Driveway sensor, model 917-1, mfg. around 1993 by "Detector

[klem kedidelhopper]

I have this unit which I installed many years ago in a new fast food
business. The restaurant failed shortly after it was installed and I
got the equipment back. So in essence it is like brand new.and was
operational when it was removed from service.

The unit is a self contained box with loop sense wires and isolated
spdt relay wires. It operates from 120V. The loop was buried in the
driveway and so I was unable to retrieve that part of the system.

Installation was rather simple. Unfortunately I can't find the
installation instructions however I do recall that we had to cut the
asphalt driveway and bury a loop of AWG. 14 cable. The loop would
sense a large mass of metal over it such as a car, (as opposed to a
non metallic mass), at a drive through and operate a form C relay. I
would like to set this unit up in my own driveway now however the
problem is I don't remember the configuration of the loop, IE how many
turns there were in the loop or its diameter. Actually I think that we
buried it down 8 inches or so and that it was rectangular shaped but
I'm just not sure.

There is no longer a listing for Detector systems however the strange
thing is the number 917-1 does come up as some kind of driveway sensor
but I can't seem to find any information on it.

I would think that this type of unit must be similar to those that are
used at intersections for traffic light control but I'm not sure how
to find that information.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of sensor who can
advise me as to the sense loop characteristics? Thanks for any
assistance, Lenny

 

[nesesu]

On Oct 12, 6:12 am, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I have this unit which I installed many years ago in a new fast food
business. The restaurant failed shortly after it was installed and I
got the equipment back. So in essence it is like brand new.and was
operational when it was removed from service.

The unit is a self contained box with loop sense wires and isolated
spdt relay wires. It operates from 120V. The loop was buried in the
driveway and so I was unable to retrieve that part of the system.

Installation was rather simple. Unfortunately I can't find the
installation instructions however I do recall that we had to cut the
asphalt driveway and bury a loop of AWG. 14 cable. The loop would
sense a large mass of metal over it such as a car, (as opposed  to a
non metallic mass), at a drive through and operate a form C relay. I
would like to set this unit up in my own driveway now however the
problem is I don't remember the configuration of the loop, IE how many
turns there were in the loop or its diameter. Actually I think that we
buried it down 8 inches or so and that it was rectangular shaped but
I'm just not sure.

There is no longer a listing for Detector systems however the strange
thing is the number 917-1 does come up as some kind of driveway sensor
but I can't seem to find any information on it.

I would think that this type of unit must be similar to those that are
used at intersections for traffic light control but I'm not sure how
to find that information.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of sensor who can
advise me as to the sense loop characteristics?  Thanks for any
assistance, Lenny

A few thoughts on these sensors. Generally, the loop is non critical
and the unit automatically compensates for variation. The loop is
somewhat standardized since one does not dig up the road to change the
loop if the detector unit needs replacing. I seem to recall that the
loop is typically about 4' x 8' and about 2 or three turns. One could
easily tape a test coil to the driveway and try it out. Usually, the
coil is buried about 3-4" into the asphalt.
Try looking up the oldest sensor info you can find [Eagle signals?]
and see what info it has on the coil.
Usually, the connections on the quality sensors is by a single 'MS'
type circular connector with 8 connections. You should be able to open
the case and trace the pinout. Connections should be: AC input [line,
neutral, ground], Output [NC, COM, NO] and LOOP.
You could also check with your local roads department's electrical
shop. Good luck!

Neil S.

 

[klem kedidelhopper]

On Oct 12, 10:48 am, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:

On Oct 12, 6:12 am, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:





I have this unit which I installed many years ago in a new fast food
business. The restaurant failed shortly after it was installed and I
got the equipment back. So in essence it is like brand new.and was
operational when it was removed from service.

The unit is a self contained box with loop sense wires and isolated
spdt relay wires. It operates from 120V. The loop was buried in the
driveway and so I was unable to retrieve that part of the system.

Installation was rather simple. Unfortunately I can't find the
installation instructions however I do recall that we had to cut the
asphalt driveway and bury a loop of AWG. 14 cable. The loop would
sense a large mass of metal over it such as a car, (as opposed  to a
non metallic mass), at a drive through and operate a form C relay. I
would like to set this unit up in my own driveway now however the
problem is I don't remember the configuration of the loop, IE how many
turns there were in the loop or its diameter. Actually I think that we
buried it down 8 inches or so and that it was rectangular shaped but
I'm just not sure.

There is no longer a listing for Detector systems however the strange
thing is the number 917-1 does come up as some kind of driveway sensor
but I can't seem to find any information on it.

I would think that this type of unit must be similar to those that are
used at intersections for traffic light control but I'm not sure how
to find that information.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of sensor who can
advise me as to the sense loop characteristics?  Thanks for any
assistance, Lenny

A few thoughts on these sensors. Generally, the loop is non critical
and the unit automatically compensates for variation. The loop is
somewhat standardized since one does not dig up the road to change the
loop if the detector unit needs replacing. I seem to recall that the
loop is typically about 4' x 8' and about 2 or three turns. One could
easily tape a test coil to the driveway and try it out. Usually, the
coil is buried about 3-4" into the asphalt.
Try looking up the oldest sensor info you can find [Eagle signals?]
and see what info it has on the coil.
Usually, the connections on the quality sensors is by a single 'MS'
type circular connector with 8 connections. You should be able to open
the case and trace the pinout. Connections should be: AC input [line,
neutral, ground], Output [NC, COM, NO] and LOOP.
You could also check with your local roads department's electrical
shop. Good luck!

Neil S.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi Neil
I made a coil in the configuration you described out of 14AWG. wire.
The coil is 4 turns of wire with a 4 X 8 rectangular shape. The
perimeter is 96" approximately. I just realized that this is a larger
perimeter than you suggested so I wonder if that might cause a
stability problem such as I'm having? The funny thing is with this
coil the control unit will sometimes detect the vehicle every time on
the approach, (within 2 feet of the car even before the car passes
over it. At other times there is no detection at all. I tried the
different modes, pulse, 2 second delay, presence, and messed with the
sensitivity. So I'm wondering if I need more or less turns or maybe a
different loop size.
I could be wrong because this was a long time ago but the driveway may
have been about 8 feet wide. The cuts we made for the coil may have
been much narrower than this coil. Those cuts could have been 8 feet
by say 4 or 5 inches or so. Do you think that could have been
possible.? Would configuration and size cause a reliability problem
such as I'm having? This is so frustrating. I know that the system
worked well at the time. I just can't remember exactly what we did.
Thanks for any further input. Lenny

 

[nesesu]

On Oct 13, 5:37 am, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Oct 12, 10:48 am, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:





On Oct 12, 6:12 am, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:

I have this unit which I installed many years ago in a new fast food
business. The restaurant failed shortly after it was installed and I
got the equipment back. So in essence it is like brand new.and was
operational when it was removed from service.

The unit is a self contained box with loop sense wires and isolated
spdt relay wires. It operates from 120V. The loop was buried in the
driveway and so I was unable to retrieve that part of the system.

Installation was rather simple. Unfortunately I can't find the
installation instructions however I do recall that we had to cut the
asphalt driveway and bury a loop of AWG. 14 cable. The loop would
sense a large mass of metal over it such as a car, (as opposed  to a
non metallic mass), at a drive through and operate a form C relay. I
would like to set this unit up in my own driveway now however the
problem is I don't remember the configuration of the loop, IE how many
turns there were in the loop or its diameter. Actually I think that we
buried it down 8 inches or so and that it was rectangular shaped but
I'm just not sure.

There is no longer a listing for Detector systems however the strange
thing is the number 917-1 does come up as some kind of driveway sensor
but I can't seem to find any information on it.

