EVER411 15V battery from WES

R

Ross Herbert

Guest
I have been restoring an old APO Multimeter No.3 by giving it a good going over
inside and out. It's a nice looking analogue MM which is built like a brick
outhouse and it has been well looked after since it was obtained from the PMG's
Stores branch in 1971 at a charge out cost of $68.50. They certainly weren't
expensive at that price - considering they had a 10A ac range using a current
transformer and were made in Australia by Master Instruments. The leather case
was like new into the bargain.

As some of you may be aware, this meter - like the AVO 8 etc, uses a 15V battery
which is no longer manufactured by the usual battery manufacturers. I found that
WES Components sell a lookalike which is supposedly an alkaline equivalent of
the old carbon-zinc pile made by Eveready as the 411 battery. These are labelled
as Made in Singapore and are fitted in a red plastic case the same dimensions as
the original Eveready - but they are about half the weight of the original. I
think they are distributed in Aust by Master Instruments. They cost about $27 ea
in Perth so they are not cheap to say the least. I ordered 2 and received them
today.

Upon connecting my digital meter to the first battery (with no load) it measured
15V initially and rapidly dropped to a steady 13.5V within 10 seconds. Exactly
the same result with the second battery. I didn't even bother to connect a 15K
load and do a nominal 1mA measurement because the result could not be any better
than with no load. I had already determined that the APO M/M No.3 requires the
battery to measure a minimum of 13V in order to be able to zero the meter on the
Ohms x1000 range with leads shorted, so these EVER411's were no good at all.

I took both batteries back to the supplier in Perth (Westec Electronics - the
rep for WES Components)and demonstrated the problem to the counter jockey using
two different meters. He agreed the voltage measurements did not match the
advertised specs and refunded my money.

The point of this story is to advise anyone who may be considering buying this
battery from WES (or any other supplier), think twice, and then don't do it.

Since I still needed a replacement battery I called in at Malz and bought a
miniature MN27 12V battery and a 2032 3V Lithium cell for a total of $5.20 and I
am currently shoe-horning them into the casing from the original dead Eveready
411.
 
On Wednesday, 8 August 2012 20:50:33 UTC+10, Ross Herbert wrote:
I have been restoring an old APO Multimeter No.3 by giving it a good going over

inside and out. It's a nice looking analogue MM which is built like a brick

outhouse and it has been well looked after since it was obtained from the PMG's

Stores branch in 1971 at a charge out cost of $68.50. They certainly weren't

expensive at that price - considering they had a 10A ac range using a current

transformer and were made in Australia by Master Instruments. The leather case

was like new into the bargain.



As some of you may be aware, this meter - like the AVO 8 etc, uses a 15V battery

which is no longer manufactured by the usual battery manufacturers. I found that

WES Components sell a lookalike which is supposedly an alkaline equivalent of

the old carbon-zinc pile made by Eveready as the 411 battery. These are labelled

as Made in Singapore and are fitted in a red plastic case the same dimensions as

the original Eveready - but they are about half the weight of the original. I

think they are distributed in Aust by Master Instruments. They cost about $27 ea

in Perth so they are not cheap to say the least. I ordered 2 and received them

today.



Upon connecting my digital meter to the first battery (with no load) it measured

15V initially and rapidly dropped to a steady 13.5V within 10 seconds. Exactly

the same result with the second battery. I didn't even bother to connect a 15K

load and do a nominal 1mA measurement because the result could not be any better

than with no load. I had already determined that the APO M/M No.3 requires the

battery to measure a minimum of 13V in order to be able to zero the meter on the

Ohms x1000 range with leads shorted, so these EVER411's were no good at all.



I took both batteries back to the supplier in Perth (Westec Electronics - the

rep for WES Components)and demonstrated the problem to the counter jockey using

two different meters. He agreed the voltage measurements did not match the

advertised specs and refunded my money.



The point of this story is to advise anyone who may be considering buying this

battery from WES (or any other supplier), think twice, and then don't do it.



