Difference in NiCad replacement batteries

Puddin' Man · Aug 5, 2011

I've got this old Norelco T6000 Beard Trimmer, designed as a throw-away,
that I've been nursing from year to year by soldering in new batteries.
I fear I'm down to my last solder, expect something to break, rendering
the unit unusable (given my modest skills).

Looks like a AA, Amazon has specs at 600mAh and 1.2V.

What is the best and most-long-lived battery I can buy for such a unit? I
assume there are some differences judging from the price range ($4 to $15).

Have been looking for a good replacement for the unit for years, seen
nothing the least bit impressive. "They don't make 'em like they
used to!"

Thx,
P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

Dave Platt · Aug 5, 2011

In article <j9ho37t4acu9pdg3s72ia7llhpiumiaf07@4ax.com>,
Puddin' Man <Pudding Dot Man At Gmail Dot Com> wrote:

Looks like a AA, Amazon has specs at 600mAh and 1.2V.

What is the best and most-long-lived battery I can buy for such a unit? I
assume there are some differences judging from the price range ($4 to $15).

I recently bought a 2-AA-cell pack for this purpose from Mouser...
part number 6396-1K-F2 / CM1T-AA1000. It uses 1000 mAh NiCd cells,
and cost $5.95 plus shipping.

You could easily get more than twice that capacity by using NiMH cells
or a pack thereof, but if the charge-control circuit in the shaver is
designed for NiCd it might not work all that well with NiMH (might
over- or under-charge the battery, shorten its life, etc.).

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

William Sommerwerck · Aug 6, 2011

"Dave Platt" <dplatt@radagast.org> wrote in message
news:1kvtg8-vic.ln1@radagast.org...

In article <j9ho37t4acu9pdg3s72ia7llhpiumiaf07@4ax.com>,
Puddin' Man <Pudding Dot Man At Gmail Dot Com> wrote:

Looks like a AA, Amazon has specs at 600mAh and 1.2V.

What is the best and most-long-lived battery I can buy for such a unit? I
assume there are some differences judging from the price range ($4 to
$15).

I recently bought a 2-AA-cell pack for this purpose from Mouser...
part number 6396-1K-F2 / CM1T-AA1000. It uses 1000 mAh NiCd cells,
and cost $5.95 plus shipping.

You could easily get more than twice that capacity by using NiMH cells
or a pack thereof, but if the charge-control circuit in the shaver is
designed for NiCd it might not work all that well with NiMH (might
over- or under-charge the battery, shorten its life, etc.).

Probably not. The Norelco "charger" is probably little more than a resistor
in series with the power supply. A NiMH should have no trouble with that.

Why not get some NiMH cells with tabs from Thomas Distributing? The ones I
used in my Polaroid #365 electronic flash work fine, and the #363 rapid
charger -- designed for nicads -- shuts off properly.

Puddin' Man · Aug 6, 2011

On Sat, 6 Aug 2011 08:00:20 -0700, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net>
wrote:

You could easily get more than twice that capacity by using NiMH cells
or a pack thereof, but if the charge-control circuit in the shaver is
designed for NiCd it might not work all that well with NiMH (might
over- or under-charge the battery, shorten its life, etc.).

Probably not. The Norelco "charger" is probably little more than a resistor
in series with the power supply. A NiMH should have no trouble with that.

Why not get some NiMH cells with tabs from Thomas Distributing? The ones I
used in my Polaroid #365 electronic flash work fine, and the #363 rapid
charger -- designed for nicads -- shuts off properly.

Hmmmmmmm. I peruse
http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/159640/technology/nimh_vs_nicad_vs_li_ion.html
and it sez longer (than NiMh) life cycles for NiCd.

If true, I'd likely be better off with NiCd. No?

If the life cycle of 1.2v NiCd rechargables is appreciably variable, what is the
best NiCd I can buy? Brand or mnfgr or ? with the longest life cycle??

Thx,
P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

William Sommerwerck · Aug 6, 2011

Nicads are obsolescent, if not actually obsolete. If you can find NiMH cells
that fit, use them.

