro_Dominador_Solar_Thermal_Plant
funny, just yesterday there was a documentary about it on German TV.
Operational since 2021, 100 MW with an other 100 MW in the making.
Annual net output
950 GW·h (secured sale)
Storage capacity
1,925 MW·he
Lost of sun there!
thank you for the link
but photothermal looks to be an ancient technology, alike concentrated phot=
ovoltaics, totally abolished today
and efficiency per area is very, very low and solar tracking mechanism is p=
rone to failure in the dessert
I dunno, places with a lot of sun and for example solar cells
need large batteries to cover the nights or cloudy periods.
This thing uses molten salt that is kept in a thermally insulated container
and can work past cloudy periods and nights.
The molten salt is a better method than batteries if I understand it right.
Batteries have very limited charge-discharge cycles and are expensive.
The salt comes from a local mine.
You did say you are working with Peltier elements?
I have several of those (from ebay), been playing with some, also for cooling.
But as somebody else pointed out, heat from the inner of the earth can power a lot too,
24/7 at that.
A
a a
Guest
On Thursday, 14 September 2023 at 17:02:46 UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote:
I once ordered high-temperature Peltier modules for my friend to generate electric energy in off-grid shelter, mounted to furnace\'s exhaust pipe by one side and cooled by a fan from other side.
So photothermal is not hot for me.
At the same time Ocean thermal energy conversion (OTEC)
can be done at water reservoir and you get large delta T than in case of pumping ocean water from the deapth.
\\
Ok, hot, black side exposed do direct sun can be as hot as to boil water,
so we take water as a working fluid as depicted by
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/hydropower/ocean-thermal-energy-conversion.php
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/hydropower/images/oceanthermal.png
Unfortunately, high pressure systems, pipes are never safe in operation
so concentrated solar trough technology has never matured
On a sunny day (Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:25:05 -0700 (PDT)) it happened a a
mant...@gmail.com> wrote in
505d7763-ee04-4f23...@googlegroups.com>:
On Thursday, 14 September 2023 at 06:32:18 UTC+2, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 13 Sep 2023 18:37:58 -0700) it happened boB
b...@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kvo4gitc6j4o2424a...@4ax.com>:
qqOn Wed, 13 Sep 2023 05:04:20 GMT, Jan Panteltje
al...@comet.invalid> wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:33:21 -0700) it happened boB
b...@K7IQ.com> wrote in <kre2gih6ifl0m99ok...@4ax.com>:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 17:13:51 -0700, John Larkin
jjla...@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT), a a <mant...@gmail.com
wrote:
Exploring China\'s largest photothermal power plant in Dunhuang #Chin> >aModernization
https://twitter.com/i/status/1701505928435016180
Have any of those reflector tower things ever really worked
economically?
Naaahhhh. They tried. A couple of times.
Photovoltatics work more consistently when there is sun.
IIRC one issue is storage
Th heat can be used to store energy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
quote:
\" Early designs used these focused rays to heat water and used the res> >ulting steam to power a turbine.
Newer designs using liquid sodium have been demonstrated, and systems > >using molten salts (40% potassium nitrate,
60% sodium nitrate) as the working fluids are now in operation.
These working fluids have high heat capacity, which can be used to sto> >re the energy before using it to boil water to drive
turbines.
Storing the heat energy for later recovery allows power to be generate=
d continuously,
while the sun is shining, and for several hours after the sun has set > >(or been clouded over).
\"
Well, there is that, yes. That assumes also that the sun is
shining, too, which it mostly does there.
I tried to find how much storage they had but found this in the
Wikipedia article..
\"(NREL) estimated the cost of electricity from concentrated solar with
10 hours of storage at $0.076 per kWh in 2021\"
Either way, it failed so far. They\'re working on it sounds like...
Looks like it is also going to be a while before the price per kW-Hour
matches up with current utilities. They gotta try to make it better
at least. That\'s good.
boB
Yes, there is this in Chile:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerro_Dominador_Solar_Thermal_Plant
funny, just yesterday there was a documentary about it on German TV.
Operational since 2021, 100 MW with an other 100 MW in the making.
Annual net output
950 GW·h (secured sale)
Storage capacity
1,925 MW·he
Lost of sun there!
thank you for the link
but photothermal looks to be an ancient technology, alike concentrated phot=
ovoltaics, totally abolished today
and efficiency per area is very, very low and solar tracking mechanism is p> >rone to failure in the dessert
I dunno, places with a lot of sun and for example solar cells
need large batteries to cover the nights or cloudy periods.
This thing uses molten salt that is kept in a thermally insulated container
and can work past cloudy periods and nights.
The molten salt is a better method than batteries if I understand it right.
Batteries have very limited charge-discharge cycles and are expensive.
The salt comes from a local mine.
You did say you are working with Peltier elements?
I have several of those (from ebay), been playing with some, also for cooling.
But as somebody else pointed out, heat from the inner of the earth can power a lot too,
24/7 at that.
I once ordered high-temperature Peltier modules for my friend to generate electric energy in off-grid shelter, mounted to furnace\'s exhaust pipe by one side and cooled by a fan from other side.
So photothermal is not hot for me.
At the same time Ocean thermal energy conversion (OTEC)
can be done at water reservoir and you get large delta T than in case of pumping ocean water from the deapth.
\\
Ok, hot, black side exposed do direct sun can be as hot as to boil water,
so we take water as a working fluid as depicted by
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/hydropower/ocean-thermal-energy-conversion.php
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/hydropower/images/oceanthermal.png
Unfortunately, high pressure systems, pipes are never safe in operation
so concentrated solar trough technology has never matured
A
a a
Guest
>
Darius the Dumb has posted yet one more #veryStupidByLowIQaa article.
Darius the Dumb has posted yet one more #veryStupidByLowIQaa article.