Equivalent, or better, replacement for CapXon 10uF, 50Vdc ca

[RobertMacy]

Have two caps in my Vizio TV that read more than 1.7 ohms Resr !! at
100kHz.

These are CapXon radial leads 10uF, 50Vdc 105C, in orange plastic wrap
with lettering of P10108, approx 5mm wide by 12mm long

Did a google search and found two catalog/data sheets, 471kB and 6.1MB
listing all kinds, but did not see this style ?? Is it in there and I
missed?

Does anybody know a 'better' cap to replace these with? [there appears to
be adequate room on the PCB to place slightly larger caps] I'm going to
guess best place is Digikey and use Nichicon, Panasonic, or ?? So exactly
WHAT should I replace these with?

 

[jfeng@my-deja.com]

On Sunday, September 7, 2014 3:34:01 PM UTC-7, Robert Macy wrote:

Does anybody know a 'better' cap to replace these with?
It is amazing to see how much you agonize over a part that costs less than 15 cents at retail. What is your criterion for "better"? What is the function of these capacitors (coupling, bypass, resonator, etc)? Do you need a hermetically sealed or a vented package? What is the actuasl dc working voltage? How large is the ac component? Since it is in a Vizio, I would guess the most important parameter is "chaep". In the absence of real knowledge, I would guess it is a bypoass of some sort, and I would use any cheap electolytic in the 10-47uF range, as long as I could make it fit; I would buy ones with at least a 50 WVDC rating, but you might be able to get away with less if you really understood your circuit (thereby saving 2-5 cents). For long term reliability, you might choose tantalum capacitors in metal cans with glass seals, but they have functional disadvantages in some circuits (bseides being larger and more expensive).

 

[Tom Miller]

"RobertMacy" <robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote in message
newsp.xlt8yzpc2cx0wh@ajm...

Have two caps in my Vizio TV that read more than 1.7 ohms Resr !! at
100kHz.

These are CapXon radial leads 10uF, 50Vdc 105C, in orange plastic wrap
with lettering of P10108, approx 5mm wide by 12mm long

Did a google search and found two catalog/data sheets, 471kB and 6.1MB
listing all kinds, but did not see this style ?? Is it in there and I
missed?

Does anybody know a 'better' cap to replace these with? [there appears to
be adequate room on the PCB to place slightly larger caps] I'm going to
guess best place is Digikey and use Nichicon, Panasonic, or ?? So exactly
WHAT should I replace these with?

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/PLV1K100MCL1/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsIwzbKW1rlgcCYXFv9g2xALPDIlTqZoy8%3d

 

[Maynard A. Philbrook Jr.]

In article <op.xlt8yzpc2cx0wh@ajm>, robert.a.macy@gmail.com says...

Have two caps in my Vizio TV that read more than 1.7 ohms Resr !! at
100kHz.

These are CapXon radial leads 10uF, 50Vdc 105C, in orange plastic wrap
with lettering of P10108, approx 5mm wide by 12mm long

Did a google search and found two catalog/data sheets, 471kB and 6.1MB
listing all kinds, but did not see this style ?? Is it in there and I
missed?

Does anybody know a 'better' cap to replace these with? [there appears to
be adequate room on the PCB to place slightly larger caps] I'm going to
guess best place is Digikey and use Nichicon, Panasonic, or ?? So exactly
WHAT should I replace these with?

if this reading is only showing at 100khz and not at 1khz, what do you
think you're going to improve?

These things do have inductance... if it really bothers you that bad
then put a few in parallel of smaller values. Also, you can tie a
non inductive type of a low value across it to help at the higher
frequencies.

Jamie

 

[jfeng@my-deja.com]

On Sunday, September 7, 2014 3:34:01 PM UTC-7, Robert Macy wrote:

So exactly
WHAT should I replace these with?
Why dont you restore the old capacitors? The high ESR is probably due to dried-out electrolyte. Get a hypodermic needle and carefully (so you don't short out the foils) inject some water (distilled will work better than tap). You might also need to re-form the dielectric. Total out-of-pocket cost: zero!

 

[Jeroni Paul]

In my experience it is normal for such a small capacitor to read a few ohms ESR. Are you sure these capacitors are giving you trouble?

 

[RobertMacy]

On Sun, 07 Sep 2014 15:59:38 -0700, Tom Miller <tmiller11147@verizon.net>
wrote:

...snip...

