EV Charging in the UK

[Rick C]

I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trough.. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

The other is that many individual homes are on PME circuits where no separate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral. This neutral is bonded to water pipes and any other exposed metal that could be grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened there would be no shock hazard since there is no ground to make contact with as the grounds in the house are all at neutral voltage. This does make it hard to use electricity outside where you could contact a true earth ground and suffer electrocution with any grounded appliance. To mitigate this a ground rod at the house is required which in many cases is prohibitively expensive to install with an adequately conductive path.

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough charging capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in public facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and parking lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to the cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word for that one.

Rick C.

 

[bitrex]

On 6/15/19 4:05 PM, Rick C wrote:

I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

The other is that many individual homes are on PME circuits where no separate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral. This neutral is bonded to water pipes and any other exposed metal that could be grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened there would be no shock hazard since there is no ground to make contact with as the grounds in the house are all at neutral voltage. This does make it hard to use electricity outside where you could contact a true earth ground and suffer electrocution with any grounded appliance. To mitigate this a ground rod at the house is required which in many cases is prohibitively expensive to install with an adequately conductive path.

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough charging capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in public facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and parking lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to the cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word for that one.

Rick C.

Makes a lot more sense to have centrally located charging facilities in
the UK.

<https://www.electrive.com/2018/02/19/national-grid-install-high-power-charging-across-uk/>

50 charging stations and the claim is that would position all EV drivers
always within at least 50 miles of a charging station.

 

[bitrex]

On 6/15/19 5:29 PM, bitrex wrote:

On 6/15/19 4:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than
it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW
between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption
in the trough.  That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30
million vehicles for 50 miles.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that.  One is that
distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household
in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of).  This clearly
makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise
would be fine for a typical user.  In this case it would require
replacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

The other is that many individual homes are on PME circuits where no
separate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral.  This
neutral is bonded to water pipes and any other exposed metal that
could be grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system.
This is considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened
there would be no shock hazard since there is no ground to make
contact with as the grounds in the house are all at neutral voltage.
This does make it hard to use electricity outside where you could
contact a true earth ground and suffer electrocution with any grounded
appliance.  To mitigate this a ground rod at the house is required
which in many cases is prohibitively expensive to install with an
adequately conductive path.

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough
charging capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the
street or in public facilities.  I expect it is practical to install
curb side and parking lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in
fact tiny compared to the cost of a car.  But I kinda have to take
them at their word for that one.

Rick C.


Makes a lot more sense to have centrally located charging facilities in
the UK.

https://www.electrive.com/2018/02/19/national-grid-install-high-power-charging-across-uk/


50 charging stations and the claim is that would position all EV drivers
always within at least 50 miles of a charging station.

At most, rather

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 17:29:59 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/15/19 4:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

The other is that many individual homes are on PME circuits where no separate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral. This neutral is bonded to water pipes and any other exposed metal that could be grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened there would be no shock hazard since there is no ground to make contact with as the grounds in the house are all at neutral voltage. This does make it hard to use electricity outside where you could contact a true earth ground and suffer electrocution with any grounded appliance. To mitigate this a ground rod at the house is required which in many cases is prohibitively expensive to install with an adequately conductive path.

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough charging capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in public facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and parking lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to the cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word for that one.

Rick C.


Makes a lot more sense to have centrally located charging facilities in
the UK.

https://www.electrive.com/2018/02/19/national-grid-install-high-power-charging-across-uk/

50 charging stations and the claim is that would position all EV drivers
always within at least 50 miles of a charging station.

Cool. Drive 100 miles round trip to charge your car.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

On Saturday, 15 June 2019 21:05:31 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:

I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of).

We do. Our supply is a paper cable. I've lost count of how many times it's shorted out.


> This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

Which is all underground in towns, cities & villages.


> The other is that many individual homes are on PME circuits where no separate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral.

The neutral is also ground in PME systems

> This neutral is bonded to water pipes and any other exposed metal that could be grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened there would be no shock hazard since there is no ground to make contact with as the grounds in the house are all at neutral voltage.

That is not ideal safety-wise, but mostly works. The main reason it's considered safe is in the name, protective multiple earth. There are repeated earthing points. Losing one does not make anything live.

> This does make it hard to use electricity outside where you could contact a true earth ground and suffer electrocution with any grounded appliance.

If it's regarded as an issue you just use IT earthing for the outdoor feed, ie a local ground rod

> To mitigate this a ground rod at the house is required which in many cases is prohibitively expensive to install with an adequately conductive path.

not really, nothing expensive about them. Where impedance is high one uses an RCD - but those are universal now anyway.

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough charging capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in public facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and parking lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to the cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word for that one.

Rick C.

Everything I've heard indicates that kerbside charging would be very expensive to install in quantity. The infrastructure to support iy isn't there.


NT

 

[Winfield Hill]

tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote...

On Saturday, 15 June 2019, Rick C wrote:

But I'm being told there are two problems with that.
One is that distribution is sized for an average of
2 kW consumption per household in many older areas ...

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

Bogus. I can't believe houses don't have enough
current capacity (2kW/230V = 9A) to run 1.5kW
microwave ovens, dishwashers, washers, electric
dryers, lights, TVs, HVAC, and a few electric
water heaters. In my visits to England, they
even had heated towel racks in their bathrooms.
A household without those basic amenities isn't
going to be buying EV cars anyway.

My car charges in 4 hours overnight, taking only
1.4kW while doing so. I've driven 4k miles so
far, and still have 80% of my second tank of gas.

The infrastructure Rick is thinking about is for
level 2 fast charging, which might be useful for
a few long trips, but not for everyday commuting.


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[bitrex]

On 6/15/19 6:19 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 17:29:59 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/15/19 4:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

The other is that many individual homes are on PME circuits where no separate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral. This neutral is bonded to water pipes and any other exposed metal that could be grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened there would be no shock hazard since there is no ground to make contact with as the grounds in the house are all at neutral voltage. This does make it hard to use electricity outside where you could contact a true earth ground and suffer electrocution with any grounded appliance. To mitigate this a ground rod at the house is required which in many cases is prohibitively expensive to install with an adequately conductive path.

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough charging capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in public facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and parking lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to the cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word for that one.

Rick C.


Makes a lot more sense to have centrally located charging facilities in
the UK.

https://www.electrive.com/2018/02/19/national-grid-install-high-power-charging-across-uk/

50 charging stations and the claim is that would position all EV drivers
always within at least 50 miles of a charging station.

Cool. Drive 100 miles round trip to charge your car.

Only if you live in far northern Scotland or Cornwall or something, most
of the UK's population lives in, y'know, population centers.

The average round-trip work car commute in the UK is less than 20 miles
(thru god-awful traffic.) Even 2kW overnight charge is enough for that

 

On Saturday, 15 June 2019 13:05:31 UTC-7, Rick C wrote:

I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

The average car mileage in the UK is about 8,000 miles per year, even allowing for increased usage during weekdays it probably only amounts to 25-30 miles per day to recharge. Not 50 miles.

The more optimistic view would therefore be that about 50% of the cars could be charged without requiring any further investment in power generation equipment.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

I'm somewhat skeptical of that.

My parents house in the UK was built in the 1950's and it had a 40A service - that is 10kW.

Admittedly there are many older houses and areas but in the 75 years since WW2 much of the country has been rewired to meet the modern standards which were established about that time.

Also I suspect that is the long term average for generation not necessarily the limit for wiring. After all every house would have items such as microwaves etc and in particular the electric kettle for making the cup of tea.

Electric kettles in UK usually have a 3kW heating element (240V @ 13A) and it is a well known phenomenon that during intervals of popular TV programs a large percentage of the population goes to "make a cup of tea" causing a huge increase in electrical consumption. The system can already tolerate that. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup)

Also the 3kW of power available from a normal outlet means that charging is significantly faster than in the US. It would provide 10-12miles/hour for most EVs. ~100 miles overnight, without any special wiring.

KW
....

Rick C.

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 5:30:04 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 6/15/19 4:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

The other is that many individual homes are on PME circuits where no separate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral. This neutral is bonded to water pipes and any other exposed metal that could be grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened there would be no shock hazard since there is no ground to make contact with as the grounds in the house are all at neutral voltage. This does make it hard to use electricity outside where you could contact a true earth ground and suffer electrocution with any grounded appliance. To mitigate this a ground rod at the house is required which in many cases is prohibitively expensive to install with an adequately conductive path.

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough charging capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in public facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and parking lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to the cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word for that one.

Rick C.


Makes a lot more sense to have centrally located charging facilities in
the UK.

https://www.electrive.com/2018/02/19/national-grid-install-high-power-charging-across-uk/

50 charging stations and the claim is that would position all EV drivers
always within at least 50 miles of a charging station.

Can you explain how that makes sense? The gasoline distribution model is the one that is a PITA with drivers having to drive someplace to fill up. EVs can charge at home... at least in most first world countries. Then your car is always topped off and you never need to visit a messy, ugly, smelly filling station unless you are on a long trip and feel the need for using dirty bathrooms. Fast DC chargers such as these are only useful for long trips. This makes literally no sense for every day use. Would you drive 50 miles to fill your car with gas?

Or are you being facetious?

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 12:16:10 AM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:

On Saturday, 15 June 2019 21:00:46 UTC-7, Rick C wrote:
On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 7:43:03 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
tabbypur...
...
These guys get very touchy if I ask them too many questions or probe too deeply about what is behind what they tell me. But I think the 2 kW figure is for older neighborhoods (estates) that were wired in the 70s when aluminum was being used. They talk about the ground sheath being erroded away losing safety grounds or on PEN (PME) type circuits losing the neutral that cause the house neutral to become high voltage.

I have never heard of Aluminium wiring being used in the UK. Especially in the 70s.

These guys are hams and my experience is that when you have a group of them the collective knowledge is large and accurate.

By the 50's the current outlet and wiring standard was introduced, houses built since then would have wiring similar to today including such features as ring mains.

I'm highly skeptical that individual houses or even sub-divisions are wired with a 2kW allowance per house.

A single electric kettle takes 3kW - they couldn't make a cup of tea

That might be a reasonable average over a much longer period (e.g. 24hours) - but not a shorter period.

It's not a time average. It's a population average. How many people flush their toilets at the same time? Normally there is a pretty steady flow of water in most pipes in the distribution system. But if everyone in a neighborhood flushes at the same time the pressure will drop considerably. But how often will that happen? Someone here mentioned the tea kettle during the commercial break phenomenon. But even then it takes, what, 2 minutes to heat tea? 1 minute? The distribution wiring won't explode from that.

I can't argue with either you or the others who gave the 2 kW figure. He is in the business and you make a good analysis which is what I thought. I essentially got shouted down when I tried to present that analysis. I felt like I was in Parliament.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 9:23:42 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:

On Saturday, 15 June 2019 13:05:31 UTC-7, Rick C wrote:
I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

The average car mileage in the UK is about 8,000 miles per year, even allowing for increased usage during weekdays it probably only amounts to 25-30 miles per day to recharge. Not 50 miles.

The more optimistic view would therefore be that about 50% of the cars could be charged without requiring any further investment in power generation equipment.

Ok, if you say so, I won't argue. I was trying to use numbers that could not be disputed. The same point applies in the US but many can't understand that EVs actually help the electrical system since it would take advantage of underutilized capacity during off peak times reducing the average cost of electricity.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

I'm somewhat skeptical of that.

My parents house in the UK was built in the 1950's and it had a 40A service - that is 10kW.

That doesn't mean the distribution was sized so everyone could use 10 kW. We have the same issue in the US, but when I tried to raise that issue in a Tesla forum I was told many things about this not being a significant factor. I have to admit a 3 to 5 kW load at night is not so big a fraction of the typical use as in the UK most likely. I can't independently verify what typical design capacities are in the US or the UK.


> Admittedly there are many older houses and areas but in the 75 years since WW2 much of the country has been rewired to meet the modern standards which were established about that time.

But how modern were they in the years after the war?


> Also I suspect that is the long term average for generation not necessarily the limit for wiring. After all every house would have items such as microwaves etc and in particular the electric kettle for making the cup of tea..

This number came from a person who works in that capacity. So I can't dispute his numbers without having a reference of my own.

Electric kettles in UK usually have a 3kW heating element (240V @ 13A) and it is a well known phenomenon that during intervals of popular TV programs a large percentage of the population goes to "make a cup of tea" causing a huge increase in electrical consumption. The system can already tolerate that. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup)

Also the 3kW of power available from a normal outlet means that charging is significantly faster than in the US. It would provide 10-12miles/hour for most EVs. ~100 miles overnight, without any special wiring.