I would think that this type of unit must be similar to those that are
used at intersections for traffic light control but I'm not sure how
to find that information.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of sensor who can
advise me as to the sense loop characteristics?  Thanks for any
assistance, Lenny

A few thoughts on these sensors. Generally, the loop is non critical
and the unit automatically compensates for variation. The loop is
somewhat standardized since one does not dig up the road to change the
loop if the detector unit needs replacing. I seem to recall that the
loop is typically about 4' x 8' and about 2 or three turns. One could
easily tape a test coil to the driveway and try it out. Usually, the
coil is buried about 3-4" into the asphalt.
Try looking up the oldest sensor info you can find [Eagle signals?]
and see what info it has on the coil.
Usually, the connections on the quality sensors is by a single 'MS'
type circular connector with 8 connections. You should be able to open
the case and trace the pinout. Connections should be: AC input [line,
neutral, ground], Output [NC, COM, NO] and LOOP.
You could also check with your local roads department's electrical
shop. Good luck!

Neil S.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi Neil
I made a coil in the configuration you described out of 14AWG. wire.
The coil is 4 turns of wire with a 4 X 8 rectangular shape. The
perimeter is 96" approximately. I just realized that this is a larger
perimeter than you suggested so I wonder if that might cause a
stability problem such as I'm having? The funny thing is with this
coil the control unit will sometimes detect the vehicle every time on
the approach, (within 2 feet of the car even before the car passes
over it. At other times there is no detection at all. I tried the
different modes, pulse, 2 second delay, presence,  and messed with the
sensitivity. So I'm wondering if I need more or less turns or maybe a
different loop size.
I could be wrong because this was a long time ago but the driveway may
have been about 8 feet wide. The cuts we made for the coil may have
been much narrower than this coil. Those cuts could have been 8 feet
by say 4 or 5 inches or so. Do you think that could have been
possible.? Would configuration and size cause a reliability problem
such as I'm having? This is so frustrating. I know that the system
worked well at the time. I just can't remember exactly what we did.
Thanks for any further input. Lenny- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Lenny, I am a bit puzzled by your coil description. You say it is 4 x
8 and 4 turns, but has a perimiter of 96". Since 96" is only 8', I
would think that the coil you made would have a perimiter of 288". Try
and reduce the coil to 3 turns, but don't cut the wire off. The leads
from the unit to the coil should be twisted together or you can get
some funny results due to stray pick-up. Normally, the unit should not
pick up the car until it is on top of the coil--it sounds like you
have too much sensitivity--which is why I suggest reducing the coil
turns. I have also never seen more than 2 or 3 turn coils, but that
does not mean much.
I cannot say I have seen any really narrow coils like you describe,
but some on driveways are like 4' x 3' and the newer ones on the
highway are about a 4' circle [neat machine that cuts the circular
slot in the road surface]. Size and configuration are THE important
thing in these coils, so it needs to be right for that unit. It is
really not much different that getting a radio back loop antenna to
track the tuning dial--a fair bit of cut-and- try.

Neil

 

[klem kedidelhopper]

On Oct 13, 12:19 pm, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:

On Oct 13, 5:37 am, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:





On Oct 12, 10:48 am, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:

On Oct 12, 6:12 am, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:

I have this unit which I installed many years ago in a new fast food
business. The restaurant failed shortly after it was installed and I
got the equipment back. So in essence it is like brand new.and was
operational when it was removed from service.

The unit is a self contained box with loop sense wires and isolated
spdt relay wires. It operates from 120V. The loop was buried in the
driveway and so I was unable to retrieve that part of the system.

Installation was rather simple. Unfortunately I can't find the
installation instructions however I do recall that we had to cut the
asphalt driveway and bury a loop of AWG. 14 cable. The loop would
sense a large mass of metal over it such as a car, (as opposed  to a
non metallic mass), at a drive through and operate a form C relay. I
would like to set this unit up in my own driveway now however the
problem is I don't remember the configuration of the loop, IE how many
turns there were in the loop or its diameter. Actually I think that we
buried it down 8 inches or so and that it was rectangular shaped but
I'm just not sure.

There is no longer a listing for Detector systems however the strange
thing is the number 917-1 does come up as some kind of driveway sensor
but I can't seem to find any information on it.

I would think that this type of unit must be similar to those that are
used at intersections for traffic light control but I'm not sure how
to find that information.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of sensor who can
advise me as to the sense loop characteristics?  Thanks for any
assistance, Lenny

A few thoughts on these sensors. Generally, the loop is non critical
and the unit automatically compensates for variation. The loop is
somewhat standardized since one does not dig up the road to change the
loop if the detector unit needs replacing. I seem to recall that the
loop is typically about 4' x 8' and about 2 or three turns. One could
easily tape a test coil to the driveway and try it out. Usually, the
coil is buried about 3-4" into the asphalt.
Try looking up the oldest sensor info you can find [Eagle signals?]
and see what info it has on the coil.
Usually, the connections on the quality sensors is by a single 'MS'
type circular connector with 8 connections. You should be able to open
the case and trace the pinout. Connections should be: AC input [line,
neutral, ground], Output [NC, COM, NO] and LOOP.
You could also check with your local roads department's electrical
shop. Good luck!

Neil S.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi Neil
I made a coil in the configuration you described out of 14AWG. wire.
The coil is 4 turns of wire with a 4 X 8 rectangular shape. The
perimeter is 96" approximately. I just realized that this is a larger
perimeter than you suggested so I wonder if that might cause a
stability problem such as I'm having? The funny thing is with this
coil the control unit will sometimes detect the vehicle every time on
the approach, (within 2 feet of the car even before the car passes
over it. At other times there is no detection at all. I tried the
different modes, pulse, 2 second delay, presence,  and messed with the
sensitivity. So I'm wondering if I need more or less turns or maybe a
different loop size.
I could be wrong because this was a long time ago but the driveway may
have been about 8 feet wide. The cuts we made for the coil may have
been much narrower than this coil. Those cuts could have been 8 feet
by say 4 or 5 inches or so. Do you think that could have been
possible.? Would configuration and size cause a reliability problem
such as I'm having? This is so frustrating. I know that the system
worked well at the time. I just can't remember exactly what we did.
Thanks for any further input. Lenny- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Lenny, I am a bit puzzled by your coil description. You say it is 4 x
8 and 4 turns, but has a perimiter of 96". Since 96" is only 8', I
would think that the coil you made would have a perimiter of 288". Try
and reduce the coil to 3 turns, but don't cut the wire off. The leads
from the unit to the coil should be twisted together or you can get
some funny results due to stray pick-up. Normally, the unit should not
pick up the car until it is on top of the coil--it sounds like you
have too much sensitivity--which is why I suggest reducing the coil
turns. I have also never seen more than 2 or 3 turn coils, but that
does not mean much.
I cannot say I have seen any really narrow coils like you describe,
but some on driveways are like 4' x 3' and the newer ones on the
highway are about a 4' circle [neat machine that cuts the circular
slot in the road surface]. Size and configuration are THE important
thing in these coils, so it needs to be right for that unit. It is
really not much different that getting a radio back loop antenna to
track the tuning dial--a fair bit of cut-and- try.

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi Neil
You were correct. The coil is comprised of two 96" sections and two
48" sections for an approximate total of 288".
You mentioned that the coil I constructed might make the system too
sensitive. If that were the case then why does it trip the unit
sometimes and just as the car approaches and then not at all at other
times? I would think that too sensitive would cause false tripping to
occur at random times as well. but I'm not really seeing that. but for
certain, I'm no expert with this type of equipment. I'm going to take
one turn off the existing coil however I didn't quite understand what
you meant by "not cutting the wires". If I reduce the number of turns
to 3 and not cut the wire I will have one lead longer than the other.
That in itself I would think would cause an imbalance. Should I then
just add the difference onto the shorter lead, twist them together and
then connect to the short pair of twisted wires (loop), coming out of
the unit?.
Also one other thing concerns me. right now we're just testing this
system with a coil laying on the ground and the controller connected
to it right there. If I do get this thing working reliably, ultimately
the coil will be buried about 150 -200 feet from the house. I planned
to run two conductor sheilded cable, burried and grounded on the unit
end out to the coil. Alot of work. What is the chance that the
addition of this cable may alter the impedance of the system to the
point of putting me right back to where I am now? Lenny

 

[klem kedidelhopper]

On Oct 13, 1:32 pm, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Oct 13, 12:19 pm, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:





On Oct 13, 5:37 am, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:

On Oct 12, 10:48 am, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:

On Oct 12, 6:12 am, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:

I have this unit which I installed many years ago in a new fast food
business. The restaurant failed shortly after it was installed and I
got the equipment back. So in essence it is like brand new.and was
operational when it was removed from service.

The unit is a self contained box with loop sense wires and isolated
spdt relay wires. It operates from 120V. The loop was buried in the
driveway and so I was unable to retrieve that part of the system.

Installation was rather simple. Unfortunately I can't find the
installation instructions however I do recall that we had to cut the
asphalt driveway and bury a loop of AWG. 14 cable. The loop would
sense a large mass of metal over it such as a car, (as opposed  to a
non metallic mass), at a drive through and operate a form C relay.. I
would like to set this unit up in my own driveway now however the
problem is I don't remember the configuration of the loop, IE how many
turns there were in the loop or its diameter. Actually I think that we
buried it down 8 inches or so and that it was rectangular shaped but
I'm just not sure.

There is no longer a listing for Detector systems however the strange
thing is the number 917-1 does come up as some kind of driveway sensor
but I can't seem to find any information on it.

I would think that this type of unit must be similar to those that are
used at intersections for traffic light control but I'm not sure how
to find that information.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of sensor who can
advise me as to the sense loop characteristics?  Thanks for any
assistance, Lenny

A few thoughts on these sensors. Generally, the loop is non critical
and the unit automatically compensates for variation. The loop is
somewhat standardized since one does not dig up the road to change the
loop if the detector unit needs replacing. I seem to recall that the
loop is typically about 4' x 8' and about 2 or three turns. One could
easily tape a test coil to the driveway and try it out. Usually, the
coil is buried about 3-4" into the asphalt.
Try looking up the oldest sensor info you can find [Eagle signals?]
and see what info it has on the coil.
Usually, the connections on the quality sensors is by a single 'MS'
type circular connector with 8 connections. You should be able to open
the case and trace the pinout. Connections should be: AC input [line,
neutral, ground], Output [NC, COM, NO] and LOOP.
You could also check with your local roads department's electrical
shop. Good luck!

Neil S.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi Neil
I made a coil in the configuration you described out of 14AWG. wire.
The coil is 4 turns of wire with a 4 X 8 rectangular shape. The
perimeter is 96" approximately. I just realized that this is a larger
perimeter than you suggested so I wonder if that might cause a
stability problem such as I'm having? The funny thing is with this
coil the control unit will sometimes detect the vehicle every time on
the approach, (within 2 feet of the car even before the car passes
over it. At other times there is no detection at all. I tried the
different modes, pulse, 2 second delay, presence,  and messed with the
sensitivity. So I'm wondering if I need more or less turns or maybe a
different loop size.
I could be wrong because this was a long time ago but the driveway may
have been about 8 feet wide. The cuts we made for the coil may have
been much narrower than this coil. Those cuts could have been 8 feet
by say 4 or 5 inches or so. Do you think that could have been
possible.? Would configuration and size cause a reliability problem
such as I'm having? This is so frustrating. I know that the system
worked well at the time. I just can't remember exactly what we did.
Thanks for any further input. Lenny- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Lenny, I am a bit puzzled by your coil description. You say it is 4 x
8 and 4 turns, but has a perimiter of 96". Since 96" is only 8', I
would think that the coil you made would have a perimiter of 288". Try
and reduce the coil to 3 turns, but don't cut the wire off. The leads
from the unit to the coil should be twisted together or you can get
some funny results due to stray pick-up. Normally, the unit should not
pick up the car until it is on top of the coil--it sounds like you
have too much sensitivity--which is why I suggest reducing the coil
turns. I have also never seen more than 2 or 3 turn coils, but that
does not mean much.
I cannot say I have seen any really narrow coils like you describe,
but some on driveways are like 4' x 3' and the newer ones on the
highway are about a 4' circle [neat machine that cuts the circular
slot in the road surface]. Size and configuration are THE important
thing in these coils, so it needs to be right for that unit. It is
really not much different that getting a radio back loop antenna to
track the tuning dial--a fair bit of cut-and- try.

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi Neil
You were correct. The coil is comprised of two 96" sections and two
48" sections for an approximate  total of 288".
You mentioned that the coil I constructed might make the system too
sensitive. If that were the case then why does it trip the unit
sometimes and just as the car approaches and then not at all at other
times? I would think that too sensitive would cause false tripping to
occur at random times as well. but I'm not really seeing that. but for
certain, I'm no expert with this type of equipment. I'm going to take
one turn off the existing coil however I didn't quite understand what
you meant by "not cutting the wires". If I reduce the number of turns
to 3 and not cut the wire I will have one lead longer than the other.
That in itself I would think would cause an imbalance. Should I then
just add the difference onto the shorter lead, twist them together and
then connect to the short pair of twisted wires (loop), coming out of
the unit?.
Also one other thing concerns me. right now we're just testing this
system with a coil laying on the ground and the controller connected
to it right there. If I do get this thing working reliably, ultimately
the coil will be buried about 150 -200 feet from the house. I planned
to run two conductor sheilded cable, burried and grounded on the unit
end out to the coil. Alot of work. What is the chance that the
addition of this cable may alter the impedance of the system to the
point of putting me right back to where I am now? Lenny- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Neil
Just an update. I removed one turn from the coil and added the
difference onto the shorter wire. I twisted the wires together. so the
lead in so to speak is now about 290 or so inches of twisted pair 14
AWG. There are four dip switches in the control box. One is marked
"presence" and "pulse". Presence requires that the vehicle occupies
the space for two seconds in order to trip the relay. For fast food
restaurants and such I seem to remember that is the correct setting
but for simple detection like I need I think we want the "pulse"
setting. There is another switch marked "two second delay" and "off".
I think that switch is related to presence and pulse and so I set that
one "off". There are two other switches which I think are related to
sensitivity however their markings are very ambiguous. There seems to
be a high, med, and low combination of these printed on the circuit
board but it makes no sense at all. I'm not sure what those settings
are I did note though that when both these switches are in the off
position. the vehicle is detected when the front end is about two feet
from the coil. Sliding one of these switches to the right makes it so
that the vehicle has to have one foot of its front end over the coil..
So it would appear that this combination makes the system less
sensitive.
Another interesting observation was that moving the coil around a bit
with my foot would sometimes set off the relay. Maybe thats not a
valid test though. Lenny.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

nesesu wrote:

Lenny, I am a bit puzzled by your coil description. You say it is 4 x
8 and 4 turns, but has a perimiter of 96".

Try 96'. (4'+8'+4'+8') = 24' per turn, four 24' turns = 96'.


--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

 

[nesesu]

On Oct 13, 12:46 pm, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Oct 13, 1:32 pm, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:





On Oct 13, 12:19 pm, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:

On Oct 13, 5:37 am, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:

On Oct 12, 10:48 am, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:

On Oct 12, 6:12 am, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:

I have this unit which I installed many years ago in a new fast food
business. The restaurant failed shortly after it was installed and I
got the equipment back. So in essence it is like brand new.and was
operational when it was removed from service.

The unit is a self contained box with loop sense wires and isolated
spdt relay wires. It operates from 120V. The loop was buried in the
driveway and so I was unable to retrieve that part of the system.

Installation was rather simple. Unfortunately I can't find the
installation instructions however I do recall that we had to cut the
asphalt driveway and bury a loop of AWG. 14 cable. The loop would
sense a large mass of metal over it such as a car, (as opposed  to a
non metallic mass), at a drive through and operate a form C relay. I
would like to set this unit up in my own driveway now however the
problem is I don't remember the configuration of the loop, IE how many
turns there were in the loop or its diameter. Actually I think that we
buried it down 8 inches or so and that it was rectangular shaped but
I'm just not sure.

There is no longer a listing for Detector systems however the strange
thing is the number 917-1 does come up as some kind of driveway sensor
but I can't seem to find any information on it.

I would think that this type of unit must be similar to those that are
used at intersections for traffic light control but I'm not sure how
to find that information.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of sensor who can
advise me as to the sense loop characteristics?  Thanks for any
assistance, Lenny

A few thoughts on these sensors. Generally, the loop is non critical
and the unit automatically compensates for variation. The loop is
somewhat standardized since one does not dig up the road to change the
loop if the detector unit needs replacing. I seem to recall that the
loop is typically about 4' x 8' and about 2 or three turns. One could
easily tape a test coil to the driveway and try it out. Usually, the
coil is buried about 3-4" into the asphalt.
Try looking up the oldest sensor info you can find [Eagle signals?]
and see what info it has on the coil.
Usually, the connections on the quality sensors is by a single 'MS'
type circular connector with 8 connections. You should be able to open
the case and trace the pinout. Connections should be: AC input [line,
neutral, ground], Output [NC, COM, NO] and LOOP.
You could also check with your local roads department's electrical
shop. Good luck!

Neil S.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi Neil
I made a coil in the configuration you described out of 14AWG. wire..
The coil is 4 turns of wire with a 4 X 8 rectangular shape. The
perimeter is 96" approximately. I just realized that this is a larger
perimeter than you suggested so I wonder if that might cause a
stability problem such as I'm having? The funny thing is with this
coil the control unit will sometimes detect the vehicle every time on
the approach, (within 2 feet of the car even before the car passes
over it. At other times there is no detection at all. I tried the
different modes, pulse, 2 second delay, presence,  and messed with the
sensitivity. So I'm wondering if I need more or less turns or maybe a
different loop size.
I could be wrong because this was a long time ago but the driveway may
have been about 8 feet wide. The cuts we made for the coil may have
been much narrower than this coil. Those cuts could have been 8 feet
by say 4 or 5 inches or so. Do you think that could have been
possible.? Would configuration and size cause a reliability problem
such as I'm having? This is so frustrating. I know that the system
worked well at the time. I just can't remember exactly what we did.
Thanks for any further input. Lenny- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Lenny, I am a bit puzzled by your coil description. You say it is 4 x
8 and 4 turns, but has a perimiter of 96". Since 96" is only 8', I
would think that the coil you made would have a perimiter of 288". Try
and reduce the coil to 3 turns, but don't cut the wire off. The leads
from the unit to the coil should be twisted together or you can get
some funny results due to stray pick-up. Normally, the unit should not
pick up the car until it is on top of the coil--it sounds like you
have too much sensitivity--which is why I suggest reducing the coil
turns. I have also never seen more than 2 or 3 turn coils, but that
does not mean much.
I cannot say I have seen any really narrow coils like you describe,
but some on driveways are like 4' x 3' and the newer ones on the
highway are about a 4' circle [neat machine that cuts the circular
slot in the road surface]. Size and configuration are THE important
thing in these coils, so it needs to be right for that unit. It is
really not much different that getting a radio back loop antenna to
track the tuning dial--a fair bit of cut-and- try.

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi Neil
You were correct. The coil is comprised of two 96" sections and two
48" sections for an approximate  total of 288".
You mentioned that the coil I constructed might make the system too
sensitive. If that were the case then why does it trip the unit
sometimes and just as the car approaches and then not at all at other
times? I would think that too sensitive would cause false tripping to
occur at random times as well. but I'm not really seeing that. but for
certain, I'm no expert with this type of equipment. I'm going to take
one turn off the existing coil however I didn't quite understand what
you meant by "not cutting the wires". If I reduce the number of turns
to 3 and not cut the wire I will have one lead longer than the other.
That in itself I would think would cause an imbalance. Should I then
just add the difference onto the shorter lead, twist them together and
then connect to the short pair of twisted wires (loop), coming out of
the unit?.
Also one other thing concerns me. right now we're just testing this
system with a coil laying on the ground and the controller connected
to it right there. If I do get this thing working reliably, ultimately
the coil will be buried about 150 -200 feet from the house. I planned
to run two conductor sheilded cable, burried and grounded on the unit
end out to the coil. Alot of work. What is the chance that the
addition of this cable may alter the impedance of the system to the
point of putting me right back to where I am now? Lenny- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Neil
Just an update. I removed one turn from the coil and added the
difference onto the shorter wire. I twisted the wires together. so the
lead in so to speak is now about 290 or so inches of twisted pair 14
AWG. There are four dip switches in the control box. One is marked
"presence" and "pulse". Presence requires that the vehicle occupies
the space for two seconds in order to trip the relay. For fast food
restaurants and such I seem to remember that is the correct setting
but for simple detection like I need I think we want the "pulse"
setting. There is another switch marked "two second delay" and "off".
I think that switch is related to presence and pulse and so I set that
one "off". There are two other switches which I think are related to
sensitivity however their markings are very ambiguous. There seems to
be a high, med, and low combination of these printed on the circuit
board but it makes no sense at all. I'm not sure what those settings
are I did note though that when both these switches are in the off
position. the vehicle is detected when the front end is about two feet
from the coil. Sliding one of these switches to the right makes it so
that the vehicle has to have one foot of its front end over the coil..
So it would appear that this combination makes the system less
sensitive.
Another interesting observation was that moving the coil around a bit
with my foot would sometimes set off the relay. Maybe thats not a
valid test though. Lenny.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So, Lenny, is the unit working more reliably with the fewer turn coil?
or with the sensitivity set lower?
I have a feeler out to the signals engineer for the City of Richmond
to see if he has any data on coils and especially for your make/model.
Give that a couple of days and I might have something for you.
I don't know how long a pair you can run to the coil, but since the
detectors are installed in the control cubical it is reasonable that
the run to the furthest pick up coil at a large intersection could be
as much as 150-200 feet.
Disturbing the coil mechanically [kicking it with your foot] could
quite concievably affect it enough to trigger the detector.

Neil

 

[nesesu]

On Oct 13, 12:46 pm, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Oct 13, 1:32 pm, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:





On Oct 13, 12:19 pm, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:

On Oct 13, 5:37 am, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:

On Oct 12, 10:48 am, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:

On Oct 12, 6:12 am, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:

I have this unit which I installed many years ago in a new fast food
business. The restaurant failed shortly after it was installed and I
got the equipment back. So in essence it is like brand new.and was
operational when it was removed from service.

The unit is a self contained box with loop sense wires and isolated
spdt relay wires. It operates from 120V. The loop was buried in the
driveway and so I was unable to retrieve that part of the system.

Installation was rather simple. Unfortunately I can't find the
installation instructions however I do recall that we had to cut the
asphalt driveway and bury a loop of AWG. 14 cable. The loop would
sense a large mass of metal over it such as a car, (as opposed  to a
non metallic mass), at a drive through and operate a form C relay. I
would like to set this unit up in my own driveway now however the
problem is I don't remember the configuration of the loop, IE how many
turns there were in the loop or its diameter. Actually I think that we
buried it down 8 inches or so and that it was rectangular shaped but
I'm just not sure.

There is no longer a listing for Detector systems however the strange
thing is the number 917-1 does come up as some kind of driveway sensor
but I can't seem to find any information on it.

I would think that this type of unit must be similar to those that are
used at intersections for traffic light control but I'm not sure how
to find that information.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of sensor who can
advise me as to the sense loop characteristics?  Thanks for any
assistance, Lenny

A few thoughts on these sensors. Generally, the loop is non critical
and the unit automatically compensates for variation. The loop is
somewhat standardized since one does not dig up the road to change the
loop if the detector unit needs replacing. I seem to recall that the
loop is typically about 4' x 8' and about 2 or three turns. One could
easily tape a test coil to the driveway and try it out. Usually, the
coil is buried about 3-4" into the asphalt.
Try looking up the oldest sensor info you can find [Eagle signals?]
and see what info it has on the coil.
Usually, the connections on the quality sensors is by a single 'MS'
type circular connector with 8 connections. You should be able to open
the case and trace the pinout. Connections should be: AC input [line,
neutral, ground], Output [NC, COM, NO] and LOOP.
You could also check with your local roads department's electrical
shop. Good luck!

Neil S.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi Neil
I made a coil in the configuration you described out of 14AWG. wire..
The coil is 4 turns of wire with a 4 X 8 rectangular shape. The
perimeter is 96" approximately. I just realized that this is a larger
perimeter than you suggested so I wonder if that might cause a
stability problem such as I'm having? The funny thing is with this
coil the control unit will sometimes detect the vehicle every time on
the approach, (within 2 feet of the car even before the car passes
over it. At other times there is no detection at all. I tried the
different modes, pulse, 2 second delay, presence,  and messed with the
sensitivity. So I'm wondering if I need more or less turns or maybe a
different loop size.
I could be wrong because this was a long time ago but the driveway may
have been about 8 feet wide. The cuts we made for the coil may have
been much narrower than this coil. Those cuts could have been 8 feet
by say 4 or 5 inches or so. Do you think that could have been
possible.? Would configuration and size cause a reliability problem
such as I'm having? This is so frustrating. I know that the system
worked well at the time. I just can't remember exactly what we did.
Thanks for any further input. Lenny- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Lenny, I am a bit puzzled by your coil description. You say it is 4 x
8 and 4 turns, but has a perimiter of 96". Since 96" is only 8', I
would think that the coil you made would have a perimiter of 288". Try
and reduce the coil to 3 turns, but don't cut the wire off. The leads
from the unit to the coil should be twisted together or you can get
some funny results due to stray pick-up. Normally, the unit should not
pick up the car until it is on top of the coil--it sounds like you
have too much sensitivity--which is why I suggest reducing the coil
turns. I have also never seen more than 2 or 3 turn coils, but that
does not mean much.
I cannot say I have seen any really narrow coils like you describe,
but some on driveways are like 4' x 3' and the newer ones on the
highway are about a 4' circle [neat machine that cuts the circular
slot in the road surface]. Size and configuration are THE important
thing in these coils, so it needs to be right for that unit. It is
really not much different that getting a radio back loop antenna to
track the tuning dial--a fair bit of cut-and- try.

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi Neil
You were correct. The coil is comprised of two 96" sections and two
48" sections for an approximate  total of 288".
You mentioned that the coil I constructed might make the system too
sensitive. If that were the case then why does it trip the unit
sometimes and just as the car approaches and then not at all at other
times? I would think that too sensitive would cause false tripping to
occur at random times as well. but I'm not really seeing that. but for
certain, I'm no expert with this type of equipment. I'm going to take
one turn off the existing coil however I didn't quite understand what
you meant by "not cutting the wires". If I reduce the number of turns
to 3 and not cut the wire I will have one lead longer than the other.
That in itself I would think would cause an imbalance. Should I then
just add the difference onto the shorter lead, twist them together and
then connect to the short pair of twisted wires (loop), coming out of
the unit?.
Also one other thing concerns me. right now we're just testing this
system with a coil laying on the ground and the controller connected
to it right there. If I do get this thing working reliably, ultimately
the coil will be buried about 150 -200 feet from the house. I planned
to run two conductor sheilded cable, burried and grounded on the unit
end out to the coil. Alot of work. What is the chance that the
addition of this cable may alter the impedance of the system to the
point of putting me right back to where I am now? Lenny- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Neil
Just an update. I removed one turn from the coil and added the
difference onto the shorter wire. I twisted the wires together. so the
lead in so to speak is now about 290 or so inches of twisted pair 14
AWG. There are four dip switches in the control box. One is marked
"presence" and "pulse". Presence requires that the vehicle occupies
the space for two seconds in order to trip the relay. For fast food
restaurants and such I seem to remember that is the correct setting
but for simple detection like I need I think we want the "pulse"
setting. There is another switch marked "two second delay" and "off".
I think that switch is related to presence and pulse and so I set that
one "off". There are two other switches which I think are related to
sensitivity however their markings are very ambiguous. There seems to
be a high, med, and low combination of these printed on the circuit
board but it makes no sense at all. I'm not sure what those settings
are I did note though that when both these switches are in the off
position. the vehicle is detected when the front end is about two feet
from the coil. Sliding one of these switches to the right makes it so
that the vehicle has to have one foot of its front end over the coil..
So it would appear that this combination makes the system less
sensitive.
Another interesting observation was that moving the coil around a bit
with my foot would sometimes set off the relay. Maybe thats not a
valid test though. Lenny.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Lenny, here is the instruction manual for that detector. It lists the
coil configuration data as well as sensitivity settings and so on. Let
me know how it works!
http://www.3m.com/us/mfg_industrial/foodservice/Accessories/Loop%20Information/917-1%20Loop%20Detector%20Installation%20Instr.PDF

Neil

 

[hrhofmann@att.net]

On Oct 13, 6:03 pm, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:

On Oct 13, 12:46 pm, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:





On Oct 13, 1:32 pm, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:

On Oct 13, 12:19 pm, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:

On Oct 13, 5:37 am, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:

On Oct 12, 10:48 am, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:

On Oct 12, 6:12 am, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:

I have this unit which I installed many years ago in a new fast food
business. The restaurant failed shortly after it was installed and I
got the equipment back. So in essence it is like brand new.and was
operational when it was removed from service.

The unit is a self contained box with loop sense wires and isolated
spdt relay wires. It operates from 120V. The loop was buried in the
driveway and so I was unable to retrieve that part of the system.

Installation was rather simple. Unfortunately I can't find the
installation instructions however I do recall that we had to cut the
asphalt driveway and bury a loop of AWG. 14 cable. The loop would
sense a large mass of metal over it such as a car, (as opposed  to a
non metallic mass), at a drive through and operate a form C relay. I
would like to set this unit up in my own driveway now however the
problem is I don't remember the configuration of the loop, IE how many
turns there were in the loop or its diameter. Actually I think that we
buried it down 8 inches or so and that it was rectangular shaped but
I'm just not sure.

There is no longer a listing for Detector systems however the strange
thing is the number 917-1 does come up as some kind of driveway sensor
but I can't seem to find any information on it.

I would think that this type of unit must be similar to those that are
used at intersections for traffic light control but I'm not sure how
to find that information.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of sensor who can
advise me as to the sense loop characteristics?  Thanks for any
assistance, Lenny

A few thoughts on these sensors. Generally, the loop is non critical
and the unit automatically compensates for variation. The loop is
somewhat standardized since one does not dig up the road to change the
loop if the detector unit needs replacing. I seem to recall that the
loop is typically about 4' x 8' and about 2 or three turns. One could
easily tape a test coil to the driveway and try it out. Usually, the
coil is buried about 3-4" into the asphalt.
Try looking up the oldest sensor info you can find [Eagle signals?]
and see what info it has on the coil.
Usually, the connections on the quality sensors is by a single 'MS'
type circular connector with 8 connections. You should be able to open
the case and trace the pinout. Connections should be: AC input [line,
neutral, ground], Output [NC, COM, NO] and LOOP.
You could also check with your local roads department's electrical
shop. Good luck!

Neil S.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi Neil
I made a coil in the configuration you described out of 14AWG. wire.
The coil is 4 turns of wire with a 4 X 8 rectangular shape. The
perimeter is 96" approximately. I just realized that this is a larger
perimeter than you suggested so I wonder if that might cause a
stability problem such as I'm having? The funny thing is with this
coil the control unit will sometimes detect the vehicle every time on
the approach, (within 2 feet of the car even before the car passes
over it. At other times there is no detection at all. I tried the
different modes, pulse, 2 second delay, presence,  and messed with the
sensitivity. So I'm wondering if I need more or less turns or maybe a
different loop size.
I could be wrong because this was a long time ago but the driveway may
have been about 8 feet wide. The cuts we made for the coil may have
been much narrower than this coil. Those cuts could have been 8 feet
by say 4 or 5 inches or so. Do you think that could have been
possible.? Would configuration and size cause a reliability problem
such as I'm having? This is so frustrating. I know that the system
worked well at the time. I just can't remember exactly what we did.
Thanks for any further input. Lenny- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Lenny, I am a bit puzzled by your coil description. You say it is 4 x
8 and 4 turns, but has a perimiter of 96". Since 96" is only 8', I
would think that the coil you made would have a perimiter of 288". Try
and reduce the coil to 3 turns, but don't cut the wire off. The leads
from the unit to the coil should be twisted together or you can get
some funny results due to stray pick-up. Normally, the unit should not
pick up the car until it is on top of the coil--it sounds like you
have too much sensitivity--which is why I suggest reducing the coil
turns. I have also never seen more than 2 or 3 turn coils, but that
does not mean much.
I cannot say I have seen any really narrow coils like you describe,
but some on driveways are like 4' x 3' and the newer ones on the
highway are about a 4' circle [neat machine that cuts the circular
slot in the road surface]. Size and configuration are THE important
thing in these coils, so it needs to be right for that unit. It is
really not much different that getting a radio back loop antenna to
track the tuning dial--a fair bit of cut-and- try.

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi Neil
You were correct. The coil is comprised of two 96" sections and two
48" sections for an approximate  total of 288".
You mentioned that the coil I constructed might make the system too
sensitive. If that were the case then why does it trip the unit
sometimes and just as the car approaches and then not at all at other
times? I would think that too sensitive would cause false tripping to
occur at random times as well. but I'm not really seeing that. but for
certain, I'm no expert with this type of equipment. I'm going to take
one turn off the existing coil however I didn't quite understand what
you meant by "not cutting the wires". If I reduce the number of turns
to 3 and not cut the wire I will have one lead longer than the other.
That in itself I would think would cause an imbalance. Should I then
just add the difference onto the shorter lead, twist them together and
then connect to the short pair of twisted wires (loop), coming out of
the unit?.
Also one other thing concerns me. right now we're just testing this
system with a coil laying on the ground and the controller connected
to it right there. If I do get this thing working reliably, ultimately
the coil will be buried about 150 -200 feet from the house. I planned
to run two conductor sheilded cable, burried and grounded on the unit
end out to the coil. Alot of work. What is the chance that the
addition of this cable may alter the impedance of the system to the
point of putting me right back to where I am now? Lenny- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Neil
Just an update. I removed one turn from the coil and added the
difference onto the shorter wire. I twisted the wires together. so the
lead in so to speak is now about 290 or so inches of twisted pair 14
AWG. There are four dip switches in the control box. One is marked
"presence" and "pulse". Presence requires that the vehicle occupies
the space for two seconds in order to trip the relay. For fast food
restaurants and such I seem to remember that is the correct setting
but for simple detection like I need I think we want the "pulse"
setting. There is another switch marked "two second delay" and "off".
I think that switch is related to presence and pulse and so I set that
one "off". There are two other switches which I think are related to
sensitivity however their markings are very ambiguous. There seems to
be a high, med, and low combination of these printed on the circuit
board but it makes no sense at all. I'm not sure what those settings
are I did note though that when both these switches are in the off
position. the vehicle is detected when the front end is about two feet
from the coil. Sliding one of these switches to the right makes it so
that the vehicle has to have one foot of its front end over the coil..
So it would appear that this combination makes the system less
sensitive.
Another interesting observation was that moving the coil around a bit
with my foot would sometimes set off the relay. Maybe thats not a
valid test though. Lenny.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Lenny, here is the instruction manual for that detector. It lists the
coil configuration data as well as sensitivity settings and so on. Let
me know how it works!http://www.3m.com/us/mfg_industrial/foodservice/Accessories/Loop%20In...

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

How did you locate the manual?

 

[nesesu]

On Oct 13, 8:42 pm, "hrhofm...@att.net" <hrhofm...@att.net> wrote:

How did you locate the manual?

Third item shown when I Googled "Detector Systems model 917-1".

Neil S.

 

[klem kedidelhopper]

On Oct 14, 1:21 am, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:

On Oct 13, 8:42 pm, "hrhofm...@att.net" <hrhofm...@att.net> wrote:

How did you locate the manual?

Third item shown when I Googled "Detector Systems model 917-1".

Neil S.

Neil
Last night I connected about 100 feet of 2 conductor 16AWG. sheilded
cable to the test loop and ran it into the house. The sheild is
grounded on the controller end. The modified coil with three turns and
a 4 ft by 8 ft. perimeter now and a total length of approximately 72
feet is laying in the driveway.With the dip switch sensitivity
combination I found the controller seems to detect a vehicle on the
approach every time now. We're in New Hampshire so the real test will
probably come when the coil is buried and the ground is frozen with
ice and snow on top.
Thank you very much for finding and sending me that manual. The
interesting thing is that although it is indeed for a "917-1", it is
marked 3M. I guess that 3M must have bought out detector Systems and
simply put their own name on the unit. It does appear to be the same
unit as mine though.
In comparing the manual 's coil specifications to mine the manual
calls for a coil consisting of an 18" x 54" loop with 5 or 6 turns of
16AWG. cable. Therefore the total amount of wire in that coil will be
[(18+54) X 2] x 6
[(18+54) x 2] = 144
Then 144 X 6 = 864
854/ 12 = 72ft.
So it seems that although their coil uses more turns of wire, the
total wire length of theirs and my present test coil is the same. In
your opinion, what is the significance of more turns as opposed to
larger perimeter? I'm concerned of course with system reliability and
naturally repeatability. If this thing fails to detect even one time
it will be useless to us. And I certainly won't be digging it up in
January. Would I be better off with building and burying their smaller
coil with more turns or the one I'm trying out now? Thanks, Lenny.

 

[klem kedidelhopper]

On Oct 14, 1:21 am, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:

On Oct 13, 8:42 pm, "hrhofm...@att.net" <hrhofm...@att.net> wrote:

How did you locate the manual?

Third item shown when I Googled "Detector Systems model 917-1".

Neil S.

Neil
Last night I connected about 100 feet of 2 conductor 16AWG. sheilded
cable to the test loop and ran it into the house. The sheild is
grounded on the controller end. The modified coil with three turns and
a 4 ft by 8 ft. perimeter now and a total length of approximately 72
feet is laying in the driveway.With the dip switch sensitivity
combination I found the controller seems to detect a vehicle on the
approach every time now. We're in New Hampshire so the real test will
probably come when the coil is buried and the ground is frozen with
ice and snow on top.
Thank you very much for finding and sending me that manual. The
interesting thing is that although it is indeed for a "917-1", it is
marked 3M. I guess that 3M must have bought out detector Systems and
simply put their own name on the unit. It does appear to be the same
unit as mine though.
In comparing the manual 's coil specifications to mine the manual
calls for a coil consisting of an 18" x 54" loop with 5 or 6 turns of
16AWG. cable. Therefore the total amount of wire in that coil will be
[(18+54) X 2] x 6
[(18+54) x 2] = 144
Then 144 X 6 = 864
854/ 12 = 72ft.
So it seems that although their coil uses more turns of wire, the
total wire length of theirs and my present test coil is the same. In
your opinion, what is the significance of more turns as opposed to
larger perimeter? I'm concerned of course with system reliability and
naturally repeatability. If this thing fails to detect even one time
it will be useless to us. And I certainly won't be digging it up in
January. Would I be better off with building and burying their smaller
coil with more turns or the one I'm trying out now? Thanks, Lenny.

 

[klem kedidelhopper]

On Oct 14, 1:21 am, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:

On Oct 13, 8:42 pm, "hrhofm...@att.net" <hrhofm...@att.net> wrote:

How did you locate the manual?

Third item shown when I Googled "Detector Systems model 917-1".

Neil S.

