Computer totally freezing after a few min

[Ray]

I have a few year old computer (clone, I built with VIA chipset) that has
suddenly started to completely freeze.
The image stays on the screen but the computer is completely frozen. CTRL
ALT DEL does nothing and even a reset via the reset button just brings up a
black screen (no BIOS text, no beeps, nothing).

If I power down completely Windows will boot and the system works for a
while (5 min to a hour tops) and then freezes again.

The computer has a removable drive and I have tried it with several
different boot drives. They all freeze so I know it is not a software
problem. I actually have 5 drives that I use for different tasks which is
one of the reasons I would rather repair this few year old computer rather
than getting a new one (the thought of installing & configuring 5 OS's ...).

I opened the PC and reseated all the cards & RAM. Cleaned all the fans and
heat sinks.
Have tried a different video card and removed all but one stick of RAM.

Pretty much the only components I have not eliminated is the power supply,
motherboard and CPU.

Does this sound like a PS issue to anyone?

Also 3 of the larger caps on the motherboard near the CPU have the slightest
of buldges (very little, but they are not flat like the others). My guess is
that these 3 caps are what is causing the problem, but I would like to hear
from the experts.

If you guys think it is the caps Im pretty good with a soldering iron. Is
this something that is replaceable? Do these traces usually go all the way
through the board. I dont want to remove everything yet, will do this as a
last resort especially if it sounds like the problem is the caps.

Thanks

 

[Rich Webb]

On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 11:11:00 -0500, "Ray" <N@NE.nothing> wrote:

I have a few year old computer (clone, I built with VIA chipset) that has
suddenly started to completely freeze.
[snippety snip]
Pretty much the only components I have not eliminated is the power supply,
motherboard and CPU.

Try Memtest86 and/or Memtest86+ (competing products (free) that once
shared a common code base) for some additional insight. Each can be run
from a boot floppy or CD.

Does this sound like a PS issue to anyone?

Could be.

Also 3 of the larger caps on the motherboard near the CPU have the slightest
of buldges (very little, but they are not flat like the others). My guess is
that these 3 caps are what is causing the problem, but I would like to hear
from the experts.

If you guys think it is the caps Im pretty good with a soldering iron. Is
this something that is replaceable?

Yes, probably, but you'll have to be the judge as to whether your
experience and tools are adequate.

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

 

[Ray]

"Rich Webb" <bbew.ar@mapson.nozirev.ten> wrote in message
news:a89pk5527squojudoiq2as9rgreh3ph138@4ax.com...

On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 11:11:00 -0500, "Ray" <N@NE.nothing> wrote:

I have a few year old computer (clone, I built with VIA chipset) that has
suddenly started to completely freeze.
[snippety snip]
Pretty much the only components I have not eliminated is the power supply,
motherboard and CPU.

Try Memtest86 and/or Memtest86+ (competing products (free) that once
shared a common code base) for some additional insight. Each can be run
from a boot floppy or CD.

Does this sound like a PS issue to anyone?

Could be.

Also 3 of the larger caps on the motherboard near the CPU have the
slightest
of buldges (very little, but they are not flat like the others). My guess
is
that these 3 caps are what is causing the problem, but I would like to
hear
from the experts.

If you guys think it is the caps Im pretty good with a soldering iron. Is
this something that is replaceable?

Yes, probably, but you'll have to be the judge as to whether your
experience and tools are adequate.

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

Thanks for your reply.

MemTest86 came back clean. I dont think it is the RAM as I took out all
sticks but one, had the same problem, then swapped out the one reaming stick
for another one and still had the problem. So unless all the RAM was damaged
(an MemTest said no) then it isnt the RAM.

I'm going to look through my spare parts to try to find a PS and RAM just to
100% rule them out.

If I find another CPU with the same type of socket can I swap that in (ie if
it fits will it work on the MB?).
Also, if the caps are bad would this damage the CPU or just make the CPU
voltage unstable (If I find a CPU that fist will I damage it by trying it on
a MB with bad caps)?

Thanks again

 

[whit3rd]

On Jan 12, 1:09 pm, "Ray" <N...@NE.nothing> wrote:

I have a few year old computer (clone, I built with VIA chipset) that has
suddenly started to completely freeze.

If I find another CPU with the same type of socket can I swap that in (ie if
it fits will it work on the MB?).

Specific CPU requirements (core voltage) aren't always compatible on
all motherboards; modern ones are better.

