Easy Question - I Hope

[PinkFloyd43]

First finally dropped the $$ on the big screen and as I live
in TX, which typically has huge thunderstorms this time of
year, when at home I unplug everything I value. I want to
protect the TV with one of the power strips that advertise
protection against this type of thing? Any opinions on
what works and what is pure marketing BS, I do realize
a direct strike means pretty much everything is done with,
as what happened to a neighbor last year!

Thanks!

 

[JeffM]

PinkFloyd43 wrote:

I live in TX, which typically has huge thunderstorms this time of year,
[...]
I do realize a direct strike means pretty much everything is done with,

Yup.

(In the future, have your Subject line describe your problem.)

I want to protect the TV with one of the power strips
that advertise protection against this type of thing?[...]

The varistor-based devices can improve your odds

but the arithmetic is just overwhelming--even for a near-miss.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:3kdkwT-WISgJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning+inc+org+three.million.volts.per.meter+*-gigavolt+gigajoules+1000.ft&strip=1#Properties_of_lightning

as what happened to a neighbor last year!

The closer the strike, the greater the damage.

The best protection is to NOT have the highest objects in the skyline
on YOUR property.
You reminded me of the old joke
http://www.google.com/search?q=I.only.have.to.out-run.you

 

[bud--]

PinkFloyd43 wrote:

First finally dropped the $$ on the big screen and as I live
in TX, which typically has huge thunderstorms this time of
year, when at home I unplug everything I value. I want to
protect the TV with one of the power strips that advertise
protection against this type of thing? Any opinions on
what works and what is pure marketing BS, I do realize
a direct strike means pretty much everything is done with,
as what happened to a neighbor last year!

The best information on surge protection I have seen is at:
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf
- "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide
for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and
communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005.
And also:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf
- "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the
appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of
Standards and Technology in 2001

The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The
NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses.

If you use a plug-in suppressor, get a major brand with high values.

And note that all interconnected equipment must to be connected to the
same plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires need to go through the
suppressor. External connections, like cable, also must go through the
suppressor. Connecting all wiring through the suppressor prevents
damaging voltages between power and signal wires. These multiport
suppressors are described in both guides.

A plug-in suppressor works primarily by clamping the voltage between all
wires (power and signal) to the common ground at the suppressor. The
voltage between the wires going to the TV is safe for the TV.

A service panel suppressor is a good idea. If there is none, a very
strong surge will cause arc-over in the panel at about 6000V which dumps
most of the surge energy to earth. If you have a plug-in suppressor, the
impedance of the branch circuit to surges (which are basically high
frequency) greatly limits the current, and thus energy, that can reach
the suppressor.

Direct strikes to a house require lightning rods for protection. But
direct strikes are really uncommon unless you really exposed.

--
bud--

 

[w_tom]

On May 11, 10:28 am, PinkFloyd43 <pinkFloy...@hotmail.com> wrote:

First finally dropped the $$ on the big screen and as I live
in TX, which typically has huge thunderstorms this time of
year, when at home I unplug everything I value. I want to
protect the TV with one of the power strips that advertiseprotectionagainst this type of thing? Any opinions on
what works and what is pure marketing BS, I do realize
a direct strike means pretty much everything is done with,
as what happened to a neighbor last year!

Get the long list of numeric specs for that "it provides complete
protection" power strip. It will list each type of surge AND
protection from each type of surge.

Take a $3 power strip. Add some $0.10 parts. Sell that protector
for $25 or $150. Claim to protect from some ambiguous thing called a
surge. Provide no numbers that make protection claims. The naive
will use word association instead of science; 'surge protector' sounds
like 'surge protection'. The power strip protector never does make
those protection claims. Show me the numbers.

What must a power strip protector do to provide surge protection?
It will stop what three miles of sky could not stop? That silly
little part will absorb the entire surge energy? Of course not.

Obviously your telco must disconnect during thunderstorms to protect
their $multi-million computer. That computer connected to overhead
wires all over town never disconnects? Correct. They may suffer 100
surges during every thunderstorm - and no damage. They do this by not
using plug-in protectors.

Protection is by doing what Ben Franklin did in 1752. Lightning
seeks earth ground. Lightning used conductive wooden church steeples
to obtain earth. Effective protection diverted lightning to earth
using something more conductive. Same protection applies to your
telco and to your big screen TV.

