Driver to drive?

[Eeyore]

John Larkin wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

History may repeat itself yet again...
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/euthanasia.htm

Especially with this lot around !
http://www.newamericancentury.org/

" The Project for the New American Century is a non-profit educational
organization dedicated to a few fundamental propositions: that American
leadership is good both for America and for the world. "

There is no period there in the original sentence.

That makes it OK does it ? Actually, I didn't do that on purpose.

That's funny: you snipped it to spin it in your preferred negative
direction, and you can't remember why.

Are you trying to deny the words ?

I have no idea what "deny the words" could possibly mean; the web page
exists. You did snip Kristol's sentence to better align with your
prejudices.

He is right, of course. Kristol is a very smart and funny guy.

And a fascist. Heil Palin !

Can't you even see the disaster your country is creating ?

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Richard The Dreaded Libertarian wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
John Larkin wrote:

Hitler turned east after being stopped at the Channel.

Yes and had you lot not been attacked at Pearl Harbor and Germany then
declared war on you, all of Europe would have finally fallen to Russia.

Come on, Graham. You can't be claiming that there was no one in Europe who
had a clue how to save their own ass?

Yes us, the British. Sweden, Switzerland, the Irish Free State and
Spain/Portogal stayed out of it by being Neutral

Graham

 

[John Fields]

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 20:23:11 GMT, Richard The Dreaded Libertarian
<null@example.net> wrote:

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 00:45:42 +0000, Eeyore wrote:
John Larkin wrote:

Hitler turned east after being stopped at the Channel.

Yes and had you lot not been attacked at Pearl Harbor and Germany then
declared war on you, all of Europe would have finally fallen to Russia.

Come on, Graham. You can't be claiming that there was no one in Europe who
had a clue how to save their own ass? And that without US intervention,
you'd have _all_ gone down? Sounds a lot like "US 1, Them, 0."

And, when it comes to being dominated, has no one in Europe ever heard of
"civil disobedience?" >:-

---
I think it's largely been bred out of them since, early on, those who
dared to dissent with the policies of their "betters" were killed and
could produce no progeny who could voice the same sense of outrage for
social injustice.

ISTM that's what "manners" was all about in the beginning, just a
codified set of rules which were designed as a survival strategy in
order to keep from offending the currently ruling monarch and losing
one's life in the bargain.

ISTM the Japs have it down pat, with bowing, since what could be more
respectful than lowering one's gaze in a gesture of trust?

The Brits also bow and curtsy, but only to the queen, not to each other,
so that's more of a subservience thing than it is respect.
---

Oh, yeah - when you weren't paying attention, your authorities disarmed
all of you and taught you to be subhuman obediant sheep, devoid of even
a trace of self-respect.

---
Eternal vigilance is, indeed, the price of liberty but, when one is put
upon by the "authorities" (which one has previously been beaten into
declaring that the beaters _are_ the authorities) and told that one must
wear blinders for the good of the flock, and one refuses, then one
becomes truly free.

Or dead.

Maybe it's the same thing.
---

Sorry if my noticing this phenomenon offends you.

---
I'm sure it'll send Graham into either apoplexy or banality.

Nice post, in either case

JF

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 21:13:30 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

History may repeat itself yet again...
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/euthanasia.htm

Especially with this lot around !
http://www.newamericancentury.org/

" The Project for the New American Century is a non-profit educational
organization dedicated to a few fundamental propositions: that American
leadership is good both for America and for the world. "

There is no period there in the original sentence.

That makes it OK does it ? Actually, I didn't do that on purpose.

That's funny: you snipped it to spin it in your preferred negative
direction, and you can't remember why.

Are you trying to deny the words ?

I have no idea what "deny the words" could possibly mean; the web page
exists. You did snip Kristol's sentence to better align with your
prejudices.

He is right, of course. Kristol is a very smart and funny guy.

And a fascist. Heil Palin !

Can't you even see the disaster your country is creating ?

Graham

No. I see the world getting better, more prosperous and more
democratic, in fits and starts and with setbacks, but making steady
progress in the long term.

What has your country created lately? What are you doing for the poor
and powerless of the world?

John

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 18:16:29 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
mrdarr...@gmail.com wrote:

Well, to be fair, the USA was kind of busy fighting the Japanese.
Don't forget, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor (part of the USA), and
seized one of the US territories (the Philippines). Google "Bataan
Death March" someday. Did any European countries help out fighting
the Japanese? Maybe then bombing Japan with A-bombs could have been
avoided. Imagine dropping an A-bomb on Dresden... unthinkable, huh?

Michael, Sacramento

Hasn't anybody read any history?

The US was not prepared, militarily or politically, to enter the war
in 1941.

Your aircraft certainly weren't !

No, they were pitiful in 1941. But three years later, we had mass
quantities of Hellcats, Avengers, P38s, P47s, P51s, B17s, B29s,
Catalinas, many with microwave radar and crystal-controlled VHF
radios, all with superb pilots. Those American farm boys, hunting and
shooting and driving cars and tractors all their lives, nearly
fearless, were incredible pilots.

But we had already chosen sides, and were helping the British
just short of a declaration of wat against Germany. And arming at a
frantic pace.

Not a lot of choice really.

Why no choice? The US had a strong isolationist streak after the
carnage of WWI, but still chose to help Britain. So instead of saying
"thanks", you say we had "no choice."

After Japan attacked, and threatened Hawaii, Alaska, the Alutians, and
even the US west coast, FDR met with Churchill and decided on a
"Europe first" war policy, sending most of our resources to europe and
atempting a minimal holding pattern in the Pacific. A near miracle in
the Coral Sea, and a genuine miracle at Midway, and some superb code
breaking,

BRITISH code breaking.

Not the Japanese Purple code.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_code#Weaknesses_and_Cryptanalysis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Friedman

"In 1941 Friedman was hospitalized with a "nervous breakdown",
generally attributed to the mental strain of his work on PURPLE. While
he remained in hospital, a four-man team — Abraham Sinkov and Leo
Rosen from SIS, and Lt. Prescott Currier and Lt. Robert Weeks from the
U.S. Navy's OP-20-G — visited the British cryptological establishment
at the "Government Code and Cypher School" in Bletchley Park. They
gave the British a PURPLE machine, in exchange for details on the
design of the Enigma machine and on how the British decrypted the
Enigma cipher.

However Freidman was to visit Bletchley Park in April 1943 and play a
key role in drawing up the 1943 BRUSA Agreement."



You don't bother to do any reading or research, do you? You just sort
of repeat rumors you imagine that you heard.

John

 

[John Fields]

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 21:16:07 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

Richard The Dreaded Libertarian wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
John Larkin wrote:

Hitler turned east after being stopped at the Channel.

Yes and had you lot not been attacked at Pearl Harbor and Germany then
declared war on you, all of Europe would have finally fallen to Russia.

---
Then you need to thank the rebuff of the attacks against the US by both
Japan and Germany, and their failure, for the relative freedom you enjoy
today.
---

Come on, Graham. You can't be claiming that there was no one in Europe who
had a clue how to save their own ass?

Yes us, the British. Sweden, Switzerland, the Irish Free State and
Spain/Portogal stayed out of it by being Neutral

---
All chickenshits indeed, except maybe for the Irish Free State, which
you must have sweet-talked into getting behind you.

You all thought that by trembling in your boots while betraying your
trading partners by appeasing the wolf and letting it ravage everyone
around you, unobstructed, you'd be safe?

What a bunch of fucking idiots.

All you did, by not confronting it, early-on, was allow it to grow.

And then, to add insult to injury, you fault the US, us, for not coming
to your aid sooner, when we were _truly_ neutral, even though we did
side up with you when it got obvious that you were in dire straits and
kept you all from becoming lampshades.

And now?

You want the tail to wag the dog.

JF

 

[Eeyore]

John Larkin wrote:

I see the world getting better, more prosperous and more
democratic

Bwahahahahaaaa !

Christ you're blind.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

John Larkin wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
mrdarr...@gmail.com wrote:

Well, to be fair, the USA was kind of busy fighting the Japanese.
Don't forget, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor (part of the USA), and
seized one of the US territories (the Philippines). Google "Bataan
Death March" someday. Did any European countries help out fighting
the Japanese? Maybe then bombing Japan with A-bombs could have been
avoided. Imagine dropping an A-bomb on Dresden... unthinkable, huh?

Michael, Sacramento

Hasn't anybody read any history?

The US was not prepared, militarily or politically, to enter the war
in 1941.

Your aircraft certainly weren't !

No, they were pitiful in 1941. But three years later, we had mass
quantities of Hellcats, Avengers, P38s, P47s, P51s, B17s, B29s,
Catalinas, many with microwave radar

Designed by 'Taffy Bowen' from Wales and his boys plus the superb physicists at
Birmingham UK and the work of GEC (nor GE).

and crystal-controlled VHF
radios, all with superb pilots. Those American farm boys, hunting and
shooting and driving cars and tractors all their lives, nearly
fearless, were incredible pilots.