The 'few minutes' symptom appearance suggests heatsink issues;
have you checked all the thermal pads/heatsink goo connections between
chips and heatsinks? A temperature-watchdog circuit would freeze the
system AND disable most reset functions. A voltage-watchdog would
be more likely to shutdown or reset (neither of which is seen).

Instead of using a different CPU, consider (depending on what the BIOS
allows)
underclocking the one you have.

 

[Ray]

"whit3rd" <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9da9a8d2-f44f-482a-b0d7-2a2ce6aa0557@d30g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 12, 1:09 pm, "Ray" <N...@NE.nothing> wrote:

I have a few year old computer (clone, I built with VIA chipset) that
has
suddenly started to completely freeze.

If I find another CPU with the same type of socket can I swap that in (ie
if
it fits will it work on the MB?).

Specific CPU requirements (core voltage) aren't always compatible on
all motherboards; modern ones are better.

The 'few minutes' symptom appearance suggests heatsink issues;
have you checked all the thermal pads/heatsink goo connections between
chips and heatsinks? A temperature-watchdog circuit would freeze the
system AND disable most reset functions. A voltage-watchdog would
be more likely to shutdown or reset (neither of which is seen).

Instead of using a different CPU, consider (depending on what the BIOS
allows)
underclocking the one you have.


I have not check the heatsink compound on the CPU. I didn't want to pry it
up until I was sure this was the route I wanted to take. A few years ago
when I built he computer I used Arctic Silver heat sink compound and a
whoopy-do high tech fan.

Ho can I tell if any of the other CPUs will be compatible (I don't have any
specs on them and would be just transplanting them from another old system)?

I would hate to under clock as a permanent solution. I would consider
upgrading the MB and processor, but I have a feeling that if I'm not careful
will run into a BSOD with a different drive controller on new MB. Might also
have problems with Widows activation as there will be such a radical change
to hardware.

Thanks

 

[baron]

Ray Inscribed thus:

Also 3 of the larger caps on the motherboard near the CPU have the
slightest of buldges (very little, but they are not flat like the
others). My guess is that these 3 caps are what is causing the
problem, but I would like to hear from the experts.

If you guys think it is the caps Im pretty good with a soldering iron.
Is this something that is replaceable? Do these traces usually go all
the way through the board. I dont want to remove everything yet, will
do this as a last resort especially if it sounds like the problem is
the caps.

Thanks

What you are describing is almost certainly "bad caps" It sounds like
its a K6 M/B ! At that age the caps can be bad without showing any
physical signs. Just replace the lot ! Thats all I do. Use good
quality 105C caps. If you can't get the exact value in the correct
case size use the next higher value. ie 2200 @6v use 2500 @6v.


--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[Ray]

"baron" <baron.nospam@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:hikkkq$mdu$1@news.eternal-september.org...

Ray Inscribed thus:

Also 3 of the larger caps on the motherboard near the CPU have the
slightest of buldges (very little, but they are not flat like the
others). My guess is that these 3 caps are what is causing the
problem, but I would like to hear from the experts.

If you guys think it is the caps Im pretty good with a soldering iron.
Is this something that is replaceable? Do these traces usually go all
the way through the board. I dont want to remove everything yet, will
do this as a last resort especially if it sounds like the problem is
the caps.

Thanks

What you are describing is almost certainly "bad caps" It sounds like
its a K6 M/B ! At that age the caps can be bad without showing any
physical signs. Just replace the lot ! Thats all I do. Use good
quality 105C caps. If you can't get the exact value in the correct
case size use the next higher value. ie 2200 @6v use 2500 @6v.


--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Thanks. I'm headed in that direction.

 

[whit3rd]

On Jan 12, 6:51 pm, "Ray" <N...@NE.nothing> wrote:

Specific CPU requirements (core voltage) aren't always compatible on
all motherboards; modern ones are better.

Ho can I tell if any of the other CPUs will be compatible (I don't have any
specs on them and would be just transplanting them from another old system)?

I would hate to under clock as a permanent solution. I would consider
upgrading the MB and processor

To determine compatibility, you need to squint and make out the part
numbers
on the logic board, and on the CPU chip. Do a search on that string,
you will
likely find all the manuals online, and the voltage ranges and setting
details
are all in there. Somewhere.

You might be pleasantly surprised at how little difference
underclocking makes...
even more pleasantly surprised if it DOES fix the problem. If this
is a Socket 7
motherboard, a new CPU or motherboard or even RAM is not really
possible;
none of the current hardware is plug-compatible.

 

[JeffM]

Ray wrote:
When stupid "designers" in Redmond, Washington
produce broken-by-design pseudo-Usenet-clients
it serves to screw up Usenet.

In turn, those who use those crappy products
make it difficult to read the Usenet posts that they make.
Some of those users know to hand-format their posts
in a standard format and they do that.

....then there are people like you who don't hand-format
AND don't apply ALL the patches available for their crap software:
http://google.com/search?q=inurl:jain+%22+OE.doesn't.exactly.feature.the.most.intelligent.quoting.algorithm

 

On Jan 13, 8:08 am, "Ray" <N...@NE.nothing> wrote:

"baron" <baron.nos...@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote in message

news:hikkkq$mdu$1@news.eternal-september.org...





Ray Inscribed thus:

Also 3 of the larger caps on the motherboard near the CPU have the
slightest of buldges (very little, but they are not flat like the
others). My guess is that these 3 caps are what is causing the
problem, but I would like to hear from the experts.

If you guys think it is the caps Im pretty good with a soldering iron.
Is this something that is replaceable? Do these traces usually go all
the way through the board. I dont want to remove everything yet, will
do this as a last resort especially if it sounds like the problem is
the caps.

Thanks

What you are describing is almost certainly "bad caps"  It sounds like
its a K6 M/B !  At that age the caps can be bad without showing any
physical signs.  Just replace the lot !  Thats all I do.  Use good
quality 105C caps.  If you can't get the exact value in the correct
case size use the next higher value.  ie 2200 @6v use 2500 @6v.

--
Best Regards:
               Baron.

Thanks. I'm headed in that direction.

I agree on capacitors as I replace very many, and some not all that
old. I bought lots from Digikey but for motherboards I had a little
better luck with Mouser and Nichicon. You do need a really good
soldering iron to not damage the 4 (or more) layer boards and don't
forget to clean off the flux residue.

G˛

 

[baron]

stratus46@yahoo.com Inscribed thus:

On Jan 13, 8:08 am, "Ray" <N...@NE.nothing> wrote:
"baron" <baron.nos...@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote in message

news:hikkkq$mdu$1@news.eternal-september.org...





Ray Inscribed thus:

Also 3 of the larger caps on the motherboard near the CPU have the
slightest of buldges (very little, but they are not flat like the
others). My guess is that these 3 caps are what is causing the
problem, but I would like to hear from the experts.

If you guys think it is the caps Im pretty good with a soldering
iron. Is this something that is replaceable? Do these traces
usually go all the way through the board. I dont want to remove
everything yet, will do this as a last resort especially if it
sounds like the problem is the caps.

Thanks

What you are describing is almost certainly "bad caps"  It sounds
like its a K6 M/B !  At that age the caps can be bad without
showing any physical signs.  Just replace the lot !  Thats all I
do.  Use good quality 105C caps.  If you can't get the exact value
in the correct case size use the next higher value.  ie 2200 @6v
use 2500 @6v.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Thanks. I'm headed in that direction.

I agree on capacitors as I replace very many, and some not all that
old. I bought lots from Digikey but for motherboards I had a little
better luck with Mouser and Nichicon. You do need a really good
soldering iron to not damage the 4 (or more) layer boards and don't
forget to clean off the flux residue.

G²

I second your comments about Nichcon. I also use Panasonic and Rubycon !
A really good soldering iron and a preheat plate will help. The ground
planes will really suck the heat out of an inadequate iron.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[Ray]

"whit3rd" <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:670a7836-1bb5-4488-81b7-dcccde129745@g31g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 12, 6:51 pm, "Ray" <N...@NE.nothing> wrote:

Specific CPU requirements (core voltage) aren't always compatible on
all motherboards; modern ones are better.

Ho can I tell if any of the other CPUs will be compatible (I don't have
any
specs on them and would be just transplanting them from another old
system)?

I would hate to under clock as a permanent solution. I would consider
upgrading the MB and processor

To determine compatibility, you need to squint and make out the part
numbers
on the logic board, and on the CPU chip. Do a search on that string,
you will
likely find all the manuals online, and the voltage ranges and setting
details
are all in there. Somewhere.

You might be pleasantly surprised at how little difference
underclocking makes...
even more pleasantly surprised if it DOES fix the problem. If this
is a Socket 7
motherboard, a new CPU or motherboard or even RAM is not really
possible;
none of the current hardware is plug-compatible.

I'm going to try underclocking it and see if it helps the problem.
It is a socket 478. I have the original manual with specs. What particular
specs am I looking for to match with a new CPU?

 

[Ray]

<stratus46@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3c971f6a-e5e9-4f56-a900-4d434c64515f@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 13, 8:08 am, "Ray" <N...@NE.nothing> wrote:

"baron" <baron.nos...@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote in message

news:hikkkq$mdu$1@news.eternal-september.org...





Ray Inscribed thus:

Also 3 of the larger caps on the motherboard near the CPU have the
slightest of buldges (very little, but they are not flat like the
others). My guess is that these 3 caps are what is causing the
problem, but I would like to hear from the experts.

If you guys think it is the caps Im pretty good with a soldering iron.
Is this something that is replaceable? Do these traces usually go all
the way through the board. I dont want to remove everything yet, will
do this as a last resort especially if it sounds like the problem is
the caps.

Thanks

What you are describing is almost certainly "bad caps" It sounds like
its a K6 M/B ! At that age the caps can be bad without showing any
physical signs. Just replace the lot ! Thats all I do. Use good
quality 105C caps. If you can't get the exact value in the correct
case size use the next higher value. ie 2200 @6v use 2500 @6v.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Thanks. I'm headed in that direction.

I agree on capacitors as I replace very many, and some not all that
old. I bought lots from Digikey but for motherboards I had a little
better luck with Mouser and Nichicon. You do need a really good
soldering iron to not damage the 4 (or more) layer boards and don't
forget to clean off the flux residue.

G˛

I haven't pulled the board yet to look. Do you think the cap connection will
go all the way through and be accessible from the bottom of the board? Do
you recommend using a desoldering pump, desolder braid, or just heating and
pulling the old cap out. Then to clean the hole to insert the new part what
is the best practice?

 

[bw]

"Ray" <N@NE.nothing> wrote in message
news:JJ6dnSf4MqHVktLWnZ2dnUVZ_tWdnZ2d@earthlink.com...

stratus46@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3c971f6a-e5e9-4f56-a900-4d434c64515f@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 13, 8:08 am, "Ray" <N...@NE.nothing> wrote:
"baron" <baron.nos...@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote in message

news:hikkkq$mdu$1@news.eternal-september.org...





Ray Inscribed thus:

Also 3 of the larger caps on the motherboard near the CPU have the
slightest of buldges (very little, but they are not flat like the
others). My guess is that these 3 caps are what is causing the
problem, but I would like to hear from the experts.

If you guys think it is the caps Im pretty good with a soldering iron.
Is this something that is replaceable? Do these traces usually go all
the way through the board. I dont want to remove everything yet, will
do this as a last resort especially if it sounds like the problem is
the caps.

Thanks

What you are describing is almost certainly "bad caps" It sounds like
its a K6 M/B ! At that age the caps can be bad without showing any
physical signs. Just replace the lot ! Thats all I do. Use good
quality 105C caps. If you can't get the exact value in the correct
case size use the next higher value. ie 2200 @6v use 2500 @6v.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

Thanks. I'm headed in that direction.

I agree on capacitors as I replace very many, and some not all that
old. I bought lots from Digikey but for motherboards I had a little
better luck with Mouser and Nichicon. You do need a really good
soldering iron to not damage the 4 (or more) layer boards and don't
forget to clean off the flux residue.

G˛

I haven't pulled the board yet to look. Do you think the cap connection
will go all the way through and be accessible from the bottom of the
board? Do you recommend using a desoldering pump, desolder braid, or just
heating and pulling the old cap out. Then to clean the hole to insert the
new part what is the best practice?

Don't worry about desoldering. Just pull the old caps. Then use a small
drill to clean out the holes.
I use a dremel drill with a micro-chuck. Place the new cap, then solder with
plenty of heat to wick the fresh solder fully into the joint.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

bw wrote:

Don't worry about desoldering. Just pull the old caps. Then use a small
drill to clean out the holes.
I use a dremel drill with a micro-chuck. Place the new cap, then solder with
plenty of heat to wick the fresh solder fully into the joint.

That is a great way to destroy the plated through holes.


--
Greed is the root of all eBay.

 

[whit3rd]

On Jan 15, 4:44 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

Don't worry about desoldering. Just pull the old caps. Then use a small
drill to clean out the holes.

   That is a great way to destroy the plated through holes.

True.

The big capacitors that failed are probably in plated-through holes,
meaning
that there are two wires that go into a hole in the board, which is
soldered
along its full length, with a little blob (fillet) of solder on the
non-component
side. As M.T. indicated, the solder joint COULD pull internal board
layers
apart if you just 'pull' the old caps.

So, you have to crush the capacitors, removing the bulky component
except for those soldered wires. Then, clean, flux, and gently remove
one wire at a time. It sometimes requires two soldering irons to get
this
kind of joint up to temperature, one on each side of the board;
removing
the capacitor body gives you the extra access to do that.

Solder braid may remove enough solder to loosen the wire, but if it
doesn't come loose, ADD fresh solder to the joint; the old solder
may have dissolved copper and taken on a high melting point,
the fresh solder will get it back to normal loose-when-hot
consistency. When the wires are out, use braid or a vacuum
desoldering tool to open the hole fully (more flux might help).
When all the capacitors are out, and all the holes clear,
stuff the new components in, solder, and clean up the flux.

 

[bw]

"whit3rd" <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4b301c2-a286-46be-a49a-ac5f075a6900@o3g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 15, 4:44 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

Don't worry about desoldering. Just pull the old caps. Then use a small
drill to clean out the holes.

That is a great way to destroy the plated through holes.

True.

The big capacitors that failed are probably in plated-through holes,
meaning
that there are two wires that go into a hole in the board, which is
soldered
along its full length, with a little blob (fillet) of solder on the
non-component
side. As M.T. indicated, the solder joint COULD pull internal board
layers
apart if you just 'pull' the old caps.

At least 50 caps replaced on PC boards with Zero problems. It's easy.
Obviously the drill diam. is less than the original lead diam.
I've been hand soldering electronics 40 years.

 

[krw]

On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 16:32:58 -0600, "bw" <bwegher@hotmail.com> wrote:

"whit3rd" <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4b301c2-a286-46be-a49a-ac5f075a6900@o3g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 15, 4:44 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:

Don't worry about desoldering. Just pull the old caps. Then use a small
drill to clean out the holes.

That is a great way to destroy the plated through holes.

True.

The big capacitors that failed are probably in plated-through holes,
meaning
that there are two wires that go into a hole in the board, which is
soldered
along its full length, with a little blob (fillet) of solder on the
non-component
side. As M.T. indicated, the solder joint COULD pull internal board
layers
apart if you just 'pull' the old caps.

At least 50 caps replaced on PC boards with Zero problems. It's easy.

It's also easy to damage a board. A better solution is to heat up the
pad an poke a cold resistor lead, or some such, through the hole. This
will clear the solder without damaging the barrel.

Obviously the drill diam. is less than the original lead diam.
I've been hand soldering electronics 40 years.

That just means you may have a lot of experience doing things wrong.
;-)

 

[Baron]

bw Inscribed thus:

I haven't pulled the board yet to look. Do you think the cap
connection will go all the way through and be accessible from the
bottom of the board? Do you recommend using a desoldering pump,
desolder braid, or just heating and pulling the old cap out. Then to
clean the hole to insert the new part what is the best practice?

If you do it properly the hole will be cleaned by the vacuum pump.

Don't worry about desoldering. Just pull the old caps. Then use a
small drill to clean out the holes.
I use a dremel drill with a micro-chuck.

Fastest way to destroy a plated through hole !

Place the new cap, then solder with plenty of heat to wick the fresh
solder fully into the joint.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

 

[T]

In article <dg02l5l8jgsmc37tf3vcdbeoih81qpfpj0@4ax.com>,
krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz says...

On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 16:32:58 -0600, "bw" <bwegher@hotmail.com> wrote:


"whit3rd" <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4b301c2-a286-46be-a49a-ac5f075a6900@o3g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 15, 4:44 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:

Don't worry about desoldering. Just pull the old caps. Then use a small
drill to clean out the holes.

That is a great way to destroy the plated through holes.

True.

The big capacitors that failed are probably in plated-through holes,
meaning
that there are two wires that go into a hole in the board, which is
soldered
along its full length, with a little blob (fillet) of solder on the
non-component
side. As M.T. indicated, the solder joint COULD pull internal board
layers
apart if you just 'pull' the old caps.

At least 50 caps replaced on PC boards with Zero problems. It's easy.

It's also easy to damage a board. A better solution is to heat up the
pad an poke a cold resistor lead, or some such, through the hole. This
will clear the solder without damaging the barrel.

Yes, or pull a clean length of stripped 26 gauge copper wire through it.