Dice on the cheap

J

Joel Kolstad

Guest
Just curious... if I find some parts that are only available in discrete die
form, is the following procedure reasonable to actually use them on a small
production budget?

-- Take a die and epoxy it down to your Teflon or FR-4 PCB
-- With a manual wire bonder, bond out the wires to regular old PCB pads
-- "Glob top" them by dispensing a dollop of epoxy on top of the mess

Have anyone done this? Will a wire bonder connect to ...gold plated PCBs?
Solder plated? Others?

Manual wire bonders are cheap enough that it seems this could be pretty viable
for small production runs... for the epoxy dispensing, I would imagine there's
some machine similar to a solder paste dispenser that could be used, but even
carefully dispensing from a syringe seems viable.

This approch seems to be the manual version of how something like a digital
wristwatch is built, as far as I can tell.

---Joel Kolstad
 
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:51:13 -0700, "Joel Kolstad"
<JKolstad71HatesSpam@yahoo.com> wrote:

Just curious... if I find some parts that are only available in discrete die
form, is the following procedure reasonable to actually use them on a small
production budget?

-- Take a die and epoxy it down to your Teflon or FR-4 PCB
-- With a manual wire bonder, bond out the wires to regular old PCB pads
-- "Glob top" them by dispensing a dollop of epoxy on top of the mess

Have anyone done this? Will a wire bonder connect to ...gold plated PCBs?
Solder plated? Others?

Manual wire bonders are cheap enough that it seems this could be pretty viable
for small production runs... for the epoxy dispensing, I would imagine there's
some machine similar to a solder paste dispenser that could be used, but even
carefully dispensing from a syringe seems viable.

This approch seems to be the manual version of how something like a digital
wristwatch is built, as far as I can tell.

---Joel Kolstad
Click to expand...
This IS done regularly in "throw-away" consumer products. I'm not
sure what kind of wire-bonding is used... my best guess would be
ultrasonic.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
Hi Paul,

"Paul Mathews" <optoeng@pioneernet.net> wrote in message
news:1120095811.749187.35070@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Unless you're talking about power chips, e.g., power transistors,
MOSFETs, rectifiers, wirebonding best done using gold wire and
thermosonic ball/wedge methods.
Click to expand...
I'm mainly concerned with RF devices... diodes, FETs, mixers, switches,
etc. -- many 'desirable' ones now only come in dice.

On circuit board end, best done using
'soft gold' plating, also called 'five 9s' gold, since thermosonic
bonding produces best results with pure gold.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I don't have any equipment yet, but the idea
was to find a used manual wire bonder in the ballpark of the "low thousands of
dollars" to use.

---Joel
 
"Paul Mathews" <optoeng@pioneernet.net> wrote in message
news:1120231264.983009.303340@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Look around for an old K&S thermosonic bonder and a small supply of 1
mil Au bond wire. You will need functioning electronics, preheating
stage, and a stereo microscope. Some of the used ones are missing
parts of the above.
Click to expand...
Thanks, will do!
 
On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 08:55:08 -0700, "Joel Kolstad"
<JKolstad71HatesSpam@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Paul Mathews" <optoeng@pioneernet.net> wrote in message
news:1120231264.983009.303340@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Look around for an old K&S thermosonic bonder and a small supply of 1
mil Au bond wire. You will need functioning electronics, preheating
stage, and a stereo microscope. Some of the used ones are missing
parts of the above.

Thanks, will do!
Click to expand...
I haven't done it now for ~25 years, but in 1980 I can recall
rummaging around a San Jose "used" equipment warehouse and bought 3
K&S bonders so I could get ONE workable bonder on-the-cheap ;-)

Also bought a probe station the same way.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:1spac155en05i0atr689ghjuoshk9vfc43@4ax.com...
I haven't done it now for ~25 years, but in 1980 I can recall
rummaging around a San Jose "used" equipment warehouse and bought 3
K&S bonders so I could get ONE workable bonder on-the-cheap ;-)
Click to expand...
Hmm... not a bad idea!

I would have to guess that bonder ended up in a company somewhere rather than
your garage?
 
On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:33:09 -0700, "Joel Kolstad"
<JKolstad71HatesSpam@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:1spac155en05i0atr689ghjuoshk9vfc43@4ax.com...
I haven't done it now for ~25 years, but in 1980 I can recall
rummaging around a San Jose "used" equipment warehouse and bought 3
K&S bonders so I could get ONE workable bonder on-the-cheap ;-)

Hmm... not a bad idea!

I would have to guess that bonder ended up in a company somewhere rather than
your garage?
Click to expand...
Omnicomp/GenRad Portable Tester Division

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:1spac155en05i0atr689ghjuoshk9vfc43@4ax.com...
On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 08:55:08 -0700, "Joel Kolstad"
JKolstad71HatesSpam@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Paul Mathews" <optoeng@pioneernet.net> wrote in message
news:1120231264.983009.303340@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Look around for an old K&S thermosonic bonder and a small supply of 1
mil Au bond wire. You will need functioning electronics, preheating
stage, and a stereo microscope. Some of the used ones are missing
parts of the above.

Thanks, will do!


I haven't done it now for ~25 years, but in 1980 I can recall
rummaging around a San Jose "used" equipment warehouse and bought 3
K&S bonders so I could get ONE workable bonder on-the-cheap ;-)

Also bought a probe station the same way.

...Jim Thompson
Click to expand...
Do you remember which probe station? Not the old manual Cascade Microtech
Model 42 one?

