discussion on homemade weather balloon experiments. - teleme

[Heywood Jablome]

Hi all,

I see there has been some interest in amateur weather balloon experiments in
the states, especially ham radio guys that launch repeaters to the
stratosphere which enter the so called "near space" area of around 100 000
feet altitude. Is there anyone in Australia that is doing something similar?
This looks like a very interesting hobby.

http://vpizza.org/~jmeehan/balloon/

http://www.jpaerospace.com/pongsat/away25.html

There was a doco on SBS a week ago which mentioned that Japan was to build
an airship that would hover over japan and be a cheaper substitute compared
to a communications satellite. Why on earth has someone not thought of that
before. Sounds like a simple enough solution.

 

[Ed [:-)>]

the jetstream it quite fast

: I see there has been some interest in amateur weather balloon
experiments in
: the states, especially ham radio guys that launch repeaters to the
: stratosphere which enter the so called "near space" area of around 100
000
: feet altitude. Is there anyone in Australia that is doing something
similar?
: This looks like a very interesting hobby.

: There was a doco on SBS a week ago which mentioned that Japan was to
build
: an airship that would hover over japan and be a cheaper substitute
compared
: to a communications satellite. Why on earth has someone not thought of
that
: before. Sounds like a simple enough solution.
:
:
:

 

[Rod Out back]

"Heywood Jablome" <reply to thread> wrote in message
news:41f27723$0$19218$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

Hi all,

I see there has been some interest in amateur weather balloon experiments
in
the states, especially ham radio guys that launch repeaters to the
stratosphere which enter the so called "near space" area of around 100 000
feet altitude. Is there anyone in Australia that is doing something
similar?
This looks like a very interesting hobby.

http://vpizza.org/~jmeehan/balloon/

http://www.jpaerospace.com/pongsat/away25.html

There was a doco on SBS a week ago which mentioned that Japan was to build
an airship that would hover over japan and be a cheaper substitute
compared
to a communications satellite. Why on earth has someone not thought of
that
before. Sounds like a simple enough solution.

This idea was tossed around in the 70's, 80's, and probably before that!
Nothing new, but obviously there are problems with actually getting it to
work.

Go through some old copies of Popular Science from early 80's and you should
see details of the same concept.

I'd hate to think of a few million dollars of comms equipment being subject
to severe weather. There seems to be a lot less risk once you get a
satellite into space.

Cheers,

Rod.......Out Back

 

[Phil Allison]

"Heywood Jablome"

There was a doco on SBS a week ago which mentioned that Japan was to build
an airship that would hover over japan and be a cheaper substitute
compared
to a communications satellite. Why on earth has someone not thought of
that
before. Sounds like a simple enough solution.

** A solution to what problem exactly ??

An airship cannot replace a satellite - it does not operate high enough to
allow long distance or international links. The best it might do is replace
local mobile phone towers.

How will it maintain station in spite of high altitude ( 150 kph + ) winds
??

Any decent electrical storm could be the end of it - look what happened
to all the famous airships.




............. Phil

 

[Joerg]

Hello Rod Out back,

This idea was tossed around in the 70's, 80's, and probably before that!
Nothing new, but obviously there are problems with actually getting it to
work.

Go through some old copies of Popular Science from early 80's and you should
see details of the same concept.

I'd hate to think of a few million dollars of comms equipment being subject
to severe weather. There seems to be a lot less risk once you get a
satellite into space.

It depends on how it's done, who does it and, most of all, how much
funding is available for such a project. At the end it all boils down to
operating costs and these will most certainly include the insurance
premium paid to cover against the unthinkable.

Sure, weather, jet stream and other problems will be limiting factors.
But then again the geostationary orbit positions already look like a
parking lot at the shopping mall on December 24. Tough to secure a spot
up there.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Terry Collins]

Phil Allison wrote:

Any decent electrical storm could be the end of it - look what happened
to all the famous airships.

Which one?
Some of them were just speeding and crumbled up when they took a corner
too sharp.

That one which burnt up, was actually filled with hydrogen, rather than
helium, but that had nothing to do with it. It was static electricity
igniting the doped gas proof fabric that did it. What you saw burning
was the doped fabric.

The problem is being at a different electric potential to the
surrounding clouds.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Terry Collins"

Phil Allison wrote:

Any decent electrical storm could be the end of it - look what
happened
to all the famous airships.