Since I still needed a replacement battery I called in at Malz and bought a

miniature MN27 12V battery and a 2032 3V Lithium cell for a total of $5.20 and I

am currently shoe-horning them into the casing from the original dead Eveready

411.
Click to expand...
Did you try Master Instruments they still sell a battery with that model number http://www.master-instruments.com.au/products/54542/411.html If you have trouble buying from them directly I think battery world is there more retail arm.
 
On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 06:10:00 -0700 (PDT), ishap_11@hotmail.com wrote:

SNIP
:
:Did you try Master Instruments they still sell a battery with that model number
http://www.master-instruments.com.au/products/54542/411.html If you have trouble
buying from them directly I think battery world is there more retail arm.


Thanks. I know Batteries Plus is the MI distributor in Perth but they tend to
charge more than WES for the same item.

If you go to the WES website and have a look at page 518 of their on-line
catalogue you will see the 411 battery. Compare the picture with the MI page for
their product http://www.master-instruments.com.au/products/54542/411.html

Do they look similar?

On the MI page the link to the data sheet shows documentation for original
carbon zinc Eveready 411, even though the red plastic case item marked Unicell
UG411 made in singapore, is listed under Alkaline Batteries. I visited the
Unicell website
http://www.unicell.com.sg/mainsite/index.php?page=batteries&size=12 but was
unable to locate the UG-411 anywhere. Am awaiting a reply from them as to its
availability.
 
"Ross Herbert"

( snip sad story)

Since I still needed a replacement battery I called in at Malz and bought
a
miniature MN27 12V battery and a 2032 3V Lithium cell ...
Click to expand...

** Two recipes:

1. Take two 9V Energizers and a 3.9 volt zener - use shrink plastic to
make one unit.

2. Take the 6 individual cells from two 9V Energizers ( smaller versions of
the AAA size ) and use 11 of them ( a row of 5 and a row of 6) to make a
new battery. Cover in shrink as above.

My idea involves wire leads soldered to the original battery terminals.

It should be years before you need to repeat the exercise.



..... Phil
 
On Thu, 9 Aug 2012 12:51:51 +1000, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote:

:
:"Ross Herbert"
:
:( snip sad story)
:
:> Since I still needed a replacement battery I called in at Malz and bought
:> a
:> miniature MN27 12V battery and a 2032 3V Lithium cell ...
:
:
:** Two recipes:
:
:1. Take two 9V Energizers and a 3.9 volt zener - use shrink plastic to
:make one unit.
:
:2. Take the 6 individual cells from two 9V Energizers ( smaller versions of
:the AAA size ) and use 11 of them ( a row of 5 and a row of 6) to make a
:new battery. Cover in shrink as above.
:
:My idea involves wire leads soldered to the original battery terminals.
:
:It should be years before you need to repeat the exercise.
:
:
:
:.... Phil
:

Thanks Phil.

I had thought of using the 2 x 9V battery and zener trick but there just isn't
space in the meter for 2 of them. I hadn't thought of stripping 9V batteries
down and using the individual cells to make a 15V though. Good idea and will
give it try.
 
"Ross Herbert" <rherber1@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:ile428drsh0mkq1ukg7v78kkibk916n42j@4ax.com...
I have been restoring an old APO Multimeter No.3 by giving it a good going over
inside and out. It's a nice looking analogue MM which is built like a brick
outhouse and it has been well looked after since it was obtained from the PMG's
Stores branch in 1971 at a charge out cost of $68.50. They certainly weren't
expensive at that price - considering they had a 10A ac range using a current
transformer and were made in Australia by Master Instruments. The leather case
was like new into the bargain.

As some of you may be aware, this meter - like the AVO 8 etc, uses a 15V battery
which is no longer manufactured by the usual battery manufacturers. I found that
WES Components sell a lookalike which is supposedly an alkaline equivalent of
the old carbon-zinc pile made by Eveready as the 411 battery. These are labelled
as Made in Singapore and are fitted in a red plastic case the same dimensions as
the original Eveready - but they are about half the weight of the original. I
think they are distributed in Aust by Master Instruments. They cost about $27 ea
in Perth so they are not cheap to say the least. I ordered 2 and received them
today.

Upon connecting my digital meter to the first battery (with no load) it measured
15V initially and rapidly dropped to a steady 13.5V within 10 seconds. Exactly
the same result with the second battery. I didn't even bother to connect a 15K
load and do a nominal 1mA measurement because the result could not be any better
than with no load. I had already determined that the APO M/M No.3 requires the
battery to measure a minimum of 13V in order to be able to zero the meter on the
Ohms x1000 range with leads shorted, so these EVER411's were no good at all.

I took both batteries back to the supplier in Perth (Westec Electronics - the
rep for WES Components)and demonstrated the problem to the counter jockey using
two different meters. He agreed the voltage measurements did not match the
advertised specs and refunded my money.

The point of this story is to advise anyone who may be considering buying this
battery from WES (or any other supplier), think twice, and then don't do it.

Since I still needed a replacement battery I called in at Malz and bought a
miniature MN27 12V battery and a 2032 3V Lithium cell for a total of $5.20 and I
am currently shoe-horning them into the casing from the original dead Eveready
411.
Click to expand...
There was an item on this in Silicon Chip last year (Nov. page 60)
Here is the text:
************************************************************************
Battery replacement for an AVO Mk.8 multimeter
The revered British AVO multimeter employed a 15V battery which
is now expensive and hard to obtain.
I happened to be in one of the many $2.00 shops in NZ and spied
a pack of five CR2032 cells for the princely cost of $2.00.
Ensuring that they had a long expiry date, I purchased a couple of packs.
Five such cells gave 15V (16.7V actually),exactly what is required
for the AVO. They were fitted into a 15mm length of 12mm (inside measurement)
PVC conduit. You need to reshape the battery contacts as shown in the photo.
It is then an easy 'task to fit the batteries, making sure you get the
polarity correct. Finally, pack a little foam plastic, as per the photo,
around the battery area.
Editor's note: using stacked lithium cells to provide 15V is a good idea when
low current (<190uA) is required. The cells have a nominal 240mAh capacity
down to 2V. CR2025 cells could also be used but are of a smaller capacity.
J. Barry Grumwald,
Kaitaia, NZ. ($20)
 
I just found some more info on this...
http://www.richardsradios.co.uk/avo8.html

"Yaputya" <yaputya.leftlegin@gmail.com> wrote in message news:a8heepFfquU1@mid.individual.net...
"Ross Herbert" <rherber1@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:ile428drsh0mkq1ukg7v78kkibk916n42j@4ax.com...
I have been restoring an old APO Multimeter No.3 by giving it a good going over
snip
Click to expand...
 
On Thu, 9 Aug 2012 11:46:08 +0200, "Yaputya" <yaputya.leftlegin@gmail.com>
wrote:

:I just found some more info on this...
:http://www.richardsradios.co.uk/avo8.html
:
:"Yaputya" <yaputya.leftlegin@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a8heepFfquU1@mid.individual.net...
:>
:> "Ross Herbert" <rherber1@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:ile428drsh0mkq1ukg7v78kkibk916n42j@4ax.com...
:>>I have been restoring an old APO Multimeter No.3 by giving it a good going
over
:<snip>
:

Thanks for those articles. Most helpful.

Ross
 
"Yaputya"
There was an item on this in Silicon Chip last year (Nov. page 60)
Here is the text:
************************************************************************
Battery replacement for an AVO Mk.8 multimeter
The revered British AVO multimeter employed a 15V battery which
is now expensive and hard to obtain.
I happened to be in one of the many $2.00 shops in NZ and spied
a pack of five CR2032 cells for the princely cost of $2.00.
Click to expand...

** IME ( and that is not inconsiderable ) the idea of 5 x Lithium button
cells in series, connected only by pressure, gives me the *willies* - and
I expect Mr Murphy would have a fit.

That such an arrangement would ever exhibit the needed long term reliability
is *optimistic* in the extreme.

If Ross H goes for my #2 recipe ( using 11 cells taken from 9V Energizers )
then he ought to carefully SOLDER leads from each PLUS to the MINUS of the
next cell in the chain.