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/PLV1K100MCL1/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsIwzbKW1rlgcCYXFv9g2xALPDIlTqZoy8%3d

Tom, thanks for the EXACT URL that looks like it'll work!

At one PCB location, the cap is vertically mounted next to another cap, so
could get tight. The other place, it's all by itself bent down with the
body parallel to the PCB surface. so very likely easily made to fit in
both places.

The ambient in our home is higher than 'office' temperature, [Arizona
summer easily 80, often nearer to 90F] wonder if should go for the 125C
caps? thoughts? Whether to increase operating voltage or increase temp
range? I know, that's only 10+C more than office, but still every 10C
drops the MTBF by half. Let's see lasted 18 months, in office temp would
have gone 3 years, sounds about right.

 

[RobertMacy]

On Sun, 07 Sep 2014 17:16:47 -0700, jfeng@my-deja.com <jfeng@my-deja.com>
wrote:

On Sunday, September 7, 2014 3:34:01 PM UTC-7, Robert Macy wrote:
Does anybody know a 'better' cap to replace these with?
It is amazing to see how much you agonize over a part that costs less
than 15 cents at retail. What is your criterion for "better"? What is
the function of these capacitors (coupling, bypass, resonator, etc)? Do
you need a hermetically sealed or a vented package? What is the actuasl
dc working voltage? How large is the ac component? Since it is in a
Vizio, I would guess the most important parameter is "chaep". In the
absence of real knowledge, I would guess it is a bypoass of some sort,
and I would use any cheap electolytic in the 10-47uF range, as long as I
could make it fit; I would buy ones with at least a 50 WVDC rating, but
you might be able to get away with less if you really understood your
circuit (thereby saving 2-5 cents). For long term reliability, you
might choose tantalum capacitors in metal cans with glass seals, but
they have functional disadvantages in some circuits (bseides being
larger and more expensive).

Tom found a suitable replacement, cost $2 each

Might want to rethink your guesses. These caps are in the SMPS section so
probably [I'm not privvy to the details of their design] gets hit with
heat from the heat sinks, AND likely high ripple current, AND operates at
high frequency. [I assume at/above 100kHz, because that fundamental tone
in your SMPS doesn't do a lot of damage to any attempts to meet your
conducted RFI/EMI compliance requirements.

 

[RobertMacy]

On Sun, 07 Sep 2014 18:54:37 -0700, Maynard A. Philbrook Jr.
<jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net> wrote:

...snip...
if this reading is only showing at 100khz and not at 1khz, what do you
think you're going to improve?

These things do have inductance... if it really bothers you that bad
then put a few in parallel of smaller values. Also, you can tie a
non inductive type of a low value across it to help at the higher
frequencies.

Jamie

Let's see, the Zc at 1kHz for a 10uF cap is 16j ohms. The inductance
better not be more than that or the Resr be more than that.

However, at 100kHz the reactance of a 10uF cap is around 160mj ohms. That
could make measuring the expected 30m ohms of Resr difficult without an
LCR meter type instrument.

For inductance assuming a very small 30mj of inductance implies 50nH of
inductance. That's about 2 inches of free wire. and seems a bit high for
even a 10uF cap!


Plus, this cap is in the SMPS section where most of these type caps are
prone to fail. so 100kHz is closer to the expected operating frequency
range.

 

[RobertMacy]

On Mon, 08 Sep 2014 08:40:00 -0700, jfeng@my-deja.com <jfeng@my-deja.com>
wrote:

On Sunday, September 7, 2014 3:34:01 PM UTC-7, Robert Macy wrote:
So exactly
WHAT should I replace these with?
Why dont you restore the old capacitors? The high ESR is probably due
to dried-out electrolyte. Get a hypodermic needle and carefully (so you
don't short out the foils) inject some water (distilled will work better
than tap). You might also need to re-form the dielectric. Total
out-of-pocket cost: zero!

Oh, I'm tempted! Even as a simple challenge! I have several bottles of
distilled water used for cleaning house windows, bathroom mirrors, and the
Stainless Steel appliances that some idiot thought looked good in a
kitchen! You're talking to a guy that spent three hours to fix an $8 hair
drier, so I am tempted to try. Or, you already know about my penchant for
cheap and are simply teasing the old guy?

How about 'soaking' in distilled water for extended period of time? Think
the H2O will wick itself up in there?

