B
Bart Bervoets
Guest
Does anyone have any large permanent magnet motors that could be used to
build a few micro wind turbines?
Bart Bervoets
build a few micro wind turbines?
Bart Bervoets
J
JB
Guest
"Bart Bervoets" <sunnylion@online.be> wrote in message
news:4a6b4ffa$0$2850$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
motors are built for torque and are supposed to turn a lot faster than a
wind turbine, means what little power you have gets eaten up in a
transmission. Current state of the art has permanent magnets securely
mounted to a disk directly driven by the turbine and the stator windings
mounted stationary to the housing.
news:4a6b4ffa$0$2850$ba620e4c@news.skynet.be...
There are some home made wind power generators that work a lot better. Most
motors are built for torque and are supposed to turn a lot faster than a
wind turbine, means what little power you have gets eaten up in a
transmission. Current state of the art has permanent magnets securely
mounted to a disk directly driven by the turbine and the stator windings
mounted stationary to the housing.
A
Arfa Daily
Guest
"JB" <nospam@goofball.net> wrote in message
news:x3Jam.983$646.195@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
header, that the OP was specifically looking for direct generation of DC. If
I was going to play with this 'on the cheap', I think I would experiment
with a few different automotive alternators from scrappers. Built in reccy.
Built in regulator. As long as you can get it turning fast enough, should be
a reasonably good source of raw DC ?? And if you need AC line power, use it
to charge batteries, and then run an inverter ...
Arfa
news:x3Jam.983$646.195@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
But isn't that going to provide AC ? I got the impression from the post
header, that the OP was specifically looking for direct generation of DC. If
I was going to play with this 'on the cheap', I think I would experiment
with a few different automotive alternators from scrappers. Built in reccy.
Built in regulator. As long as you can get it turning fast enough, should be
a reasonably good source of raw DC ?? And if you need AC line power, use it
to charge batteries, and then run an inverter ...
Arfa
J
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 20:33:35 +0200, Bart Bervoets
<sunnylion@online.be> wrote:
numbers, starting with the average wind speed. That will determine
how much power you can deliver, which will determine the size of the
turbine, which will determine the RPM, which will determine the number
of poles, which will determine the gearing, and which will eventually
determine the specifications of your generator or alternator. When
you're done with that, you might want to check on suitable wide input
range DC to AC inverters. Oh yeah, you might need a tower:
<http://www.homepower.com/view/?file=HP105_pg64_Woofenden>
Light reading and good references:
<http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.shtml>
<http://www.homepower.com/basics/wind/>
<http://www.awea.org>
<http://www.nrel.gov/wind>
You might wanna subscribe to the magazine or get the back issues DVD:
<http://www.homepower.com>
Ideas:
<http://www.aerotecture.com>
and not so good ideas:
<http://www.buildinggreen.com/auth/article.cfm/2009/4/29/The-Folly-of-Building-Integrated-Wind/>
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
<sunnylion@online.be> wrote:
Sure... Everyone has them in stock. All you need to do is supply some
numbers, starting with the average wind speed. That will determine
how much power you can deliver, which will determine the size of the
turbine, which will determine the RPM, which will determine the number
of poles, which will determine the gearing, and which will eventually
determine the specifications of your generator or alternator. When
you're done with that, you might want to check on suitable wide input
range DC to AC inverters. Oh yeah, you might need a tower:
<http://www.homepower.com/view/?file=HP105_pg64_Woofenden>
Light reading and good references:
<http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.shtml>
<http://www.homepower.com/basics/wind/>
<http://www.awea.org>
<http://www.nrel.gov/wind>
You might wanna subscribe to the magazine or get the back issues DVD:
<http://www.homepower.com>
Ideas:
<http://www.aerotecture.com>
and not so good ideas:
<http://www.buildinggreen.com/auth/article.cfm/2009/4/29/The-Folly-of-Building-Integrated-Wind/>
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
J
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:30:37 GMT, "JB" <nospam@goofball.net> wrote:
magnet in between, also known as a PM "pancake" generator/motor.
"PM Wind Generator Comparison of Different Topologies"
<http://people.clarkson.edu/~pillayp/c12.pdf>
<http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/manta.html> (this is a motor but it
can also be used as a generator). Good photos of the construction.
Plenty more found with Google.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Yep. Actually a sandwitch of two stator windings with the permanent
magnet in between, also known as a PM "pancake" generator/motor.
"PM Wind Generator Comparison of Different Topologies"
<http://people.clarkson.edu/~pillayp/c12.pdf>
<http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/manta.html> (this is a motor but it
can also be used as a generator). Good photos of the construction.