Along with soldered leads to the terminals inside his meter, that out to
bring a smile to the jaded face of Mr Murphy.

BTW:

" How Mr Murphy died:

One dark evening (in the U.S.), Mr Murphy's car ran out of gas. As he
hitchhiked to a gas station, while facing traffic and wearing white, he was
struck from behind by a British tourist who was driving on the wrong side of
the road. "



.... Phil
 
"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message news:a8hmguFbs5U1@mid.individual.net...
"Yaputya"


There was an item on this in Silicon Chip last year (Nov. page 60)
Here is the text:
************************************************************************
Battery replacement for an AVO Mk.8 multimeter
The revered British AVO multimeter employed a 15V battery which
is now expensive and hard to obtain.
I happened to be in one of the many $2.00 shops in NZ and spied
a pack of five CR2032 cells for the princely cost of $2.00.


** IME ( and that is not inconsiderable ) the idea of 5 x Lithium button cells in series, connected only by pressure, gives me
the *willies* - and I expect Mr Murphy would have a fit.
Click to expand...
I don't see why it would be such a problem - it isn't really any different from a
big torch with several C or D cells in series, passing a lot more current and only
connected by the pressure of a spring in the base. Many LED torches and laser
pointers also use several button cells in series in the same way, relying only on
spring pressure. Have you experienced a particular problem with Lithium cells?

That such an arrangement would ever exhibit the needed long term reliability is *optimistic* in the extreme.
Click to expand...
In the Barry Grumwald article (SC Nov 2011 page 60) the cells are held in place
co-axially by PVC conduit, in the laser pointers etc. that I have seen the multiple
button cells are also held in place by a similar plastic tube.
Although I haven't built the exact battery as described in the SC
article by Barry Grumwald (no need - I don't own an AVO!) I don't see why
it would exhibit any more long-term problems than a common 3 or 4 cell torch.
In Barry's design the pressure from the compressed foam pushing on the
reshaped battery contacts should be enough to make reliable electrical contact,
especially as the current involved is less than 190 microamps

If Ross H goes for my #2 recipe ( using 11 cells taken from 9V Energizers ) then he ought to carefully SOLDER leads from each
PLUS to the MINUS of the next cell in the chain.

Along with soldered leads to the terminals inside his meter, that out to bring a smile to the jaded face of Mr Murphy.
Click to expand...
Of course soldered connections are going to be more reliable but I think
you would agree that your solution involving dissecting the 9V batteries
and soldering the individual cells is messy and could even damage the cells.
The Barry Grumwald idea makes it much easier to replace the cells
when they go flat - no need for more messy soldering.
 
"Yaputya"
** IME ( and that is not inconsiderable ) the idea of 5 x Lithium
button cells in series, connected only by pressure, gives me the
*willies* - and I expect Mr Murphy would have a fit.

I don't see why it would be such a problem .....
Click to expand...

** But you are an ass.

Fuck off.
 
On Thu, 9 Aug 2012 12:51:51 +1000, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote:
:
:** Two recipes:
:
:1. Take two 9V Energizers and a 3.9 volt zener - use shrink plastic to
:make one unit.
:
:2. Take the 6 individual cells from two 9V Energizers ( smaller versions of
:the AAA size ) and use 11 of them ( a row of 5 and a row of 6) to make a
:new battery. Cover in shrink as above.
:
:My idea involves wire leads soldered to the original battery terminals.
:
:It should be years before you need to repeat the exercise.
:
:
:
:.... Phil
:

I finished by going for a variation of recipe 1.

I used 2 of GP Batteries 12V 23AE http://www.gpbatteries.com/pic/GP23AE.pdf
($2.50 ea) in series with a 9.1V zener. Used the zener to link between the +ve
and -ve end of the two batteries and soldered the terminal plates from the
original Eveready 411 via short leads to the respective ends of the combination.

I used the red and black end plates along with 2 of the cardboard insulators
from the original and epoxied them to the ends of the battery before
heatshrinking overall. It is only about 1mm longer than the original but that is
no problem at all. Solid as a rock and works well.

I now have to repeat the exercise for the AVO 8.

Thanks for the
 
"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message news:a8jiktFvaeU1@mid.individual.net...
"Yaputya"

** IME ( and that is not inconsiderable ) the idea of 5 x Lithium button cells in series, connected only by pressure, gives
me the *willies* - and I expect Mr Murphy would have a fit.

I don't see why it would be such a problem .....


** But you are an ass.

Fuck off.
Click to expand...
Phil hasn't taken his pills today.
 
"Yaputya" <yaputya.leftlegin@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a8l6sqF4udU1@mid.individual.net...
"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:a8jiktFvaeU1@mid.individual.net...

"Yaputya"

** IME ( and that is not inconsiderable ) the idea of 5 x Lithium
button cells in series, connected only by pressure, gives me the
*willies* - and I expect Mr Murphy would have a fit.

I don't see why it would be such a problem .....


** But you are an ass.

Fuck off.

Phil hasn't taken his pills today.
Click to expand...
He's a bit grumpy - someone put superglue on his dildo.
 
"Ross Herbert" <rherber1@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:ile428drsh0mkq1ukg7v78kkibk916n42j@4ax.com...
I have been restoring an old APO Multimeter No.3 by giving it a good going
over
inside and out. It's a nice looking analogue MM which is built like a
brick
outhouse and it has been well looked after since it was obtained from the
PMG's
Stores branch in 1971 at a charge out cost of $68.50. They certainly
weren't
expensive at that price - considering they had a 10A ac range using a
current
transformer and were made in Australia by Master Instruments. The leather
case
was like new into the bargain.

As some of you may be aware, this meter - like the AVO 8 etc, uses a 15V
battery
which is no longer manufactured by the usual battery manufacturers.
Click to expand...
It looks as if someone else has already posted where to get the battery, but
if that doesn't work out for you my plan-B might help.

I built a blocking oscillator on a small toroid (such as you can lift from a
scrap MOBO) 15 T collector winding, 12 T base winding + 15 Ohm current limit
resistor, my meter needed a 30V battery so I gave it 30 T secondary, if
yours needs 15V then use 15 T, finish off with rectifier, smoothing & an
appropriate zener.

It does mean drilling a hole for the push-button to operate the blocking
oscillator and a lead through to the 1.5V D-cell compartment. I still have
mine after all these years (A 100k/V Taylor) but its only been used on very
rare occasions since I started adding DMMs to my toolkit.
 
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:i_SVr.28178$aR.13398@fx06.am4...
"Yaputya" <yaputya.leftlegin@gmail.com> wrote in message news:a8l6sqF4udU1@mid.individual.net...

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message news:a8jiktFvaeU1@mid.individual.net...

"Yaputya"

** IME ( and that is not inconsiderable ) the idea of 5 x Lithium button cells in series, connected only by pressure, gives
me the *willies* - and I expect Mr Murphy would have a fit.

I don't see why it would be such a problem .....


** But you are an ass.

Fuck off.

Phil hasn't taken his pills today.

He's a bit grumpy - someone put superglue on his dildo.
Click to expand...

Others have been pissed off with Phil, his abuse knows no bounds.....
The following is the result of a simple search.....

The Phil Allison Song

Posted in aus.hi-fi and sung to the tune

"I still call Australia home"

I've been to Hospitals that didn't close down,

From Melbourne to Sydney and Old Hobart Town,

But no matter how far or how wide I roam,

I still call my Psyche Ward home.



In there my room is so cosy and clean,

And when there's a full moon my hair grows for free,

And no matter how much I type alone,

I still call my Psyche Ward home.



Out there the world can be so cold ,

With Nazis in brown boots, and autistic monkeys everywhere,

But when you get medication and special care,

It's good to know where your Journey ends.

One day we'll all be together I'll see,

when all hi fi's turn into Quads just for me,

And I'll see Peter Walker wherever I roam,

Cause I still call my Psyche Ward,

still call my Psyche Ward,

still call my Psyche Ward.....home.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.artikcommunity.biz/showthread.php?t=101636

Hot Chip please reconsider your abuse to Philthy. He only talks like this

to get the attention he craves and all you are doing is feeding his ego.

Also as he suffers form a Bipolar Disorder and at times is quite

certifiable.

Philthy is a very sad little old man in his late 50's with no family (except

a retarded sister) who lives alone in a rented bed-sit in the back blocks of

Sydney. He has no qualifications (not even a driver's licence) and is a

backyard, small domestic appliance repairer. He is also called Toaster Boy

as a term of endearment ;-) Philthy squandered a fully funded scholarship

to Sydney uni in the early 70's and has a chip on his shoulder ever since.

He is even still technically a virgin having never been married or even had

a girlfriend but he did go to Catholic Boys school though ;-)

So this sad, pathetic creature sits at home all day playing at being someone

of importance while at his keyboard pretending his backyard "hobby" repair

business is actually successful.

So my advice is, let it drop and ignore him. Or if you live in Sydney drive

around and visit him and discuss your concerns face to face. I have offered

to come over and play baseball or cricket with him but he has declined my

generous offers. Once I even offered to take him Shark fishing in Sydney

Harbour and he declined that too ;-) No pleasing some people eh? ;-)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"DavidW" <no@email.provided> wrote in message
news:4e728043$0$26287$a8266bb1@newsreader.readnews.com...


Hi DavidW

This is why I killfiled him long ago. He is incapable of handling any
situation where an opinion differs from his, or his perception of the poster
having less knowledge than his self-measured standard, without a hysterical
stream of foul language and a direct attack on the person concerned. You
have to be sorry for such a dysfunctional person, or angry with whoever made
him turn out like that. I believe he may some (probably incomplete)
knowledge of electronics and I for one would have asked for his advice from
time to time. But having read the quality of most of his replies, I think
not....



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ask Philthy why he left his bed-sit in Lackey St. Summer

Hill? Apparently the neighbour put up security cameras to

watch all the unusual comings and goings into Philthy's flat

and that drove him insane. Well..... errrrrrr..... say no

more ;-)

So neighbours have had a few wins with our little resident

psycho ;-) Not mention I'm sure he gets sick to death of

being punched in his smutty, big mouth!

Cheers TT

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would strongly suggest that drastic action not be used but by all means

give him a call. He is listed in the Sydney White Pages under Phillip

(Martin) Allison

8 Tintern Rd Ashfield NSW 2131 (02) 9799 8242

BTW when you have a look via Google Maps at the dingy flats he lives in have

a look across the road and you will see a park and some public toilets.

Nothing like being near to where the action is eh? ;-)

BTW did you know that Philthy has actually posted "Wanted Dead or Alive"

threads to aus.hi-fi and offered money for information on an anonymous

poster?!

Cheers TT
 
"Yaputya" <yaputya.leftlegin@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a929tcF65hU2@mid.individual.net...
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:i_SVr.28178$aR.13398@fx06.am4...


"Yaputya" <yaputya.leftlegin@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a8l6sqF4udU1@mid.individual.net...

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:a8jiktFvaeU1@mid.individual.net...

"Yaputya"

** IME ( and that is not inconsiderable ) the idea of 5 x Lithium
button cells in series, connected only by pressure, gives me the
*willies* - and I expect Mr Murphy would have a fit.

I don't see why it would be such a problem .....


** But you are an ass.

Fuck off.

Phil hasn't taken his pills today.

He's a bit grumpy - someone put superglue on his dildo.


Others have been pissed off with Phil, his abuse knows no bounds.....
The following is the result of a simple search.....

The Phil Allison Song

Posted in aus.hi-fi and sung to the tune

"I still call Australia home"
Click to expand...

TBF - JF is rapidly overtaking Philthy as the Usenet loon.
 
On Wednesday, 8 August 2012 20:50:33 UTC+10, Ross Herbert wrote:
I have been restoring an old APO Multimeter No.3 by giving it a good going over inside and out.
Click to expand...

Hi Ross,

I just bought one of these on ebay to add to my multimeter collection but it requires some repairs as it has been modified inside. Do you by any chance have a circuit for this model.
 
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