Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard?

[Don Kuenz]

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

--
Don Kuenz

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 19:03:36 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
<garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

NO!

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

Parts soldered to gold-plated FR4.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Z338_PCB.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Z356_EOM_Timer/Z356_Top.JPG





--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Don Y]

On 9/15/2014 12:03 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

That depends, a lot, on what is being prototyped, the
packaging of the components, performance expected from the
circuit, etc.

E.g., too many leads makes many microcomputer (not microCONTROLLER)
designs impractical to prototype in that manner. Likewise, high
operating frequencies, low supply voltages (i.e., poor noise
margins), high power signals, etc. all can make that sort of
breadboarding more hassle than it is worth.

[And, a lot of stuff can more readily be *simulated* -- if the
purpose of the breadboard is "design verification"]

OTOH, a slow analog circuit is ideal for that sort of approach.
Just be aware of the limitations that come with it (as well as
connections that can be flakey, come loose, etc.)

If you're ever going to *do* anything with the design (i.e.,
commit it to foil), then it is usually better to just prototype
*in* foil. I've taken this approach for more than 30 years, now,
and it has served me well (though it gets more expensive to
make the prototypes as packaging has evolved).

Consider: if you will eventually commit the design to foil,
then there will come a time when you have to make your first
*foil* prototype(s). And, you'll spend some time troubleshooting
layout/routing errors, mechanical interference issues, etc. So,
you'll probably need to turn the crank, again (I dislike releasing
"cobbled" boards with softwire patches, cut foils, etc.).

With that in mind, let your *first* prototype be the *foil*
prototype and deal with design/layout/routing issues in that
first shot -- skipping one iteration (ideally). This has the
added benefit that you can (relatively easily) create a second
copy of that first prototype -- not that easy with other
approaches!

[I.e., maybe you want to play with the design a bit and risk butchering
the *one* prototype in the process]

Of course, you have to be reasonably confident in the design before
you begin!

 

[Michael Black]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014, Don Kuenz wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

Is this one of those surveys in advance of one of those kickstarter
campaigns? I seem to recall filling one out months ago, but I can't
remember if it really was related to breadboarding. I know the people
behind the survey had no real idea of the market.

And then, just last week, I saw something about a kickstarter campaign of
a little plastic gizmo that amounted to a microUSB connector with leads
that fit the breadboard. Have we dumbed things down that much? Forty
years ago, when those breadboards were new and I got one, I'd just wire
some bits of wire to things that didn't fit into the breadboard holes. No
need to buy something.

That said, one uses what fits the situation.

Those white breadboards are great for ICs since they are layed out for
ICs. They aren't so great for discrete components.

So you put your IC breadboarding on the white breadboards, and then hou
use scraps of copper circuit board for the rest, soldering to the copper
when you need a ground connection, and keeping everything in the air above
the board. Works fine for breadboarding, you can use components salvaged
fro something with small leads, or (if the circuit allows it) use parts
without cutting their leads, so they can be reused later. I used the same
piece of circuit board for years, it's even better after a bit of use
since the solder is already on the board, you just need to heat it a bit,
maybe add a bit of solder, and solder the component lead. This
arragnement makes it really easy to change things, or scrap it all.
Perfboard is lousy for making changes.

If you build compactly, you can just make the "breadboard" the finished
product, hide it behind a panel somewhere.

Michael

 

[Don Kuenz]

In sci.electronics.design John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 19:03:36 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

NO!


If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

Parts soldered to gold-plated FR4.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Z338_PCB.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Z356_EOM_Timer/Z356_Top.JP

That's so beautiful that it belongs in an art museum after you finish
your prototype! It seems that SMT makes solderless breadboard a thing of
the past.

--
Don Kuenz

 

[Don Kuenz]

In sci.electronics.design Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> wrote:

On 9/15/2014 12:03 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

That depends, a lot, on what is being prototyped, the
packaging of the components, performance expected from the
circuit, etc.

E.g., too many leads makes many microcomputer (not microCONTROLLER)
designs impractical to prototype in that manner. Likewise, high
operating frequencies, low supply voltages (i.e., poor noise
margins), high power signals, etc. all can make that sort of
breadboarding more hassle than it is worth.

[And, a lot of stuff can more readily be *simulated* -- if the
purpose of the breadboard is "design verification"]

OTOH, a slow analog circuit is ideal for that sort of approach.
Just be aware of the limitations that come with it (as well as
connections that can be flakey, come loose, etc.)

If you're ever going to *do* anything with the design (i.e.,
commit it to foil), then it is usually better to just prototype
*in* foil. I've taken this approach for more than 30 years, now,
and it has served me well (though it gets more expensive to
make the prototypes as packaging has evolved).

Consider: if you will eventually commit the design to foil,
then there will come a time when you have to make your first
*foil* prototype(s). And, you'll spend some time troubleshooting
layout/routing errors, mechanical interference issues, etc. So,
you'll probably need to turn the crank, again (I dislike releasing
"cobbled" boards with softwire patches, cut foils, etc.).