But we had already chosen sides, and were helping the British
just short of a declaration of wat against Germany. And arming at a
frantic pace.

Not a lot of choice really.

Why no choice? The US had a strong isolationist streak after the
carnage of WWI, but still chose to help Britain. So instead of saying
"thanks", you say we had "no choice."

So you'd have surrendered to the Japanese ?

After Japan attacked, and threatened Hawaii, Alaska, the Alutians, and
even the US west coast, FDR met with Churchill and decided on a
"Europe first" war policy, sending most of our resources to europe and
atempting a minimal holding pattern in the Pacific. A near miracle in
the Coral Sea, and a genuine miracle at Midway, and some superb code
breaking,

BRITISH code breaking.

Not the Japanese Purple code.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_code#Weaknesses_and_Cryptanalysis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Friedman

"In 1941 Friedman was hospitalized with a "nervous breakdown",
generally attributed to the mental strain of his work on PURPLE. While
he remained in hospital, a four-man team — Abraham Sinkov and Leo
Rosen from SIS, and Lt. Prescott Currier and Lt. Robert Weeks from the
U.S. Navy's OP-20-G — visited the British cryptological establishment
at the "Government Code and Cypher School" in Bletchley Park. They
gave the British a PURPLE machine, in exchange for details on the
design of the Enigma machine and on how the British decrypted the
Enigma cipher.

However Freidman was to visit Bletchley Park in April 1943 and play a
key role in drawing up the 1943 BRUSA Agreement."

You don't bother to do any reading or research, do you? You just sort
of repeat rumors you imagine that you heard.

So you broke one code ! Goody for you.

Graham

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 23:25:12 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

I see the world getting better, more prosperous and more
democratic

Bwahahahahaaaa !

Christ you're blind.

Graham

Again, you have opinions based on no research, no facts, no history,
just prejuduces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#20th_century

"Currently, there are 123 countries that are democratic, and the trend
is increasing (up from 40 in 1972)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India

"The economy of India, measured in USD exchange-rate terms, is the
twelfth largest in the world, with a GDP of around $1 trillion
(2008).[3] It recorded a GDP growth rate of 9.1% for the fiscal year
2007–2008 which makes it the second fastest big emerging economy,
after China, in the world."

http://www.chinability.com/GDP.htm

Much of the world has "turned the corner" and is on an upward curve of
development, which trends towards middle-class democracy. Only Africa
is not making much progress.

You *want* things to go to hell, you *want* people to be miserable.

Sick.

John

 

[Eeyore]

John Larkin wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
John Larkin wrote:

I see the world getting better, more prosperous and more
democratic

Bwahahahahaaaa !

Christ you're blind.

Graham

Again, you have opinions based on no research, no facts, no history,
just prejuduces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy#20th_century

"Currently, there are 123 countries that are democratic, and the trend
is increasing (up from 40 in 1972)"

And that's all down to the USA is it ? I thought you liked invading or
usurping nations and removing their elected representatives by means fair
or foul. And you're not averse to backing tyrants (like Saddam) when it
suits the moment.

2 faced shits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India

"The economy of India, measured in USD exchange-rate terms, is the
twelfth largest in the world, with a GDP of around $1 trillion
(2008).[3] It recorded a GDP growth rate of 9.1% for the fiscal year
2007–2008 which makes it the second fastest big emerging economy,
after China, in the world."

With a LOT of help and support from BRITAIN.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

John Fields wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Richard The Dreaded Libertarian wrote:

Come on, Graham. You can't be claiming that there was no one in Europe who
had a clue how to save their own ass?

Yes us, the British.

Sweden, Switzerland, the Irish Free State and
Spain/Portugal stayed out of it by being Neutral

---
All chickenshits indeed,

You think war is sensible ?

except maybe for the Irish Free State, which
you must have sweet-talked into getting behind you.

WTF do you mean by that ?

Graham

 

[John Fields]

On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 09:06:02 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

John Fields wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Richard The Dreaded Libertarian wrote:

Come on, Graham. You can't be claiming that there was no one in Europe who
had a clue how to save their own ass?

Yes us, the British.

Sweden, Switzerland, the Irish Free State and
Spain/Portugal stayed out of it by being Neutral

---
All chickenshits indeed,

You think war is sensible ?

