efficiencies of appliance 3-phase brushless motors?

Hello,

What is the ballpark efficiency range of washing machine or clothes dryer three-phase 110-volt AC motors?

I'm debating tearing a broken washing machine apart for the motor and controllers but was curious if the efficiency is too low to bother.

Thanks,

Michael

 

[Look165]

The efficiency only depends on the motor, 1 or 3 phases.

The only difference is the power consumption on each phase.

mrdarrett@gmail.com a Êcrit le 09/01/2019 à 20:48 :

Hello,

What is the ballpark efficiency range of washing machine or clothes dryer three-phase 110-volt AC motors?

I'm debating tearing a broken washing machine apart for the motor and controllers but was curious if the efficiency is too low to bother.

Thanks,

Michael

 

On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 12:30:54 PM UTC-8, Look165 wrote:

The efficiency only depends on the motor, 1 or 3 phases.

The only difference is the power consumption on each phase.

mrdarrett@gmail.com a Êcrit le 09/01/2019 à 20:48 :

....


How does the efficiency compare with brushless permanent magnet motors?

Michael

 

[Terminal_Crazy]

In article <4a6b10ed-3322-4937-9413-7c33cf16308d@googlegroups.com>,
<mrdarrett@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello,

What is the ballpark efficiency range of washing machine or clothes
dryer three-phase 110-volt AC motors?

I'm debating tearing a broken washing machine apart for the motor and
controllers but was curious if the efficiency is too low to bother.

Thanks,

Michael

Ours in the UK are 220/240V but get my underpants clean in 1 wash so I'd
say 100%

--

terminal_crazy@sand-hill.uk

 

On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 1:26:09 PM UTC-8, Terminal_Crazy wrote:

In article <4a6b10ed-3322-4937-9413-7c33cf16308d@googlegroups.com>,
mrdarrett@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello,

What is the ballpark efficiency range of washing machine or clothes
dryer three-phase 110-volt AC motors?

I'm debating tearing a broken washing machine apart for the motor and
controllers but was curious if the efficiency is too low to bother.

Thanks,

Michael
Ours in the UK are 220/240V but get my underpants clean in 1 wash so I'd
say 100%

--

terminal_crazy@sand-hill.uk

You have electricity in the UK?! No way!

 

[Look165]

100% efficiency doesn't exist.
A standard motor (not professional model) can barely be above 80-90%.

mrdarrett@gmail.com a Êcrit le 10/01/2019 à 04:31 :

On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 1:26:09 PM UTC-8, Terminal_Crazy wrote:
In article <4a6b10ed-3322-4937-9413-7c33cf16308d@googlegroups.com>,
mrdarrett@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello,
What is the ballpark efficiency range of washing machine or clothes
dryer three-phase 110-volt AC motors?
I'm debating tearing a broken washing machine apart for the motor and
controllers but was curious if the efficiency is too low to bother.
Thanks,
Michael
Ours in the UK are 220/240V but get my underpants clean in 1 wash so I'd
say 100%

--

terminal_crazy@sand-hill.uk

You have electricity in the UK?! No way!

 

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 1:25:05 AM UTC-8, Look165 wrote:

100% efficiency doesn't exist.
A standard motor (not professional model) can barely be above 80-90%.

Standard motor? What's that?

Looks like 3-ph motors run from 70% @ 1/4hp to around 88% at 3hp. I'd forgotten I had this in my notes.
http://fl600.usmotors.com/publication/?i=329526#{%22issue_id%22:329526,%22page%22:22}

I was curious how it compared with brushless motors but I guess this will do.

Universal motors with brushes run around 30-60% efficient.
https://www.johnsonelectric.com/en/product-technology/motion/ac-motors/universal-motors?series=universal-ac-motors

The "infinitely inefficient" shaded pole motor runs around 10-20% efficient.

Michael

 

[Look165]

The ones you have at home.

mrdarrett@gmail.com a Êcrit le 10/01/2019 à 17:35 :

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 1:25:05 AM UTC-8, Look165 wrote:
100% efficiency doesn't exist.
A standard motor (not professional model) can barely be above 80-90%.