Yes, US outlets can provide 1.5 kW. Can UK outlets provide a full 13 amps continuously? I think someone told me that which is different from the US where continuous loads have to be derated to 80%, so 12 amps at 120 volts.

There have been times when I needed more charge than that overnight, but only once or twice. The end result was that I had to stop for a Supercharger visit on the way rather than running all the way to NC without stopping. Not so big a deal. After having my car for nearly a year I still have not installed level 2 charging. I used to use level 1 outlets, but now I just use a Supercharger along my route.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Saturday, 15 June 2019 21:00:46 UTC-7, Rick C wrote:

On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 7:43:03 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
tabbypur...
....
These guys get very touchy if I ask them too many questions or probe too deeply about what is behind what they tell me. But I think the 2 kW figure is for older neighborhoods (estates) that were wired in the 70s when aluminum was being used. They talk about the ground sheath being erroded away losing safety grounds or on PEN (PME) type circuits losing the neutral that cause the house neutral to become high voltage.

I have never heard of Aluminium wiring being used in the UK. Especially in the 70s.

By the 50's the current outlet and wiring standard was introduced, houses built since then would have wiring similar to today including such features as ring mains.

I'm highly skeptical that individual houses or even sub-divisions are wired with a 2kW allowance per house.

A single electric kettle takes 3kW - they couldn't make a cup of tea

That might be a reasonable average over a much longer period (e.g. 24hours) - but not a shorter period.

kevin

....

Rick C.

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 7:43:03 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:

tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote...

On Saturday, 15 June 2019, Rick C wrote:

But I'm being told there are two problems with that.
One is that distribution is sized for an average of
2 kW consumption per household in many older areas ...

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

Bogus. I can't believe houses don't have enough
current capacity (2kW/230V = 9A) to run 1.5kW
microwave ovens, dishwashers, washers, electric
dryers, lights, TVs, HVAC, and a few electric
water heaters. In my visits to England, they
even had heated towel racks in their bathrooms.
A household without those basic amenities isn't
going to be buying EV cars anyway.

These guys get very touchy if I ask them too many questions or probe too deeply about what is behind what they tell me. But I think the 2 kW figure is for older neighborhoods (estates) that were wired in the 70s when aluminum was being used. They talk about the ground sheath being erroded away losing safety grounds or on PEN (PME) type circuits losing the neutral that cause the house neutral to become high voltage.

They talk like there are a lot of these which have never been upgraded. Remember this is a country that shortchanged the grid to the point it is constantly on the verge of collapse at peak times.

My car charges in 4 hours overnight, taking only
1.4kW while doing so. I've driven 4k miles so
far, and still have 80% of my second tank of gas.

Your car is a hybrid with a very limited battery range and your driving pattern is of very limited range needs. Not many people can make that work the way you do.

The infrastructure Rick is thinking about is for
level 2 fast charging, which might be useful for
a few long trips, but not for everyday commuting.

No, I am talking about level 2 charging, but there is nothing fast about it.. A typical outlet in the UK provides 3 kW which will provide 150 miles of range in a Tesla model 3 overnight. Overnight charging also prevents stressing the generation and transmission infrastructure since it won't be until the country is 33% EVs that the spare capacity is used up. The UK does not appear to be an early adopter, so that will likely take some 10 years. That will give them plenty of time to build additional generating capacity.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 6:37:03 PM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, 15 June 2019 21:05:31 UTC+1, Rick C wrote:
I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of).

We do. Our supply is a paper cable. I've lost count of how many times it's shorted out.


This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

Which is all underground in towns, cities & villages.


The other is that many individual homes are on PME circuits where no separate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral.

The neutral is also ground in PME systems

This neutral is bonded to water pipes and any other exposed metal that could be grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened there would be no shock hazard since there is no ground to make contact with as the grounds in the house are all at neutral voltage.

That is not ideal safety-wise, but mostly works. The main reason it's considered safe is in the name, protective multiple earth. There are repeated earthing points. Losing one does not make anything live.

This does make it hard to use electricity outside where you could contact a true earth ground and suffer electrocution with any grounded appliance..

If it's regarded as an issue you just use IT earthing for the outdoor feed, ie a local ground rod

To mitigate this a ground rod at the house is required which in many cases is prohibitively expensive to install with an adequately conductive path.

not really, nothing expensive about them. Where impedance is high one uses an RCD - but those are universal now anyway.

So why didn't those guys tell me about the RCD solution? That's what we call a GFCI I believe, trips on unbalanced current in neutral and ground, right?

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough charging capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in public facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and parking lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to the cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word for that one.

Rick C.

Everything I've heard indicates that kerbside charging would be very expensive to install in quantity. The infrastructure to support iy isn't there.

You sound like you can address this rationally. Can you verify the 2 kW per house typical usage? That seems awfully low. I understand coffee makers in the UK are designed to use the full 13 amps on a 240 volt circuit. That is 3 kW. So with a few other things drawing similar loads I don't see how a distribution system designed for 2 kW could ever suffice. Is this one of those things where the 2 kW figure only applies to older neighborhoods? Any idea of what percentage of the homes are like this?

I have to acknowledge that if this 2 kW number is correct and a large fraction of homes in the UK receive such meager distribution, home EV charging of any significant fraction of the cars would be impossible. Otherwise adding a simple 13 amp outlet accessible to the EV would suffice for charging up to 150 miles per night or more.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Saturday, 15 June 2019 21:16:10 UTC-7, Rick C wrote:

On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 9:23:42 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Saturday, 15 June 2019 13:05:31 UTC-7, Rick C wrote:

....
...
> Yes, US outlets can provide 1.5 kW. Can UK outlets provide a full 13 amps continuously? I think someone told me that which is different from the US where continuous loads have to be derated to 80%, so 12 amps at 120 volts.

I've never seen a formal derating. Items such as kettles can be the full 13A (~3kW) but they take the load for a short time. The house wiring is actually good for high current as it is usually on a ring main.

I see that the BMWi3 and the Leaf both are set to 10A when powered from a normal outlet. (2.4kW)

kw

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (15 Jun 2019 16:42:45 -0700) it happened Winfield Hill
<winfieldhill@yahoo.com> wrote in <qe3vpl02a43@drn.newsguy.com>:

tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote...

On Saturday, 15 June 2019, Rick C wrote:

But I'm being told there are two problems with that.
One is that distribution is sized for an average of
2 kW consumption per household in many older areas ...

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

Bogus. I can't believe houses don't have enough
current capacity (2kW/230V = 9A) to run 1.5kW
microwave ovens, dishwashers, washers, electric
dryers, lights, TVs, HVAC, and a few electric
water heaters. In my visits to England, they
even had heated towel racks in their bathrooms.
A household without those basic amenities isn't
going to be buying EV cars anyway.

My car charges in 4 hours overnight, taking only
1.4kW while doing so. I've driven 4k miles so
far, and still have 80% of my second tank of gas.

The infrastructure Rick is thinking about is for
level 2 fast charging, which might be useful for
a few long trips, but not for everyday commuting.

I just wonder if UK leaves EU if they will go back to 240 V ;-)
Or maybe even 380 just to make a difference.
US 110 is also a possibility, if trump says so.


In the end the whole climate hype is a hoax,
climate change is not human caused,
it is set by orbital parameters:
https://old.world-mysteries.com/alignments/mpl_al3b.htm

So, we need to bring all power we can online for the future.
diversify,
even that will not be enough, mass migration, and possibly a big reduction in human species
will happen.

Oil will get us through a while..
Where does the oil come from?:
It is the condensed early earth atmosphere, it is everywhere in the ground.

Kid's brains were polluted by climate games played by that what's his name
(cannot remember the polar bears idiot) politicians for profit.
It is a political game for profit.
Mass manipulation.

Making all transport electric is wrong, you need to diversify.
One hacker, one solar storm , one high altitude nuke, is all it takes
to kill most of civilization if all is electric,
It will happen, (looks up date, oops)...
Al Gore, that is where the crap started.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 20:12:30 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/15/19 6:19 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 17:29:59 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/15/19 4:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

The other is that many individual homes are on PME circuits where no separate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral. This neutral is bonded to water pipes and any other exposed metal that could be grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened there would be no shock hazard since there is no ground to make contact with as the grounds in the house are all at neutral voltage. This does make it hard to use electricity outside where you could contact a true earth ground and suffer electrocution with any grounded appliance. To mitigate this a ground rod at the house is required which in many cases is prohibitively expensive to install with an adequately conductive path.

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough charging capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in public facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and parking lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to the cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word for that one.

Rick C.


Makes a lot more sense to have centrally located charging facilities in
the UK.

https://www.electrive.com/2018/02/19/national-grid-install-high-power-charging-across-uk/

50 charging stations and the claim is that would position all EV drivers
always within at least 50 miles of a charging station.

Cool. Drive 100 miles round trip to charge your car.



Only if you live in far northern Scotland or Cornwall or something, most
of the UK's population lives in, y'know, population centers.

The average round-trip work car commute in the UK is less than 20 miles
(thru god-awful traffic.) Even 2kW overnight charge is enough for that

If you only drive a few miles a day in a regular car, you won't use
much gasoline so you won't Destroy The Planet. You can spend 5
minutes, every few weeks, filling up. That's just about the right
amount of time to squeegie the windows.

If you drive long distances, charging an electric car becomes a
nuisance.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[bitrex]

On 6/15/19 11:39 PM, Rick C wrote:

On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 5:30:04 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/15/19 4:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

The other is that many individual homes are on PME circuits where no separate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral. This neutral is bonded to water pipes and any other exposed metal that could be grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened there would be no shock hazard since there is no ground to make contact with as the grounds in the house are all at neutral voltage. This does make it hard to use electricity outside where you could contact a true earth ground and suffer electrocution with any grounded appliance. To mitigate this a ground rod at the house is required which in many cases is prohibitively expensive to install with an adequately conductive path.

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough charging capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in public facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and parking lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to the cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word for that one.

Rick C.


Makes a lot more sense to have centrally located charging facilities in
the UK.

https://www.electrive.com/2018/02/19/national-grid-install-high-power-charging-across-uk/

50 charging stations and the claim is that would position all EV drivers
always within at least 50 miles of a charging station.

Can you explain how that makes sense? The gasoline distribution model is the one that is a PITA with drivers having to drive someplace to fill up. EVs can charge at home... at least in most first world countries. Then your car is always topped off and you never need to visit a messy, ugly, smelly filling station unless you are on a long trip and feel the need for using dirty bathrooms. Fast DC chargers such as these are only useful for long trips. This makes literally no sense for every day use. Would you drive 50 miles to fill your car with gas?

Or are you being facetious?

The average UK resident drives well under 10k miles a year, with a car
with 250 mile range and a fast charger you'd only have to go to the
"filling station" once a week.

Plenty of Model S, etc. drivers operate their cars that way in
Massachusetts and Rhode Island. one guy lives in a condo like I do he
doesn't even have a garage, where's he gonna put a level 2 charger to
charge up overnight?

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 16/06/19 05:16, Rick C wrote:

On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 9:23:42 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Saturday, 15 June 2019 13:05:31 UTC-7, Rick C wrote:
I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than it
is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW
between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in
the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30
million vehicles for 50 miles.

The average car mileage in the UK is about 8,000 miles per year, even
allowing for increased usage during weekdays it probably only amounts to
25-30 miles per day to recharge. Not 50 miles.

That's a good example of where the mean value can be misleading.

My normal daily travel is, I guess, less than 20 miles. But one
day last week it was 450 miles. I need a car that can do both.

That took ~12 hours, including stops in the middle of nowhere
to relax and snooze. The latter would not have been possible
in a petrol forecourt.

The more optimistic view would therefore be that about 50% of the cars
could be charged without requiring any further investment in power
generation equipment.

Ok, if you say so, I won't argue. I was trying to use numbers that could not
be disputed. The same point applies in the US but many can't understand that
EVs actually help the electrical system since it would take advantage of
underutilized capacity during off peak times reducing the average cost of
electricity.


But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that
distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in
many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes
it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be
fine for a typical user. In this case it would require replacement of a
lot of distribution cabling.

I'm somewhat skeptical of that.

My parents house in the UK was built in the 1950's and it had a 40A service
- that is 10kW.

That doesn't mean the distribution was sized so everyone could use 10 kW. We
have the same issue in the US, but when I tried to raise that issue in a
Tesla forum I was told many things about this not being a significant factor.
I have to admit a 3 to 5 kW load at night is not so big a fraction of the
typical use as in the UK most likely. I can't independently verify what
typical design capacities are in the US or the UK.


Admittedly there are many older houses and areas but in the 75 years since
WW2 much of the country has been rewired to meet the modern standards which
were established about that time.

But how modern were they in the years after the war?

IIRC the first major standardisation was to 240V with 5A
sockets. In the 50s/60s most places were rewired to 13A
sockets. I remember as a kid (early 60s) having to change
mains plugs when I took toys to my friend's house because
they still had the old plugs.

Electric kettles in UK usually have a 3kW heating element (240V @ 13A) and
it is a well known phenomenon that during intervals of popular TV programs
a large percentage of the population goes to "make a cup of tea" causing a
huge increase in electrical consumption. The system can already tolerate
that. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup)

Also the 3kW of power available from a normal outlet means that charging is
significantly faster than in the US. It would provide 10-12miles/hour for
most EVs. ~100 miles overnight, without any special wiring.

Yes, US outlets can provide 1.5 kW. Can UK outlets provide a full 13 amps
continuously? I think someone told me that which is different from the US
where continuous loads have to be derated to 80%, so 12 amps at 120 volts.

Yes, individual sockets are rated to deliver 13A continuously.
However, they are usually on ring mains which have 5A (lighting)
or 30A (sockets) thermal fuses.

Then there are electric showers and electric ovens, which have
dedicated lines run from the fuse box, and are rated up to 7kW.

Modern houses may be different, but in the UK many houses
are 100-200 years old and will have been rewired in the 50s
or 60s.

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 12:58:43 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 6/15/19 11:39 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 5:30:04 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/15/19 4:05 PM, Rick C wrote:
I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per household in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would be fine for a typical user. In this case it would require replacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

The other is that many individual homes are on PME circuits where no separate ground is provided to the home, only the neutral. This neutral is bonded to water pipes and any other exposed metal that could be grounded my any means, like an old radiator heating system. This is considered safe since even if the neutral to the home opened there would be no shock hazard since there is no ground to make contact with as the grounds in the house are all at neutral voltage. This does make it hard to use electricity outside where you could contact a true earth ground and suffer electrocution with any grounded appliance. To mitigate this a ground rod at the house is required which in many cases is prohibitively expensive to install with an adequately conductive path.

So are these two problems being presented realistically?

I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough charging capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the street or in public facilities. I expect it is practical to install curb side and parking lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to the cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word for that one.

Rick C.


Makes a lot more sense to have centrally located charging facilities in
the UK.

https://www.electrive.com/2018/02/19/national-grid-install-high-power-charging-across-uk/

50 charging stations and the claim is that would position all EV drivers
always within at least 50 miles of a charging station.

Can you explain how that makes sense? The gasoline distribution model is the one that is a PITA with drivers having to drive someplace to fill up.. EVs can charge at home... at least in most first world countries. Then your car is always topped off and you never need to visit a messy, ugly, smelly filling station unless you are on a long trip and feel the need for using dirty bathrooms. Fast DC chargers such as these are only useful for long trips. This makes literally no sense for every day use. Would you drive 50 miles to fill your car with gas?

Or are you being facetious?


The average UK resident drives well under 10k miles a year, with a car
with 250 mile range and a fast charger you'd only have to go to the
"filling station" once a week.

Plenty of Model S, etc. drivers operate their cars that way in
Massachusetts and Rhode Island. one guy lives in a condo like I do he
doesn't even have a garage, where's he gonna put a level 2 charger to
charge up overnight?

There are plenty of people who do all manner of things. That doesn't mean many others will. For the most part, people want EVs to emulate an ICE because that is what they are used to. I've been shuttling my brother to medical appointments the last few days and while the EV has been no problem at all and I was able to fully charge it overnight at the local hospital parking deck which is just a block away, he still insists he couldn't drive an EV because they take so long to charge and once in a while he has to go on long trips.

On the other hand a friend went with me to North Carolina where we managed to get there without charging, but had to charge on the way back. We stopped at a Wawa and got something to eat and chatted with a few people. I looked at my phone app which showed it had something like 75% which is well more than enough to continue the trip and he was surprised that it didn't even take an hour, about 40 minutes I think.

I think it is silly to use the "fast" chargers the same way people use filling stations. Some don't live in places where they can plug in at home, so they have to use the filling station model. But the vast majority of EV owners plug in at home and literally never need to visit a charger unless they want to take a long trip. Consider the time you save not messing with the hassle of gas stations.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209