Whether it is or not is immaterial.

The point is that you effectively talked Czechoslovakia into acceding to
Hitler's demands in return for what you thought would be your own
freedom from invasion by Hitler.

Stinks, doesn't it?

Read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement
---

except maybe for the Irish Free State, which
you must have sweet-talked into getting behind you.

WTF do you mean by that ?

---
Figure it out.

JF

 

[Eeyore]

John Fields wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
John Fields wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Richard The Dreaded Libertarian wrote:

Come on, Graham. You can't be claiming that there was no one in Europe who
had a clue how to save their own ass?

Yes us, the British.

Sweden, Switzerland, the Irish Free State and
Spain/Portugal stayed out of it by being Neutral

---
All chickenshits indeed,

You think war is sensible ?

Whether it is or not is immaterial.

Hardly IMHO.

The point is that you effectively talked Czechoslovakia into acceding to
Hitler's demands in return for what you thought would be your own
freedom from invasion by Hitler.

Stinks, doesn't it?

Read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement

What EXACTLY do you think we could have done to stop it ?

except maybe for the Irish Free State, which
you must have sweet-talked into getting behind you.

WTF do you mean by that ?

---
Figure it out.

That isn't an answer. If you mean some Irish chose to fight for/with our forces,
that was of their own free will. Despite what you may think, Ireland and Britain
have always had a close association.

Graham

 

[JosephKK]

On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:56:06 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

John Fields wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
John Fields wrote:

With only 73 years separation between Henry VIII's death and the
Mayflower Pilgrims' landing at Plymouth Rock, one would think England
would still have been pretty much under Rome's influence at the time.

COMPLETE GARBAGE. As is all the rest of your idiotic speculation. The Pope ceased to have
any influence and there was the official Protestant Church of England instead.

Your knowledge of history is appallingly bad.

In the light of yours being nonexistent

Blah blah blah blah blah.

Do they specially edit history books in the USA to be anti-British ? And plain WRONG ! Seems
like it to me.

Graham

One thing is clear; the content of our "history" texts do not match
the content of your "history" texts. Perhaps an inter-continental
text book exchange is in order, using well regarded textbooks. I
would be glad to participate.

 

[JosephKK]

On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:26:04 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

Richard The Dreaded Libertarian wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 19:51:01 +0000, Eeyore wrote:
Richard The Dreaded Libertarian wrote:

Well, the winner _does_ get to write the history books. ;-)

You don't look like you're winning anything at the moment I'm afraid.

Well, we _did_ win the Revolution, didn't we? Ergo, we get to write
the history books. ;-)

That's a pretty limited subject area but then Americans aren't reknowned
for any interest in affairs in other parts of the world.

And we haven't forgotten you were years late into both World Wars. Until
your cosy existence was disturbed you didn't give a fuck.

Graham

Bwahahahahaha.

You seem never to have heard of the central and south American banana
republics created by US military and covert interventions at the
behest of United Fruit Company and Dole, Inc

I sure do not want your candy cane glasses of your view of history.

 

[JosephKK]

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 00:47:28 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

John Fields wrote:

What I was arguing was that England, when the Mayflower Pilgrims left,
_was_ a religious state

Only in the sense that men were expected to turn up at a Protestant ( C of E ) Church on Sundays.

Bwahahahahah.

The CoE is the Roman Catholic church with the Pope replaced with the
Archbishop of Canterbury, not a protestant sect. Your screw lose king
wanted a divorce and split the RC church with a local tame leader to
get it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England

with Catholic influenced laws, and that's why they left.

Wrong.

Graham

 

[JosephKK]

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:20:19 +0000, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:

mrdarr...@gmail.com wrote:
bill.slo...@ieee.org wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
John Fields wrote:
John Larkin wrote:

The US's biggest critics are the Europeans, which is sort of ironic,
since we saved thaie asses a couple of times, and have been stuck
cleaning up their messes all over the world.

---
Yup.

Re. saving their asses:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

Old Chinese proverb: If you save someone's life, they will hate you
forever.

Grateful as we were for the US help in winning WW2 (when you finally
got around to it) we are obliged to be even more grateful to the
Russians, who did the bulk of the work.

Of course, the Russians didn't have a lot of choice about joining in,
since the Germans chose to invade their country.

Since the U.S.A. was never invaded by the Germans, you could perhaps
have sat out the European war, but only at the expense of seeing
Europe becoming part of a Russian empire. Roosevelt's administration
had enough sense to realise that this wouldn't be in your national
interest.

Well, to be fair, the USA was kind of busy fighting the Japanese.

WW2 started in Europe in August 1939. The Japanese didn't hit Pearl
Harbour in December 1941. The point I was making was that the U.S.A.
might have concentrated on the war against the Japanese in the
Pacific, but did in fact chose to commit troops to North Africa and
Europe as well - for which Europeans are grateful, though we do
appreciate that this was primarily motivated by enlightened American
self-interest rather than any particular sympathy for the countries
your ancestors had come from,

Don't forget, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor (part of the USA), and
seized one of the US territories (the Philippines).

I'm Australian. My mother's older brother served in Papua-New Guinea
and the islands to the north in the last year of WW2.

http://www.racp.edu.au/index.cfm?objectid=57D8BA7E-BBA8-5D39-133611C9100A5B6A&id=126

Google "Bataan Death March" someday. Did any European countries help
out fighting the Japanese?

As Eeyore has pointed out, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour was
part of a general attack on a number of European colonies in Southeast
Asia - the Japanese invasion of Malaysia started almost immedately
afterwards

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/fall_of_singapore.htm

and the Japanese attack on Dutch-held Indonesia began only a few days
later.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Dutch_Empire/Contents/Japanese_Invasion

The U.K. and Australia lost quite a few people fighting the Japanese,
and it was a U.K-led army that drove the Japanese out of Burma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Campaign

Maybe then bombing Japan with A-bombs could
have been avoided. Imagine dropping an A-bomb on Dresden... unthinkable, huh?

I'm sure that if Churchill had had an A-bomb to drop on Dresden, he
would have used it rather than the fleet of 1300 bombers that were
required to ignite the firestorm that killed some 25,000 people.
Hiroshima lost 140,000 people and Nagasaki some 80,000, but Dresden is
clearly in the same class.

Interesting point about Dresden. It was a MAJOR rail junction and therefore of
significant military significance.

Many of the numbers quoted dead were simply Nazi propaganda.

Furthermore the raids on Dresden were carried out by BOTH the USAAF and the RAF at the
specific request of the Russians.

Graham

Oh yes, that is the city that was saturation incendiary bombed to the
point of causing a firestorm. The winds were so strong that it picked
up cars and they flew into the fire intensifying it. I was lucky
enough to see some of the movie documentary film that survived.

 

[Jamie]

JosephKK wrote:

On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:56:06 +0000, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:



John Fields wrote:


Eeyore wrote:

John Fields wrote:

With only 73 years separation between Henry VIII's death and the
Mayflower Pilgrims' landing at Plymouth Rock, one would think England
would still have been pretty much under Rome's influence at the time.

COMPLETE GARBAGE. As is all the rest of your idiotic speculation. The Pope ceased to have
any influence and there was the official Protestant Church of England instead.

Your knowledge of history is appallingly bad.

In the light of yours being nonexistent

Blah blah blah blah blah.

Do they specially edit history books in the USA to be anti-British ? And plain WRONG ! Seems
like it to me.

Graham


One thing is clear; the content of our "history" texts do not match
the content of your "history" texts. Perhaps an inter-continental
text book exchange is in order, using well regarded textbooks. I
would be glad to participate.

Do you think he could really handle the truth ?

http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

 

[Eeyore]

John Fields wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Richard The Dreaded Libertarian wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
John Larkin wrote:

Hitler turned east after being stopped at the Channel.

Yes and had you lot not been attacked at Pearl Harbor and Germany then
declared war on you, all of Europe would have finally fallen to Russia.

---
Then you need to thank the rebuff of the attacks against the US by both
Japan and Germany, and their failure, for the relative freedom you enjoy
today.

Uh ?

You think you did it all yourselves ? There wasn't much rebuffing at Pearl
Harbor. At least us Brits were never caught with our pants down like that.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

John Fields wrote:

All you did, by not confronting it, early-on, was allow it to grow.

Britain doesn't have a border with Germany.

How exactly would we confront it ? What we did was to build up our forces and
defences in advance. Think of planes like the Hurricane and Spitfire that won the
Battle of Britain. Do you think they were designed and built overnight ? Or The
Lancasters, Lincolns and Halifax bombers and the Mosquito and Bristol Beaufighter
twin engined attack and night fighter aircraft with airborne radar. And who
commisioned the the P-51 Mustang ? NOT the USA !. It was all we could do. And it
was a LOT.

Graham