 

[Tom Miller]

"RobertMacy" <robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote in message
newsp.xlvj3zio2cx0wh@ajm...

On Sun, 07 Sep 2014 15:59:38 -0700, Tom Miller <tmiller11147@verizon.net
wrote:

...snip...

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/PLV1K100MCL1/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsIwzbKW1rlgcCYXFv9g2xALPDIlTqZoy8%3d


Tom, thanks for the EXACT URL that looks like it'll work!

At one PCB location, the cap is vertically mounted next to another cap, so
could get tight. The other place, it's all by itself bent down with the
body parallel to the PCB surface. so very likely easily made to fit in
both places.

The ambient in our home is higher than 'office' temperature, [Arizona
summer easily 80, often nearer to 90F] wonder if should go for the 125C
caps? thoughts? Whether to increase operating voltage or increase temp
range? I know, that's only 10+C more than office, but still every 10C
drops the MTBF by half. Let's see lasted 18 months, in office temp would
have gone 3 years, sounds about right.

Having only milli-ohms of ESR, the internal temp should be close to ambient.
You will be surprised how small these are.

Have fun and good luck.

 

[Tom Miller]

<jfeng@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:83b02158-e4bb-40cb-99f6-280830724063@googlegroups.com...
On Sunday, September 7, 2014 3:34:01 PM UTC-7, Robert Macy wrote:

So exactly
WHAT should I replace these with?

Why dont you restore the old capacitors? The high ESR is probably due to
dried-out electrolyte. Get a hypodermic needle and carefully (so you don't
short out the foils) inject some water (distilled will work better than
tap). You might also need to re-form the dielectric. Total out-of-pocket
cost: zero!

Only if you value your time at 0. That and how many times can you rework the
irreplaceable (at reasonable cost) PC board.

 

[RobertMacy]

On Mon, 08 Sep 2014 10:29:41 -0700, Jeroni Paul <JERONI.PAUL@terra.es>
wrote:

In my experience it is normal for such a small capacitor to read a few
ohms ESR. Are you sure these capacitors are giving you trouble?

not sure, assumed. It's just the high Resr stood out compared to all the
other caps around there. Most appeared to be in the 10 milliohm ranges.

From memory, I expected 0.03 to 0.3 ohms, with 0.3 ohms being on the high
side for Resr, so when I found 1.7+ ohms, thought that was the problem.
And that Resr drops quite low by adding a bit of heat.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"RobertMacy" wrote in message newsp.xlvqp5pa2cx0wh@ajm...
On Mon, 08 Sep 2014 10:29:41 -0700, Jeroni Paul <JERONI.PAUL@terra.es>
wrote:

In my experience it is normal for such a small capacitor to read a few
ohms ESR. Are you sure these capacitors are giving you trouble?

Not sure, assumed.

Then just replace them.

I like knowing the exact reason something isn't working. But that isn't always
possible. Sometimes you have to go through a "try anything" shotgunning. You
won't get much intellectual satisfaction -- but at least the unit will be
fixed.

 

[Michael Black]

On Mon, 8 Sep 2014, William Sommerwerck wrote:

"RobertMacy" wrote in message newsp.xlvqp5pa2cx0wh@ajm...
On Mon, 08 Sep 2014 10:29:41 -0700, Jeroni Paul <JERONI.PAUL@terra.es
wrote:

In my experience it is normal for such a small capacitor to read a few
ohms ESR. Are you sure these capacitors are giving you trouble?

Not sure, assumed.

Then just replace them.

I like knowing the exact reason something isn't working. But that isn't
always possible. Sometimes you have to go through a "try anything"
shotgunning. You won't get much intellectual satisfaction -- but at least the
unit will be fixed.

The problem is, "internet knowledge". SO instead of being about teaching,
it's about solutions. Take a look at that bad caps forum. Set up to deal
with real problems based on a bad batch of electrolytic capacitors, and
the ongoing issue of electrolytic capacitors going bad due to too high
heat and high frequency ripple, suddenly that bit of folk knowledge is
extended to all capacitors, rather than understanding why some might go
bad, and others may never go bad.

Anyone can pull the electrolytics off a switching supply and in many cases
have success in getting the item back working. That gives more people the
ability to get their LCD monitor going again, and the same solid state
advances that make it doable have also made the boards so much easier to
access.

But if that doesn't work, they are stuck. They don't know electronics,
but they do know that key bit of knowledge "capacitors can go bad". So
they wonder if it's the filter capacitor on the AC side of the supply, and
anything can go bad, but since it's running at 60Hz it's not under the
same strain as the filters on the output of the switching supply. And it
goes on, people wondering if they should change ceramic capacitors. They
"know" the lingo, so they'll worry about counterfeit capacitors and buy
only the "right" brands, but unless the problem is what's mapped out, they
are lost.

Michael

 

[Phil Allison]

Robert Macy wrote:

Have two caps in my Vizio TV that read more than 1.7 ohms Resr !! at

100kHz.


These are CapXon radial leads 10uF, 50Vdc 105C, in orange plastic wrap

with lettering of P10108, approx 5mm wide by 12mm long

** That is a quite normal reading.

Tiny, low value electros have ESRs in that range.


..... Phil

 

"** That is a quite normal reading.

Tiny, low value electros have ESRs in that range.


.... Phil "

You got on my case over a post about that. THAT is exactly what I meant about the ESR should be less than a certain amount compared to Xc. Something like that.

However that does vary circuit to circuit of course. Some are very tolerant, others go apeshit at say five ohms for a 10 uF. Usually however, the engineer uses a higher value cap to take care of that. It usually takes care of ripple current problems as well.

But on topic, what this means is that this guy's problem is not solved.

 

[jfeng@my-deja.com]

On Monday, September 8, 2014 9:18:01 AM UTC-7, Robert Macy wrote:

How about 'soaking' in distilled water for extended period of time?
Think the H2O will wick itself up in there?
Absolutely. But since it took several years to dry out the electrolyte under positive pressure, at 1 atm it will take at least as long (and probably a lot longer) to diffure it in from the outside; you could speed it up by using your wife's pressure cooker.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

wrote in message news:d55ab0b9-b61d-4d91-9790-e818a03f3dc3@googlegroups.com...

> But on topic, what this means is that this guy's problem is not solved.

We don't even know //what// his problem is. He never said.

Why was he testing the caps? Is there something wrong with the unit? Or was he
just curious?

 

[RobertMacy]

On Tue, 09 Sep 2014 03:28:02 -0700, William Sommerwerck
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

wrote in message
news:d55ab0b9-b61d-4d91-9790-e818a03f3dc3@googlegroups.com...

But on topic, what this means is that this guy's problem is not solved.

We don't even know //what// his problem is. He never said.

Why was he testing the caps? Is there something wrong with the unit? Or
was he just curious?

There was a previous thread about how my Vizio TV would run and run and
run. But turn it off and it was difficult to turn back on, took several
tries. So, we left it run all the time. ...until a power outage. That took
a long time to get the TV back on again. ...until the next power outage,
so bought a new TV and stored the Vizio, and posted question here as to
where to look, the consensus was "look at those cheap dried out
electrolytics in the SMPS section, because their Resr is lowered when caps
are hot, so that's why the TV worked" [to paraphrase]

You may also recall a thread discussing the findings of using the
soundcard to determine both C and Resr as a function of Frequency. Time
passed, and then encouraged by Bob Masta releasing his new version of
Daqarta which included an LCR meter, I went back to the lab and pulled out
the Vizio. Suddenly, duh! in a fit of expediency, I used the lab's
Function Generator and a DVM capable of 100kHz Vac. Set the voltage low
enough I went on a 'check the caps' spree. Just went checking through the
SMPS section, only spot checking other sections. That's when I found these
suspect caps, including caps used 'identically' elsewhere that also had
excessively large Resr. Note the caps in the SMPS section had high Resr
while the exact same type cap used in generic bypass elsewhere had
expected Resr.

Now, I know these caps should be replaced, but as I went to replace them,
I could not easily find the 'original' capabilities and did not trust my
suitable replacements [merely stating uF and Vdc]. Thus, I posted this new
thread asking for "Equivalent, or better, replacement for CapXon 10uF,
50Vdc cap" You understand, I didn't even know these caps' tolerance!

And Tom found a Nichicon at Mouser for $2 that is 10uF, 80Vdc, and Resr of
40 milliohms! and is exactly 5mm by 12mm, so will fit. And Nichicon also
makes a tighter tolerance one that can take 100Vdc, in the same size!

All this sequence of events may appear to the casual observer as,
"bouncing off the walls", but to me the path has been a 'linear' one.
Albeit slow.