Damage to microwave?

[Peter Rossiter]

By mistake I left a metal object (like a spoon) in my microwave
oven at home and switched it on.

Lots and lots of sparks.

But the microwave still worked afterwards.

If I make this mistake again then do I actually risk doing damage
to any components inside the microwave oven? Or is the risk mainly
from all the sparks.

 

[Gregory L. Hansen]

In article <Wdj4c.18548$h44.2112801@stones.force9.net>,
Ian Stirling <root@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:

In sci.physics Peter Rossiter <not_me@mail.com> wrote:
By mistake I left a metal object (like a spoon) in my microwave
oven at home and switched it on.

Lots and lots of sparks.

But the microwave still worked afterwards.

If I make this mistake again then do I actually risk doing damage
to any components inside the microwave oven? Or is the risk mainly
from all the sparks.

It kind-of-depends.
It can damage the magnetron, or cause fires, and mean you need to
replace the microwave or structure that contains it if very unlucky.
Avoid if possible.

I've always been told I need a load in the microwave, like food, or it
might be damaged. How is it damaged?


--
"We don't grow up hearing stories around the camp fire anymore about
cultural figures. Instead we get them from books, TV or movies, so the
characters that today provide us a common language are corporate
creatures" -- Rebecca Tushnet

 

[Gregory L. Hansen]

In article <i4l4c.10350$Nj.4821@fed1read01>,
Mark Fergerson <nunya@biz.ness> wrote:

Gregory L. Hansen wrote:

If the cavity _isn't_ lossy, the microwaves have no place
to dissipate and their energy will simply build up and be
reflected back to the magnetron. It's reflected back because
the cavity walls are poor absorbers by design.

The voltages induced by the fields rapidly build up to
the point where arcing occurs, and that's most likely to
happen where conductors are closely spaced (in the
magnetron, its antenna structure, and that part of the
waveguide the antenna enters). You (usually) won't get
arcing near the door seals because they're designed to be at
low-field points.

It seems like a sensor that will detect such an unsafe condition,
triggering a shutdown and beeping out an alert for the user, should be a
required peice of equipment.

I think that about covers it.

Looks like. Thanks.

--
"A good plan executed right now is far better than a perfect plan
executed next week."
-Gen. George S. Patton

 

[Ian Stirling]

In sci.physics Peter Rossiter <not_me@mail.com> wrote:

By mistake I left a metal object (like a spoon) in my microwave
oven at home and switched it on.

Lots and lots of sparks.

But the microwave still worked afterwards.

If I make this mistake again then do I actually risk doing damage
to any components inside the microwave oven? Or is the risk mainly
from all the sparks.

It kind-of-depends.
It can damage the magnetron, or cause fires, and mean you need to
replace the microwave or structure that contains it if very unlucky.
Avoid if possible.

 

[Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun]

Peter Rossiter wrote:

By mistake I left a metal object (like a spoon) in my microwave
oven at home and switched it on.

Lots and lots of sparks.

But the microwave still worked afterwards.

If I make this mistake again then do I actually risk doing damage
to any components inside the microwave oven? Or is the risk mainly
from all the sparks.

If you make the standing wave ratio too high, the magnetron tube or its
associated components may arc over from the excessive voltage.

BZZZZT! Smoke.....

 

[Mark Fergerson]

Gregory L. Hansen wrote:

In article <Wdj4c.18548$h44.2112801@stones.force9.net>,
Ian Stirling <root@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:

In sci.physics Peter Rossiter <not_me@mail.com> wrote:

By mistake I left a metal object (like a spoon) in my microwave
oven at home and switched it on.

Lots and lots of sparks.

But the microwave still worked afterwards.

If I make this mistake again then do I actually risk doing damage
to any components inside the microwave oven? Or is the risk mainly
from all the sparks.

It kind-of-depends.
It can damage the magnetron, or cause fires, and mean you need to
replace the microwave or structure that contains it if very unlucky.
Avoid if possible.

I've always been told I need a load in the microwave, like food, or it
might be damaged. How is it damaged?

A microwave oven is essentially a lossy nonresonant
cavity (the place you put the food) connected by a waveguide
to the magnetron (which generates the microwaves). The
cavity is lossy because the load (food) dissipates the
microwave energy as heat.

If the cavity _isn't_ lossy, the microwaves have no place
to dissipate and their energy will simply build up and be
reflected back to the magnetron. It's reflected back because
the cavity walls are poor absorbers by design.

The voltages induced by the fields rapidly build up to
the point where arcing occurs, and that's most likely to
happen where conductors are closely spaced (in the
magnetron, its antenna structure, and that part of the
waveguide the antenna enters). You (usually) won't get
arcing near the door seals because they're designed to be at
low-field points.

Arcing can do several kinds of damage; it can heat the
antenna to the melting point so that the magnetron is
short-circuited, it can cause secondary emission within the
magnetron itself, or heating of the waveguide where the
antenna enters, or all the above.

Since the cavity isn't resonant there will be places
where the field-induced voltages can approach the arcing
point as well, which is why you don't want to put metal
objects in the cavity with or without a load.

If you're lucky, the arc current will trip a breaker
before a fire starts.

I think that about covers it.

Mark L. Fergerson

 

[Gregory L. Hansen]

In article <c2t81t$rul$1@info4.fnal.gov>, EjP <nospam@hackers.are.bad> wrote:

Peter Rossiter wrote:
By mistake I left a metal object (like a spoon) in my microwave
oven at home and switched it on.

Lots and lots of sparks.

But the microwave still worked afterwards.

If I make this mistake again then do I actually risk doing damage
to any components inside the microwave oven? Or is the risk mainly
from all the sparks.

They recently devoted a slot on Mythbusters to microwave ovens.
Their remark on this issue was that significant chunks of metal
left in a microwave could *potentially* damage the magnetron, so they
didn't recommend doing it.

Of course, as you might expect, they went on to do it
and nothing bad happened.

If you want to see cool sparks in a microwave, I recommend
using someone else's.

I bought one cheap at the GoodWill for such experiments.


--
"The polhode rolls without slipping on the herpolhode lying in the
invariable plane." -- Goldstein, Classical Mechanics 2nd. ed., p207.

 

[EjP]

Peter Rossiter wrote:

By mistake I left a metal object (like a spoon) in my microwave
oven at home and switched it on.

Lots and lots of sparks.

But the microwave still worked afterwards.

If I make this mistake again then do I actually risk doing damage
to any components inside the microwave oven? Or is the risk mainly
from all the sparks.

They recently devoted a slot on Mythbusters to microwave ovens.
Their remark on this issue was that significant chunks of metal
left in a microwave could *potentially* damage the magnetron, so they
didn't recommend doing it.

Of course, as you might expect, they went on to do it
and nothing bad happened.

If you want to see cool sparks in a microwave, I recommend
using someone else's.

-E

 

[Mark Fergerson]

Gregory L. Hansen wrote:

In article <i4l4c.10350$Nj.4821@fed1read01>,
Mark Fergerson <nunya@biz.ness> wrote:

Gregory L. Hansen wrote:


If the cavity _isn't_ lossy, the microwaves have no place
to dissipate and their energy will simply build up and be
reflected back to the magnetron. It's reflected back because
the cavity walls are poor absorbers by design.

The voltages induced by the fields rapidly build up to
the point where arcing occurs, and that's most likely to
happen where conductors are closely spaced (in the
magnetron, its antenna structure, and that part of the
waveguide the antenna enters). You (usually) won't get
arcing near the door seals because they're designed to be at
low-field points.


It seems like a sensor that will detect such an unsafe condition,
triggering a shutdown and beeping out an alert for the user, should be a
required peice of equipment.

For most people the sparks and smoke (and the smoke
detector in the kitchen going off) should be adequate fault
condition indicators. Even if the oven suffers permanent
damage, they're so cheap there's no point in repairing them
which is an idea I support. More parts for people like us to
play with!

Mark L. Fergerson

 

[Yrrah]

Put a glass of water (as a load) in te microwave and a cd you won't need
anymore (for fun). One minute full power will give you a nice small bonfire.
Pretty harmless I think. Also a good idea to purposely render cd's useless.
Cheers,
Harke

--


---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Are you still wasting your time with spam?...
There is a solution!"

Protected by GIANT Company's Spam Inspector
The most powerful anti-spam software available.
http://mail.spaminspector.com


Gregory L. Hansen <glhansen@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> schreef in berichtnieuws
c2t8uj$7ce$4@hood.uits.indiana.edu...
>

 

[tadchem]

"Peter Rossiter" <not_me@mail.com> wrote in message
news:94AA81FE555FB471AE@130.133.1.4...

By mistake I left a metal object (like a spoon) in my microwave
oven at home and switched it on.

Lots and lots of sparks.

But the microwave still worked afterwards.

If I make this mistake again then do I actually risk doing damage
to any components inside the microwave oven? Or is the risk mainly
from all the sparks.

"Sparking" is just a symptom.

It is telling you that the intensity of microwaves is so high that metal is
melting, which usually is not good. Globs of molten aluminum, iron, etc.
can cause damage when they start flying around.

Some of the most important working parts of the device are metal, like the
magnetron and several electrical wires. These can be damaged directly as
they become sources of sparks.

To keep this from happening you need something in the box which will absorb
microwaves and keep the intensity from getting too high. Anything with
water in it is good.

Some scientific laboratories use microwaves to "digest" samples prior to
analysis. The procedures I have seen always demand that a container of
water is present before starting the digestion.

Microwaving of metal objects should only be performed under constant
observation by properly trained personnel under controlled conditions.
"Accidents" can lead to damage to the device, microwave leakage outside the
box into the room, and possibly even injury to personnel.


Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA

 

[Ed Price]

"Mark Fergerson" <nunya@biz.ness> wrote in message
news:i4l4c.10350$Nj.4821@fed1read01...

Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
In article <Wdj4c.18548$h44.2112801@stones.force9.net>,
Ian Stirling <root@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote:

In sci.physics Peter Rossiter <not_me@mail.com> wrote:

By mistake I left a metal object (like a spoon) in my microwave
oven at home and switched it on.

Lots and lots of sparks.

But the microwave still worked afterwards.

If I make this mistake again then do I actually risk doing damage
to any components inside the microwave oven? Or is the risk mainly
from all the sparks.

It kind-of-depends.
It can damage the magnetron, or cause fires, and mean you need to
replace the microwave or structure that contains it if very unlucky.
Avoid if possible.

I've always been told I need a load in the microwave, like food, or it
might be damaged. How is it damaged?

A microwave oven is essentially a lossy nonresonant
cavity (the place you put the food) connected by a waveguide
to the magnetron (which generates the microwaves). The
cavity is lossy because the load (food) dissipates the
microwave energy as heat.

If the cavity _isn't_ lossy, the microwaves have no place
to dissipate and their energy will simply build up and be
reflected back to the magnetron. It's reflected back because
the cavity walls are poor absorbers by design.

The voltages induced by the fields rapidly build up to
the point where arcing occurs, and that's most likely to
happen where conductors are closely spaced (in the
magnetron, its antenna structure, and that part of the
waveguide the antenna enters). You (usually) won't get
arcing near the door seals because they're designed to be at
low-field points.

Arcing can do several kinds of damage; it can heat the
antenna to the melting point so that the magnetron is
short-circuited, it can cause secondary emission within the
magnetron itself, or heating of the waveguide where the
antenna enters, or all the above.

Since the cavity isn't resonant there will be places
where the field-induced voltages can approach the arcing
point as well, which is why you don't want to put metal
objects in the cavity with or without a load.

If you're lucky, the arc current will trip a breaker
before a fire starts.

I think that about covers it.

Mark L. Fergerson

I have seen an oven with physical damage caused by arcing during reasonably
foreseeable operation. A friend once mentioned to me that her oven sometimes
"made sparks" when she was heating food. I looked at the oven, and found
that the motorized carousel tray had a rather sloppy self-centering hub. If
you removed the circular metal carousel tray for cleaning, you had a fairly
good chance of replacing it a little bit off-center on the motorized hub.
When the carousel rotated during normal oven operation, the thin edge of the
off-center tray passed very close (less than 1/4") to the oven walls. And on
the left, rear and right stainless-steel oven walls, there were deep, 1.5"
long erosion marks where an arc had been repetitively struck and dragged by
the rotating carousel tray. The wall erosion was very noticeable, and, given
enough time, I think would eventually cut through the oven walls. As the
oven walls also act as the main RF shielding, this would have eventually
created a dangerous RF leak.

BTW, this oven was about 3 years old at the time. The owner usually used the
750 Watt oven for light duty (cup of coffee, popcorn, frozen dinners), and
thought nothing was odd about the arcing. Perhaps a heavier food loading
would absorb enough RF so as to prevent arcing. Regardless, I estimated that
the erosion was about 1/3 of the way through the 18-gauge (?) walls. Since
the magnetron appeared to be undamaged (the oven heated 8 ounces of water
quite rapidly), I think the oven would have had a long enough life to
eventually become an RF hazard.

I always check oven carousels now to see if they are centered.

Ed

 

[Gregory L. Hansen]

In article <405365EB.F18A987C@comcast.net>,
Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net> wrote:

Our first microwave oven was one of the original Amana ovens.
It served us well, for many years, until it started "eating"
a circular hole at one particular point on the inside surface
of the door. It ate completely through the metal. I first
tried to pack the hole with aluminum foil. That seemed to stop
any more erosion at the original site, but a new hole immediately
started to form near the original (now filled) hole. We asked
a repair shop to install a new door. They did, but then noticed
that the new door immediately started to be eaten, in about
the same spot as the original hole on the original door.
They removed the new door (didn't charge us), and advised us
to junk the oven. (The original hole was about a half inch in
diameter when I packed it).

Anyone know what caused that oven to start consuming itself?
(It seemed to heat food just as it always had).

Mike Fontenot

I'm no expert, I'm just passing gas. But fields concentrate around
sharp edges. Maybe there was a nick or other "starter" that could trigger
ionization of the air. Arcing systems can grow whiskers which would act
like little antennas and keep things going.


--
"For every problem there is a solution which is simple, clean and wrong."
-- Henry Louis Mencken

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"EjP" <nospam@hackers.are.bad> wrote in message
news:c2t81t$rul$1@info4.fnal.gov...
[snip]

If you want to see cool sparks in a microwave, I recommend
using someone else's.

Steel wool makes a spectacular display. So do those AOL CD-ROMS that
seem to appear out of nowhere and accumulate.

Here are some other cool things to do:
http://margo.student.utwente.nl/el/microwave/

> -E

 

[Jim Adney]

On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 19:56:16 GMT Mike Fontenot <mlfasf@comcast.net>
wrote:

Our first microwave oven was one of the original Amana ovens.
It served us well, for many years, until it started "eating"
a circular hole at one particular point on the inside surface
of the door. It ate completely through the metal. I first
tried to pack the hole with aluminum foil. That seemed to stop
any more erosion at the original site, but a new hole immediately
started to form near the original (now filled) hole. We asked
a repair shop to install a new door. They did, but then noticed
that the new door immediately started to be eaten, in about
the same spot as the original hole on the original door.
They removed the new door (didn't charge us), and advised us
to junk the oven. (The original hole was about a half inch in
diameter when I packed it).

Anyone know what caused that oven to start consuming itself?
(It seemed to heat food just as it always had).

I'm just guessing, but did that oven have a stirrer? A stirrer is a
thing that look pretty much like a fan blade and is turned by an
electric motor. It's function is to change the metal reflecting
surfaces in the over such that the standing wave pattern never stays
stationary. These stirrers are usually not visible, they are often
behind a plastic panel so that most users will never even know that
they are there.

In general, I always thought their purpose was to assist in even
heating of the food, but in your case I wonder if the stirrer had
seized up. leaving the standing wave pattern stationary. If this led
to putting a high field permanently in one place against your door, I
suppose this could have caused the problem.

Did you by any chance notice that your food was not being heated as
evenly as before?

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney jadney@vwtype3.org
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

 

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