EE rant...

server · Jan 13, 2023

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Anthony William Sloman · Jan 13, 2023

On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 6:17:06 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 2 Jan 2023 11:00:52 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:
On 1/1/23 11:08 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sun, 01 Jan 2023 20:04:49 -0800) it happened John Larkin
jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote in
mrl4rhhtkup3sn9t4...@4ax.com>:

https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/?td=rt-9cp

I\'ve been thinking for some time now that EE schools don\'t turn out
people who like electricity, but maker culture might.

It\'s almost always been that way. Except in the last century it was ham
radio. I learned way more useful stuff that way that in years at the
university.

I think that electrical instincts should be acquired young.

That\'s nonsense . Instincts are acquired, they are innate.

\"stereotyped, apparently unlearned, genetically determined behaviour pattern.\"

> Then the college courses add the theory. That\'s why the lego/maker/Raspberry Pi thing is interesting.

John Larkin has any number of strange ideas on how university education works. The probably reflects the fact that it didn\'t work for him.

In the EE school I was in it was known that only \'hobbyists\' would pass the final exams.

The dropout in the first year was very very very high.

It usually is, particularly at rubbish universities that don\'t attract gifted kids.

At my university the drop-out rate (start to degree) was at times 83%.

Too many kids selected an EE degree based on some high school counselor\'s advice, or dreams of a tidy income. Too late.

The Australian university drop out rate in the 1960\'s was about 40%. 30% of students got through in minimum time. The remaning 40% repeated a year or switched courses.
A high prestige course like medicine did better. At Melbourne they took in 200 students a a year (out of 800 applicants). 95 of the first 100 would graduate, and about 60 of the second 100.

> >> For the 30 or so in the first year, I was 1 of the 4 people at the final graduation party in the local pub.

Bizarre.

<snipped nonsense>

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Dan Purgert · Jan 13, 2023

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On 2023-01-05, Don Y wrote:

On 1/5/2023 5:07 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
[...]
On the other hand; I already have a (weak) grasp of what a (linear?)
power-supply needs to have -- rectifier -> smoothing caps -> (I think) a
handful of transistors & resistors to get the desired voltage -> output
capacitor(s). And this (hopefully) gets me a little more understanding
of using transistors as more than just switches ... well, maybe.

Yes, but, at the end of the day, you\'re reinventing something that
a gazillion manufacturers sell in a bazillion different varieties
for less money than the postage on the parts you\'ll order to roll
your own.

Yep. And at the end of the day, when I memorized my 1-12 times tables in
grade school \"because you won\'t always have a calculator in your
pocket!\" ...

Again, this is more of a \"homework project(tm)\". Yeah, it\'s been done a
million times; yeah, I could just buy a linear regulator IC ...

If you have a \'scope, it can be a good exercise -- if only to let you
see how the \"signal\" changes as it moves through the circuit. And,
how it reacts to differing loads (e.g., see the ripple on the input
filter increase when the filter is having to supply a larger load
reflected through the regulator. What happens if you change the value
of the filter? Or, use a half-wave rectifier?)

That\'s more like where my thought process was going with this \"homework
project\". Fiddle with it, see what happens \"inside\" an LM338 (etc),
and, well, hopefully learn a thing or two. While it\'s not a scope, I
have one of those USB logic-analyzers that \"can\" do analog readings as
well, so we\'ll see how it works out.

Worst case, I have a powersupply that I\'m less concerned about blowing a
part inside, because, well, I have the schematic and the parts and ...

[I don\'t mean to discourage you. Rather, hoping you find something
to tackle that leads to an \"aha\" moment -- which tends to cause you to
crave more such moments.]

Yes, I am craving \"aha-moments\" with analog. It\'s pure wizardry seeing
a couple long wires (plus some other components) pull enough energy out
of thin air, that I can listen to a broadcast ...

Programming micros is fun enough too; but I\'m finding I\'m pulling away
from C, and into Assembly, just for the chance at those same \"aha
moments\".

[...]
That\'s why I suggested looking at the problem differently. Instead
of buying something that someone else has claimed is a \"moisture sensor\",
think about how moisture affects things and how those effects might be
detected.

Mhm, right now I\'m using the module\'s circuit (plus that blog that tore
it apart) as that jumping off point.

At the moment, I know it\'s a 555 running in astable mode, with the
\"sensor\" part being a pair of traces on the PCB acting as a capacitor.
Best I can figure at the moment (and not having understood that blog I\'m
reading... or the full implications of the 555 datasheet), those
\"capacitor-of-pcb-traces\" will potentially vary the 555\'s duty cycle,
which means the cap on the output will have more time to bleed through
its resistor... Or maybe once I get the understanding, I\'ll see that the
\"sensor\" part is actually on the output, rather than the input...

For example, *hair* stretches when wet. Can you conceive of a way to
sense this elasticity?

Could probably do something with a load cell ... soak the hair, stretch
it in the cell (but cell still reads zero), as it dries, the cell will
deflect.

Water is sensed in fuels by noting changes in conductivity.

Yeah, I have the feeling a resistive sensor would corrode in no time
flat...

[...]
So, back to this moisture sensor project. As you said, there are a
billion different \"module\" things out there, with half again as many
sloppily written \"tutorials\" for their use (bleh).

Thankfully, I was pointed to one blog (whose name escapes me at the
moment, and I can\'t find it in my browser history after a quick search,
so I must\'ve bookmarked it on the currently dead tablet...), where they
actually took a dive into the module and showed what it did, and how
(and a good bit of it sailed over my head -- but there were so many
links to references).