Plenty more found with Google.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Guest
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 20:33:35 +0200, Bart Bervoets
<sunnylion@online.be> wrote:
sold for this use.
<sunnylion@online.be> wrote:
If you look on ebay you'll see many used treadmill PMDC motors
sold for this use.
J
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 21:48:07 -0400, tnom@mucks.net wrote:
<http://greenterrafirma.com/wordpress/dc-wind-turbine-motors-on-ebay-beware/>
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Choose your treadmill motor wisely:
<http://greenterrafirma.com/wordpress/dc-wind-turbine-motors-on-ebay-beware/>
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
E
Engineer
Guest
On Jul 25, 8:23 pm, "Arfa Daily" <arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
lossy transmission from a slow propeller with a lot of drive torque.
BTW, you'd get AC and then rectify to DC... not quiet clear from your
post where your "AC" and "DC" should be.
Good luck!
Cheers,
Roger
IIRC, alternators run faster than car engine speed so that means a
lossy transmission from a slow propeller with a lot of drive torque.
BTW, you'd get AC and then rectify to DC... not quiet clear from your
post where your "AC" and "DC" should be.
Good luck!
Cheers,
Roger
M
Meat Plow
Guest
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 20:33:35 +0200, Bart Bervoets
<sunnylion@online.be>wrote:
alternator. Don't know what you would use for a prop maybe some custom
thing out of a polymer like a spinner for a child's toy.
<sunnylion@online.be>wrote:
Find some old DC generators from autos before they started using an
alternator. Don't know what you would use for a prop maybe some custom
thing out of a polymer like a spinner for a child's toy.
B
Bryce
Guest
Meat Plow wrote:
by the commutator and brushes. Isn't it better to eliminate the comm
and brushes (maintenance and friction losses) and rectify with diodes?
That's what an alternator does, although its field is rotating while
the DC motor/generator field is stationary.
A DC generator generates an AC waveform that is mechanically rectified
by the commutator and brushes. Isn't it better to eliminate the comm
and brushes (maintenance and friction losses) and rectify with diodes?
That's what an alternator does, although its field is rotating while
the DC motor/generator field is stationary.
J
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 10:17:56 -0400, Meat Plow <meat@petitmorte.net>
wrote:
<http://www.google.com/patents?id=lHkyAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4>
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
wrote:
Automobile wind generator... Something like this?
<http://www.google.com/patents?id=lHkyAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4>
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Guest
Sounds like an idea generated by an exuberant moron.
A
Arfa Daily
Guest
"Engineer" <junk2007@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:f9e19d21-63bd-478c-a883-c2b1fde07781@k6g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 25, 8:23 pm, "Arfa Daily" <arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
lossy transmission from a slow propeller with a lot of drive torque.
BTW, you'd get AC and then rectify to DC... not quiet clear from your
post where your "AC" and "DC" should be.
Good luck!
Cheers,
Roger
The drive pulley on my alternator is about the same size as the one on the
engine, so alternator speed should be roughly equivalent to engine speed. I
don't know whether modern car alternators still use rotating coils and slip
rings, or rotating magnets and static coils, but either way, I wouldn't have
expected there to have been a lot more mechanical losses than in the modern
wind turbine alternators. You don't need to have a car alternator turning
too fast before it reaches regulated voltage output, but I guess if you
wanted to get much actual power from it, you might need to get it going
quite fast, in which case, what you say about gearbox losses will of course,
be true.
I'm not quite sure where you are having trouble understanding what I was
saying about AC and DC. The op's original header said "DC motors for wind
power". If you use a DC motor backwards, or indeed an old car generator - or
dynamo if you like - to produce your wind driven output, then that output
will be DC. No rectification required. That satisfies what he was asking.
If, on the other hand, you use a rotating magnet, fixed stator coil
generator, then this will be an alternator, and will produce AC, which will
require rectifying to get to his originally stated requirement, yes ?
Arfa
news:f9e19d21-63bd-478c-a883-c2b1fde07781@k6g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 25, 8:23 pm, "Arfa Daily" <arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
IIRC, alternators run faster than car engine speed so that means a
lossy transmission from a slow propeller with a lot of drive torque.
BTW, you'd get AC and then rectify to DC... not quiet clear from your
post where your "AC" and "DC" should be.
Good luck!