Lightning strikes wires out on the street. What is a good path to
earth? Incoming on your AC mains, through your TV, and out to earth.
Effective protection earths before lightning can enter your building.
Effective protection means everything in your building is protected.
Effective protector is what your telco does - put the protector where
lightning enters the building AND make that earthing connection short
(ie less than 10 feet).

Again, what does lightning seek? What provides protection? Where
lightning energy dissipated harmlessly? Inside a power strip
protector? Of course not. Therefore more responsible companies make
a 'whole house' protector - ie Cutler-Hammer, Leviton, Intermatic,
Square D, Kieson, Siemens, GE ... Not on that list is APC,
Tripplite, Belkin, or Monster Cable.

Critical to surge protection is a single point earth ground AND a
short ('less than 10 foot) connection to earth. Your telco does that
(and does not use power strip protectors). Any facility does earthed
protectors when lightning damage is not acceptable. In your case, the
effective (properly earthed) 'whole house' protector costs about $1
per protected appliance. That power strip protector costs tens (maybe
100) times more money per effective appliance.

Review citations from Bud that also show these power strip protector
problems. On Page 42 Figure 8 of his first citation: a power strip
too close to appliances and too far from earth ground earths a surge,
8000 volts destructively, through the adjacent TV. That is what
protectors do. They don't stop or absorb surges. Protectors divert
surges to earth. It earth ground is too far away (ie more than 10
feet as in that figure 8), then surges may be earthed destructively
through adjacent appliances.

Bud's second citation is blunt about what an effective protector
must do on Adobe page 8 of 24:

You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor
"arrest" it. What these protective devices do is
neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

On Adobe page 19 of 24:

A very important point to keep in mind is that your
surge protector will work by diverting the surges to
ground. The best surge protection in the world can
be useless if grounding is not done properly.

All appliances (including that big screen TV) internally contain any
protection that would work on its power cord. Protection so robust
that 120 VAC electronics must withstand 600 or 1000 volt transients
without damage. So that the rare and destructive surge (occurs maybe
once every seven years) does not overwhelm appliance internal
protection, earth where destructive surges would enter the building.
Cable is earthed directly (if properly installed). Telephone wires
are earthed by the telco (for free). But your AC electric - the most
common source of destructive surges - has no earthing for all AC
wires. You must install one 'whole house' protector so that internal
protection inside that TV (and all other appliances) is not
overwhelmed.

Properly earth one ‘whole house’ protector to have same protection
that the telco uses for their switching computers.

Every professional citation notes what provides protection. Earth
ground. Those who promote for plug-in protectors manufacturers (and
will not admit that conflict of interest) will recommend power strip
protectors. Notice the profit margins. A $3 power strip with some
$0.10 parts selling for $150. No wonder your big screen TV salesman
was promoting that protector so avidly. That ineffective protector is
where his greatest profits lie.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No earth
ground (ie too far away) means no effective protection. Provided were
examples of companies that provides effective surge protectors.

 

[bud--]

w_tom wrote:

On May 11, 10:28 am, PinkFloyd43 <pinkFloy...@hotmail.com> wrote:

First finally dropped the $$ on the big screen and as I live
in TX, which typically has huge thunderstorms this time of
year, when at home I unplug everything I value. I want to
protect the TV with one of the power strips that advertiseprotectionagainst this type of thing? Any opinions on
what works and what is pure marketing BS, I do realize
a direct strike means pretty much everything is done with,
as what happened to a neighbor last year!

What must a power strip protector do to provide surge protection?
It will stop what three miles of sky could not stop? That silly
little part will absorb the entire surge energy? Of course not.

Poor w_ can't figure out how plug-in suppressors work. Explained in the
IEEE guide for anyone that can read and think. Hint: they don't work by
stopping or absorbing.

Therefore more responsible companies make
a 'whole house' protector - ie Cutler-Hammer, Leviton, Intermatic,
Square D, Kieson, Siemens, GE ...

All the companies but SquareD make plug-in suppressors; apparently they
aren't "responsible".

For the "best" service panel suppressor, SquareD says "electronic
equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [surge
suppressors] at the point of use."

Review citations from Bud that also show these power strip protector
problems. On Page 42 Figure 8 of his first citation: a power strip
too close to appliances and too far from earth ground earths a surge,
8000 volts destructively, through the adjacent TV.

The illustration in the IEEE guide has a surge coming in on a cable
service. There are 2 TVs, one is on a plug-in suppressor. The plug-in
suppressor protects TV1, connected to it.

Without the plug-in suppressor the surge voltage at TV2 is 10,000V. With
the suppressor at TV1 the voltage at TV2 is 8,000V. It is simply a *lie*
that the plug-in suppressor at TV1 in any way contributes to the damage
at TV2.