Which one?
Some of them were just speeding and crumbled up when they took a corner
too sharp.

** Mostly it was stormy weather that did 'em in.

That one which burnt up, was actually filled with hydrogen, rather than
helium, but that had nothing to do with it.

** Err - the Hindenberg caught fire because of a hydrogen leak that
ignited by a static discharge. Seems the ground wire that is supposed to do
that safely was not fully played out.

It was static electricity
igniting the doped gas proof fabric that did it. What you saw burning
was the doped fabric.

** Sure it was - plus hydrogen, plus hundred of gallons of diesel fuel
that poured out of the bags that held it and onto the passengers.

None of which is relevant to trying to make one stay put at 40,000 ft and
do what a satellite does.




................ Phil

 

[Heywood Jablome]

** A solution to what problem exactly ??

There would be many applications. Mobile phone tower replacement (as you
say) would be one. How about a CDMA equipped balloon to bring communication
technology to developing nations for cheap. Or broadband wireless internet
access which would be avaliable for cars, as well as portable laptop users-
PDAs , etc. Current technology is on the brink of being there with the
distance factor, but getting through buildings has so far been the problem.
A balloon over 100000 feet in the air would be all you would need for one
city such as Melbourne to get "total" coverage.

An airship cannot replace a satellite - it does not operate high enough
to
allow long distance or international links. The best it might do is
replace
local mobile phone towers.

Maybe not international links for Australia. But in Europe it could.

How will it maintain station in spite of high altitude ( 150 kph + )
winds
??

We are talking over 100 000 feet. This is above the jet stream and well
above all clouds. Very calm conditions. It is classified as "near space".
The sky is black, and you can see stars during the day. Very eery. See
second image here:

http://www.jpaerospace.com/dssoverview.html


Typically the little wind that there is still causes a problem as you still
have to have a little thrust to maintain position. But as solar panels get
less expensive, I reckon that this probelm will be overcome and I wouldn't
be surprised if it is something that we will see in the future.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Heywood Jablome"

** A solution to what problem exactly ??

There would be many applications. Mobile phone tower replacement (as you
say) would be one. How about a CDMA equipped balloon to bring
communication
technology to developing nations for cheap.

** Err - the usual way is very cheap - and works.

Or broadband wireless internet
access which would be avaliable for cars, as well as portable laptop
users-
PDAs , etc.

** Even using a phone in a car is incredibly unsafe - the other ideas
assume outdoor use where LCD is hopeless.

Current technology is on the brink of being there with the
distance factor, but getting through buildings has so far been the
problem.
A balloon over 100000 feet in the air would be all you would need for one
city such as Melbourne to get "total" coverage.


How will it maintain station in spite of high altitude ( 150 kph + )
winds
??



We are talking over 100 000 feet. This is above the jet stream and well
above all clouds.

** Bugger all weight carrying capacity at that height.

Typically the little wind that there is still causes a problem as you
still
have to have a little thrust to maintain position. But as solar panels get
less expensive, I reckon that this probelm will be overcome and I wouldn't
be surprised if it is something that we will see in the future.

** Sounds like a load of hot air to me.




.............. Phil

 

[AssTelescope]

I think its very possible and would be cheaper than sending a rocket into
space. Think of all the fuel you would save as a result and maintenance
costs would be reduced also.

Your right Phil, the usual way works and is cheap, but if this works out to
be cheaper you can be sure that share holders will be placed first and the
idea taken up quickly.

Sure its been tried in the past but times change and technology gets better,
having another go seems natural.

Imagine having one station in the clouds to service a city instead of
multiple stations all over the place.


"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:35gvnsF4mkc3nU1@individual.net...

"Heywood Jablome"

** A solution to what problem exactly ??

There would be many applications. Mobile phone tower replacement (as you
say) would be one. How about a CDMA equipped balloon to bring
communication
technology to developing nations for cheap.


** Err - the usual way is very cheap - and works.



Or broadband wireless internet
access which would be avaliable for cars, as well as portable laptop
users-
PDAs , etc.


** Even using a phone in a car is incredibly unsafe - the other ideas
assume outdoor use where LCD is hopeless.



Current technology is on the brink of being there with the
distance factor, but getting through buildings has so far been the
problem.
A balloon over 100000 feet in the air would be all you would need for one
city such as Melbourne to get "total" coverage.