I've been listening to my Sony Discman at work. It runs on two AA cells. I
use PowerEx (MAHA) 2700mAh NiMH cells. In two weeks, I've gone through 16
disks of Bach organ works, seven of Hermann Baumann playing valveless horn,
and I'm well into an Andras Schiff collection -- and they're still running
strong.

Phil Allison · Aug 6, 2011

"Puddin' Man"

Hmmmmmmm. I peruse
http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/159640/technology/nimh_vs_nicad_vs_li_ion.html

** FFS - get some real information.

and it sez longer (than NiMh) life cycles for NiCd.

** Absolute nonsense.

The number of cycles quoted by makers is a complete fantasy that has almost
nothing to do with any real life application.

Wiki quotes 2000 cycles for NiCd, but gives no source for that mad claim.

IME, treat NiCd or NiMH cells with great care and you can expect a few
hundred cycles - do anything careless ( overcharge or overheat) and you
can ruin them in one day.

..... Phil

Peter Hill · Aug 7, 2011

On Sun, 7 Aug 2011 08:40:34 +1000, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

"Puddin' Man"

Hmmmmmmm. I peruse
http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/159640/technology/nimh_vs_nicad_vs_li_ion.html

** FFS - get some real information.

and it sez longer (than NiMh) life cycles for NiCd.

** Absolute nonsense.

The number of cycles quoted by makers is a complete fantasy that has almost
nothing to do with any real life application.

Wiki quotes 2000 cycles for NiCd, but gives no source for that mad claim.

IME, treat NiCd or NiMH cells with great care and you can expect a few
hundred cycles - do anything careless ( overcharge or overheat) and you
can ruin them in one day.

.... Phil

I'm using 1000mAh NiMH AA cells from Poundworld, sold in packs of 2
(everything Ł1, kinda like a 5 and dime) GPB). I'm very happy with
them for TV remotes, wireless keyboard / mice, 80's vintage CBM
calculator and even a hair trmmer. 2 AA cells for 1GPB. As almost
everything has $1 = Ł1 exchange rate should be able to find some for
about 1$ in USA.

At that price the key issue is how easy it is to rebuild the device
you are putting them in.
--
Peter Hill
Spamtrap reply domain as per NNTP-Posting-Host in header
Can of worms - what every fisherman wants.
Can of worms - what every PC owner gets!

Phil Allison · Aug 7, 2011

"Peter Hill"

I'm using 1000mAh NiMH AA cells from Poundworld, sold in packs of 2
(everything Ł1, kinda like a 5 and dime) GPB). I'm very happy with
them for TV remotes, wireless keyboard / mice, 80's vintage CBM
calculator ..

** The man is totally insane.

Wonder if he uses any of his NiMh cells for what they are good at.

..... Phil

Dave Platt · Aug 8, 2011

In article <j1jktj$jp6$1@dont-email.me>,
William Sommerwerck <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

You could easily get more than twice that capacity by using NiMH cells
or a pack thereof, but if the charge-control circuit in the shaver is
designed for NiCd it might not work all that well with NiMH (might
over- or under-charge the battery, shorten its life, etc.).

Probably not. The Norelco "charger" is probably little more than a resistor
in series with the power supply. A NiMH should have no trouble with that.

As I understand it, the problem with this approach is the question of
shutting off the charge when the battery is full. NiMH cells are less
tolerant of being overcharged than NiCd, and are best used with a
charger that has a somewhat more sensitive full-charge detector (e.g.
zero-delta-V and/or direct temperature sense, rather than negative-
delta-V as was often used with NiCd cells.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

Geoffrey S. Mendelson · Aug 8, 2011

Dave Platt wrote:

As I understand it, the problem with this approach is the question of
shutting off the charge when the battery is full. NiMH cells are less
tolerant of being overcharged than NiCd, and are best used with a
charger that has a somewhat more sensitive full-charge detector (e.g.
zero-delta-V and/or direct temperature sense, rather than negative-
delta-V as was often used with NiCd cells.