Cheers,
Roger
The drive pulley on my alternator is about the same size as the one on the
engine, so alternator speed should be roughly equivalent to engine speed. I
don't know whether modern car alternators still use rotating coils and slip
rings, or rotating magnets and static coils, but either way, I wouldn't have
expected there to have been a lot more mechanical losses than in the modern
wind turbine alternators. You don't need to have a car alternator turning
too fast before it reaches regulated voltage output, but I guess if you
wanted to get much actual power from it, you might need to get it going
quite fast, in which case, what you say about gearbox losses will of course,
be true.
I'm not quite sure where you are having trouble understanding what I was
saying about AC and DC. The op's original header said "DC motors for wind
power". If you use a DC motor backwards, or indeed an old car generator - or
dynamo if you like - to produce your wind driven output, then that output
will be DC. No rectification required. That satisfies what he was asking.
If, on the other hand, you use a rotating magnet, fixed stator coil
generator, then this will be an alternator, and will produce AC, which will
require rectifying to get to his originally stated requirement, yes ?
Arfa
M
Meat Plow
Guest
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 11:26:13 -0400, Bryce <none@invalid.invalid>wrote:
then you regulate the field to regulate the output?
I guess the choice would be up to the OP and his design to store/use
the end product.
Doesn't an alternator need a voltage on the field to make voltage and
then you regulate the field to regulate the output?
I guess the choice would be up to the OP and his design to store/use
the end product.
M
Meat Plow
Guest
On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 08:26:40 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
<jeffl@cruzio.com>wrote:
generators needed about 900 RPM before the reg snapped on and let
charge voltage to the battery. My brother in law owns a 53 Chevy with
the Blue Flame 6 Vette motor and a DC generator. I've worked on his
voltage reg and it's very inefficient.
<jeffl@cruzio.com>wrote:
Well yes without the auto and with direct drive. I think the old Delco
generators needed about 900 RPM before the reg snapped on and let
charge voltage to the battery. My brother in law owns a 53 Chevy with
the Blue Flame 6 Vette motor and a DC generator. I've worked on his
voltage reg and it's very inefficient.
J
JB
Guest
"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:8i6bm.86174$l73.23439@newsfe11.ams2...
motors will make some power if you can spin it.
Useful output demands that you design and build your own or buy the
equipment store bought for the purpose. Using automotive components
requires optimizing the turbine some how to provide adequate torque at high
RPM. The idea is to reduce the losses to the minimum AND design optimize
the turbine AND the generator to the available wind. Also bear in mind that
higher voltages reduce ohmic losses in electrical transmission.
One of the more useful designs for automotive generators and alternators,
was the modified 55 gallon drum turbine on wheel bearings with belt drive.
news:8i6bm.86174$l73.23439@newsfe11.ams2...
than experimenting with toy motors for a science fair project. Most toy
motors will make some power if you can spin it.
Useful output demands that you design and build your own or buy the
equipment store bought for the purpose. Using automotive components
requires optimizing the turbine some how to provide adequate torque at high
RPM. The idea is to reduce the losses to the minimum AND design optimize
the turbine AND the generator to the available wind. Also bear in mind that
higher voltages reduce ohmic losses in electrical transmission.
One of the more useful designs for automotive generators and alternators,
was the modified 55 gallon drum turbine on wheel bearings with belt drive.
J
Jeff Liebermann
Guest
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:29:04 -0400, Meat Plow <meat@petitmorte.net>
wrote:
Ford Falcon. It had a generator and mechanical regulator. That
worked tolerably well until I discovered ham radio. The tube type
mobile radios of the day used either dynamotor or vibrator power
supplies, which were a severe drain on the vehicles electrical system:
<http://gotcomms.com/motorola_old_twoway/>
I vaguely recall something like 6A per radio in receive and 20-60A on
xmit. At my worst, I had 4ea Motorola 80D and 140D radios in the
trunk. The rear springs were bottomed and I could not turn all 4 on
at the same time. To save power, I also installed a "transistor
powered" tube FM radio:
<http://gotcomms.com/motorola_old_radios/motorola_fm900_car-radio.jpg>
which burned an additional 2A. The generator was just not going to
work. I eventually replaced it with an alternator, which worked much
better.
In college, my Ford Falcon generator was converted into a wind
generator. I have some print photos, but I can't find them. In order
to make it work in light winds, I had to use a fairly large pulley
ratio to get the minimum rpm. I don't recall the numbers, but it
worked in a stiff breeze, and was useless at lower wind speeds.