Robert
 
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 22:43:41 GMT, "Robert" <Robert@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:1spac155en05i0atr689ghjuoshk9vfc43@4ax.com...
On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 08:55:08 -0700, "Joel Kolstad"
JKolstad71HatesSpam@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Paul Mathews" <optoeng@pioneernet.net> wrote in message
news:1120231264.983009.303340@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Look around for an old K&S thermosonic bonder and a small supply of 1
mil Au bond wire. You will need functioning electronics, preheating
stage, and a stereo microscope. Some of the used ones are missing
parts of the above.

Thanks, will do!


I haven't done it now for ~25 years, but in 1980 I can recall
rummaging around a San Jose "used" equipment warehouse and bought 3
K&S bonders so I could get ONE workable bonder on-the-cheap ;-)

Also bought a probe station the same way.

...Jim Thompson

Do you remember which probe station? Not the old manual Cascade Microtech
Model 42 one?

Robert
Click to expand...
I don't remember now, other than the wafer platform moved and the
probe card and tips were stationary.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:cj6ec1l7qm6d39vr9kvpuscdit0p2flaft@4ax.com...
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 22:43:41 GMT, "Robert" <Robert@yahoo.com> wrote:


"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:1spac155en05i0atr689ghjuoshk9vfc43@4ax.com...
On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 08:55:08 -0700, "Joel Kolstad"
JKolstad71HatesSpam@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Paul Mathews" <optoeng@pioneernet.net> wrote in message
news:1120231264.983009.303340@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Look around for an old K&S thermosonic bonder and a small supply of 1
mil Au bond wire. You will need functioning electronics, preheating
stage, and a stereo microscope. Some of the used ones are missing
parts of the above.

Thanks, will do!


I haven't done it now for ~25 years, but in 1980 I can recall
rummaging around a San Jose "used" equipment warehouse and bought 3
K&S bonders so I could get ONE workable bonder on-the-cheap ;-)

Also bought a probe station the same way.

...Jim Thompson

Do you remember which probe station? Not the old manual Cascade Microtech
Model 42 one?

Robert



I don't remember now, other than the wafer platform moved and the
probe card and tips were stationary.

...Jim Thompson
Click to expand...
That's standard on all the ones I know of. The old manual Model 42 had a
vertical cylinder grease chuck on top of which the wafer sat under a vacuum
pull. You grabbed the vertical cylinder with two hands and moved what you
wanted to probe under the center line of the stereozoom microscope. It had a
lever that would lift the top plate of the station (with the magnetically
clamped DC needle and CPW probes) up a certain amount measured in mils. Then
you'd grab the cylinder and try and slide it on the grease while looking
through the microscope to where you wanted to probe. Then lower the plate
and gently adjust your probes vertically for contact plus 2-4 mils of
overtravel.

At that point you could hit the lever, the probes would all come up, you
grab the chuck and move it to the next die, and when you moved the lever to
come back down you'd have the same amount of overtravel at the new location.
Repeat for next die, etc.

I sure was happy when they finally got electric driven screws that moved the
chuck. Then it could be computer controlled as well.

Still some of the old manual ones made.

Such as these guys:
http://www.jmicrotechnology.com/

Robert
 
On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 01:12:19 GMT, "Robert" <Robert@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:cj6ec1l7qm6d39vr9kvpuscdit0p2flaft@4ax.com...
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 22:43:41 GMT, "Robert" <Robert@yahoo.com> wrote:


"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:1spac155en05i0atr689ghjuoshk9vfc43@4ax.com...
On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 08:55:08 -0700, "Joel Kolstad"
JKolstad71HatesSpam@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Paul Mathews" <optoeng@pioneernet.net> wrote in message
news:1120231264.983009.303340@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Look around for an old K&S thermosonic bonder and a small supply of 1
mil Au bond wire. You will need functioning electronics, preheating
stage, and a stereo microscope. Some of the used ones are missing
parts of the above.

Thanks, will do!


I haven't done it now for ~25 years, but in 1980 I can recall
rummaging around a San Jose "used" equipment warehouse and bought 3
K&S bonders so I could get ONE workable bonder on-the-cheap ;-)

Also bought a probe station the same way.

...Jim Thompson

Do you remember which probe station? Not the old manual Cascade Microtech
Model 42 one?

Robert



I don't remember now, other than the wafer platform moved and the
probe card and tips were stationary.

...Jim Thompson

That's standard on all the ones I know of. The old manual Model 42 had a
vertical cylinder grease chuck on top of which the wafer sat under a vacuum
pull. You grabbed the vertical cylinder with two hands and moved what you
wanted to probe under the center line of the stereozoom microscope. It had a
lever that would lift the top plate of the station (with the magnetically
clamped DC needle and CPW probes) up a certain amount measured in mils. Then
you'd grab the cylinder and try and slide it on the grease while looking
through the microscope to where you wanted to probe. Then lower the plate
and gently adjust your probes vertically for contact plus 2-4 mils of
overtravel.

At that point you could hit the lever, the probes would all come up, you
grab the chuck and move it to the next die, and when you moved the lever to
come back down you'd have the same amount of overtravel at the new location.
Repeat for next die, etc.

I sure was happy when they finally got electric driven screws that moved the
chuck. Then it could be computer controlled as well.

Still some of the old manual ones made.

Such as these guys:
http://www.jmicrotechnology.com/

Robert
Click to expand...
The one I bought had micrometer-style adjustments and the stage was
electrically raised and lowered. It also stepped X-Y for automatic
testing.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
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