Standard motor? What's that?

Looks like 3-ph motors run from 70% @ 1/4hp to around 88% at 3hp. I'd forgotten I had this in my notes.
http://fl600.usmotors.com/publication/?i=329526#{%22issue_id%22:329526,%22page%22:22}

I was curious how it compared with brushless motors but I guess this will do.

Universal motors with brushes run around 30-60% efficient.
https://www.johnsonelectric.com/en/product-technology/motion/ac-motors/universal-motors?series=universal-ac-motors

The "infinitely inefficient" shaded pole motor runs around 10-20% efficient.

Michael

 

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 9:23:52 AM UTC-8, Look165 wrote:

The ones you have at home.

A typical American home may have:
- Shaded pole motors on desk fans and circulating air for the refrigerator. (I was really upset when I found the old broken dishwasher in my parents' home had a giant shaded pole motor for the water pump.)
- Universal motors for dough mixers, blenders, drills and circular saws
- 3-phase motors driven by control electronics for washing machines
- brushless motors for remote-controlled model aircraft, and possibly for modern appliances

Michael

 

On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 09:52:03 -0800 (PST), mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 9:23:52 AM UTC-8, Look165 wrote:
The ones you have at home.


A typical American home may have:
- Shaded pole motors on desk fans and circulating air for the refrigerator. (I was really upset when I found the old broken dishwasher in my parents' home had a giant shaded pole motor for the water pump.)
- Universal motors for dough mixers, blenders, drills and circular saws
- 3-phase motors driven by control electronics for washing machines
- brushless motors for remote-controlled model aircraft, and possibly for modern appliances

Michael

The reason for the big shaded pole pump motor is because they draw
pretty much the same current when stalled as when running. So if the
design allows sufficient cooling without a fan then if the pump motor
is stalled with food debris or a fork or something it won't burn up.
Granted, there are other ways to deal with stalled motors but the
shaded pole solution is simple and cheap. Except that you pay more for
the power to run the motor. This can be a wash though, so to speak.
Just save all your dirty dishes until the weather gets cold when the
extra heat from the pump motor will warm your house. Actually, I
supose a clever design would use the heat from the pump motor to help
warm the washing water.
Eric

 

[Look165]

I wonder how a fork can finish in the pump !

etpm@whidbey.com a Êcrit le 10/01/2019 à 23:53 :

On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 09:52:03 -0800 (PST), mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 9:23:52 AM UTC-8, Look165 wrote:
The ones you have at home.

A typical American home may have:
- Shaded pole motors on desk fans and circulating air for the refrigerator. (I was really upset when I found the old broken dishwasher in my parents' home had a giant shaded pole motor for the water pump.)
- Universal motors for dough mixers, blenders, drills and circular saws
- 3-phase motors driven by control electronics for washing machines
- brushless motors for remote-controlled model aircraft, and possibly for modern appliances

Michael

The reason for the big shaded pole pump motor is because they draw
pretty much the same current when stalled as when running. So if the
design allows sufficient cooling without a fan then if the pump motor
is stalled with food debris or a fork or something it won't burn up.
Granted, there are other ways to deal with stalled motors but the
shaded pole solution is simple and cheap. Except that you pay more for
the power to run the motor. This can be a wash though, so to speak.
Just save all your dirty dishes until the weather gets cold when the
extra heat from the pump motor will warm your house. Actually, I
supose a clever design would use the heat from the pump motor to help
warm the washing water.
Eric

 

[default]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 09:52:03 -0800 (PST), mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 9:23:52 AM UTC-8, Look165 wrote:
The ones you have at home.


A typical American home may have:
- Shaded pole motors on desk fans and circulating air for the refrigerator. (I was really upset when I found the old broken dishwasher in my parents' home had a giant shaded pole motor for the water pump.)
- Universal motors for dough mixers, blenders, drills and circular saws
- 3-phase motors driven by control electronics for washing machines
- brushless motors for remote-controlled model aircraft, and possibly for modern appliances

Michael

Lots of air conditioners are moving to speed controlled three phase
compressor motors these days. They've been in use for large
commercial AC's for awhile now, and plenty of the newer heat pumps use
them. There's at least one window unit that uses a VFD and three
phase motor.