With that in mind, let your *first* prototype be the *foil*
prototype and deal with design/layout/routing issues in that
first shot -- skipping one iteration (ideally). This has the
added benefit that you can (relatively easily) create a second
copy of that first prototype -- not that easy with other
approaches!

[I.e., maybe you want to play with the design a bit and risk butchering
the *one* prototype in the process]

Of course, you have to be reasonably confident in the design before
you begin!

Although your approach requires more time and effort up front, it ought
to speed things along later and create a thoroughly thought out design.

--
Don Kuenz

 

[Don Kuenz]

In sci.electronics.design Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014, Don Kuenz wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

Is this one of those surveys in advance of one of those kickstarter
campaigns? I seem to recall filling one out months ago, but I can't
remember if it really was related to breadboarding. I know the people
behind the survey had no real idea of the market.

And then, just last week, I saw something about a kickstarter campaign of
a little plastic gizmo that amounted to a microUSB connector with leads
that fit the breadboard. Have we dumbed things down that much? Forty
years ago, when those breadboards were new and I got one, I'd just wire
some bits of wire to things that didn't fit into the breadboard holes. No
need to buy something.

That said, one uses what fits the situation.

Those white breadboards are great for ICs since they are layed out for
ICs. They aren't so great for discrete components.

So you put your IC breadboarding on the white breadboards, and then hou
use scraps of copper circuit board for the rest, soldering to the copper
when you need a ground connection, and keeping everything in the air above
the board. Works fine for breadboarding, you can use components salvaged
fro something with small leads, or (if the circuit allows it) use parts
without cutting their leads, so they can be reused later. I used the same
piece of circuit board for years, it's even better after a bit of use
since the solder is already on the board, you just need to heat it a bit,
maybe add a bit of solder, and solder the component lead. This
arragnement makes it really easy to change things, or scrap it all.
Perfboard is lousy for making changes.

If you build compactly, you can just make the "breadboard" the finished
product, hide it behind a panel somewhere.

I've done something similar. I've used a nylon breadboard to prototype,
then migrated all components to a breadboard perfboard, and finally hid
the whole contraption in a bud box. What goes on inside the bud box,
stays inside the bud box.

--
Don Kuenz

 

[Don Kuenz]

In sci.electronics.design rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/15/2014 3:03 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

I use PCBs for prototyping. There are ways to get them inexpensively if
you aren't in a hurry.

If I'm in a hurry it means I am being paid for the work and the costs of
a quicker prototype is part of my quote.

This may be the only way to prototype high density SMT.

--
Don Kuenz

 

[Don Kuenz]

In sci.electronics.design ChesterW <iamsnoozin@yahoo.com> wrote:

On 9/15/14, 2:03 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

I occasionally use one of these for simple and low frequency stuff:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/922336/922336-ND/180293

That was my approach until I read _Troubleshooting Analog Circuits_ by
Pease. For solderless breadbroads Pease recommends perfboard and
Digikey A208 and A209.

--
Don Kuenz

 

[rickman]

On 9/15/2014 3:03 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

I use PCBs for prototyping. There are ways to get them inexpensively if
you aren't in a hurry.

If I'm in a hurry it means I am being paid for the work and the costs of
a quicker prototype is part of my quote.

--

Rick

 

[ChesterW]

On 9/15/14, 2:03 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

--
Don Kuenz

I occasionally use one of these for simple and low frequency stuff:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/922336/922336-ND/180293

ChesterW

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 9/15/2014 3:03 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

Never. Dead bug all the way, with SMD breakout boards and some
uC/CPLD/interface boards from vendors.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

 

[Ecnerwal]

In article <lv7d5m$hna$1@dont-email.me>, Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net>
wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

Depends on the nature of the project. For some things, these are fine -
if you don't loan them out to idiots and are not one yourself. I used to
maintain a labful of them, and we had to treat them as largely
disposable due to idiocy making them disfunctional after a relatively
short time. My personal one, bought new, has held up much longer.

Many other options for things where the stray capacitance of these is a
problem have been discussed in the group in the past. Those are
generally of either the "build up sections of insulator and copper on
top of a copper-clad board" or "cut islands into a copper-clad board"
flavor. When Mr. Larkin is diverted from politics long enough to post
about electronics he often has links to pictures of this sort of thing.

Perfboard with or without little copper rings is another option for some
types of work, and you can sometimes even make the little copper rings
work with 3-terminal surface mount devices, since through-hole devices
are becoming scarcer.

Some types of things you simply have to spin a board to prototype
effectively, especially with the rise of surface-mount and the shrinkage
of pin-pitch.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 19:03:36 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
<garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?
http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

The best intentions often don't quite result in a neat breadboard:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=messy+breadboard&tbm=isch>

I have a small collection of those white breadboards and bags of
jumpers. That last time I used them was about 20 years ago for a
simple low frequency logic circuit. They're useless for anything over
a few MHz, or a few amps. Screwing around with all the little jumper
connections takes more time than building a "dead bug" circuit on a
PCB. The only real advantage to using one of those white breadboards
is that there's no soldering involved. However, I can solder, so
that's not much of a benefit.

>If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

Dead bug or 3D bug on a PCB. For discrete components, a single sided
PCB with the copper layer on top acting as a ground. Components are
mounted on the PCB using drilled holes. I use a small router bit or
end mill to clear out the ground plane around un-grounded leads.
Interconnections are done on the unclad bottom of the PCB using
plastic sleeves over component leads.

For SMT, I use small carrier PCB's to bring out the leads so that they
can be soldered.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=SMT+breadboard&tbm=isch>
They're also handy for easily replacing the SMT device after I blow it
up.

For RF prototypes, I either etch a PCB approximation of the strip
lines, or pay the price and have the PCB fabricated. Ocassionally,
I'll build up the strip lines using copper tape on a single sided PCB.
Xacto knife to make changes and fix mistakes.

The uglier the breadboard, the better it works.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:58:13 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
<garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:

That was my approach until I read _Troubleshooting Analog Circuits_ by
Pease. For solderless breadbroads Pease recommends perfboard and
Digikey A208 and A209.

Are you sure you want to follow Bob Pease's example?
<http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/bob-pease-breadboard.htm>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[rickman]

On 9/15/2014 7:57 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:

In sci.electronics.design rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:
On 9/15/2014 3:03 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

I use PCBs for prototyping. There are ways to get them inexpensively if
you aren't in a hurry.

If I'm in a hurry it means I am being paid for the work and the costs of
a quicker prototype is part of my quote.

This may be the only way to prototype high density SMT.

Certainly for anything with higher pin counts it is. I've seen untold
numbers of folks who hand solder QFN devices on adapter boards and
certainly QFPs and similar are no real problem. But with the higher pin
counts adapters are just too difficult.

I don't typically do designs where there is a lot of uncertainly in the
basic design. If there is much uncertainty I do it a different way,
like by wiring eval boards together.

You have to plan on two spins of the board though as there is almost
always something that will need changed. Still, PCBs are a lot cheaper
than they used to be.

--

Rick

 

[Don Y]

[*thought* I had replied to this but I suspect yet another brainfart]

On 9/15/2014 4:55 PM, Don Kuenz wrote:

In sci.electronics.design Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> wrote:

With that in mind, let your *first* prototype be the *foil*
prototype and deal with design/layout/routing issues in that
first shot -- skipping one iteration (ideally). This has the
added benefit that you can (relatively easily) create a second
copy of that first prototype -- not that easy with other
approaches!

[I.e., maybe you want to play with the design a bit and risk butchering
the *one* prototype in the process]

Of course, you have to be reasonably confident in the design before
you begin!

Although your approach requires more time and effort up front, it ought
to speed things along later and create a thoroughly thought out design.

It really depends on what your goals are and what you are doing.
Having "early foil" is often a win -- it lets manufacturing take
a look at what will (eventually, in some form) be coming down the
road. It lets them buy into the design at an earlier stage instead
of feeling like it is just *dropped* in their laps while the
marketing folks clamor for shipped product to satisfy orders, etc.

It also lets you play with a design in ways that would be too
tedious with other implementations: lift foils, add components,
connectors, test points, etc. It's one thing to trash a board
and "expense" the components that were on it; quite another
thing to deal with all the labor lost on a "one off" breadboard!

[I had a colleague "debug" a motor driver with the smoke-n-smell
technique. While the boss wasn't pleased with the number of
components that gave up the ghost in the process, he was *much*
happier knowing a new board would only set him back about an hour
in labor costs!]

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:50:46 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
<garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:

In sci.electronics.design John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 19:03:36 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

NO!


If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

Parts soldered to gold-plated FR4.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Z338_PCB.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/Z356_EOM_Timer/Z356_Top.JP

That's so beautiful that it belongs in an art museum after you finish
your prototype! It seems that SMT makes solderless breadboard a thing of
the past.

This is my favorite, but I did it on non-gold-plated FR4, and it
quickly tarnished.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Protos/LDP2.JPG

The copperclad breadboards allow really fast, high-current stuff. And
you can write on them, and keep them for future reference.

I find them (live bug!) easier to understand, too. The solderless
things confuse me, and dead bug makes me count backwards.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Cydrome Leader]

In sci.electronics.repair Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:

Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

This:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Dolby_SR_breadboard.jpg

It's a Dolby SR prototype of some sort.

 

[rickman]

On 9/16/2014 1:58 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:

In sci.electronics.repair Don Kuenz <garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your
prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

This:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Dolby_SR_breadboard.jpg

It's a Dolby SR prototype of some sort.

Yeah, like I said, I always do PCB from the start. This one just has a
few more white wires than usual. Good thing he had all those
conveniently located vias. lol

--

Rick