It's slightly more complicated, if you replace NiCad cells in a battery
pack with a temperature sensor, you have to replace the sensor too. NiMH
cells have a much lower "cook temperature" than NiCads.

The other night I was having trouble sleeping and read a very nice article
about modifying Motorola NiCad chargers to properly (and not over) charge
NiMH packs. Since it was late at night, I remember the main points and
that I read it, but not where.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Making your enemy reliant on software you support is the best revenge.

Jeff Liebermann · Aug 9, 2011

On Mon, 8 Aug 2011 19:19:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
<gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

I remember the main points and
that I read it, but not where.

<http://www.repeater-builder.com/motorola/genesis/nimh-charger-mod.html>
These simplistic chargers are horrible and will kill any battery fed
to it in short order. There are some similar Kenwood chargers with
the same problem. They tend to overcharge, even after the battery
pack gets over-heated. I've modified a few of these with good results
as the author describes.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

gregz · Aug 9, 2011

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

Nicads are obsolescent, if not actually obsolete. If you can find NiMH cells
that fit, use them.

I've been listening to my Sony Discman at work. It runs on two AA cells. I
use PowerEx (MAHA) 2700mAh NiMH cells. In two weeks, I've gone through 16
disks of Bach organ works, seven of Hermann Baumann playing valveless horn,
and I'm well into an Andras Schiff collection -- and they're still running
strong.

Depending on current draw, nicads will deliver more current due to lower
impedance. For motors that can be a problem.

Greg

Jim Yanik · Aug 9, 2011

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in
news:mok247piiltesqumfqfeuk0nm1q31eul9d@4ax.com:

On Mon, 8 Aug 2011 19:19:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

I remember the main points and
that I read it, but not where.

http://www.repeater-builder.com/motorola/genesis/nimh-charger-mod.html
These simplistic chargers are horrible and will kill any battery fed
to it in short order. There are some similar Kenwood chargers with
the same problem. They tend to overcharge, even after the battery
pack gets over-heated. I've modified a few of these with good results
as the author describes.

I've read that charge terminating NiMH by temperature rise is not good or
proper,that it has to be done by voltage monitoring.
By the time the NiMH cells heat up,the damage has been done.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Dave Platt · Aug 9, 2011

In article <Xns9F3C9077562DDjyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:

http://www.repeater-builder.com/motorola/genesis/nimh-charger-mod.html
These simplistic chargers are horrible and will kill any battery fed
to it in short order. There are some similar Kenwood chargers with
the same problem. They tend to overcharge, even after the battery
pack gets over-heated. I've modified a few of these with good results
as the author describes.

I've read that charge terminating NiMH by temperature rise is not good or
proper,that it has to be done by voltage monitoring.
By the time the NiMH cells heat up,the damage has been done.

I believe that they're both aspects of the same phenomenon... that is,
the change in the cell's terminal voltage is the result of the rise in
temperature, which itself results from the fact that the energy being
pumped in is now being converted to heat rather than to
electrochemical potential.

In effect, sensing the terminal voltage and shutting down when it
ceases to rise is a faster way of detecting the rise in the cell's
internal temperature. You don't have to wait for the heat to "soak
out" of the cell and warm up the thermistor.

The recommendations I've read suggest that the best shutdown approach
for NiMH cells is via zero-delta-V measurement, with a temperature
sensor as a secondary, and a timer as a last-ditch shutoff.

The temperature sensor is best used to detect "sudden rise in
temperature" rather than "specific temperature threshold". This makes
the detection less sensitive to variations in the room temperature,
and also to the sort of variation in thermistor values written about
in the document Jeff pointed us to. This is probably best done with a
microcontroller or a dedicated charge-control IC that can perform
time-based measurement analysis.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

Phil Allison · Aug 9, 2011

"gregz"

Depending on current draw, nicads will deliver more current due to lower
impedance. For motors that can be a problem.

** Simply not true.

AA cells in NiCd or NiMH have closely similar impedances and hence max
current outputs.

The figure is between 10 and 20 milliohms in both cases.

..... Phil

William Sommerwerck · Aug 13, 2011

Probably not. The Norelco "charger" is probably little more than a
resistor
in series with the power supply. A NiMH should have no trouble with that.

As I understand it, the problem with this approach is the question of
shutting off the charge when the battery is full. NiMH cells are less
tolerant of being overcharged than NiCd, and are best used with a
charger that has a somewhat more sensitive full-charge detector (e.g.
zero-delta-V and/or direct temperature sense, rather than negative-
delta-V as was often used with NiCd cells.

This isn't a problem if you're charging at a fairly low rate. A good-quality
cell -- nicad or NiMH -- will tolerate an indefinite low ("trickle") charge.

If the resistor is chosen to give a 0.1C charge rate when the cell is at
about 1V, the charge rate when the cell has "fully" charged will be rather
lower ("depending").

It's only in the past decade or so that rapid-charging with auto-cutoff has
become commonplace. Prior to that, almost every nicad device was charged
with a simple series resistor. And guess what? It worked.

As I said earlier, I have a Polaroid #365 electronic flash with NiMH cells
that replaced the original nicads. The #363 rapid charger has no trouble
stopping and switching to trickle charge. It was designed almost 45 years
ago.

William Sommerwerck · Aug 13, 2011

I've read that charge terminating NiMH by temperature rise is
not good or proper, that it has to be done by voltage monitoring.
By the time the NiMH cells heat up, the damage has been done.

Based on what I learned at Microsoft Hardware, this is not true. "Hitting"
the NiMH cell "hard", to the point where it significantly heats the cell,
supposedly gives a deeper charge.

I've have NiMHs get quite warm -- even hot -- in chargers. If one such
occurrence ruined the cell, then most of my cells would be useless. None is.

William Sommerwerck · Aug 13, 2011

"gregz" <zekor@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:454924340334540994.363991zekor-comcast.net@news.eternal-september.org...

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

Nicads are obsolescent, if not actually obsolete. If you can find NiMH
cells
that fit, use them.

I've been listening to my Sony Discman at work. It runs on two AA cells.
I
use PowerEx (MAHA) 2700mAh NiMH cells. In two weeks, I've gone through 16
disks of Bach organ works, seven of Hermann Baumann playing valveless
horn,
and I'm well into an Andras Schiff collection -- and they're still
running
strong.

Depending on current draw, nicads will deliver more current due to lower
impedance. For motors that can be a problem.

Not in a circuit that regulates the current flow to the motor. Which, of
course, CD players have.

The only case I know of where what you say is true, is the use of nicads in
really cheap electronic flashes. These were designed so that the higher
internal resistance of alkaline cells would limit the current flow. With
nicads, they can overheat and be damaged.

gregz · Aug 14, 2011

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"Puddin' Man"

Hmmmmmmm. I peruse
http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/159640/technology/nimh_vs_nicad_vs_li_ion.html

** FFS - get some real information.

and it sez longer (than NiMh) life cycles for NiCd.

** Absolute nonsense.

The number of cycles quoted by makers is a complete fantasy that has almost
nothing to do with any real life application.

Wiki quotes 2000 cycles for NiCd, but gives no source for that mad claim.

IME, treat NiCd or NiMH cells with great care and you can expect a few
hundred cycles - do anything careless ( overcharge or overheat) and you
can ruin them in one day.

.... Phil

I had a bunch of NiMH cells laying around for a few years, they just did
not work anymore.

From using them in model cars and Dustbusters, etc, the general idea 10
years ago was the nicads had lower impedance, but in reading further,
today's NiMH cell are better Z wise.

Still got some 50 year old German nicad packs that still work.

Greg

William Sommerwerck · Aug 14, 2011

"gregz" <zekor@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1987222440334980106.449471zekor-comcast.net@news.eternal-september.org...

Got some 50 year old German nicad packs that still work.

Ah, German precision...

Difference in NiCad replacement batteries

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