How will it maintain station in spite of high altitude ( 150 kph + )
winds
??



We are talking over 100 000 feet. This is above the jet stream and well
above all clouds.


** Bugger all weight carrying capacity at that height.



Typically the little wind that there is still causes a problem as you
still
have to have a little thrust to maintain position. But as solar panels
get
less expensive, I reckon that this probelm will be overcome and I
wouldn't
be surprised if it is something that we will see in the future.



** Sounds like a load of hot air to me.




............. Phil

 

[KLR]

On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 08:47:14 +1100, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"Heywood Jablome"

There was a doco on SBS a week ago which mentioned that Japan was to build
an airship that would hover over japan and be a cheaper substitute
compared
to a communications satellite. Why on earth has someone not thought of
that
before. Sounds like a simple enough solution.



** A solution to what problem exactly ??

An airship cannot replace a satellite - it does not operate high enough to
allow long distance or international links. The best it might do is replace
local mobile phone towers.

How will it maintain station in spite of high altitude ( 150 kph + ) winds
??

Any decent electrical storm could be the end of it - look what happened
to all the famous airships.




............. Phil

Another such "wonderful idea" similar to this that was publicised in

the early 1990s was to have an "electrically powered aeroplane" that
did this same job (hover and act as a cheap substitute for a
sattelite). The electricity was to be fed to if via a high powered
microwave transmission from earth and collected by many tiny antennas
on the planes underside.

Of course what happened to the plane if the power was lost wasnt
explained , for that matter too how much use the thing would be as a
"comms sattelite" with very high power (powerful enough to keep a
plane in the air) microwaves being blasted at the comms
antennas/dishes.

For that matter I can't imagine it being that safe if birds, or other.
aircraft were to fly through this beam, or if it was attenuated by
heavy rain etc ?

 

[Phil Allison]

"Heywood Jablome"

There would be many applications. Mobile phone tower replacement (as you
say) would be one.

** Mobile phones ( et alia) work on the "cellular" principle - where
the exact same frequencies are used over and over in different cells a few
kms apart. A large city has over 100 cells with up to 40 calls on the same
channel at once.

Having only *one big cell* in the sky is simply not an option.

Small problem.




.................. Phil

 

[ic]

Nuts & Volts have been running a series on near space experimentation using
balloons. I too am curious if there are any amateurs doing it in Australia,
and what regulatory hurdles there are here.

Ian.


"Heywood Jablome" <reply to thread> wrote in message
news:41f27723$0$19218$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

Hi all,

I see there has been some interest in amateur weather balloon experiments
in
the states, especially ham radio guys that launch repeaters to the
stratosphere which enter the so called "near space" area of around 100 000
feet altitude. Is there anyone in Australia that is doing something
similar?
This looks like a very interesting hobby.

http://vpizza.org/~jmeehan/balloon/

http://www.jpaerospace.com/pongsat/away25.html

There was a doco on SBS a week ago which mentioned that Japan was to build
an airship that would hover over japan and be a cheaper substitute
compared
to a communications satellite. Why on earth has someone not thought of
that
before. Sounds like a simple enough solution.

 

[Heywood Jablome]

"ic" <icameron@winshop.obvious.com.au> wrote in message
newsPYId.131516$K7.106949@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

Nuts & Volts have been running a series on near space experimentation
using
balloons. I too am curious if there are any amateurs doing it in
Australia,
and what regulatory hurdles there are here.

Ian.

In the states, there appears to be a 6 pound limit on the payload. That does
not include the balloon itself. If the payload is under this limit, the
launch does not requre any special clearance, though it seems all clubs that
launch any balloon do still find it prudent to notify their local air
authority just before launch.

6 pounds would be more than enough for the average hobbyist experimenter.
That would cater for a still camera, GPS tracker and some other bits and
bobs such as humidity/temp/barometer data loggers. I can't find any info on
what rules apply to aussie air. In any case, I reckon it would be extremely
improbable for a plane to hit such a small mass.

 

[John Crighton]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:14:53 +1100, "Heywood Jablome" <reply to
thread> wrote:

In the states, there appears to be a 6 pound limit on the payload. That does
not include the balloon itself. If the payload is under this limit, the
launch does not requre any special clearance, though it seems all clubs that
launch any balloon do still find it prudent to notify their local air
authority just before launch.

6 pounds would be more than enough for the average hobbyist experimenter.
That would cater for a still camera, GPS tracker and some other bits and
bobs such as humidity/temp/barometer data loggers. I can't find any info on
what rules apply to aussie air. In any case, I reckon it would be extremely
improbable for a plane to hit such a small mass.

While I was reading that last sentence above, my mind
wondered off and I was visualising the opening scenes
of a Hollywood movie.

Departure lounge scene.
Loving husband saying goodbye to wife and daughter boarding
jet liner Obnoxious passenger loudly takes his seat on board.

Paddock Scene (somewhere in Canada).
The lads gas up the balloon, crack jokes and discuss
wind direction. Snow capped mountains in the distance.

Cockpit scene.
Pilots discussing weather and possible de-tours, interrupted
by beautiful blonde air hostess serving coffee and...
Jaunty voice on radio announces, "Amair 639 Heavy, you
are clear for take-off on runway blah blah blah ........"

You know the rest

 

Heywood Jablome wrote:

There was a doco on SBS a week ago which mentioned that Japan was to
build
an airship that would hover over japan and be a cheaper substitute
compared
to a communications satellite. Why on earth has someone not thought
of that
before. Sounds like a simple enough solution.

In the DotBomb days I recall seeing information on a company that were
planning to fly (winged) aircraft around in circles all day in order to
provide the city below with wireless access. I don't know if they ever
got off the ground. *pun intended*

 

googlegro...@sensation.net.au wrote:

In the DotBomb days I recall seeing information on a company that
were
planning to fly (winged) aircraft around in circles all day in order
to
provide the city below with wireless access. I don't know if they
ever
got off the ground. *pun intended*

Found it - the article from 1997:

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-203187.html?legacy=cnet

"In a plan befitting Ripley's Believe It or Not, a St. Louis-based
start-up is laying the groundwork to offer wireless high-speed Internet
access using airplanes circling target markets at high altitudes."


This is the company doing it:

http://www.angelcorp.com/

Looks like the site wasn't updated past the year 2000. I guess they
exploded like so many others, with their ghost site living on...

 

[Harvey]

ic wrote:

Nuts & Volts have been running a series on near space experimentation using
balloons. I too am curious if there are any amateurs doing it in Australia,
and what regulatory hurdles there are here.

CASR Part 101 Unmanned aircraft and rocket operations
".........rules for the use of unmanned moored balloons and kites,
unmanned free balloons, unmanned rockets, Unmanned Aerial Vehicles
(UAVs), model aircraft, and pyrotechnic displays".-

PDF document here:
http://www.casa.gov.au/prod/avreg/rules/1998casr/101/index.htm

Briefly re: payloads

Free balloons -
Small: 50 grams of payload max
Light: 2 metres in diameter max: 4 kilograms of payload max.
Medium: larger than 2 metres in diameter: payload more than 4, less than
6 kilograms.
Heavy balloon: capable of carrying more than 6 kilograms of payload.


......Old article -
BACAR experiments - Balloon Carrying Amateur Radio
The South Australian VHF Group is expected to be involved with high
altitude balloons with amateur radio payloads this year. The flights
will also involve the Australian Space Research Institue (ASRI) and a
computer users group, the Australian Public Access Network Australia
(South Australia). Initial reports suggest that at peak altitude the
balloons should provide line-of-sight radio coverage - depending on wind
drift, in both South Australia and Victoria. It is proposed that the
balloon flights trial the possibility of putting an amateur satellite at
an altitude of at least 100,000 feet (30km).

Australian Space Research Institute
ASRI High Altitude Balloon Program -
http://www.asri.org.au/ASRI/research/hab/BalloonProgramConcept.htm

 

[Heywood Jablome]

http://www.casa.gov.au/prod/avreg/rules/1998casr/101/index.htm

Briefly re: payloads

Free balloons -
Small: 50 grams of payload max
Light: 2 metres in diameter max: 4 kilograms of payload max.
Medium: larger than 2 metres in diameter: payload more than 4, less than
6 kilograms.
Heavy balloon: capable of carrying more than 6 kilograms of payload.

I thought you made a mistake about the classifications but after reading the
document, I see you didnt. The regulations seem to be silent (purposefully?)
on balloons bigger than 2m in diameter and with a payload between 0 and 4
kg. This type of balloon would not fit into any of the categories above.
Perhaps we have a loophole. In any case, it would be best to notify the air
traffic control anyway.