Does anyone have any blank PAL devices handy (Now obsolete p

[gregg dot drwho8 atsign g]

Hello!
I am looking for some of the original MMI PAL devices. My favorite
vendor shows only the PAL16R8 for example, (TIBPAL version) but I am
looking for the part numbers that MMI contributed:
PAL16C1
PAL16L2
PAL20L2
PAL20C1

We need these to update a series of designs that we made for a company
some years previously. We actually offered to redo them into a
PAL22V10 series and other examples of programmable logic. But they
were insistent and pointed out the exclusive nature of the contract.
Of course the lawyer who helped draft it has already retired but I
didn't point out that one.

Of course programming them will be the problem, but I believe I can
obtain a programmer from the vendor.

Of course if someone can steer me towards a firm who now has the
rights to make them, that would be nice.
--
GCL gregg.drwho8 at gmail dot com

 

[Mike Harrison]

On Sun, 21 Jun 2009 17:32:40 -0700 (PDT), gregg dot drwho8 atsign gmail dot com
<gregg.drwho8@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello!
I am looking for some of the original MMI PAL devices. My favorite
vendor shows only the PAL16R8 for example, (TIBPAL version) but I am
looking for the part numbers that MMI contributed:
PAL16C1
PAL16L2
PAL20L2
PAL20C1

We need these to update a series of designs that we made for a company
some years previously. We actually offered to redo them into a
PAL22V10 series and other examples of programmable logic. But they
were insistent and pointed out the exclusive nature of the contract.
Of course the lawyer who helped draft it has already retired but I
didn't point out that one.

Of course programming them will be the problem, but I believe I can
obtain a programmer from the vendor.

Of course if someone can steer me towards a firm who now has the
rights to make them, that would be nice.

Many programmers have modes which will program GALs directly from Jedec files originally compiled
for the earlier devices, so no need to redo..
MMI became part of AMD, then Vantis, then Lattice, who still make GALs.

 

[JW]

On Sun, 21 Jun 2009 17:32:40 -0700 (PDT) gregg dot drwho8 atsign gmail dot
com <gregg.drwho8@gmail.com> wrote in Message id:
<960a3da4-73a9-4ce1-92f2-131605324c2d@n8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>:

Hello!
I am looking for some of the original MMI PAL devices. My favorite
vendor shows only the PAL16R8 for example, (TIBPAL version) but I am
looking for the part numbers that MMI contributed:
PAL16C1
PAL16L2
PAL20L2
PAL20C1

We need these to update a series of designs that we made for a company
some years previously. We actually offered to redo them into a
PAL22V10 series and other examples of programmable logic. But they
were insistent and pointed out the exclusive nature of the contract.
Of course the lawyer who helped draft it has already retired but I
didn't point out that one.

Of course programming them will be the problem, but I believe I can
obtain a programmer from the vendor.

Of course if someone can steer me towards a firm who now has the
rights to make them, that would be nice.

http://www.findchips.com

 

[Mark Zenier]

In article <960a3da4-73a9-4ce1-92f2-131605324c2d@n8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
gregg dot drwho8 atsign gmail dot com <gregg.drwho8@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello!
I am looking for some of the original MMI PAL devices. My favorite
vendor shows only the PAL16R8 for example, (TIBPAL version) but I am
looking for the part numbers that MMI contributed:
PAL16C1
PAL16L2
PAL20L2
PAL20C1

We need these to update a series of designs that we made for a company
some years previously. We actually offered to redo them into a
PAL22V10 series and other examples of programmable logic. But they
were insistent and pointed out the exclusive nature of the contract.
Of course the lawyer who helped draft it has already retired but I
didn't point out that one.
....

These are all first generation PAL parts. TTL one time fuse
programmed. (circa 1978/1979). The second sources for that series were
National and TI, (But I'm not sure they bothered with some of the less
common parts). National got out of the business in the late '80s or early
'90s

AMD took over MMI back in the early-mid 1980s. Sold the progammable
logic lines to somebody later, I think.

Digging out some OLD databooks, the GAL16V8 and 20V8 can be programmed to
be pin for pin replacments for the 16L2 and the 20L2. But, as I remember,
the 16C1 parts needed one of the Philips PLA parts (PLS15x?) to do a pin
for pin replacment, if you really needed more than 8 terms. Looks like
a 22V10 could sub a 20C1 (and hope for no glitches), or use one of the
PLS17x? series.

There's still the problem that newer parts might be too fast for
an existing circuit board.

Mark Zenier mzenier@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

 

[gregg dot drwho8 atsign g]

On Jun 22, 3:30 pm, mzen...@eskimo.com (Mark Zenier) wrote:

In article <960a3da4-73a9-4ce1-92f2-131605324...@n8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
gregg dot drwho8 atsign gmail dot com  <gregg.drw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello!
I am looking for some of the original MMI PAL devices. My favorite
vendor shows only the PAL16R8 for example, (TIBPAL version) but I am
looking for the part numbers that MMI contributed:
PAL16C1
PAL16L2
PAL20L2
PAL20C1
We need these to update a series of designs that we made for a company
some years previously. We actually offered to redo them into a
PAL22V10 series and other examples of programmable logic. But they
were insistent and pointed out the exclusive nature of the contract.
Of course the lawyer who helped draft it has already retired but I
didn't point out that one.

...

These are all first generation PAL parts.   TTL one time fuse
programmed. (circa 1978/1979).  The second sources for that series were
National and TI,  (But I'm not sure they bothered with some of the less
common parts).  National got out of the business in the late '80s or early
'90s

AMD took over MMI back in the early-mid 1980s.  Sold the progammable
logic lines to somebody later, I think.

Digging out some OLD databooks, the GAL16V8 and 20V8 can be programmed to
be pin for pin replacments for the 16L2 and the 20L2.  But, as I remember,
the 16C1 parts needed one of the Philips PLA parts (PLS15x?) to do a pin
for pin replacment, if you really needed more than 8 terms.  Looks like
a 22V10 could sub a 20C1 (and hope for no glitches), or use one of the
PLS17x? series.  

There's still the problem that newer parts might be too fast for
an existing circuit board.

Mark Zenier  mzen...@eskimo.com  
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

Hello!
No argument here, Mark. One of the unique problems with that
particular family of products, is that the individual they were
delivered to is still there. He resembles Dilbert's boss in complete
lack of understanding in how things work.

And to make matters worse the chap who did the original programming
left his notes in nearly reasonable form, but not himself.

Which is why I decided to ask here. (Some of those lines were intended
as humor.)
--
GCL gregg.drwho8 at gmail dot com

"This signature asks the question, "Is that a duck?"."

 

[John Robertson]

gregg dot drwho8 atsign gmail dot com wrote:

Hello!
I am looking for some of the original MMI PAL devices. My favorite
vendor shows only the PAL16R8 for example, (TIBPAL version) but I am
looking for the part numbers that MMI contributed:
PAL16C1
PAL16L2
PAL20L2
PAL20C1

We need these to update a series of designs that we made for a company
some years previously. We actually offered to redo them into a
PAL22V10 series and other examples of programmable logic. But they
were insistent and pointed out the exclusive nature of the contract.
Of course the lawyer who helped draft it has already retired but I
didn't point out that one.

Of course programming them will be the problem, but I believe I can
obtain a programmer from the vendor.

Of course if someone can steer me towards a firm who now has the
rights to make them, that would be nice.
--
GCL gregg.drwho8 at gmail dot com

Not knowing the terms of your contract, I would have to assume that this
design is over ten (twenty?/thirty??) years old...and as such you can
not be held liable if the manufacturers of the original parts stopped
producing them. I fail to see how you can be held liable unless you
built the PALs yourself and promised delivery forever...MMI stopped
making these in the mid 80s didn't they?

Re-read the contract, I am sure there is something in there that would
allow for sustitution if read carefully.

Otherwise you need to hit the obsolete ICs folks and pay their prices,
but be careful - in many cases they are selling PROGRAMMED parts as they
don't all realize that many of these devices are write-once. As an
example, some characters tried to sell me some 6530s (Rockwell) a few
years ago and couldn't be convinced that their parts were useless as
they were only available as customer special request coded.

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

 

[gregg dot drwho8 atsign g]

On Jun 24, 12:14 am, John Robertson <s...@flippers.com> wrote:

gregg dot drwho8 atsign gmail dot com wrote:



Hello!
I am looking for some of the original MMI PAL devices. My favorite
vendor shows only the PAL16R8 for example, (TIBPAL version) but I am
looking for the part numbers that MMI contributed:
PAL16C1
PAL16L2
PAL20L2
PAL20C1

We need these to update a series of designs that we made for a company
some years previously. We actually offered to redo them into a
PAL22V10 series and other examples of programmable logic. But they
were insistent and pointed out the exclusive nature of the contract.
Of course the lawyer who helped draft it has already retired but I
didn't point out that one.

Of course programming them will be the problem, but I believe I can
obtain a programmer from the vendor.

Of course if someone can steer me towards a firm who now has the
rights to make them, that would be nice.
--
GCL gregg.drwho8 at gmail dot com

Not knowing the terms of your contract, I would have to assume that this
design is over ten (twenty?/thirty??) years old...and as such you can
not be held liable if the manufacturers of the original parts stopped
producing them. I fail to see how you can be held liable unless you
built the PALs yourself and promised delivery forever...MMI stopped
making these in the mid 80s didn't they?

Re-read the contract, I am sure there is something in there that would
allow for sustitution if read carefully.

Otherwise you need to hit the obsolete ICs folks and pay their prices,
but be careful - in many cases they are selling PROGRAMMED parts as they
don't all realize that many of these devices are write-once. As an
example, some characters tried to sell me some 6530s (Rockwell) a few
years ago and couldn't be convinced that their parts were useless as
they were only available as customer special request coded.

John :-#)#

--
    (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the newsgroup)
  John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
  Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
                     www.flippers.com
       "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

Hello!
That happened last week while we were watching our other projects
survive burn-in. (The contract reading.) After perusing the part about
its age, we are now convinced that availability and the other parts of
your statement aren't the issue. It's the ability of the customer to
understand it. Since he barely understands anything electronic outside
of his even older audio gear, we've decided to drop the issue. Next
step will be to contact them and remind them of this fact.

And yes I do see your problems concerning the R6530 parts, these are
PROM with I/O parts for the R6502 system. If they were programmed they
are only useful for the system they are aimed at.

Which means we can close this one and go for other issues.
And of course this is why I decided to ask here. (Some of those lines
were intended
as humor.)
--
GCL gregg.drwho8 at gmail dot com

"This signature asks the question, "Is that a duck?"."