Having trouble posting. I don't know if this is going through.
Neil
Last night I connected about 100 feet of 2 conductor 16AWG. sheilded
cable to the test loop and ran it into the house. The sheild is
grounded on the controller end. The modified coil with three turns and
a 4 ft by 8 ft. perimeter now and a total length of approximately 72
feet is laying in the driveway.With the dip switch sensitivity
combination I found the controller seems to detect a vehicle on the
approach every time now. We're in New Hampshire so the real test will
probably come when the coil is buried and the ground is frozen with
ice and snow on top.
Thank you very much for finding and sending me that manual. The
interesting thing is that although it is indeed for a "917-1", it is
marked 3M. I guess that 3M must have bought out detector Systems and
simply put their own name on the unit. It does appear to be the same
unit as mine though.
In comparing the manual 's coil specifications to mine the manual
calls for a coil consisting of an 18" x 54" loop with 5 or 6 turns of
16AWG. cable. Therefore the total amount of wire in that coil will be
[(18+54) X 2] x 6
[(18+54) x 2] = 144
Then 144 X 6 = 864
854/ 12 = 72ft.
So it seems that although their coil uses more turns of wire, the
total wire length of theirs and my present test coil is the same. In
your opinion, what is the significance of more turns as opposed to
larger perimeter? I'm concerned of course with system reliability and
naturally repeatability. If this thing fails to detect even one time
it will be useless to us. And I certainly won't be digging it up in
January. Would I be better off with building and burying their smaller
coil with more turns or the one I'm trying out now? Thanks, Lenny.

 

[nesesu]

On Oct 14, 9:55 am, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Oct 14, 1:21 am, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:

On Oct 13, 8:42 pm, "hrhofm...@att.net" <hrhofm...@att.net> wrote:

How did you locate the manual?

Third item shown when I Googled "Detector Systems model 917-1".

Neil S.

Neil
Last night I connected about 100 feet of 2 conductor 16AWG. sheilded
cable to the test loop and ran it into the house. The sheild is
grounded on the controller end. The modified coil with three turns and
a 4 ft by 8 ft. perimeter now and a total length of approximately 72
feet is laying in the driveway.With the dip switch sensitivity
combination I found the controller seems to detect a vehicle on the
approach every time now. We're in New Hampshire so the real test will
probably come when the coil is buried and the ground is frozen with
ice and snow on top.
Thank you very much for finding and sending me that manual. The
interesting thing is that although it is indeed for a "917-1", it is
marked 3M. I guess that 3M must have bought out detector Systems and
simply put their own name on the unit. It does appear to be the same
unit as mine though.
In comparing the manual 's coil specifications to mine the manual
calls for a coil consisting of an 18" x 54" loop with 5 or 6 turns of
16AWG. cable. Therefore the total amount of wire in that coil will be
[(18+54) X 2] x 6
[(18+54) x 2] = 144
Then 144 X 6 = 864
854/ 12 = 72ft.
So it seems that although their coil uses more turns of wire, the
total wire length of theirs and my present test coil is the same. In
your opinion, what is the significance of more turns as opposed to
larger perimeter? I'm concerned of course with system reliability and
naturally repeatability. If this thing fails to detect even one time
it will be useless to us. And I certainly won't be digging it up in
January. Would I be better off with building and burying their smaller
coil with more turns or the one I'm trying out now? Thanks, Lenny.

Yes, Lenny, all three posting came through okay.
I would certainly reconfigure your coil to match the one specified in
the manual. Since the wire length is similar, it would not be a big
issue to to change it now and try that out. The manual does specify a
nominal loop inductance of 30 to 1000uH, so there is a lot of margin
designed in. If you have an inductance bridge, you could measure the
inductance of your existing coil and see where it falls in that range.
As far as operating in the cold/wet/ice, one will have to see, but
since it is self tuning it should be fine.
You say it must operate EVERY time, but that is expecting too much of
it. I would expect better than 99.9% sensing of 'normal' cars but
motorcycles and the like can be 'IFFY'. You will also have to expect
the occasional false trip due to abrupt weather changes [sudden rain
storm for example].

Neil

 

[JeffM]

klem kedidelhopper posted 3 times:
Would I be better off with building and burying
their smaller coil with more turns or[...]

nesesu wrote:
Yes, Lenny, all three posting came through okay.

Heh. Google Groups' quasi-annual takedown for maintenance.

Roughly 10AM - 3PM today.

Impatient posters using a Web interface to Usenet
should poll ANOTHER one of those *before* posting *again*.
(Google is NOT the only game in town.)
Here are some with reasonable latency:
http://www.electronicskb.com/Default.aspx
http://www.electrondepot.com/

 

[klem kedidelhopper]

On Oct 14, 7:48 pm, JeffM <jef...@email.com> wrote:

klem kedidelhopper posted 3 times:
Would I be better off with building and burying
their smaller coil with more turns or[...]

nesesu wrote:
Yes, Lenny, all three posting came through okay.

Heh.  Google Groups' quasi-annual takedown for maintenance.
Roughly 10AM - 3PM today.

Impatient posters using a Web interface to Usenet
should poll ANOTHER one of those *before* posting *again*.
(Google is NOT the only game in town.)
Here are some with reasonable latency:http://www.electronicskb.com/Default.aspxhttp://www.electrondepot.com/

Neil
When I said "every time" I wasn't thinking of motorcycles. My wife's
business which is run out of part of our home is a gift shop catering
primarily to women. The shop is off the main road. So considering the
clientele we're really not expecting too many bikes in here, and if
the occaisional one does come through and does not get detected then
its not the end of the world. No, I was referring to the mass of a
typical automobilie. The issue is that there are sometimes long
periods of time when there is no business. she doesn't want to have to
stay down there waiting for a customer to show up. This sensor will
allow her to turn out the lights and be in some other part of the
house until the alarm sounds. She can then run downstairs, turn on the
lights and be "open for business" And so far with the loop laying on
the ground its worked every time. You were right on the money with
your idea of three turns and a 4 X 8 footprint which is the 72 feet
the book talks about. I don't have an impedance bridge.so I can't
directly measure inductance, however the instructions did mention an
operating frequency of between 30 and 60 KHZ. I suppose that I could
look at this with the scope, determine exactly what it is and then
figure out a way to determine inductance if I really want to. But for
the time being I'm going to rewind the coil for the 6 turns the
instructions call for.
So now I need to ask for your advice again. Last year I rewired my
well. I pulled up 175 feet of the old wire and replaced it. The
conductors in that wire were continuous however the insulation was
scuffed and scraped and in some cases down to bare copper and no
longer servicable for well application. However I kept it around to
use for projects, such as this one..Well wire if you've ever worked
with it is typically three twisted conductors made from 14AWG. This
wire is apparently impervious to moisture because it runs right down
the well casing throught the water to the submersible pump. My present
test coil is made from some of that old wire.unwound to single srand.
The scuffed parts were taped up in places for purposes of this test
but it is not in good enough condition to put directly into the
ground. I have a gravel driveway and ultimately I will need to bury
the final coil amidst this abrasive material.. I could get some more
of this well wire or the instructions say that you can directly bury
THHN or a similar type of wire. My concern though is the dirt, stones,
sand, etc. which would be in constant cantact and abrading this wire.
I think that I would like to encase it somehow. ideally in PVC. Then
have some kind of an underground junction box to connect my sheilded
cable to. Do you have any ideas as to how to do this? Lenny

 

[nesesu]

On Oct 14, 8:37 pm, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Oct 14, 7:48 pm, JeffM <jef...@email.com> wrote:

klem kedidelhopper posted 3 times:
Would I be better off with building and burying
their smaller coil with more turns or[...]

nesesu wrote:
Yes, Lenny, all three posting came through okay.

Heh.  Google Groups' quasi-annual takedown for maintenance.
Roughly 10AM - 3PM today.

Impatient posters using a Web interface to Usenet
should poll ANOTHER one of those *before* posting *again*.
(Google is NOT the only game in town.)
Here are some with reasonable latency:http://www.electronicskb.com/Default.aspxhttp://www.electrondepot.com/

Neil
When I said "every time" I wasn't thinking of motorcycles. My wife's
business which is run out of part of our home is a gift shop catering
primarily to women. The shop is off the main road. So considering the
clientele we're really not expecting too many bikes in here, and if
the occaisional one does come through and does not get detected then
its not the end of the world. No, I was referring to the mass of a
typical automobilie. The issue is that there are sometimes long
periods of time when there is no business. she doesn't want to have to
stay down there waiting for a customer to show up. This sensor will
allow her to turn out the lights and be in some other part of the
house until the alarm sounds. She can then run downstairs, turn on the
lights and be "open for business" And so far with the loop laying on
the ground its worked every time. You were right on the money with
your idea of three turns and a 4 X 8 footprint which is the 72 feet
the book talks about. I don't have an impedance bridge.so I can't
directly measure inductance, however the instructions did mention an
operating frequency of between 30 and 60 KHZ. I suppose that I could
look at this with the scope, determine exactly what it is and then
figure out a way to determine inductance if I really want to. But for
the time being I'm going to rewind the coil for the 6 turns the
instructions call for.
So now I need to ask for your advice again. Last year I rewired my
well. I pulled up 175 feet of the old wire and replaced it. The
conductors in that wire were continuous however the insulation was
scuffed and scraped and in some cases down to bare copper and no
longer servicable for well application. However I kept it around to
use for projects, such as this one..Well wire if you've ever worked
with it is typically three twisted conductors made from 14AWG. This
wire is apparently impervious to moisture because it runs right down
the well casing throught the water to the submersible pump. My present
test coil is made from some of that old wire.unwound to single srand.
The scuffed parts were taped up in places for purposes of this test
but it is not in good enough condition to put directly into the
ground. I have a gravel driveway and ultimately I will need to bury
the final coil amidst this abrasive material.. I could get some more
of this well wire or the instructions say that you can directly bury
THHN or a similar type of wire. My concern though is the dirt, stones,
sand, etc. which would be in constant cantact and abrading this wire.
I think that I would like to encase it somehow. ideally in PVC. Then
have some kind of an underground junction box to connect my sheilded
cable to. Do you have any ideas as to how to do this? Lenny

Lenny, I think that the 'well pump wire' is stranded type TWU . In any
case it generally has a much thicker insulation intended exactly to
withstand high abrasion situations such as sliding in and out of well
casings or being directly buried in the ground. It would not survive
being shallow buried in a gravel drive for very long. If you can come
up with the needed length of normal TW or XLPE or the newer Nylon
coated wire, then I would suggest you buy some 1/2" PVC conduit,
couplings, glue, 4 90 degree sweep bends and an outlet box with two
1/2" hubs on one end and one hub on the other end as well as a blank
cover for the box. You then form the PVC pipe into the rectangular
coil form and pull in the wire around the loop the required 5 or 6
times and splice it to the shielded lead in in the box.
Please email me directly with your email address and I will send you a
sketch of how to form the pipe.
Naturally the pipe should be surrounded with coarse sand to pad it
from the stones, but since you should be staying within 3" - 4" of the
surface, you don't have a lot of margin for that.

Neil

 

[klem kedidelhopper]

On Oct 15, 11:58 am, nesesu <neil_sutcli...@telus.net> wrote:

On Oct 14, 8:37 pm, klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com
wrote:





On Oct 14, 7:48 pm, JeffM <jef...@email.com> wrote:

klem kedidelhopper posted 3 times:
Would I be better off with building and burying
their smaller coil with more turns or[...]

nesesu wrote:
Yes, Lenny, all three posting came through okay.

Heh.  Google Groups' quasi-annual takedown for maintenance.
Roughly 10AM - 3PM today.

Impatient posters using a Web interface to Usenet
should poll ANOTHER one of those *before* posting *again*.
(Google is NOT the only game in town.)
Here are some with reasonable latency:http://www.electronicskb.com/Default.aspxhttp://www.electrondepot.com/

Neil
When I said "every time" I wasn't thinking of motorcycles. My wife's
business which is run out of part of our home is a gift shop catering
primarily to women. The shop is off the main road. So considering the
clientele we're really not expecting too many bikes in here, and if
the occaisional one does come through and does not get detected then
its not the end of the world. No, I was referring to the mass of a
typical automobilie. The issue is that there are sometimes long
periods of time when there is no business. she doesn't want to have to
stay down there waiting for a customer to show up. This sensor will
allow her to turn out the lights and be in some other part of the
house until the alarm sounds. She can then run downstairs, turn on the
lights and be "open for business" And so far with the loop laying on
the ground its worked every time. You were right on the money with
your idea of three turns and a 4 X 8 footprint which is the 72 feet
the book talks about. I don't have an impedance bridge.so I can't
directly measure inductance, however the instructions did mention an
operating frequency of between 30 and 60 KHZ. I suppose that I could
look at this with the scope, determine exactly what it is and then
figure out a way to determine inductance if I really want to. But for
the time being I'm going to rewind the coil for the 6 turns the
instructions call for.
So now I need to ask for your advice again. Last year I rewired my
well. I pulled up 175 feet of the old wire and replaced it. The
conductors in that wire were continuous however the insulation was
scuffed and scraped and in some cases down to bare copper and no
longer servicable for well application. However I kept it around to
use for projects, such as this one..Well wire if you've ever worked
with it is typically three twisted conductors made from 14AWG. This
wire is apparently impervious to moisture because it runs right down
the well casing throught the water to the submersible pump. My present
test coil is made from some of that old wire.unwound to single srand.
The scuffed parts were taped up in places for purposes of this test
but it is not in good enough condition to put directly into the
ground. I have a gravel driveway and ultimately I will need to bury
the final coil amidst this abrasive material.. I could get some more
of this well wire or the instructions say that you can directly bury
THHN or a similar type of wire. My concern though is the dirt, stones,
sand, etc. which would be in constant cantact and abrading this wire.
I think that I would like to encase it somehow. ideally in PVC. Then
have some kind of an underground junction box to connect my sheilded
cable to. Do you have any ideas as to how to do this? Lenny

Lenny, I think that the 'well pump wire' is stranded type TWU . In any
case it generally has a much thicker insulation intended exactly to
withstand high abrasion situations such as sliding in and out of well
casings or being directly buried in the ground. It would not survive
being shallow buried in a gravel drive for very long. If you can come
up with the needed length of normal TW or XLPE or the newer Nylon
coated wire, then I would suggest you buy some 1/2" PVC conduit,
couplings, glue,  4 90 degree sweep bends and an outlet box with two
1/2" hubs on one end and one hub on the other end as well as a blank
cover for the box. You then form the PVC pipe into the rectangular
coil form and pull in the wire around the loop the required 5 or 6
times and splice it to the shielded lead in in the box.
Please email me directly with your email address and I will send you a
sketch of how to form the pipe.
Naturally the pipe should be surrounded with coarse sand to pad it
from the stones, but since you should be staying within 3" - 4" of the
surface, you don't have a lot of margin for that.

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Neil
The well wire is solid 14 AWG. I looked at it again and it is marked
600V type "THW". and I definitely agree that it probably would not
survive the gravel driveway for very long. I was thinking about a
similar idea such as yours but it seems like it would be very hard to
pull, or for want of a better term, "sew" 6 wires into a loop one at a
time through all that pipe and those sweeps. Its virtually impossible
to rtry to add wire to a piece of pipe that already has wire in it.The
only way I would think that you could do it would be to pull 6
individual labeled numbered wires through the pipe, leave all the
fittings loose until all the wires are pulled through. At this point
you would glue the pipe together. Then you would have to splice the
wires together, 1 - 2, 2 - 3, etc. in the junction box to form a coil
with 6 turns. Then I'll have a continuous loop.. The only problem I
could envision is that it might be somewhat difficult to get the
fittings together with the wire in there. I don't know I guess its
worth a shot. I've seen PVC boxes with seals for this type of
underground work at some of the electrical supply houses. I'm going
to a hamfest tomorrow. Maybe I'll run into something there. You never
know. I really appreciate all the time you're taking on this with me.
BTW my email is: captainvideo462002@yahoo.com Best regards, Lenny