The point of the illustration for the IEEE, and anyone who can think, is
"to protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required."

w_ says suppressors must only be at the service panel. In this example a
service panel protector would provide absolutely *NO* protection. The
problem is the wire connecting the cable entry block to the power
service 'ground' is too long (a common problem). The IEEE guide says in
that case "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use
a multiport [plug-in] protector."

Bud's second citation is blunt about what an effective protector
must do on Adobe page 8 of 24:

What does the NIST guide really say about plug-in suppressors?
They are "the easiest solution".

All appliances (including that big screen TV) internally contain any
protection that would work on its power cord.

Nonsense.

Protection so robust
that 120 VAC electronics must withstand 600 or 1000 volt transients
without damage.

Provide a source for "must".

According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment
most frequently damaged by lightning is
computers with a modem connection
TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV
connections).
All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires.
That is the source of damage in the IEEE example above.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) that surge protection
must use earthing. Thus in his view plug-in suppressors (which are not
well earthed) can not possibly work. The IEEE guide explains plug-in
suppressors work by CLAMPING the voltage on all wires (signal and power)
to the common ground at the suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work
primarily by earthing (or stopping or absorbing). The guide explains
earthing occurs elsewhere. (Read the guide starting pdf page 40).

Because w_ is evangelical in his belief in earthing, he uses
google-groups to search for "surge" to spread his dogma.


Never seen - a source that agrees with w_ that plug-in suppressors do
NOT work.

For reliable information read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors are effective.

--
bud--

 

[whit3rd]

On May 11, 7:28 am, PinkFloyd43 <pinkFloy...@hotmail.com> wrote:

First finally dropped the $$ on the big screen and as I live
in TX, which typically has huge thunderstorms... I want to
protect the TV with one of the power strips that advertise...

Lightning has fast rise times and large currents, and induces
current in all nearby wires. To really protect a device (your TV)
requires normal precautions (grounding the house panel)
so that the TV isn't damaged as your house burns down...

The induced currents in your house wiring can still cause
the TV to suffer even if the surge is 'arrested' (shunted to
ground) at the power panel. A simple plug-through suppressor
is worthwhile, and the TV power supply undoubtedly has its own
suppressors in place internally. These shunts MUST be applied
very near the affected device for best effect. They can
fail after several surges, so replaceable cheap units work well.

A third kind of suppression is to use an isolation transformer
or (at lower cost) one or more 'clamp chokes' on the power cord.
These aren't shunts, but rather are intended to act as series
elements,
which means they simply reflect a damaging surge (to other devices
in your house, like motors and heaters, which are less sensitive).
A ten-pound transformer of copper and iron can take lots of surge
energy without damage, and has excellent blockage of
fast-rising (surge) signals. An ounce of ferrite clamped over
the cord won't absorb as much, but reflects surges like a mirror
reflects light.

The best suppressors use shunts, series elements (and fuses),
and come with a warranty against damage. Shunt device failure is
flagged with lights (or by blowing the fuses) and means
replacement or factory rebuild is due.

 

[w_tom]

On May 16, 12:45 pm, whit3rd <whit...@gmail.com> wrote:

The induced currents in your house wiring can still cause
the TV to suffer even if thesurgeis 'arrested' (shunted to
ground) at the power panel. A simple plug-throughsuppressor
is worthwhile, and the TV power supply undoubtedly has its own
suppressors in place internally. These shunts MUST be applied
very near the affected device for best effect. They can
fail after several surges, so replaceable cheap units work well.

whit3rd forgets what creates an induced surge. Protectors earth
surges. Either the surge gets earthed before entering the building,
or the surge gets earthed by adjacent plug-in protector. Later - that
ground wire - *induces* surges on adjacent wires. This is effective
protection? Of course not - and why high reliability facilities don't
use plug-in protectors that can even induce surges on other wires.

Whit3rd claims protectors somehow absorb surges. Show me. Where
are these numbers? Protection is not by absorbing surges as Whit3rd
posts. Where is this protector that claims to stop lightning by
absorbing? And where are those numbers? Whit3rd does not answer any
of those questions for good reason. The effective protector does not
earth surges. An effective protector diverts surges to be absorbed in
earth ground. And an effective protector does not induce surges onto
other appliances.