 

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 5:02:12 PM UTC-8, default wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 09:52:03 -0800 (PST), mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 9:23:52 AM UTC-8, Look165 wrote:
The ones you have at home.


A typical American home may have:
- Shaded pole motors on desk fans and circulating air for the refrigerator. (I was really upset when I found the old broken dishwasher in my parents' home had a giant shaded pole motor for the water pump.)
- Universal motors for dough mixers, blenders, drills and circular saws
- 3-phase motors driven by control electronics for washing machines
- brushless motors for remote-controlled model aircraft, and possibly for modern appliances

Michael

Lots of air conditioners are moving to speed controlled three phase
compressor motors these days. They've been in use for large
commercial AC's for awhile now, and plenty of the newer heat pumps use
them. There's at least one window unit that uses a VFD and three
phase motor.

Oh that's a surprise! Are they fairly close in efficiency to the electronically commutated / brushless motors then?

Are the 3-phase motors run in open-loop, or do they require precise feedback control like the brushless motors need?

Window A/C unit?! Which???

Thanks,

Michael

 

[danny burstein]

In <3iqf3ehsptonbtlf27vd0nqqptq6dd2um3@4ax.com> default <default@defaulter.net> writes:

Lots of air conditioners are moving to speed controlled three phase
compressor motors these days. They've been in use for large
commercial AC's for awhile now, and plenty of the newer heat pumps use
them. There's at least one window unit that uses a VFD and three
phase motor.

Dunno about it being three phase, but here you go:

http://www.lg.com/us/air-conditioners/lg-LW1517IVSM



--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

 

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 6:41:12 PM UTC-8, danny burstein wrote:

In <3iqf3ehsptonbtlf27vd0nqqptq6dd2um3@4ax.com> default <default@defaulter.net> writes:

Lots of air conditioners are moving to speed controlled three phase
compressor motors these days. They've been in use for large
commercial AC's for awhile now, and plenty of the newer heat pumps use
them. There's at least one window unit that uses a VFD and three
phase motor.

Dunno about it being three phase, but here you go:

http://www.lg.com/us/air-conditioners/lg-LW1517IVSM

Oh neato! Even better; it's Brushless DC (BLDC)!

"... thanks to LG's unique BLDC motor and dual inverter compressor..."

 

[danny burstein]

In <ec417b1c-18c8-4f85-8284-662e712c23b1@googlegroups.com> mrdarrett@gmail.com writes:

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 6:41:12 PM UTC-8, danny burstein wrote:
In <3iqf3ehsptonbtlf27vd0nqqptq6dd2um3@4ax.com> default <default@defaulter.net> writes:

Lots of air conditioners are moving to speed controlled three phase
compressor motors these days. They've been in use for large
commercial AC's for awhile now, and plenty of the newer heat pumps use
them. There's at least one window unit that uses a VFD and three
phase motor.

Dunno about it being three phase, but here you go:

http://www.lg.com/us/air-conditioners/lg-LW1517IVSM

Oh neato! Even better; it's Brushless DC (BLDC)!

"... thanks to LG's unique BLDC motor and dual inverter compressor..."

Annoyingly, though, Lucky Goldstar is only offering a couple
of models in the US, with ratings in the 14,000 BTU range.

I wrote to them asking if they'd please consider selling
smaller, like 5 to 10,000 ones. Not at this time...


--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

 

[default]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 18:14:57 -0800 (PST), mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 5:02:12 PM UTC-8, default wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 09:52:03 -0800 (PST), mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 9:23:52 AM UTC-8, Look165 wrote:
The ones you have at home.


A typical American home may have:
- Shaded pole motors on desk fans and circulating air for the refrigerator. (I was really upset when I found the old broken dishwasher in my parents' home had a giant shaded pole motor for the water pump.)
- Universal motors for dough mixers, blenders, drills and circular saws
- 3-phase motors driven by control electronics for washing machines
- brushless motors for remote-controlled model aircraft, and possibly for modern appliances

Michael

Lots of air conditioners are moving to speed controlled three phase
compressor motors these days. They've been in use for large
commercial AC's for awhile now, and plenty of the newer heat pumps use
them. There's at least one window unit that uses a VFD and three
phase motor.


Oh that's a surprise! Are they fairly close in efficiency to the electronically commutated / brushless motors then?

I doubt the motors are any more efficient than a standard 3 phase
doing the same amount of work. BUT... they throttle back when you
don't need cooling instead of cycling on and off.

I put in a "mini-split" with an inverter (what the AC folks call their
VFD type products) My power bill was lower than no AC and relying on
fans for cooling. (I suspect some of that savings was due to the
refer running much less due to the lower humidity in the house)

Are the 3-phase motors run in open-loop, or do they require precise feedback control like the brushless motors need?

They have feedback of course. Dependent on temperature. I have a
volt/ammeter on my mini-split. Hot summer day with a hot house I turn
on the 18,000 BTU AC and the current will hit 8-9 amps (250 volts
single phase). After it runs for a time the current drops as it
approaches the set-point until it is chugging along with only ~2 amps
or less and on really hot days it runs continuously at 2 amps, and
begins cycling on and off if it has more capacity than it needs to
satisfy the set-point.

Window A/C unit?! Which???

LG makes them:

LW1517IVSM
14,000 BTU

Thanks,

Michael

 

[default]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 22:04:29 -0800 (PST), mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 6:41:12 PM UTC-8, danny burstein wrote:
In <3iqf3ehsptonbtlf27vd0nqqptq6dd2um3@4ax.com> default <default@defaulter.net> writes:

Lots of air conditioners are moving to speed controlled three phase
compressor motors these days. They've been in use for large
commercial AC's for awhile now, and plenty of the newer heat pumps use
them. There's at least one window unit that uses a VFD and three
phase motor.

Dunno about it being three phase, but here you go:

http://www.lg.com/us/air-conditioners/lg-LW1517IVSM


Oh neato! Even better; it's Brushless DC (BLDC)!

"... thanks to LG's unique BLDC motor and dual inverter compressor..."

I installed my own inverter (VFD 3-ph) "mini-split" in 2002. I saw
them in an episode of "This Old House" (or something like that) and
figured I could DIY the installation. I did call an AC contractor but
back then they didn't want to touch it and denigrated the whole idea
and told me how inferior they were. (the same guys are selling them
and promoting them today)

My 18,000 BTU cost me $1,300 with all the parts except for the
electrical disconnect and wiring, and I did need to buy some metric
wrenches and a flaring tool. It is a heat-pump so I just disconnected
the base-board electrical heater and ran the line outside to a
disconnect and didn't run new wiring to the breaker panel. (they say
it needs 20 amp service but I've never seen it go over 10 amps, and it
is soft-start)

I built a small deck out some scraps of treated lumber to keep it off
the ground, but they sell brackets so you can mount the compressor on
the side of the house or put in on a small slab. I did not pump down
the system with a vacuum (the pump and gauges would have cost $350).
Instead I purged it with the pre-charged gas that was already in the
compressor unit - let it leak for a few seconds until the refrigerant
displaced the air in the lines. (they claim you need a vacuum pump in
the ads, but had instructions for purging in the literature that
shipped with it) It has been working like a champ for ~16 years now
so I guess purging works.

I did all the work myself and it took me a few days to finish the job
but I'm tickled with the results. (it is running right now to warm
the room to 65 - outside is 30 current is down to 2 amps - it does
have to cycle on and off since the ambient and outside coils are below
freezing and it needs to defrost from time to time)

I did have trouble flaring the copper tubes. I bought the flaring
tool at an auto parts store and had flared tubes before without
problems, but the tubing that shipped with the unit was not dead-soft
and tended to tear. A little silicone grease on the point of the
flaring tool fixed that. (1/4" copper for high pressure liquid
refrigerant and 1/2" gas return)

My wife has her own house and since she saw my installation she wanted
one too. She got 2 completely independent units (one compressor can
serve multiple inside units) One of hers is 10,000 and the other
12,000 BTUh. She paid $4,000 for the units with professional
installation including the electrical work and wiring. Her
compressors are mounted on brackets on the brickwork of her house.
Her units are newer and when they are running they are quiet - can't
tell they are on. Mine has a pretty aggressive fan and that makes
some noise, but then my system cools/heats the house faster than hers
does.

Now I want an LG inverter style for my bedroom window unit.

 

[default]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 14:21:27 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
<dannyb@panix.com> wrote:

In <ec417b1c-18c8-4f85-8284-662e712c23b1@googlegroups.com> mrdarrett@gmail.com writes:

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 6:41:12 PM UTC-8, danny burstein wrote:
In <3iqf3ehsptonbtlf27vd0nqqptq6dd2um3@4ax.com> default <default@defaulter.net> writes:

Lots of air conditioners are moving to speed controlled three phase
compressor motors these days. They've been in use for large
commercial AC's for awhile now, and plenty of the newer heat pumps use
them. There's at least one window unit that uses a VFD and three
phase motor.

Dunno about it being three phase, but here you go:

http://www.lg.com/us/air-conditioners/lg-LW1517IVSM

Oh neato! Even better; it's Brushless DC (BLDC)!

"... thanks to LG's unique BLDC motor and dual inverter compressor..."

Annoyingly, though, Lucky Goldstar is only offering a couple
of models in the US, with ratings in the 14,000 BTU range.

I wrote to them asking if they'd please consider selling
smaller, like 5 to 10,000 ones. Not at this time...

Since they do run the compressor slower as cooling needs are met, you
probably shouldn't look at an inverter AC the same as you would a
standard AC. If you need 10,000 BTU a 14,000 btu will throttle back
to around 20% of the power a 14K would require and that would still be
less than the 10K would use.

Of course if 5K (does anyone make one that small?) does the trick, 14K
would be way over-kill.

With standard AC units the best savings meant using the smallest AC
that would do the job. Presumably you could live with the longer time
to cool-down... and maybe there'd be a couple of days each year when
the temp/humidity was so high that it might not keep up with your
needs. These inverter type units are a game-changer in that respect.
And they soft-start, so you aren't pulling 40 amps to get the
compressor turning over from a dead stop.

 

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 00:00:56 +0100, Look165 <look165@numericable.fr>
wrote:

>I wonder how a fork can finish in the pump !
Some dishwashers have the pump impeller under a screen that can come
loose which then allows foreign objects to contact the inpeller.
Eric

etpm@whidbey.com a écrit le 10/01/2019 ŕ 23:53 :
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 09:52:03 -0800 (PST), mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 9:23:52 AM UTC-8, Look165 wrote:
The ones you have at home.

A typical American home may have:
- Shaded pole motors on desk fans and circulating air for the refrigerator. (I was really upset when I found the old broken dishwasher in my parents' home had a giant shaded pole motor for the water pump.)
- Universal motors for dough mixers, blenders, drills and circular saws
- 3-phase motors driven by control electronics for washing machines
- brushless motors for remote-controlled model aircraft, and possibly for modern appliances

Michael

The reason for the big shaded pole pump motor is because they draw
pretty much the same current when stalled as when running. So if the
design allows sufficient cooling without a fan then if the pump motor
is stalled with food debris or a fork or something it won't burn up.
Granted, there are other ways to deal with stalled motors but the
shaded pole solution is simple and cheap. Except that you pay more for
the power to run the motor. This can be a wash though, so to speak.
Just save all your dirty dishes until the weather gets cold when the
extra heat from the pump motor will warm your house. Actually, I
supose a clever design would use the heat from the pump motor to help
warm the washing water.
Eric