Dimmers & LEDs

I have a 150W bulb in my study with a dimmer. THe bulb slightly browns the
ceiling.

I am looking to putting in an LED but I keep seeing limitations
referring to "leading edge dimmers". What is this?

I don't trust halogens in my cluttered study.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]

 

On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 20:16:48 +0000 (UTC),
vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:

I have a 150W bulb in my study with a dimmer. THe bulb slightly browns the
ceiling.

I am looking to putting in an LED but I keep seeing limitations
referring to "leading edge dimmers". What is this?

I don't trust halogens in my cluttered study.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]



Good grief!!! Don't you even know how to use Google!!! Here is the

first of 151,000 hits on 'leading edge dimmer'.
http://sound.westhost.com/lamps/dimmers.html

PlainBill

 

[Phil Allison]

<PlainBill@yawhoo.com>

vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:

I am looking to putting in an LED but I keep seeing limitations
referring to "leading edge dimmers". What is this?

Good grief!!! Don't you even know how to use Google!!! Here is the
first of 151,000 hits on 'leading edge dimmer'.
http://sound.westhost.com/lamps/dimmers.html

** Rod ( of ESP ) has been testing high efficiency lighting products for
some years now - beginning with my suggestion that the truth about CFLs was
begging to be published somewhere on the net.

What is abundantly clear is that with very few exceptions, the products
being offered to the public and industry are wholly incompatible with
standard AC circuit protection methods and dimming equipment long used with
incandescent lamps.

Egs

1. As little as 100 watts worth of CFLs or LED lights will regularly trip
breakers installed in lighting circuits designs to accept 2000 watts. The
tripping occurs at switch on due to unsuppressed surge spikes.

2. The same CFLs and LED lights cannot be successfully dimmed with common
triac dimmers as installed in millions of premises and WORSE STILL must
never be used in a circuit containing such a dimmer.

I doubt you will find this crucial information on any site other than ESP.



.... Phil

 

[Arfa Daily]

<vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com> wrote in message
news:jcitbg$72a$1@reader1.panix.com...

I have a 150W bulb in my study with a dimmer. THe bulb slightly browns the
ceiling.

I am looking to putting in an LED but I keep seeing limitations
referring to "leading edge dimmers". What is this?

I don't trust halogens in my cluttered study.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]

To be honest, I think I would live with the slight discolouring of the
ceiling. A guy that I do a lot of work for, has recently changed all of the
lighting in his retail shop, over to LEDs. These are not el cheapo Chinese
ones, but expensive branded ones. The light is very bright - so much so that
you can't actually look at them - but the quality of that light is dreadful.
He first did the area behind the counter a few weeks ago. As you walked into
the front of the shop, the area behind the counter looked like Santa's
grotto. The overall light was dim, and of a very cold colour, despite these
lamps supposedly being 'daylight'. When I pulled up outside the shop this
week, I honestly thought that they were closed. He had done the rest of the
shop, and now, it's like walking into a refrigerator. There are just two
'islands' of nice light left. One is the workshop area tucked away to one
side right at the back, where Tony the engineer has flatly refused to have
his linear flourescent removed, and the other is a display stand for some
Bosch products, located half way down the shop. It has a number of small
soft incandescent lamps in it. The owner is pleased about the reduction in
his electricity costs to run these lamps, but I can't help feeling that he
might just live to regret it, as what once appeared like a nice attractive
store interior when you looked through the front window, now looks dim and
uninviting.

So if you decide that you really want to do this, I would advise that you
research exactly what you are going to buy to replace your easily dimmable
light bulb, extremely carefully before doing it ...

Arfa

 

[William Sommerwerck]

In the US, several companies (such as GE) sell CFLs that are specifically
labelled as dimmable. This seems less related to the design of the circuitry
that starts the lamp, than it is to the presence of return path that allows
X10 and other signals to pass through the lamp.

I use mostly CFLs from Home Depot, which come on instantly, hit full
brightness in about 30 seconds, and have an excellent color balance. (These
are Consumer Reports' top-rated lamps, though I stumbled onto them -- there
was a nearby Home Depot, and they were cheap -- before CU reviewed them.)

These are not labelled as dimmable, but the X10 system will dim them. (There
are only about 8 or 9 steps from "max" before the lamp goes out.) There's a
catch, however.

If you use a conventional X10 plug-in wall dimmer to dim them, the lamp will
blink several times a second when you turn it off. The reason is that the
dimmer pulses the line periodically to determine when you've cycled the
power switch on the lamp itself. (This lets you turn on the lamp without
using the X10 controller.) The dimmer notes the off/on change in current,
and supplies full power. If you then command the dimmer to shut off the
lamp, it will continue to pulse the line.

According to X10, you need to use an X10 wall-switch dimmer, which doesn't
pulse the line. I haven't yet checked this.

 

[nesesu]

On Dec 18, 2:32 am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:

In the US, several companies (such as GE) sell CFLs that are specifically
labelled as dimmable. This seems less related to the design of the circuitry
that starts the lamp, than it is to the presence of return path that allows
X10 and other signals to pass through the lamp.

I use mostly CFLs from Home Depot, which come on instantly, hit full
brightness in about 30 seconds, and have an excellent color balance. (These
are Consumer Reports' top-rated lamps, though I stumbled onto them -- there
was a nearby Home Depot, and they were cheap -- before CU reviewed them.)

These are not labelled as dimmable, but the X10 system will dim them. (There
are only about 8 or 9 steps from "max" before the lamp goes out.) There's a
catch, however.

If you use a conventional X10 plug-in wall dimmer to dim them, the lamp will
blink several times a second when you turn it off. The reason is that the
dimmer pulses the line periodically to determine when you've cycled the
power switch on the lamp itself. (This lets you turn on the lamp without
using the X10 controller.) The dimmer notes the off/on change in current,
and supplies full power. If you then command the dimmer to shut off the
lamp, it will continue to pulse the line.

According to X10, you need to use an X10 wall-switch dimmer, which doesn't
pulse the line. I haven't yet checked this.

I have been powering CFLs controlled by X-10 only with 'appliance'
modules to avoid possible accidental dimming. I found that they would
switch off, but then turn back on, after a second or two similar to
what William says for the dimmers. I resolved this on the older style
module by cutting the sense lead from the output side. This does not,
however, work on the newer appliance modules. I see similar issues
with X-10 and outdoor LED Christmas lighting which can usually be
resolved by plugging a spare 'wall wart' into the controlled output
[in parallel with the LED load] to provide a somewhat linear load.

I have been testing a Philips LED 'light bulb' [9W] and I find it's
operation, colour and brightness very comparable to the 60W lamp it
replaced. It is also controlled by an unmodified 'new' X-10 module
without any issues.

Neil S.

 

[hrhofmann@att.net]

On Dec 17, 2:16 pm, vjp2...@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:

I have a 150W bulb in my study with a dimmer. THe bulb slightly browns the
ceiling.

I am looking to putting in an LED but I keep seeing limitations
referring to "leading edge dimmers". What is this?

I don't trust halogens in my cluttered study.

                                    - = -
 Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
                   http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
  ---{Nothing herein constitutes advice.  Everything fully disclaimed..}---
   [Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
 [Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]

Why not simply glue a piece of aluminum foil on the ceiling directly
over the lamp and that will protect the ceiling from excessive heat if
that is what you are worried about. Or, using a small piece of pipe
drop the light bulb down inside the fixture so it is a little further
from the ceiling.

You could also get a bezel and mount the fixture below that, the bezel
would protect the ceiling from the heat, and whenever you move, you
could remove the bezel and put the fixture back tight against the
ceiling. If you did not paint the ceiling in the meantime, nothing
would be visible that you had dropped down and then moved the fixture
back up. Dimmers are mostly cheap and look for a resistive load.
There are some dimmers made for cfls, you have to look hard to find
them and pay $$$ when you buy them.

 

On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 10:47:12 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

PlainBill@yawhoo.com
vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:

I am looking to putting in an LED but I keep seeing limitations
referring to "leading edge dimmers". What is this?