Either a surge gets earthed by a 'whole house' protector or the plug-
in protector futilely earths a surge via same earth ground. Why? If
earth ground was not desirable via a 'whole house' protector, then why
is earth ground desirable via a plug-in protector? Obviously the plug-
in protector adds nothing useful. How do high reliability facilities
get better protection? Upgrade earth ground. Either that surge does
not enter a building due to better earthing; or that surge enters a
building to induce surges everywhere.

Finally, if using basic electrical knowledge, then he would have
never posted:

The best suppressors use .. (and fuses), and come with a
warranty against damage.

More reasons why whit3rd has posted naively. a) Fuses take
milliseconds to open. Surges are done in microseconds. 300
consecutive surges could do damage and that fuse would not blow. b)
Furthermore what is the voltage rating on that fuse? Surge would
simply keep conducting through a blown fuse. Another number that
whit3rd forgot to learn. Facts that whit3rd should have known. A
fuse is not surge protection. Obvious if whit3rd had learned the
science (the numbers). Fuses don't provide surge protection made so
obvious when one learns the numbers.

A surge that is earthed before entering a building does not created
induced surges. A plug-in protector too far from earth ground creates
induced surges. We properly size a 'whole house' protector. Then
enhance its earthing. Why? A protector is only as effective as their
earth ground.

 

[bud--]

w_tom wrote:

On May 16, 12:45 pm, whit3rd <whit...@gmail.com> wrote:
The induced currents in your house wiring can still cause
the TV to suffer even if thesurgeis 'arrested' (shunted to
ground) at the power panel. A simple plug-throughsuppressor
is worthwhile, and the TV power supply undoubtedly has its own
suppressors in place internally. These shunts MUST be applied
very near the affected device for best effect. They can
fail after several surges, so replaceable cheap units work well.

Either a surge gets earthed by a 'whole house' protector or the plug-
in protector futilely earths a surge via same earth ground.

If poor w_ was able to read and think, he would know from the
explanation in the IEEE guide that plug-in suppressors work by CLAMPING
the voltage on all wires (signal and power) to the common ground at the
suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing (or
stopping or absorbing). The guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere.
(Read the guide starting pdf page 40).

More reasons why whit3rd has posted naively. a) Fuses take
milliseconds to open.

I agree that fuses do not provide surge protection.

Transformers with a shield between primary and secondary may block
common mode surges, but do not block transverse mode surges.

The most common surge protection uses MOVs for power wiring and other
voltage clamps on signal wires.

A surge that is earthed before entering a building does not created
induced surges.

w_ completely misses whit’s point that a near lightning strike can
directly induce a surge into the house wiring, with the wiring acting as
a long wire or loop antenna. A service panel suppressor does not provide
protection from this direct induction.

A protector is only as effective as their
earth ground.

The required statement of religious belief in earthing.
The IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping,
not earthing.

Still never seen - a source that agrees with w_ that plug-in suppressors
do NOT work.

For reliable information read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in
suppressors are effective.

--
bud--

 

[w_tom]

On May 18, 11:34 am, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:

If poor w_ was able to read and think, he would know from the
explanation in the IEEE guide that plug-in suppressors work by CLAMPING
the voltage on all wires (signal and power) to the common ground at the
suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing (or
stopping or absorbing). The guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere.
(Read the guide starting pdf page 40).

The plug-in protector promoter (who forgets to acknowledge what he
does) now says a protector works by 'clamping to nothing'. As every
responsible source says, effective protection is by clamping
(diverting, connecting, shunting) surges into earth. Where is that
surge energy dissipated? Bud says that energy magically disappears -
'clamping to nothing'. Responsible sources say surge energy, well,
lets quote directly from a Bud source ....

A very important point to keep in mind is that your
surge protector will work by diverting the surges to
ground. The best surge protection in the world can
be useless if grounding is not done properly.

NIST does not say anything about 'clamping to nothing'. NIST is
quite bunt about what provides protection ... "diverting the surges to
ground".

If we install effective protectors, then massive profits in those
plug-in protectors disappear. How massive? Take a $3 power strip.
Add some $0.10 parts. Sell it for $25 or $150. With profits that
large, why would Bud be honest? No wonder he posts insults; forgets
to provide a single manufacturer spec that claims protection. Oh?
Did Bud again forget to post a spec? He cannot. Protectors that
'clamp to nothing' do not list protection from each type of surge. If
the protector cannot make that claim, well, either does Bud. Insults
rather than specs are how Bud promoted ineffective products.

Why does that flat screen salesman expend so much time and effort
promoting a $150 plug-in protector? View the profit margin; another
fact that Bud hopes you will ignore.

Effective protectors make that 'always necessary' short connection
to earth ground. How curious. Even Bud's citations define that
earthing requirement. 'Clamping to nothing' accomplishes nothing. But
it is profitable.

 

[bud--]

w_tom wrote:

On May 18, 11:34 am, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:

If poor w_ was able to read and think, he would know from the
explanation in the IEEE guide that plug-in suppressors work by CLAMPING
the voltage on all wires (signal and power) to the common ground at the
suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing (or
stopping or absorbing). The guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere.
(Read the guide starting pdf page 40).

The plug-in protector promoter

To quote w_ "It is an old political trick. When facts cannot be
challenged technically, then attack the messenger." My only association
with surge protectors is I have some.

But with no technical arguments, w_ has to discredit those that oppose him.

Still never seen - a source that agrees with w_ that plug-in suppressors
do NOT work.

Never answered - embarrassing questions:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?

For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug–in
suppressors are effective.

--
bud--

 

[w_tom]

On May 20, 11:19 am, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:

To quote w_ "It is an old political trick. When facts cannot be
challenged technically, then attack the messenger." My only association
with surge protectors is I have some.

But with no technical arguments, w_ has to discredit those that oppose him.

Still never seen - a source that agrees with w_ that plug-in suppressors
do NOT work.

Bud cannot provide a single plug-in manufacturer's spec that claims
protection. 500 requests for those specs and Bud still refuses. Bud
promotes protectors that do not even claim to provide protection. A
$3 power strip with some $0.10 parts selling for $25 and $150. To
protect those profit margins, Bud will post insults.

Effective protectors with a dedicated wire to earth ground have
responsible names such as Intermatic, Siemens, Keison, Cutler-Hammer,
Leviton, Square D and GE. Not on that list are APC, Tripplite,
Belkin, and Monster Cable. How to see why? How to identify an
ineffective protector? 1) No essential and required earth ground
wire..2) Manufacturer (and Bud) avoids all discussion about earthing.

Both NIST and IEEE citations from Bud bluntly state, "The best
surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done
properly." Bud says no earthing is required.

No earth ground means no effective protection. Effective protectors
are typically connected less than 10 feet to earth ground. Shorter
means even better protection. An effective 'whole house' protectors
costs about $1 per protected appliance. Why spend $25 or $150 per
appliance for protectors without earth ground and recommended by Bud?
Bud will not even provide a manufacturer spec. He cannot. Plug-in
protectors do not claim to protect from the typically destructive
surge. So Bud posts insults.

 

[bud--]

w_tom wrote:

On May 20, 11:19 am, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:
To quote w_ "It is an old political trick. When facts cannot be
challenged technically, then attack the messenger." My only association
with surge protectors is I have some.

But with no technical arguments, w_ has to discredit those that oppose him.

Still never seen - a source that agrees with w_ that plug-in suppressors
do NOT work.

Bud cannot provide a single plug-in manufacturer's spec that claims
protection.

Provided often and ignored.

No earth ground means no effective protection.

w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) that surge protection
must use earthing. Thus in his view plug-in suppressors (which are not
well earthed) can not possibly work. The IEEE guide explains plug-in
suppressors work by CLAMPING the voltage on all wires (signal and power)
to the common ground at the suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work
primarily by earthing (or stopping or absorbing). The guide explains
earthing occurs elsewhere. (Read the guide starting pdf page 40).


Still never seen - a source that agrees with w_ that plug-in suppressors
do NOT work. It is just w_’s opinion based on his religious belief in
earthing.

Still never answered - embarrassing questions:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?

For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug–in
suppressors are effective.

--
bud--

 

[sparky]

On May 20, 1:33 pm, w_tom <w_t...@usa.net> wrote:

On May 20, 11:19 am, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:

To quote  w_  "It is an old political trick. When facts cannot be
challenged technically, then attack the messenger." My only association
with surge protectors is I have some.

But with no technical arguments, w_ has to discredit those that oppose him.

Still never seen - a source that agrees with w_ that plug-in suppressors
do NOT work.

  Bud cannot provide a single plug-in manufacturer's spec that claims
protection. 500 requests for those specs and Bud still refuses.  Bud
promotes protectors that do not even claim to provide protection.  A
$3 power strip with some $0.10 parts selling for $25 and $150.  To
protect those profit margins, Bud will post insults.

  Effective protectors with a dedicated wire to earth ground have
responsible names such as Intermatic, Siemens, Keison, Cutler-Hammer,
Leviton, Square D and GE.  Not on that list are APC, Tripplite,
Belkin, and Monster Cable.  How to see why?  How to identify an
ineffective protector?  1) No essential and required earth ground
wire..2) Manufacturer (and Bud) avoids all discussion about earthing.

Tom: Many surges are from line to neutral. A plug-in surge protector
will prevent these from damages the protected equipment. Earth
ground
provides a better degree of protection but a good level of protection
can be realized without an earth ground

 

[w_tom]

On May 21, 6:25 pm, sparky <sparky...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Tom:   Many surges are from line to neutral. A plug-in surge protector
will prevent these from damages the protected equipment.    Earth
ground provides a better degree of protection but a good level of
protection can be realized without an earth ground

Those 'surges' are typically so trivial as to be considered noise.
Protection inside all appliances makes that 'line to neutral' surge
irrelevant. Have you read those numbers? Internal 120 v appliance
protection starts at 600 volts, is said by Bud to be 800 volts, is
required by Intel specs to be 1000 volts ... Did you know these
numbers that make 'line to neutral' surges irrelevant? Are you
replacing dimmer switches daily or weekly due to this surge? Of
course not. Even dimmer switches have sufficient protection to make
that 'surge' irrelevant.

What does the 'whole house' protector also make irrelevant? The
'line to neutral' surge. The 'whole house unit protect from all type
of surges including 'line to neutral'.

Meanwhile, what are the typically destructive surges? From Bud's
IEEE citation Page 42 Figure 8 - the plug-in protector earthed a
surge, 8000 volts destructively, via the adjacent TV. Which type of
surge is typically destructive? Notice which type of surge applied
8000 volts to a TV with a plug-in protector (no earth ground)
connected adjacent. Let's see. The typically destructive surge
arrives at a plug-in protector and TV. Therefore 8000 volts destroys
the TV. That plug-in protector did exactly what its manufacturer
claimed.

A plug-in protector only claims to protect from surges that
typically do not cause damage. A 'line to neutral' surge is made
irrelevant by one 'whole house' protector. Typically destructive
surges are also made irrelevant by the same one 'whole house'
protector.

What is provided by a protector without earth ground. Zero
protection from surges that typically cause damage. What does a plug-
in protector do? It does not and does not even claim to protect from
the typically destructive surge. It only protects from surges made
irrelevant by protection already inside appliances AND it does not
(cannot) protect from typically destructive surges.

Without earth ground means no protection from typically destructive
surges. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Those
protectors protect from all types of surges. How to identify
ineffective protectors? No connection for that short (ie less than 10
foot) earthing wire.

 

[bud--]

w_tom wrote:

On May 21, 6:25 pm, sparky <sparky...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Tom: Many surges are from line to neutral. A plug-in surge protector
will prevent these from damages the protected equipment. Earth
ground provides a better degree of protection but a good level of
protection can be realized without an earth ground

Internal 120 v appliance
protection starts at 600 volts, is said by Bud to be 800 volts

I say -immunity- is -typically- -600-800V-. There is no requirement that
immunity is as much as 600V. Immunity is not necessarily by "protection".

Damage is more likely from high voltage between power and signal wires.

Meanwhile, what are the typically destructive surges? From Bud's
IEEE citation Page 42 Figure 8 - the plug-in protector earthed a
surge, 8000 volts destructively, via the adjacent TV.

The *lie* repeated. The plug-in suppressor reduces the voltage at a
second TV (which is not adjacent).

The point for the IEEE, and anyone who can think, is "to protect TV2, a
second multiport protector located at TV2 is required."

A service panel suppressor would provide absolutely *NO* protection. The
problem is the surge comes in on the cable service, and the 'ground'
wire connecting the cable entry block to the power service ‘ground’ is
too long. The IEEE guide says in that case "the only effective way of
protecting the equipment is to use a multiport protector."

Notice which type of surge applied
8000 volts to a TV with a plug-in protector (no earth ground)
connected adjacent.

The type of surge is one coming in on a cable service. A service panel
suppressor would provide absolutely NO protection.

As I previously posted, the NIST guide indicates the most common damage
is from high voltage between cable/phone wires and power wires (as in
this example).

As a result the NIST guide says:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be
sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances
[electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected
to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some
kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be
NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the
service entrance is useless."

A plug-in protector only claims to protect from surges that
typically do not cause damage.

Complete nonsense.

Plug-in suppressors have MOVs from H-N, H-G, N-G. That is all possible
combinations and all possible surges.

If a surge arrives with H & N elevated above G (common mode) the voltage
from H-G will be clamped by a MOV, the voltage from N-G will be clamped
by another MOV. The voltages between wires to the protected equipment
are safe for the protected equipment.

If there are other wires like phone or cable, they also have to go
through the suppressor. The voltage on the signal wires is also clamped
to the common ground at the suppressor. The voltage between all wires
going to the protected equipment is safe for the equipment.

The surge is not necessarily earthed effectively by the suppressor
‘ground’ wire, but earthing occurs elsewhere in the system. In the IEEE
example, the surge is earthed by the cable entry protector ‘ground’
wire. (Read the example in the IEEE guide starting pdf page 40.)

Properly connected plug-in suppressors are likely to protect from
anything but a very near lightning strike. With high ratings, they are
likely to also protect from that. The impedance of the branch circuit to
a surge greatly limits the current, and thus energy, that can reach a
plug-in suppressor.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

The required statement of religious belief in earthing. Everyone is for
earthing. But the IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work primarily
by clamping, not earthing.

Still never seen - a source that agrees with w_ that plug-in suppressors
are NOT effective.

Still never answered - embarrassing questions:
- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in
suppressors?
- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest
solution"?

For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug–in
suppressors are effective.

--
bud--

 

[Ken]

On Wed, 21 May 2008 10:07:38 -0500, bud-- <remove.budnews@isp.com>
wrote:

w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) that surge protection
must use earthing.

That's true that effective surge protection must use earthing.

 

[sparky]

On May 24, 3:40 pm, Ken <ke...@telia.com> wrote:

On Wed, 21 May 2008 10:07:38 -0500, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com
wrote:

w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) that surge protection
must use earthing.

That's true that effective surge protection must use earthing.

Not all equipment comes with a grouded cord. Plugin protectors will
protect this equipment equally as well as a grounded protector.
The protection will be almost as good as a whole house protector.

 

[w_tom]

On May 25, 2:00 pm, sparky <sparky...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Not all equipment comes with a grouded cord. Plugin protectors will
protect this equipment equally as well as a groundedprotector.
The protection will be almost as good as a whole houseprotector.

At no time was the safety ground on an appliance even relevant.
Does not matter whether an appliance has two or three wires (since
that third wire is not earth ground). A surge can find earth ground
destructively through that appliance. A plug-in protector can even
make that damage easier.

Plug-in protectors can even contribute to damage of the adjacent
appliance. That is the point of a Bud citation - Page 42 Figure 8.
The adjacent TV (even a two wire TV) suffered 8000 volts because the
nearby plug-in protector earthed that surge through the TV. Once a
surge is permitted inside a building, then destructive paths to earth
can exist most anywhere.

Again, where surge damage is not acceptable, one 'whole house'
protector is installed and properly earthed. Properly? Numbers such
as 'less than 10 feet' to earth ground are relevant. Why? Wire
impedance.

Two 'top of the front page' articles in Electrical Engineering Times
discuss what and whys. Both articles are entitled "Protecting
Electrical Devices from Lightning Transients". So the article
discussed plug-in protectors? Of course not. This is science for
engineers - not myths for retail salesmen. The article discusses
earth ground and other important numbers such as why that earthing
wire must be short (ie 'less than 10 feet'). Since they are
discussing effective protection, then plug-in protectors are not
discussed.

The effective 'whole house' protector means massive protection.
Well, it is not perfect. IEEE Green Book puts numbers to imperfect
(properly earthed) protection:

Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or
diverted to a path which will, if well designed and constructed,
not result in damage. Even this means is not positive,
providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ...
Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct
strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per
6000 years ...

We install one 'whole house' protector (properly earthed) so that
every of maybe 100 electronics appliances (including more important
electronics like smoke detectors and bathroom GFCIs) are not damaged.
Protection that is imperfect using numbers such as 99% effective - if
properly earthed.

How to have massive surge protection in a house that only has two
wire circuits? Exact same 'whole house' protector with earthing at
the breaker box, upgraded to exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code
requirements. Nothing even says replacing the breaker box. We
simply install one 'whole house' protector and earthing. Now even two
wire appliances have effective protection - far beyond what any plug-
in protector claims to provide.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No earth
ground (ie plug-in protectors) means no effective protection.

Did another forget to mention that a plug-in protector is
ineffective without a 'whole house' protector? Of course not. If he
did, you might learn why earthing provided protection. Then his
profits would be at risk. A protector is only as effective as its
earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. At what
point should we ignore damning engineering numbers?

 

[sparky]

Return to Federal Citizen Information Center Home Page

Decisions, decisions

Surge protectors come in many shapes and forms for many purposes, not
just the plug-in kind that you find in the electronic stores. There
are several ways to install them on your power supply: plug and play,
do-it-yourself, hire a licensed electrician to do it, or even call on
your power company to do it. Here is a run down on your options, and
who does it:

Purchase one or more plug-in surge protectors
Install a surge protector at the service entrance panel
Have the power company install a surge protector next to the meter
Plug-in surge protectors

This is the easiest solution, and there is a wide variety of brands
available in the stores (as we noted at the start of this booklet, we
are not going to recommend brands). These come in two forms: a box
that plugs directly into a wall receptacle, or a strip with a power
cord and multiple outlets. Depending on the appliance, you will look
for a simple AC power plug-in, or a more complex combined protector
for AC power and telephone or cable -more on that later. However,
before you purchase the right protector for the job, you should think
about some details.

There is another decision to make, concerning how a surge protector
will power your appliance if the protective element should fail under
extreme cases of exposure to a large surge or large swell. Most surge
protectors are provided internally with some kind of fuse that will
disconnect in case of failure. However, this disconnect can operate in
two different ways, depending on the design of the surge protector:
some will completely cut-off the output power, others will disconnect
the failed element but maintain the power output.

Quit and be protected or continue?

For you, it is a matter of choice: would you want to maintain the
output power to your appliance -but with no more surge protection? Or
would you rather maintain protection for sure -by having the circuit
of the protector cut off the power supply to your appliance, if the
protective function were to fail? To make an intelligent decision, you
must know which of the two possibilities are designed into the surge
protector that you will be looking for.

What are the lights telling you?

To help the consumer know what is going on inside the surge protector,
many manufacturers provide some form of indication, generally by one
or more pilot lights on the device. Unfortunately, these indications
are not standardized, and the meaning might be confusing, between one,
two - even three or four lights -where it is not always clear what
their color means. Read the instructions!

More decisions ...

So far, we have looked mostly at the plug-in surge protectors because
they are the easiest to install and they do not require the services
of an electrician. The two other possible locations for surge
protectors are the service panel (breaker panel) and the meter
socket.

Service-panel surge protectors

Instead of using several plug-in protectors -one for each sensitive
appliance is sometimes recommended -you can install a protector at the
service panel of the house (also called "service entrance" or "breaker
box"). The idea is that with one device, all appliances in the house
can be protected, perhaps with a few plug-in protectors next to the
most sensitive appliances. There are two types of devices available:
incorporated in the panel, or outside the panel.

Some breaker panel manufacturers also offer a snap-in surge protector,
taking the space of two breakers (assuming that there are blank spaces
available on the panel), and easily installed by the home owner or by
an electrician. However, there are two limitations or conditions to
that approach:

The snap-in protectors generally fit only in a breaker panel from the
same manufacturer -possibly down to the model or vintage of the
panel.

To install the snap-in protector, you must remove the front panel (do
turn off the main breaker before you do that i). Most cities have
codes allowing the home owner to do it, under some conditions. Check
with your local authorities to find out if they allow you to do that,
or hire a licensed electrician to do the installation for you.
There are other surge protectors packaged for wiring into the service
panel, either within or next to the panel. That kind of installation
is best left to a licensed electrician.

At the meter socket

There might be a possibility that the power - company in your area
offers, as an option, to install a surge protector with a special
adapter, fitting it between the meter and its socket (the dark band in
the bubble of the picture). But that type of device and installation
is out of the question as a do-it-yourself project, and will require
cooperation from the power company, if they do offer the program.

Other types of outdoor surge protectors can be installed near the
meter. That kind of installation must be done by a licensed
electrician.


http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/housing/surge/decisions.htm

 

[bud--]

Ken wrote:

On Wed, 21 May 2008 10:07:38 -0500, bud-- <remove.budnews@isp.com
wrote:

w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) that surge protection
must use earthing.

That's true that effective surge protection must use earthing.

w_ says that surge protectors must directly use earthing. Since plug-in
suppressors do not usually have a low impedance path to earth, w_ says
plug-in suppressors can not work.

The example in the IEEE guide (starting pdf page 40) shows plug-in
suppressors work primarily by clamping the voltage on all wires (power
and signal) to the common ground at the suppressor. The voltage between
the wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected
equipment. Plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing a
surge. Earthing occurs elsewhere in the system. If this is not clear
read the example.

--
bud--