I found the use of chilled mirrors to sense dewpoint to be an \"aha\"
moment. Almost comical.

yay, getting out of a hot shower

[...]
I\'ve found that people are less interested in the more technical
devices I can show them (potential clients, friends, etc.). But,
the \"novelty\" items get lots of attention. Perhaps because they
are easier to relate to than something overly technical (folks
don\'t want to appear ignorant if they don\'t understand how something
works or its purpose). Or, maybe they just appreciate the whimsy!?

Indeed. Might as well be magic

Dan Purgert · Jan 13, 2023

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Hash: SHA512

On 2023-01-05, Don Y wrote:

On 1/5/2023 5:07 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
[...]
On the other hand; I already have a (weak) grasp of what a (linear?)
power-supply needs to have -- rectifier -> smoothing caps -> (I think) a
handful of transistors & resistors to get the desired voltage -> output
capacitor(s). And this (hopefully) gets me a little more understanding
of using transistors as more than just switches ... well, maybe.

Yes, but, at the end of the day, you\'re reinventing something that
a gazillion manufacturers sell in a bazillion different varieties
for less money than the postage on the parts you\'ll order to roll
your own.

Yep. And at the end of the day, when I memorized my 1-12 times tables in
grade school \"because you won\'t always have a calculator in your
pocket!\" ...

Again, this is more of a \"homework project(tm)\". Yeah, it\'s been done a
million times; yeah, I could just buy a linear regulator IC ...

If you have a \'scope, it can be a good exercise -- if only to let you
see how the \"signal\" changes as it moves through the circuit. And,
how it reacts to differing loads (e.g., see the ripple on the input
filter increase when the filter is having to supply a larger load
reflected through the regulator. What happens if you change the value
of the filter? Or, use a half-wave rectifier?)

That\'s more like where my thought process was going with this \"homework
project\". Fiddle with it, see what happens \"inside\" an LM338 (etc),
and, well, hopefully learn a thing or two. While it\'s not a scope, I
have one of those USB logic-analyzers that \"can\" do analog readings as
well, so we\'ll see how it works out.

Worst case, I have a powersupply that I\'m less concerned about blowing a
part inside, because, well, I have the schematic and the parts and ...

[I don\'t mean to discourage you. Rather, hoping you find something
to tackle that leads to an \"aha\" moment -- which tends to cause you to
crave more such moments.]

Yes, I am craving \"aha-moments\" with analog. It\'s pure wizardry seeing
a couple long wires (plus some other components) pull enough energy out
of thin air, that I can listen to a broadcast ...

Programming micros is fun enough too; but I\'m finding I\'m pulling away
from C, and into Assembly, just for the chance at those same \"aha
moments\".

[...]
That\'s why I suggested looking at the problem differently. Instead
of buying something that someone else has claimed is a \"moisture sensor\",
think about how moisture affects things and how those effects might be
detected.

Mhm, right now I\'m using the module\'s circuit (plus that blog that tore
it apart) as that jumping off point.

At the moment, I know it\'s a 555 running in astable mode, with the
\"sensor\" part being a pair of traces on the PCB acting as a capacitor.
Best I can figure at the moment (and not having understood that blog I\'m
reading... or the full implications of the 555 datasheet), those
\"capacitor-of-pcb-traces\" will potentially vary the 555\'s duty cycle,
which means the cap on the output will have more time to bleed through
its resistor... Or maybe once I get the understanding, I\'ll see that the
\"sensor\" part is actually on the output, rather than the input...

For example, *hair* stretches when wet. Can you conceive of a way to
sense this elasticity?

Could probably do something with a load cell ... soak the hair, stretch
it in the cell (but cell still reads zero), as it dries, the cell will
deflect.

Water is sensed in fuels by noting changes in conductivity.

Yeah, I have the feeling a resistive sensor would corrode in no time
flat...

[...]
So, back to this moisture sensor project. As you said, there are a
billion different \"module\" things out there, with half again as many
sloppily written \"tutorials\" for their use (bleh).

Thankfully, I was pointed to one blog (whose name escapes me at the
moment, and I can\'t find it in my browser history after a quick search,
so I must\'ve bookmarked it on the currently dead tablet...), where they
actually took a dive into the module and showed what it did, and how
(and a good bit of it sailed over my head -- but there were so many
links to references).

I found the use of chilled mirrors to sense dewpoint to be an \"aha\"
moment. Almost comical.

yay, getting out of a hot shower

[...]
I\'ve found that people are less interested in the more technical
devices I can show them (potential clients, friends, etc.). But,
the \"novelty\" items get lots of attention. Perhaps because they
are easier to relate to than something overly technical (folks
don\'t want to appear ignorant if they don\'t understand how something
works or its purpose). Or, maybe they just appreciate the whimsy!?

Indeed. Might as well be magic

Dan Purgert · Jan 13, 2023

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 2023-01-05, Don Y wrote:

On 1/5/2023 5:07 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
[...]
On the other hand; I already have a (weak) grasp of what a (linear?)
power-supply needs to have -- rectifier -> smoothing caps -> (I think) a
handful of transistors & resistors to get the desired voltage -> output
capacitor(s). And this (hopefully) gets me a little more understanding
of using transistors as more than just switches ... well, maybe.

Yes, but, at the end of the day, you\'re reinventing something that
a gazillion manufacturers sell in a bazillion different varieties
for less money than the postage on the parts you\'ll order to roll
your own.

Yep. And at the end of the day, when I memorized my 1-12 times tables in
grade school \"because you won\'t always have a calculator in your
pocket!\" ...

Again, this is more of a \"homework project(tm)\". Yeah, it\'s been done a
million times; yeah, I could just buy a linear regulator IC ...

If you have a \'scope, it can be a good exercise -- if only to let you
see how the \"signal\" changes as it moves through the circuit. And,
how it reacts to differing loads (e.g., see the ripple on the input
filter increase when the filter is having to supply a larger load
reflected through the regulator. What happens if you change the value
of the filter? Or, use a half-wave rectifier?)

That\'s more like where my thought process was going with this \"homework
project\". Fiddle with it, see what happens \"inside\" an LM338 (etc),
and, well, hopefully learn a thing or two. While it\'s not a scope, I
have one of those USB logic-analyzers that \"can\" do analog readings as
well, so we\'ll see how it works out.

Worst case, I have a powersupply that I\'m less concerned about blowing a
part inside, because, well, I have the schematic and the parts and ...

[I don\'t mean to discourage you. Rather, hoping you find something
to tackle that leads to an \"aha\" moment -- which tends to cause you to
crave more such moments.]

Yes, I am craving \"aha-moments\" with analog. It\'s pure wizardry seeing
a couple long wires (plus some other components) pull enough energy out
of thin air, that I can listen to a broadcast ...

Programming micros is fun enough too; but I\'m finding I\'m pulling away
from C, and into Assembly, just for the chance at those same \"aha
moments\".

[...]
That\'s why I suggested looking at the problem differently. Instead
of buying something that someone else has claimed is a \"moisture sensor\",
think about how moisture affects things and how those effects might be
detected.

Mhm, right now I\'m using the module\'s circuit (plus that blog that tore
it apart) as that jumping off point.

At the moment, I know it\'s a 555 running in astable mode, with the
\"sensor\" part being a pair of traces on the PCB acting as a capacitor.
Best I can figure at the moment (and not having understood that blog I\'m
reading... or the full implications of the 555 datasheet), those
\"capacitor-of-pcb-traces\" will potentially vary the 555\'s duty cycle,
which means the cap on the output will have more time to bleed through
its resistor... Or maybe once I get the understanding, I\'ll see that the
\"sensor\" part is actually on the output, rather than the input...

For example, *hair* stretches when wet. Can you conceive of a way to
sense this elasticity?

Could probably do something with a load cell ... soak the hair, stretch
it in the cell (but cell still reads zero), as it dries, the cell will
deflect.

Water is sensed in fuels by noting changes in conductivity.

Yeah, I have the feeling a resistive sensor would corrode in no time
flat...

[...]
So, back to this moisture sensor project. As you said, there are a
billion different \"module\" things out there, with half again as many
sloppily written \"tutorials\" for their use (bleh).

Thankfully, I was pointed to one blog (whose name escapes me at the
moment, and I can\'t find it in my browser history after a quick search,
so I must\'ve bookmarked it on the currently dead tablet...), where they
actually took a dive into the module and showed what it did, and how
(and a good bit of it sailed over my head -- but there were so many
links to references).

I found the use of chilled mirrors to sense dewpoint to be an \"aha\"
moment. Almost comical.

yay, getting out of a hot shower

[...]
I\'ve found that people are less interested in the more technical
devices I can show them (potential clients, friends, etc.). But,
the \"novelty\" items get lots of attention. Perhaps because they
are easier to relate to than something overly technical (folks
don\'t want to appear ignorant if they don\'t understand how something
works or its purpose). Or, maybe they just appreciate the whimsy!?

Indeed. Might as well be magic

Clive Arthur · Jan 13, 2023

On 03/01/2023 15:52, John Larkin wrote:

<snip>

> Imagine being a cow and eating grass all day.

I imagine that would be luxury for many cows, particularly in the US and
increasingly so here.

--
Cheers
Clive

Clive Arthur · Jan 13, 2023

On 03/01/2023 15:52, John Larkin wrote:

<snip>

> Imagine being a cow and eating grass all day.

I imagine that would be luxury for many cows, particularly in the US and
increasingly so here.

--
Cheers
Clive

Clive Arthur · Jan 13, 2023

On 03/01/2023 15:52, John Larkin wrote:

<snip>

> Imagine being a cow and eating grass all day.

I imagine that would be luxury for many cows, particularly in the US and
increasingly so here.

--
Cheers
Clive

Dan Purgert · Jan 13, 2023

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Hash: SHA512

On 2023-01-04, Don Y wrote:

On 1/4/2023 8:06 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-01-03, Don Y wrote:
On 1/3/2023 9:42 AM, bitrex wrote:
And then people complain the US doesn\'t make electronics anymore. Challenging
programs with a high washout rate AND it doesn\'t pay too good? Wow hard to
believe everyone isn\'t jumping on that one, lol

Nowadays, even \"makers\" don\'t *make* electronics. They just buy
modules and write some code. Modern packages are just too tedious
for hobbyists; you want successes to encourage your efforts, not
failures.

The no-lead stuff and/or exposed bottom pad stuff is certainly difficult
to handle... but even 0402 is \"doable\" with naught more than a decent
magnifying glass (e.g. Optivisors)

I use a lot of QFN32 and SOT23-6 packages. In a pinch, I can prototype
with them without a template (using a syringe-based paste dispenser and
a Leister).

But, that\'s not really \"engineering\". Does an architect dig the hole for
foundation of the building he\'s designing? A chef raise the produce
he\'ll use in the meals he prepares?

I\'m not really \"an engineer\" either... more just some mook who finds
this stuff fascinating

[...]
\"Oh, you built a power supply! How impressive! Does it
*do* anything?\"

... I kinda need to at some point, just to say I did it... and a radio,
and ...

I don\'t waste time pursuing things that I know I can do, \"but for
the time to do them\". Instead, I want challenges -- things where I
am *confident* but not _sure_ that I can win.

I don\'t know if I actually _can_ design a power supply or a radio or any
of that stuff. But there are a lot of examples out there, so I can
learn from what other people have done.

Like right now I have a dumb little project idea for a moisture sensor
for my garden. Sure, I _CAN_ just go to amazon and buy one of 10
billion choices for a premade thing that needs probably 4 wires and just
plugs into a microcontroller ... but I\'m not going to LEARN anything
there...

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--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

Dan Purgert · Jan 13, 2023

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Hash: SHA512

On 2023-01-04, Don Y wrote:

On 1/4/2023 8:06 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-01-03, Don Y wrote:
On 1/3/2023 9:42 AM, bitrex wrote:
And then people complain the US doesn\'t make electronics anymore. Challenging
programs with a high washout rate AND it doesn\'t pay too good? Wow hard to
believe everyone isn\'t jumping on that one, lol

Nowadays, even \"makers\" don\'t *make* electronics. They just buy
modules and write some code. Modern packages are just too tedious
for hobbyists; you want successes to encourage your efforts, not
failures.

The no-lead stuff and/or exposed bottom pad stuff is certainly difficult
to handle... but even 0402 is \"doable\" with naught more than a decent
magnifying glass (e.g. Optivisors)

I use a lot of QFN32 and SOT23-6 packages. In a pinch, I can prototype
with them without a template (using a syringe-based paste dispenser and
a Leister).

But, that\'s not really \"engineering\". Does an architect dig the hole for
foundation of the building he\'s designing? A chef raise the produce
he\'ll use in the meals he prepares?

I\'m not really \"an engineer\" either... more just some mook who finds
this stuff fascinating

[...]
\"Oh, you built a power supply! How impressive! Does it
*do* anything?\"

... I kinda need to at some point, just to say I did it... and a radio,
and ...

I don\'t waste time pursuing things that I know I can do, \"but for
the time to do them\". Instead, I want challenges -- things where I
am *confident* but not _sure_ that I can win.

I don\'t know if I actually _can_ design a power supply or a radio or any
of that stuff. But there are a lot of examples out there, so I can
learn from what other people have done.

Like right now I have a dumb little project idea for a moisture sensor
for my garden. Sure, I _CAN_ just go to amazon and buy one of 10
billion choices for a premade thing that needs probably 4 wires and just
plugs into a microcontroller ... but I\'m not going to LEARN anything
there...

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--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

Dan Purgert · Jan 13, 2023

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 2023-01-04, Don Y wrote:

On 1/4/2023 8:06 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
On 2023-01-03, Don Y wrote:
On 1/3/2023 9:42 AM, bitrex wrote:
And then people complain the US doesn\'t make electronics anymore. Challenging
programs with a high washout rate AND it doesn\'t pay too good? Wow hard to
believe everyone isn\'t jumping on that one, lol

Nowadays, even \"makers\" don\'t *make* electronics. They just buy
modules and write some code. Modern packages are just too tedious
for hobbyists; you want successes to encourage your efforts, not
failures.

The no-lead stuff and/or exposed bottom pad stuff is certainly difficult
to handle... but even 0402 is \"doable\" with naught more than a decent
magnifying glass (e.g. Optivisors)

I use a lot of QFN32 and SOT23-6 packages. In a pinch, I can prototype
with them without a template (using a syringe-based paste dispenser and
a Leister).

But, that\'s not really \"engineering\". Does an architect dig the hole for
foundation of the building he\'s designing? A chef raise the produce
he\'ll use in the meals he prepares?

I\'m not really \"an engineer\" either... more just some mook who finds
this stuff fascinating

[...]
\"Oh, you built a power supply! How impressive! Does it
*do* anything?\"

... I kinda need to at some point, just to say I did it... and a radio,
and ...

I don\'t waste time pursuing things that I know I can do, \"but for
the time to do them\". Instead, I want challenges -- things where I
am *confident* but not _sure_ that I can win.

I don\'t know if I actually _can_ design a power supply or a radio or any
of that stuff. But there are a lot of examples out there, so I can
learn from what other people have done.

Like right now I have a dumb little project idea for a moisture sensor
for my garden. Sure, I _CAN_ just go to amazon and buy one of 10
billion choices for a premade thing that needs probably 4 wires and just
plugs into a microcontroller ... but I\'m not going to LEARN anything
there...

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--
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

Anthony William Sloman · Jan 13, 2023

On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:56:18 PM UTC+11, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Jan 2023 01:48:13 -0800 (PST)) it happened Anthony
William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote in
675cb47c-830c-41e5...@googlegroups.com>:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 7:04:22 PM UTC+11, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 5 Jan 2023 13:41:11 -0800) it happened Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in
k1oufn...@mid.individual.net>:
On 1/4/23 11:03 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Jan 2023 10:43:20 -0800) it happened Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in
k1lvma...@mid.individual.net>:
On 1/3/23 8:07 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 03 Jan 2023 06:30:16 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

snip

What\'s next for TV? Nothing, IMHO. It had it\'s day and the world is
moving on. Other than the evening news the last time I really watched TV
was ... well ... heck, it\'s so many years ago that I can\'t even remember.

Oh no!
I have a steerable satellite dish and get a thousand or so free to air channels
So many satellites I can point to (see top page) here:
https://kingofsat.net/
News and opinions from all over the world, movies in HD... science (NASA TV for example)
many great info channels in German (ZDF-info, Kabeleins-info, N24docu etc
It is good to see the viewpoints from other countries to get a grip on the truth

Jan imagines that he has got some kind of grip on some kind of truth.

It is a trifle comic.

Today I was watching NASA TV on Hotbird 13 East satellite
It was about carbon nano tubes, they try to make electrical cables out of those
to save weight in planes and spacecraft.
Conductivity of those spun cables is not yet as good as copper,
but strength is very good, they were winding those around tanks (fuel containers etc)
to increase the strength, doing break tests.

Sounds like fun.

Interviews with the people doing the development, fascinating, a look in the labs.
Microchip sensors that you can connect to your smartphone they did work on too.
Smithsonian channel seems to have gone black since Jan 1, maybe changed sat or transponder...
Study never ends, you being brain dead and just posting others know nothing is something nobody will learn from, ever.

You may be \"studying\" but there\'s not a sign of you learning anything.
You may not like this observation about you, and Flyugu and John Larkin resent much the same observations for much the same reason.

I\'m much more tolerant of people who know more, and are open to the idea that they occasionally get stuff wrong.

> Your own song is so loud you could not hear anybody else if you even had a hearing aid like a TV.

That\'s a bizarre conceit. For one thing, I am not pushing \"my own song\" what ever that might be, but rather the more or less agreed concensus - not potty ideas like the Le Sage theory of gravity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Sage%27s_theory_of_gravitation

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Anthony William Sloman · Jan 13, 2023

On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:56:18 PM UTC+11, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Jan 2023 01:48:13 -0800 (PST)) it happened Anthony
William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote in
675cb47c-830c-41e5...@googlegroups.com>:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 7:04:22 PM UTC+11, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 5 Jan 2023 13:41:11 -0800) it happened Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in
k1oufn...@mid.individual.net>:
On 1/4/23 11:03 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Jan 2023 10:43:20 -0800) it happened Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in
k1lvma...@mid.individual.net>:
On 1/3/23 8:07 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 03 Jan 2023 06:30:16 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

snip

What\'s next for TV? Nothing, IMHO. It had it\'s day and the world is
moving on. Other than the evening news the last time I really watched TV
was ... well ... heck, it\'s so many years ago that I can\'t even remember.

Oh no!
I have a steerable satellite dish and get a thousand or so free to air channels
So many satellites I can point to (see top page) here:
https://kingofsat.net/
News and opinions from all over the world, movies in HD... science (NASA TV for example)
many great info channels in German (ZDF-info, Kabeleins-info, N24docu etc
It is good to see the viewpoints from other countries to get a grip on the truth

Jan imagines that he has got some kind of grip on some kind of truth.

It is a trifle comic.

Today I was watching NASA TV on Hotbird 13 East satellite
It was about carbon nano tubes, they try to make electrical cables out of those
to save weight in planes and spacecraft.
Conductivity of those spun cables is not yet as good as copper,
but strength is very good, they were winding those around tanks (fuel containers etc)
to increase the strength, doing break tests.

Sounds like fun.

Interviews with the people doing the development, fascinating, a look in the labs.
Microchip sensors that you can connect to your smartphone they did work on too.
Smithsonian channel seems to have gone black since Jan 1, maybe changed sat or transponder...
Study never ends, you being brain dead and just posting others know nothing is something nobody will learn from, ever.

You may be \"studying\" but there\'s not a sign of you learning anything.
You may not like this observation about you, and Flyugu and John Larkin resent much the same observations for much the same reason.

I\'m much more tolerant of people who know more, and are open to the idea that they occasionally get stuff wrong.

> Your own song is so loud you could not hear anybody else if you even had a hearing aid like a TV.

That\'s a bizarre conceit. For one thing, I am not pushing \"my own song\" what ever that might be, but rather the more or less agreed concensus - not potty ideas like the Le Sage theory of gravity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Sage%27s_theory_of_gravitation

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Anthony William Sloman · Jan 13, 2023

On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:56:18 PM UTC+11, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Jan 2023 01:48:13 -0800 (PST)) it happened Anthony
William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote in
675cb47c-830c-41e5...@googlegroups.com>:
On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 7:04:22 PM UTC+11, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Thu, 5 Jan 2023 13:41:11 -0800) it happened Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in
k1oufn...@mid.individual.net>:
On 1/4/23 11:03 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Jan 2023 10:43:20 -0800) it happened Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in
k1lvma...@mid.individual.net>:
On 1/3/23 8:07 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 03 Jan 2023 06:30:16 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

snip

What\'s next for TV? Nothing, IMHO. It had it\'s day and the world is
moving on. Other than the evening news the last time I really watched TV
was ... well ... heck, it\'s so many years ago that I can\'t even remember.

Oh no!
I have a steerable satellite dish and get a thousand or so free to air channels
So many satellites I can point to (see top page) here:
https://kingofsat.net/
News and opinions from all over the world, movies in HD... science (NASA TV for example)
many great info channels in German (ZDF-info, Kabeleins-info, N24docu etc
It is good to see the viewpoints from other countries to get a grip on the truth

Jan imagines that he has got some kind of grip on some kind of truth.

It is a trifle comic.

Today I was watching NASA TV on Hotbird 13 East satellite
It was about carbon nano tubes, they try to make electrical cables out of those
to save weight in planes and spacecraft.
Conductivity of those spun cables is not yet as good as copper,
but strength is very good, they were winding those around tanks (fuel containers etc)
to increase the strength, doing break tests.

Sounds like fun.

Interviews with the people doing the development, fascinating, a look in the labs.
Microchip sensors that you can connect to your smartphone they did work on too.
Smithsonian channel seems to have gone black since Jan 1, maybe changed sat or transponder...
Study never ends, you being brain dead and just posting others know nothing is something nobody will learn from, ever.

You may be \"studying\" but there\'s not a sign of you learning anything.
You may not like this observation about you, and Flyugu and John Larkin resent much the same observations for much the same reason.

I\'m much more tolerant of people who know more, and are open to the idea that they occasionally get stuff wrong.

> Your own song is so loud you could not hear anybody else if you even had a hearing aid like a TV.

That\'s a bizarre conceit. For one thing, I am not pushing \"my own song\" what ever that might be, but rather the more or less agreed concensus - not potty ideas like the Le Sage theory of gravity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Sage%27s_theory_of_gravitation

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

John Larkin · Jan 13, 2023

On Sat, 7 Jan 2023 01:04:32 -0000 (UTC), antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl
wrote:

Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
But not immediately. I tested 400V occasionally, but couple of them died while testing 12V. I am wondering it 400V weaken the meter.

High voltage can destroy resistors, but this seem to be quite fast.

The old CenTech meters are 1000V, but the new models are 250V. Why even bother to have 50V more than the next range of 200V. Perhaps it\'s just same design with new label, when they got enough reports/complaints.

Lot of folks live in countries where line voltage is 230V. So 50 volts
makes a lot of difference.

I am wondering if it\'s worth picking up some of the older 1000V models off ebay.

I know nothing about CenTech meters. But I have several \"DT830B\"
meters. Available schematics shows 3 resistors in series for 1000V.
My oldest one have 2 resistors. Newest one have single resistor.
Standard miniature resistors are rated for 250V, one can get
better ones, but I doubt that one can get cheaply 1000V capable
ones. Still, meter is marked as 1000V DC, 700V AC (the same
as old meters).

They eliminated 0.2 cents worth of resistors. Ignore temperature and
voltage coefficient effects. Maybe some of that is mathed out?

Chinese product prices ratchet towards cheap, and the specs ratchet
deep into the lies region. Chinese amps and volts and per cent are
about 10:1 off from SI standards.

It\'s our fault for buying the cheapest stuff on Amazon or ebay.

Is any Chinese stuff really good? Rigol is. Extech is good but isn\'t
all Chinese.

John Larkin · Jan 13, 2023

On Sat, 7 Jan 2023 01:04:32 -0000 (UTC), antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl
wrote:

Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
But not immediately. I tested 400V occasionally, but couple of them died while testing 12V. I am wondering it 400V weaken the meter.

High voltage can destroy resistors, but this seem to be quite fast.

The old CenTech meters are 1000V, but the new models are 250V. Why even bother to have 50V more than the next range of 200V. Perhaps it\'s just same design with new label, when they got enough reports/complaints.

Lot of folks live in countries where line voltage is 230V. So 50 volts
makes a lot of difference.

I am wondering if it\'s worth picking up some of the older 1000V models off ebay.

I know nothing about CenTech meters. But I have several \"DT830B\"
meters. Available schematics shows 3 resistors in series for 1000V.
My oldest one have 2 resistors. Newest one have single resistor.
Standard miniature resistors are rated for 250V, one can get
better ones, but I doubt that one can get cheaply 1000V capable
ones. Still, meter is marked as 1000V DC, 700V AC (the same
as old meters).

They eliminated 0.2 cents worth of resistors. Ignore temperature and
voltage coefficient effects. Maybe some of that is mathed out?

Chinese product prices ratchet towards cheap, and the specs ratchet
deep into the lies region. Chinese amps and volts and per cent are
about 10:1 off from SI standards.

It\'s our fault for buying the cheapest stuff on Amazon or ebay.

Is any Chinese stuff really good? Rigol is. Extech is good but isn\'t
all Chinese.

John Larkin · Jan 13, 2023

On Sat, 7 Jan 2023 01:04:32 -0000 (UTC), antispam@math.uni.wroc.pl
wrote:

Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:
But not immediately. I tested 400V occasionally, but couple of them died while testing 12V. I am wondering it 400V weaken the meter.

High voltage can destroy resistors, but this seem to be quite fast.

The old CenTech meters are 1000V, but the new models are 250V. Why even bother to have 50V more than the next range of 200V. Perhaps it\'s just same design with new label, when they got enough reports/complaints.

Lot of folks live in countries where line voltage is 230V. So 50 volts
makes a lot of difference.

I am wondering if it\'s worth picking up some of the older 1000V models off ebay.

I know nothing about CenTech meters. But I have several \"DT830B\"
meters. Available schematics shows 3 resistors in series for 1000V.
My oldest one have 2 resistors. Newest one have single resistor.
Standard miniature resistors are rated for 250V, one can get
better ones, but I doubt that one can get cheaply 1000V capable
ones. Still, meter is marked as 1000V DC, 700V AC (the same
as old meters).

They eliminated 0.2 cents worth of resistors. Ignore temperature and
voltage coefficient effects. Maybe some of that is mathed out?

Chinese product prices ratchet towards cheap, and the specs ratchet
deep into the lies region. Chinese amps and volts and per cent are
about 10:1 off from SI standards.

It\'s our fault for buying the cheapest stuff on Amazon or ebay.

Is any Chinese stuff really good? Rigol is. Extech is good but isn\'t
all Chinese.

Don Y · Jan 13, 2023

On 1/9/2023 2:57 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

In the old days a compile cycle was sufficiently tedious that you tried to get
as many faults out in each batch run as you could.

A largely selfish endeavor. It didn\'t lead to better code (because the
time available to tinker was greatly reduced), just fewer turns of the crank.
Follow that with an hour or two of burning EPROMs and you can see the
amount of attention paid to the code -- beyond getting it to work -- was
sorely limited (you sure as hell wouldn\'t refactor anything big and
risk having to deal with typos in addition to errors in your transcribed
version)

As with most development efforts, a lot of this is personal and relies
on discipline. I\'ve watched hardware designers throw things together,
over and over, until it sort-of works. Where\'s the \"process\", there?

A guy on one of my projects was designing a subsystem with all sorts of
variable configuration parameters to address the wide variety of options
it was intended to support. His first questionable move was designing
an 8x10\" board full of DIP rocker switches as the means of setting the
assorted parameters.

\"Um, why don\'t we just have the processor quiz the user for those
parameters, eh? And, take all that hardware and leave it in the bank!\"

He was preparing to release the design to the foundry (standard cell,
semi custom) and sit back for the 6 weeks (and a few tens of kilobucks)
required for first silicon. I had been tasked with writing a spec
for the guy who was going to develop the firmware to do the above
configuration. To expedite that process, I wrote the equivalent
code in a HLL running as a desktop app on a PC: \"Give the guy the
source code for this so he knows EXACTLY what is expected of him!\"

This meant examining the logic to determine how the parameters
interacted, valid ranges, etc. Turns out, he had made a glaring
mistake in the design -- that only turned up when I ran some
sample data through my desktop emulation. Why hadn\'t *he* stumbled
on that with his \"process\"?

Talk about long lead times between iterations (and lots of money
for a bunch of failed silicon -- assuming everything else worked OK)

Another guy was charged with designing a current mode motor controller.
He was in the lab every week with his latest design. And, back soon
after with a smoked prototype. Was his approach to just keep trying
things until it SEEMED to work? How confident would he be in the
version that he settled on? \"Are you sure it won\'t fail tomorrow??\"

I think things took a turn
for the worse when online terminal access became more common and PCs with a 25
line display took over. Coherence length of software reduced to the chunk that
you could see on screen at any one time!

Sort of like how much of a schematic you can see at one time.

Imagine if we were still using hardcopy output. How much time
would you waste waiting for a \"recent printout\"?

Part of the rational for HLLs is to put more functionality in
less \"screen space\".

\"\'COMPLEX\' is something that doesn\'t fit in a single brain\"

Ever work on a hardware design that was HUNDREDS of pages? In
several binders? Just *finding* the portion of the circuit that
you\'re interested in is a real effort!

Git hub is a relatively recent innovation. Major tested numerical algorithm
libraries like NAGlib have been around for much longer. Trouble is that people
reinvent the wheel again and again...

Git and other VCSs are a huge advance because they let others
EASILY \"look over your shoulder\". A single developer doesn\'t
have to be the only set of eyes checking the codebase. Imagine
designing a circuit and never showing it to anyone until the boards
have been fabbed!

What I dislike about Git is that it doesn\'t have that same sense
of \"versioning\" that many of the classic VCSs have. Every
snapshot has its own version -- \"Which ones are worth examining?\"

I had software projects, early in my career, where multiple developers
were responsible for different parts of the design. Yet, each of
their efforts had to co-operate with those of their peers. It *really*
would have been nice if we could have just \"checked out\" a stable
(possibly broken) version of each others\' code and watched to see
how *our* code fared. Instead, we had to coordinate to settle on
a subset of versions that we could *jointly* test. A huge impediment
to progress.

Don Y · Jan 13, 2023

On 1/9/2023 2:57 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

In the old days a compile cycle was sufficiently tedious that you tried to get
as many faults out in each batch run as you could.

A largely selfish endeavor. It didn\'t lead to better code (because the
time available to tinker was greatly reduced), just fewer turns of the crank.
Follow that with an hour or two of burning EPROMs and you can see the
amount of attention paid to the code -- beyond getting it to work -- was
sorely limited (you sure as hell wouldn\'t refactor anything big and
risk having to deal with typos in addition to errors in your transcribed
version)

As with most development efforts, a lot of this is personal and relies
on discipline. I\'ve watched hardware designers throw things together,
over and over, until it sort-of works. Where\'s the \"process\", there?

A guy on one of my projects was designing a subsystem with all sorts of
variable configuration parameters to address the wide variety of options
it was intended to support. His first questionable move was designing
an 8x10\" board full of DIP rocker switches as the means of setting the
assorted parameters.

\"Um, why don\'t we just have the processor quiz the user for those
parameters, eh? And, take all that hardware and leave it in the bank!\"

He was preparing to release the design to the foundry (standard cell,
semi custom) and sit back for the 6 weeks (and a few tens of kilobucks)
required for first silicon. I had been tasked with writing a spec
for the guy who was going to develop the firmware to do the above
configuration. To expedite that process, I wrote the equivalent
code in a HLL running as a desktop app on a PC: \"Give the guy the
source code for this so he knows EXACTLY what is expected of him!\"

This meant examining the logic to determine how the parameters
interacted, valid ranges, etc. Turns out, he had made a glaring
mistake in the design -- that only turned up when I ran some
sample data through my desktop emulation. Why hadn\'t *he* stumbled
on that with his \"process\"?

Talk about long lead times between iterations (and lots of money
for a bunch of failed silicon -- assuming everything else worked OK)

Another guy was charged with designing a current mode motor controller.
He was in the lab every week with his latest design. And, back soon
after with a smoked prototype. Was his approach to just keep trying
things until it SEEMED to work? How confident would he be in the
version that he settled on? \"Are you sure it won\'t fail tomorrow??\"

I think things took a turn
for the worse when online terminal access became more common and PCs with a 25
line display took over. Coherence length of software reduced to the chunk that
you could see on screen at any one time!

Sort of like how much of a schematic you can see at one time.

Imagine if we were still using hardcopy output. How much time
would you waste waiting for a \"recent printout\"?

Part of the rational for HLLs is to put more functionality in
less \"screen space\".

\"\'COMPLEX\' is something that doesn\'t fit in a single brain\"

Ever work on a hardware design that was HUNDREDS of pages? In
several binders? Just *finding* the portion of the circuit that
you\'re interested in is a real effort!

Git hub is a relatively recent innovation. Major tested numerical algorithm
libraries like NAGlib have been around for much longer. Trouble is that people
reinvent the wheel again and again...

Git and other VCSs are a huge advance because they let others
EASILY \"look over your shoulder\". A single developer doesn\'t
have to be the only set of eyes checking the codebase. Imagine
designing a circuit and never showing it to anyone until the boards
have been fabbed!

What I dislike about Git is that it doesn\'t have that same sense
of \"versioning\" that many of the classic VCSs have. Every
snapshot has its own version -- \"Which ones are worth examining?\"

I had software projects, early in my career, where multiple developers
were responsible for different parts of the design. Yet, each of
their efforts had to co-operate with those of their peers. It *really*
would have been nice if we could have just \"checked out\" a stable
(possibly broken) version of each others\' code and watched to see
how *our* code fared. Instead, we had to coordinate to settle on
a subset of versions that we could *jointly* test. A huge impediment
to progress.

Don Y · Jan 13, 2023

On 1/9/2023 2:57 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

In the old days a compile cycle was sufficiently tedious that you tried to get
as many faults out in each batch run as you could.

A largely selfish endeavor. It didn\'t lead to better code (because the
time available to tinker was greatly reduced), just fewer turns of the crank.
Follow that with an hour or two of burning EPROMs and you can see the
amount of attention paid to the code -- beyond getting it to work -- was
sorely limited (you sure as hell wouldn\'t refactor anything big and
risk having to deal with typos in addition to errors in your transcribed
version)

As with most development efforts, a lot of this is personal and relies
on discipline. I\'ve watched hardware designers throw things together,
over and over, until it sort-of works. Where\'s the \"process\", there?

A guy on one of my projects was designing a subsystem with all sorts of
variable configuration parameters to address the wide variety of options
it was intended to support. His first questionable move was designing
an 8x10\" board full of DIP rocker switches as the means of setting the
assorted parameters.

\"Um, why don\'t we just have the processor quiz the user for those
parameters, eh? And, take all that hardware and leave it in the bank!\"

He was preparing to release the design to the foundry (standard cell,
semi custom) and sit back for the 6 weeks (and a few tens of kilobucks)
required for first silicon. I had been tasked with writing a spec
for the guy who was going to develop the firmware to do the above
configuration. To expedite that process, I wrote the equivalent
code in a HLL running as a desktop app on a PC: \"Give the guy the
source code for this so he knows EXACTLY what is expected of him!\"

This meant examining the logic to determine how the parameters
interacted, valid ranges, etc. Turns out, he had made a glaring
mistake in the design -- that only turned up when I ran some
sample data through my desktop emulation. Why hadn\'t *he* stumbled
on that with his \"process\"?

Talk about long lead times between iterations (and lots of money
for a bunch of failed silicon -- assuming everything else worked OK)

Another guy was charged with designing a current mode motor controller.
He was in the lab every week with his latest design. And, back soon
after with a smoked prototype. Was his approach to just keep trying
things until it SEEMED to work? How confident would he be in the
version that he settled on? \"Are you sure it won\'t fail tomorrow??\"

I think things took a turn
for the worse when online terminal access became more common and PCs with a 25
line display took over. Coherence length of software reduced to the chunk that
you could see on screen at any one time!

Sort of like how much of a schematic you can see at one time.

Imagine if we were still using hardcopy output. How much time
would you waste waiting for a \"recent printout\"?

Part of the rational for HLLs is to put more functionality in
less \"screen space\".

\"\'COMPLEX\' is something that doesn\'t fit in a single brain\"

Ever work on a hardware design that was HUNDREDS of pages? In
several binders? Just *finding* the portion of the circuit that
you\'re interested in is a real effort!

Git hub is a relatively recent innovation. Major tested numerical algorithm
libraries like NAGlib have been around for much longer. Trouble is that people
reinvent the wheel again and again...

Git and other VCSs are a huge advance because they let others
EASILY \"look over your shoulder\". A single developer doesn\'t
have to be the only set of eyes checking the codebase. Imagine
designing a circuit and never showing it to anyone until the boards
have been fabbed!

What I dislike about Git is that it doesn\'t have that same sense
of \"versioning\" that many of the classic VCSs have. Every
snapshot has its own version -- \"Which ones are worth examining?\"

I had software projects, early in my career, where multiple developers
were responsible for different parts of the design. Yet, each of
their efforts had to co-operate with those of their peers. It *really*
would have been nice if we could have just \"checked out\" a stable
(possibly broken) version of each others\' code and watched to see
how *our* code fared. Instead, we had to coordinate to settle on
a subset of versions that we could *jointly* test. A huge impediment
to progress.

EE rant...

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