Good grief!!! Don't you even know how to use Google!!! Here is the
first of 151,000 hits on 'leading edge dimmer'.
http://sound.westhost.com/lamps/dimmers.html


** Rod ( of ESP ) has been testing high efficiency lighting products for
some years now - beginning with my suggestion that the truth about CFLs was
begging to be published somewhere on the net.

What is abundantly clear is that with very few exceptions, the products
being offered to the public and industry are wholly incompatible with
standard AC circuit protection methods and dimming equipment long used with
incandescent lamps.

Egs

1. As little as 100 watts worth of CFLs or LED lights will regularly trip
breakers installed in lighting circuits designs to accept 2000 watts. The
tripping occurs at switch on due to unsuppressed surge spikes.

2. The same CFLs and LED lights cannot be successfully dimmed with common
triac dimmers as installed in millions of premises and WORSE STILL must
never be used in a circuit containing such a dimmer.

I doubt you will find this crucial information on any site other than ESP.



... Phil

OK, so neither you nor Rod know what a 'leading edge dimmer' is, and

aren't either smart or ambitious enough to look it up for yourself. I
had a pretty good idea, and decided to do a little research before
spouting nonsense. To bad you haven't done the same.

Point 1. A conventional circuit breaker would certainly be imune to
any type of transients; a GFCI breaker should be immune to transients,
but I will admit a poorly designed one might not be. Since an AFCI
breaker is designed to detect and trip on transients, it should be
obvious that a dimmer for LEDs would be likely to trip one.

Point 2. The incompatibility between conventional dimmers and CCFL /
LED lighting is well known, documented on most packages of the
lighting products, as well as the first few of the sources I found in
by the search. Anyone who is surprised by this fact can only be
described as 'willfully ignorant'.

Further, I am amused by the idea that someone purporting to be an
expert would rely on anecdotal information on something critical to
his area of expertise.

PlainBill

 

[John Robertson]

vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:

I have a 150W bulb in my study with a dimmer. THe bulb slightly browns the
ceiling.

I am looking to putting in an LED but I keep seeing limitations
referring to "leading edge dimmers". What is this?

I don't trust halogens in my cluttered study.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]

You may want to read up on spontaneous combustion of wood products
exposed to long term heat. Ignition can occur below the normal burning
point due to carbonization of the wood...common problem with wood stoves
where they are too close to a wall.

You really need to fix that before you light your ceiling on fire!

John :-#(#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

 

[Phil Allison]

<PlainBill@yawhoo.com>

PlainBill@yawhoo.com


Good grief!!! Don't you even know how to use Google!!! Here is the
first of 151,000 hits on 'leading edge dimmer'.
http://sound.westhost.com/lamps/dimmers.html


** Rod ( of ESP ) has been testing high efficiency lighting products for
some years now - beginning with my suggestion that the truth about CFLs
was
begging to be published somewhere on the net.

What is abundantly clear is that with very few exceptions, the products
being offered to the public and industry are wholly incompatible with
standard AC circuit protection methods and dimming equipment long used
with
incandescent lamps.

Egs

1. As little as 100 watts worth of CFLs or LED lights will regularly trip
breakers installed in lighting circuits designs to accept 2000 watts. The
tripping occurs at switch on due to unsuppressed surge spikes.

2. The same CFLs and LED lights cannot be successfully dimmed with common
triac dimmers as installed in millions of premises and WORSE STILL must
never be used in a circuit containing such a dimmer.

I doubt you will find this crucial information on any site other than ESP.


OK, so neither you nor Rod know what a 'leading edge dimmer' is,

** OK - you tell us what one is then.

Boy oh boy - YOU are just begging for it !!

You fucking SMUG PRICK !!!

Point 1. A conventional circuit breaker would certainly be imune to
any type of transients;

** Shame how everyone's experience and maker's published specs say otherwise
!!

You bullshitting, brainless PIG !!!

Point 2. The incompatibility between conventional dimmers and CCFL /
LED lighting is well known, documented on most packages of the
lighting products, as well as the first few of the sources I found in
by the search.

** The words " non dimmable" on a pack convey NOTHING about what I posted
above and is detailed on the ESP site. A serious problem arises when a CFL
is plugged into a circuit that has a standard triac dimmer - regardless of
the setting - that makers do not mention.

Fact: most so called " non-dimmable" CFLs are dimmable with a variac.

Further, I am amused by the idea that someone purporting to be an
expert would rely on anecdotal information on something critical to
his area of expertise.

** Not one thing is anecdotal here - you BULLSHITTING PRICK.

I did extensive tests on many different CFLs and so did Rod Elliot - the
results are published on his site.

Your IGNORANCE IS MONSTROUS.

FOAD.



.... Phil

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 17 Dec 2011 20:16:48 +0000 (UTC),
vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com wrote:

I have a 150W bulb in my study with a dimmer. THe bulb slightly browns the
ceiling.

1. Paint the ceiling white to reflect more of the IR heat.
2. Use a lower wattage light bulb.
3. Install a reflector
4. Purchase a proper light fixture.
5. Divide and conquer:
<http://www.1000bulbs.com/search/?q=Satco+77-607>

I am looking to putting in an LED but I keep seeing limitations
referring to "leading edge dimmers". What is this?

<http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Trailing_edge_dimmer_how_does_it_work>

I don't trust halogens in my cluttered study.

Don't inhale the halogen gases. Well, ok. Halogens runs very hot and
will probably burn your house down.

I switched to LED lighting around my desk area at home. Ecosmart
bright white A19 9 watts, 429 lumens at about $9/ea (cheap).
<http://www.ledsmagazine.com/press/22332>
The color is rather yellowish. It's difficult to see the yellow color
as the eye tend to correct for minor color aberrations. However, my
digital camera does not lie.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/EcoSmart 9 Watt LED.jpg>
The fluted white base is an aluminum heat sink. It gets quite hot.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

*+-Why not simply glue a piece of aluminum foil on the ceiling directly

That's exactly what my late dad did in 1999.
That's what brought the problem to my attention.

Thanks to everyone for well considered answers.


- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]

 

I was afraid of that. Unfortunately "leading edge dimmers" was in small print
and not on the online ad before I ordered.

*+-Point 2. The incompatibility between conventional dimmers and CCFL /
*+-LED lighting is well known, documented on most packages of the
*+-lighting products, as well as the first few of the sources I found in
*+-by the search. Anyone who is surprised by this fact can only be
*+-described as 'willfully ignorant'.


- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]

 

An aside on LEDs - they lead me to be more cluttered because I don't "see"
as much mess. I have been using a lot of smaller LEDs since 2005 but I really
don't trust CFLs.

I was alarmed to see many larger LEDs have built in fans. I asked at a trade
show and was told the step-down transformer was the source of heat and that
spozably the newer diode-based bulbs would be cooler.

- = -
Vasos Panagiotopoulos, Columbia'81+, Reagan, Mozart, Pindus, BioStrategist
http://www.panix.com/~vjp2/vasos.htm
---{Nothing herein constitutes advice. Everything fully disclaimed.}---
[Homeland Security means private firearms not lazy obstructive guards]
[Urb sprawl confounds terror] [Phooey on GUI: Windows for subprime Bimbos]

 

[Phil Allison]

<vjp2.at@at.BioStrategist.dot.dot.com

I was afraid of that. Unfortunately "leading edge dimmers" was in small
print
and not on the online ad before I ordered.

** Did it say you can or cannot use them ??


... Phil

 

[Wild_Bill]

Watt the hell.. heat from the aluminum base? That's Wasted energy, from a
LED lamp, oh the horrors!

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:nbfte71mo9013acen5kh4aa73ell2ad60u@4ax.com...

http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/EcoSmart 9 Watt LED.jpg
The fluted white base is an aluminum heat sink. It gets quite hot.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 06:34:50 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
<wb_wildbill@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:

Watt the hell.. heat from the aluminum base? That's Wasted energy, from a
LED lamp, oh the horrors!

There are a few LED lamps with built in fans.
<http://www.dhgate.com/12v-mr16-bulb-led-spot-light-globe-internal/r-ff8080812d0dad01012d0e57326c732b.html>
They're known to fail (if it moves, it breaks).
--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS