Dyed-in-the-wool circuit designers

M

Max Hauser

Guest
At dinner recently with an experienced analog designer (Paul Brokaw, bit of
a mentor to me since 1977) over adequate restaurant Reuben sandwiches [1],
discussing experiences old and new, and circuit-design training techniques
[2], it became obvious that some people are, maybe not circuit designers
from birth, but sooner or later stuck with the habit, like it or not. A
clear example is an engineer I know who considered other careers, spending
time as a monk in France. He found himself involuntarily sketching
transistor circuits; this and other factors convinced him his vocation lay
elsewhere. (The Carthusians had very reasonably assigned him duties
repairing their electrical systems.) I briefly worked in the interesting
and nearer vocation of communication systems and still found myself
sketching transistor circuits (one of which by the way got a patent much
later, by someone else -- a case alluded to in a tirade in the current
Plagiarism thread on comp.dsp). I've known a number of people with such
involuntary circuit habits. One or two I knew in college were not studying
engineering but could not break the habit of building things or trying
design ideas to solve problems. Incorrigibles.


Supplemental notes

[1] Even adequate Reubens are still sad, because a good Reuben sandwich is
not only a serious pleasure but easy to make. Good ingredients and good
"Russian Dressing" are the main things. Even though the Reuben is young for
a classic sandwich (1956 is the likely origin), still it has managed to turn
bland. One culprit is "Thousand Island Dressing" which traditionally (De
Gouy, 1948) is a bland version of Russian Dressing with lots of mayonnaise,
with whipped cream added to suppress any surviving flavor. (By the way, the
Reuben manages to violate all major religious dietary codes of the world and
all common or fashionable dietary restrictions, including low
carbohydrates.) Sinful.

[2] One example was the "beta schools." Student engineers at some schools
have been taught about bipolar transistors in basic amplifier stages
emphasizing "beta" or common-emitter current gain. In this view collector
current is controlled most fundamentally by base current, and if you come to
think of beta as a central and solid parameter, you can even set up a
common-emitter amplfier by forcing a fixed current into the base, and then
designing for an expected resulting collector current. As far as I know, no
expert transistor-level designer does this (anyway I have not seen it in 30+
years of knowing many such people) but it is how the subject is sometimes
taught. (A practical impracticality is that "beta" is among the least
predictable and stable params in all of solid-state electronics. Expert
designers typically organize their designs to be as unaffected by beta as
possible.) The "-1" factor in the tidy "Ebers-Moll" models is an even more
misleading abstraction, but that's enough tirade for now.


Max Hauser
(Copyright 2004)
 
On Fri, 21 May 2004 02:09:38 -0700, "Max Hauser"
<maxREMOVE@THIStdl.com> wrote:

At dinner recently with an experienced analog designer (Paul Brokaw, bit of
a mentor to me since 1977) over adequate restaurant Reuben sandwiches [1],
discussing experiences old and new, and circuit-design training techniques
[2], it became obvious that some people are, maybe not circuit designers
from birth, but sooner or later stuck with the habit, like it or not.
Not from birth. I was interested in chemistry until I was 8.

A clear example is an engineer I know who considered other careers, spending
time as a monk in France. He found himself involuntarily sketching
transistor circuits; this and other factors convinced him his vocation lay
elsewhere. (The Carthusians had very reasonably assigned him duties
repairing their electrical systems.) I briefly worked in the interesting
and nearer vocation of communication systems and still found myself
sketching transistor circuits (one of which by the way got a patent much
later, by someone else -- a case alluded to in a tirade in the current
Plagiarism thread on comp.dsp). I've known a number of people with such
involuntary circuit habits. One or two I knew in college were not studying
engineering but could not break the habit of building things or trying
design ideas to solve problems. Incorrigibles.

My wife thinks it's - yecch - "adorable" that I'm always scribbling
circuits on any available surface. [1]

98% of the time I think of transistors as 'beta boxes'. Kev insists
that transistors are voltage operated, but I don't care.

Agree about the Reubens, although a really good corned beef on egg
bread can be just as tasty. And just as hard to find.

John


[1] it turns out that there is a type of woman who likes engineers,
and it's not a bad type at all. God provides.
 
On Fri, 21 May 2004 08:21:04 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:

On Fri, 21 May 2004 02:09:38 -0700, "Max Hauser"
maxREMOVE@THIStdl.com> wrote:

At dinner recently with an experienced analog designer (Paul Brokaw, bit of
a mentor to me since 1977) over adequate restaurant Reuben sandwiches [1],
discussing experiences old and new, and circuit-design training techniques
[2], it became obvious that some people are, maybe not circuit designers
from birth, but sooner or later stuck with the habit, like it or not.

Not from birth. I was interested in chemistry until I was 8.
I was going into architecture... then my father became a Raytheon
wholesaler in 1956, and there were CK722's and CK760's in there ;-)

[snip]
My wife thinks it's - yecch - "adorable" that I'm always scribbling
circuits on any available surface. [1]

98% of the time I think of transistors as 'beta boxes'. Kev insists
that transistors are voltage operated, but I don't care.
I don't care either. I really don't know quite how I think of
transistors... they just are. Base current is just a nuisance to be
contended with. In my (now) typical world of BiCMOS I have all kinds
of goodies at my disposal.

Agree about the Reubens, although a really good corned beef on egg
bread can be just as tasty. And just as hard to find.
We have several very Bronx-authentic delis around here.

John


[1] it turns out that there is a type of woman who likes engineers,
and it's not a bad type at all. God provides.
Indeed! I am likewise blessed! We just celebrated our 44th
anniversary on March 31.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
On Fri, 21 May 2004 09:12:43 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
Agree about the Reubens, although a really good corned beef on egg
bread can be just as tasty. And just as hard to find.

We have several very Bronx-authentic delis around here.
Of course the really authentic delis don't (won't) make a Reuben
sandwich.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
 
On Fri, 21 May 2004 16:18:42 GMT, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Fri, 21 May 2004 09:12:43 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

Agree about the Reubens, although a really good corned beef on egg
bread can be just as tasty. And just as hard to find.

We have several very Bronx-authentic delis around here.

Of course the really authentic delis don't (won't) make a Reuben
sandwich.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Come to think of it, you're right. I get my Reuben at a regular
restaurant, corned beef and pastrami at the deli.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
Max Hauser wrote:

At dinner recently with an experienced analog designer (Paul Brokaw, bit of
a mentor to me since 1977) over adequate restaurant Reuben sandwiches [1],
discussing experiences old and new, and circuit-design training techniques
[2], it became obvious that some people are, maybe not circuit designers
from birth, but sooner or later stuck with the habit, like it or not. A
clear example is an engineer I know who considered other careers, spending
time as a monk in France. He found himself involuntarily sketching
transistor circuits; this and other factors convinced him his vocation lay
elsewhere. (The Carthusians had very reasonably assigned him duties
repairing their electrical systems.) I briefly worked in the interesting
and nearer vocation of communication systems and still found myself
sketching transistor circuits (one of which by the way got a patent much
later, by someone else -- a case alluded to in a tirade in the current
Plagiarism thread on comp.dsp). I've known a number of people with such
involuntary circuit habits. One or two I knew in college were not studying
engineering but could not break the habit of building things or trying
design ideas to solve problems. Incorrigibles.


Supplemental notes

[1] Even adequate Reubens are still sad, because a good Reuben sandwich is
not only a serious pleasure but easy to make. Good ingredients and good
"Russian Dressing" are the main things. Even though the Reuben is young for
a classic sandwich (1956 is the likely origin), still it has managed to turn
bland. One culprit is "Thousand Island Dressing" which traditionally (De
Gouy, 1948) is a bland version of Russian Dressing with lots of mayonnaise,
with whipped cream added to suppress any surviving flavor. (By the way, the
Reuben manages to violate all major religious dietary codes of the world and
all common or fashionable dietary restrictions, including low
carbohydrates.) Sinful.
Max Hauser
(Copyright 2004)


Max,
Maybe that is why I don't quite fit in here as well as others. I don't
think in transistor circuits, but in system blocks and algorithms. I
would probably be a good manager... :cool:

As for Ruebens, nothing is more disappointing than to order a bad
Rueben. Got one that was TURKEY with COLESLAW on WHEAT! What was up
with that! Has to be corned beef, swiss, saurkraut and grilled rye.
Russian dressing is just a bonus!

--
Charlie
--
Edmondson Engineering
Unique Solutions to Unusual Problems
 
On Fri, 21 May 2004 10:20:28 -0700, Charles Edmondson
<edmondson@ieee.org> wrote:

Max Hauser wrote:

At dinner recently with an experienced analog designer (Paul Brokaw, bit of
a mentor to me since 1977) over adequate restaurant Reuben sandwiches [1],
[snip]
Max,
Maybe that is why I don't quite fit in here as well as others. I don't
think in transistor circuits, but in system blocks and algorithms. I
would probably be a good manager... :cool:
Probably ;-)

(Where is Nikhil? He hasn't replied in nearly two weeks. Did I
offend by suggesting that Schematics users might bail ?:)

As for Ruebens, nothing is more disappointing than to order a bad
Rueben. Got one that was TURKEY with COLESLAW on WHEAT! What was up
with that! Has to be corned beef, swiss, saurkraut and grilled rye.
Russian dressing is just a bonus!

--
Charlie
Turkey? Gag! You have to stop hanging out with the no-red-meat crowd
;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
On Fri, 21 May 2004 02:09:38 -0700, "Max Hauser"
<maxREMOVE@THIStdl.com> wrote:

......should probably stick to their areas (or eras) of expertise.

RL
 
On Fri, 21 May 2004 18:43:51 GMT, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Fri, 21 May 2004 02:09:38 -0700, "Max Hauser"
maxREMOVE@THIStdl.com> wrote:

.....should probably stick to their areas (or eras) of expertise.

RL
If all you know is circuit design, you have no reason to design
circuits. If you know circuit design, and some physics, and then you
learn something about, say, x-ray detectors or diesel generators or
magnetic resonance, *then* you can design great circuits. After a good
lunch, of course.

John
 
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote in
message news:2efta012hmmd99ijee5p4h04kog0c4706q@4ax.com...
On Fri, 21 May 2004 18:43:51 GMT, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Fri, 21 May 2004 02:09:38 -0700, "Max Hauser"
maxREMOVE@THIStdl.com> wrote:

.....should probably stick to their areas (or eras) of expertise.

RL

If all you know is circuit design, you have no reason to design
circuits. If you know circuit design, and some physics, and then you
learn something about, say, x-ray detectors or diesel generators or
magnetic resonance, *then* you can design great circuits. After a good
lunch, of course.

John
the inability to repair ones car is, IMO, a good indicator of poor circuit
design performance. theory is usually the easy part, its practical things
that screw up most designs.

Terry
 
"Max Hauser" <maxREMOVE@THIStdl.com> wrote in message
news:10arhqhhdfma0b@corp.supernews.com...
At dinner recently with an experienced analog designer (Paul Brokaw, bit
of
a mentor to me since 1977) over adequate restaurant Reuben sandwiches [1],
discussing experiences old and new, and circuit-design training techniques
[2], it became obvious that some people are, maybe not circuit designers
from birth, but sooner or later stuck with the habit, like it or not. A
clear example is an engineer I know who considered other careers, spending
time as a monk in France. He found himself involuntarily sketching
transistor circuits; ...
When I was about pre-pubescent, I used to crawl behind the family's stereo
and study the amp schematic. I remember 12AX7s from there. :) Then again,
one time at a bus stop I wrote a Sieve of Eratosthenes in 3 lines on the
back of an envelope. And just recently, as I was driving past a local
refinery, I found myself fantasizing drawing it in autocad or equiv.

So I guess, whatever it is, a person probably picks stuff like that,
and everybody's got some kind of thing that they go for preferentially,
which is why there's different jobs and stuff.

And I've always been pretty casual about the fact that I really don't
design anything at all - I just rearrange stuff that somebody else has
already designed. :)

And I've certainly never written a new word, at least not any that stuck.
I've coined a couple of phrases that have since turned up either in
widespread
net use or in the mainstream - I was the first to say "she knows her elbow
from a hole in the ground," and "screaming poop machine(s)". Interestingly,
the first individual is seldom found in conjunction with the latter
category.

Cheers!
Rich
 
On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:04:01 -0700, "Terry Given"
<the_domes@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

[snip]
the inability to repair ones car is, IMO, a good indicator of poor circuit
design performance. theory is usually the easy part, its practical things
that screw up most designs.

Terry
I'm not so sure if that's the case anymore.

Cars USED to be repairable at home.

You can still do your own brake job and change the fluids, but what do
you do if the engine refuses to run? Do you have an automobile
diagnostic computer at home ?:)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> says...

Do you have an automobile diagnostic computer at home ?:)
Why yes, as a matter of fact. http://guymacon.com/SUN/INDEX.HTM

:)
 
On Sat, 22 May 2004 08:35:52 -0700, Guy Macon
<http://www.guymacon.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> says...

Do you have an automobile diagnostic computer at home ?:)

Why yes, as a matter of fact. http://guymacon.com/SUN/INDEX.HTM

:)
I've reached the age where I expect service... bring me a loaner car
and pick up mine ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:qkqua0h6g86ts6um029v9f3dagdvge7hk9@4ax.com...
On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:04:01 -0700, "Terry Given"
the_domes@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

[snip]

the inability to repair ones car is, IMO, a good indicator of poor
circuit
design performance. theory is usually the easy part, its practical things
that screw up most designs.

Terry


I'm not so sure if that's the case anymore.

Cars USED to be repairable at home.

You can still do your own brake job and change the fluids, but what do
you do if the engine refuses to run? Do you have an automobile
diagnostic computer at home ?:)
I gave up working on my own cars many years ago after I rebuilt a VW
carburetor and had two screws left over.

Seemed to work ok, though.
 
On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:01:54 -0700, "Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com>
wrote:

[snip]
I gave up working on my own cars many years ago after I rebuilt a VW
carburetor and had two screws left over.

Seemed to work ok, though.
Ah, yes, I remember carburetors well... remove screws and remove
cover... watch little pistons and springs go dancing across the
floor... try to figure out which piece goes in what hole ;-)

Watched a repairman fix my hp1120C printer the other day... he had a
neat MAGNETIC BOWL that he dropped the screws into. Gotta find one of
those.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:13:26 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:01:54 -0700, "Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com
wrote:

[snip]
I gave up working on my own cars many years ago after I rebuilt a VW
carburetor and had two screws left over.

Seemed to work ok, though.


Ah, yes, I remember carburetors well... remove screws and remove
cover... watch little pistons and springs go dancing across the
floor... try to figure out which piece goes in what hole ;-)

Watched a repairman fix my hp1120C printer the other day... he had a
neat MAGNETIC BOWL that he dropped the screws into. Gotta find one of
those.

...Jim Thompson
I got one of these from the mall Snap-on store:

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/pro_det.asp?item_ID=637&group_ID=3178

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
 
On Sat, 22 May 2004 23:16:36 GMT, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:13:26 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:01:54 -0700, "Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com
wrote:

[snip]
I gave up working on my own cars many years ago after I rebuilt a VW
carburetor and had two screws left over.

Seemed to work ok, though.


Ah, yes, I remember carburetors well... remove screws and remove
cover... watch little pistons and springs go dancing across the
floor... try to figure out which piece goes in what hole ;-)

Watched a repairman fix my hp1120C printer the other day... he had a
neat MAGNETIC BOWL that he dropped the screws into. Gotta find one of
those.

...Jim Thompson

I got one of these from the mall Snap-on store:

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/pro_det.asp?item_ID=637&group_ID=3178

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Looks like the very one. I should have stuck my nose over his
shoulder and read the label, but he had that classic sign...

Repairs $50/hour
If you watch $75/hour
If you help $100/hour ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:jiuua0ppts8id7sdhgqa2i4hao2inih7k3@4ax.com...
On Sat, 22 May 2004 08:35:52 -0700, Guy Macon
http://www.guymacon.com> wrote:


Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> says...

Do you have an automobile diagnostic computer at home ?:)

Why yes, as a matter of fact. http://guymacon.com/SUN/INDEX.HTM

:)

I've reached the age where I expect service... bring me a loaner car
and pick up mine ;-)

...Jim Thompson
Friends of mince recently bought a brand new Mercedes (cant recall model).
He's a retired mechanic, and one saturday not long after they bought the
car, he went looking for the dipstick (old habits die hard). He couldnt find
it. Upon asking Mercedes how he checks his oil and water, he was told:

"Sir, when the car needs oil or water it will tell you, you can bring it to
us and we will service it"

Mind you, when employing uni grads, they typically cant afford such cars,
and instead have ones that still *can* be fixed.

Cheers
Terry
 
On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:13:26 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:01:54 -0700, "Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com
wrote:

[snip]
I gave up working on my own cars many years ago after I rebuilt a VW
carburetor and had two screws left over.

Seemed to work ok, though.


Ah, yes, I remember carburetors well... remove screws and remove
cover... watch little pistons and springs go dancing across the
floor... try to figure out which piece goes in what hole ;-)
The rebuild kit has an exploded view.
Watched a repairman fix my hp1120C printer the other day... he had a
neat MAGNETIC BOWL that he dropped the screws into. Gotta find one of
those.

Big Lots, Sears...

Old speaker...

--
Best Regards,
Mike
 

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