The reason is that wind turbine output varies with the cube of the
wind speed. That means that at low speeds, tiny changes in wind speed
produce rather large changes in delivered power. The generator also
has a rather non-linear shaft RPM to voltage output curve. If the two
curves have their knee points superimposed by proper pulley ratio
selection, which is the best one can do with such a combination, the
result is miserable performance at low wind speeds, and a rather
abrupt increase in output when the wind goes over the knee. As I
recall, there were only two magnets (two poles) and a commutator in
the automobile generator, while the typical PM wind generator might
have 36 or more. The increased number of poles means that the PM
generator will start producing output at 50 RPM, while the automobile
generator will require about 1000 RPM.
There are also problems at the high end, but I won't go there.
I probably have some old alternative energy books on my shelf that
offer plans for using an old automobile generator, but I couldn't find
anything of the sort with Google. This should offer a clue as to its
popularity. This sorta covers the alternatives:
<http://otherpower.com/otherpower_wind_alternators.html>
and does not include the automobile generator.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
wrote:
I thought you might be amused. When I was in college, I had a 1960
Ford Falcon. It had a generator and mechanical regulator. That
worked tolerably well until I discovered ham radio. The tube type
mobile radios of the day used either dynamotor or vibrator power
supplies, which were a severe drain on the vehicles electrical system:
<http://gotcomms.com/motorola_old_twoway/>
I vaguely recall something like 6A per radio in receive and 20-60A on
xmit. At my worst, I had 4ea Motorola 80D and 140D radios in the
trunk. The rear springs were bottomed and I could not turn all 4 on
at the same time. To save power, I also installed a "transistor
powered" tube FM radio:
<http://gotcomms.com/motorola_old_radios/motorola_fm900_car-radio.jpg>
which burned an additional 2A. The generator was just not going to
work. I eventually replaced it with an alternator, which worked much
better.
In college, my Ford Falcon generator was converted into a wind
generator. I have some print photos, but I can't find them. In order
to make it work in light winds, I had to use a fairly large pulley
ratio to get the minimum rpm. I don't recall the numbers, but it
worked in a stiff breeze, and was useless at lower wind speeds.
The reason is that wind turbine output varies with the cube of the
wind speed. That means that at low speeds, tiny changes in wind speed
produce rather large changes in delivered power. The generator also
has a rather non-linear shaft RPM to voltage output curve. If the two
curves have their knee points superimposed by proper pulley ratio
selection, which is the best one can do with such a combination, the
result is miserable performance at low wind speeds, and a rather
abrupt increase in output when the wind goes over the knee. As I
recall, there were only two magnets (two poles) and a commutator in
the automobile generator, while the typical PM wind generator might
have 36 or more. The increased number of poles means that the PM
generator will start producing output at 50 RPM, while the automobile
generator will require about 1000 RPM.
There are also problems at the high end, but I won't go there.
I probably have some old alternative energy books on my shelf that
offer plans for using an old automobile generator, but I couldn't find
anything of the sort with Google. This should offer a clue as to its
popularity. This sorta covers the alternatives:
<http://otherpower.com/otherpower_wind_alternators.html>
and does not include the automobile generator.
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
B
Bryce
Guest
Meat Plow wrote:
field to sweep windings through. There's usually enough residual
magnetic field in the iron from earlier running to get things started.
The alternator on my standby-power set does this. If the residual
is too small or gone, you gotta "flash" the machine with a brief
current pulse from a storage battery to restore the residual.
Superman would use kryptonite instead.
An alternator (or, for that matter, a DC generator) need some magnetic
field to sweep windings through. There's usually enough residual
magnetic field in the iron from earlier running to get things started.
The alternator on my standby-power set does this. If the residual
is too small or gone, you gotta "flash" the machine with a brief
current pulse from a storage battery to restore the residual.
Superman would use kryptonite instead.
A
Arfa Daily
Guest
"JB" <nospam@goofball.net> wrote in message
news:aLkbm.1231$646.135@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
the furnace of a power station, and then just plugging all my equipment into
a socket on the wall of my house, connected to the power company's
distribution grid ...
Arfa
news:aLkbm.1231$646.135@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
Personally, I'm all for pouring the contents of the 55 gallon oil drum into
the furnace of a power station, and then just plugging all my equipment into
a socket on the wall of my house, connected to the power company's
distribution grid ...
Arfa
D
David Nebenzahl
Guest
On 7/26/2009 8:26 AM Bryce spake thus:
just generates plain old DC. Like the ones on old VWs. No diodes.
Dunno how efficient they are compared with alternators, though.
--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism
No, an *alternator* does that (which is why it's so called). A generator
just generates plain old DC. Like the ones on old VWs. No diodes.
Dunno how efficient they are compared with alternators, though.
--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism