Color CCD sensor with support hardware wanted

N

Nautilus

Guest
Is there any Color CCD sensor (at least .5 inch square) available
that's suitable for the hobbyist budget? Hopefully with some back-end
support electronics so that I can get it to USB or 1394? Capture &
transfer speed is of no concern.

I see this Sony commercial camera with the kind of 'guts' I want:
http://www.sony.net/Products/ISP/products/interface/DFWSX.html
but yikes, it's the better part of $3000!

Thanks...
 
"Nautilus" <reply_in_newsgroup_thanks@example.com> wrote in message
news:4NmdnT_XA6EPxYncRVn-pw@comcast.com...
Is there any Color CCD sensor (at least .5 inch square) available
that's suitable for the hobbyist budget? Hopefully with some back-end
support electronics so that I can get it to USB or 1394? Capture &
transfer speed is of no concern.

I see this Sony commercial camera with the kind of 'guts' I want:
http://www.sony.net/Products/ISP/products/interface/DFWSX.html
but yikes, it's the better part of $3000!

Thanks...
The cheapest route, will be a standard digital camera. Something like the
Click to expand...
Canon 300D, since it supports removable lenses, will be the easiest to
connct to whatever you want. This sort of camera, sells often for less
than the bare CCD can be purchased in limited quantities, so will allways
undercut units like 'commercial' cameras, which are made for a small
market. The CCD you want is relatively large (CCD sizes are normally
quoted as the diagonal of the chip itself, so a 'half inch' CCD, will
typically only be about 9 * 7mm). For smaller CCD's, there are routes like
wiring a larger chip, onto a webcam board, but for a unit this large, thge
total cost of this, still runs to about as much as the Canon camera...

Best Wishes
 
On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 09:53:36 GMT, "Roger Hamlett"
<rogerspamignored@ttelmah.demon.co.uk> wrote:

"Nautilus" <reply_in_newsgroup_thanks@example.com> wrote in message
news:4NmdnT_XA6EPxYncRVn-pw@comcast.com...

Is there any Color CCD sensor (at least .5 inch square) available
that's suitable for the hobbyist budget? Hopefully with some back-end
support electronics so that I can get it to USB or 1394? Capture &
transfer speed is of no concern.

I see this Sony commercial camera with the kind of 'guts' I want:
http://www.sony.net/Products/ISP/products/interface/DFWSX.html
but yikes, it's the better part of $3000!

Thanks...
The cheapest route, will be a standard digital camera. Something like the
Canon 300D, since it supports removable lenses, will be the easiest to
connct to whatever you want. This sort of camera, sells often for less
than the bare CCD can be purchased in limited quantities, so will allways
undercut units like 'commercial' cameras, which are made for a small
market. The CCD you want is relatively large (CCD sizes are normally
quoted as the diagonal of the chip itself, so a 'half inch' CCD, will
typically only be about 9 * 7mm). For smaller CCD's, there are routes like
wiring a larger chip, onto a webcam board, but for a unit this large, thge
total cost of this, still runs to about as much as the Canon camera...

Best Wishes
Click to expand...
Thanks, but darn, that puts the kaibash on my plan. Still too pricey
and since that's a diagonal measurement, it'd still be a bit too
small. I was hoping to scan 16mm film frames in direct contact with
the sensor, but I'd probably need about 13mm (~1/2") wide sensor area.
Looks like I'll need to use optics, and I think my bro's MiniDV cam
has a higher-than-video-res still capture mode... that gives me
another idea to play with.
 
Nautilus wrote:
On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 09:53:36 GMT, "Roger Hamlett"
rogerspamignored@ttelmah.demon.co.uk> wrote:


"Nautilus" <reply_in_newsgroup_thanks@example.com> wrote in message
news:4NmdnT_XA6EPxYncRVn-pw@comcast.com...

Is there any Color CCD sensor (at least .5 inch square) available
that's suitable for the hobbyist budget? Hopefully with some
back-end support electronics so that I can get it to USB or 1394?
Capture & transfer speed is of no concern.

I see this Sony commercial camera with the kind of 'guts' I want:
http://www.sony.net/Products/ISP/products/interface/DFWSX.html
but yikes, it's the better part of $3000!

Thanks...
The cheapest route, will be a standard digital camera. Something
like the Canon 300D, since it supports removable lenses, will be the
easiest to connct to whatever you want. This sort of camera, sells
often for less than the bare CCD can be purchased in limited
quantities, so will allways undercut units like 'commercial'
cameras, which are made for a small market. The CCD you want is
relatively large (CCD sizes are normally quoted as the diagonal of
the chip itself, so a 'half inch' CCD, will typically only be about
9 * 7mm). For smaller CCD's, there are routes like wiring a larger
chip, onto a webcam board, but for a unit this large, thge total
cost of this, still runs to about as much as the Canon camera...

Best Wishes



Thanks, but darn, that puts the kaibash on my plan. Still too pricey
and since that's a diagonal measurement, it'd still be a bit too
small. I was hoping to scan 16mm film frames in direct contact with
the sensor, but I'd probably need about 13mm (~1/2") wide sensor area.
Looks like I'll need to use optics, and I think my bro's MiniDV cam
has a higher-than-video-res still capture mode... that gives me
another idea to play with.
Click to expand...
Even if a large CCD were affordable, direct contact is not the way
to do it. The cover slip on the CCD has a discrete thickness and
then the active surface has coloured dots on it for the RGB pixels.

You'll have to use optics but then a webcam has sufficient resolution
these days and also has a focusable lens. Its software will permit
the saving to disc of the files.


--
Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial
WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex
Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.
 
On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 04:02:15 +0100, "Graham W"
<graham@his.com.puter.INVALID> wrote:

Nautilus wrote:
On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 09:53:36 GMT, "Roger Hamlett"
rogerspamignored@ttelmah.demon.co.uk> wrote:


"Nautilus" <reply_in_newsgroup_thanks@example.com> wrote in message
news:4NmdnT_XA6EPxYncRVn-pw@comcast.com...

Is there any Color CCD sensor (at least .5 inch square) available
that's suitable for the hobbyist budget? Hopefully with some
back-end support electronics so that I can get it to USB or 1394?
Capture & transfer speed is of no concern.

I see this Sony commercial camera with the kind of 'guts' I want:
http://www.sony.net/Products/ISP/products/interface/DFWSX.html
but yikes, it's the better part of $3000!

Thanks...
The cheapest route, will be a standard digital camera. Something
like the Canon 300D, since it supports removable lenses, will be the
easiest to connct to whatever you want. This sort of camera, sells
often for less than the bare CCD can be purchased in limited
quantities, so will allways undercut units like 'commercial'
cameras, which are made for a small market. The CCD you want is
relatively large (CCD sizes are normally quoted as the diagonal of
the chip itself, so a 'half inch' CCD, will typically only be about
9 * 7mm). For smaller CCD's, there are routes like wiring a larger
chip, onto a webcam board, but for a unit this large, thge total
cost of this, still runs to about as much as the Canon camera...

Best Wishes



Thanks, but darn, that puts the kaibash on my plan. Still too pricey
and since that's a diagonal measurement, it'd still be a bit too
small. I was hoping to scan 16mm film frames in direct contact with
the sensor, but I'd probably need about 13mm (~1/2") wide sensor area.
Looks like I'll need to use optics, and I think my bro's MiniDV cam
has a higher-than-video-res still capture mode... that gives me
another idea to play with.

Even if a large CCD were affordable, direct contact is not the way
to do it. The cover slip on the CCD has a discrete thickness and
then the active surface has coloured dots on it for the RGB pixels.

You'll have to use optics but then a webcam has sufficient resolution
these days and also has a focusable lens. Its software will permit
the saving to disc of the files.
Click to expand...
About the discrete thickness I think you mean that the image has to be
focused on the sensor, behind the cover slip & colored dot layers. I
did wonder about that.

What particular webcam products do you think I should look at?
There's sooo many junk ones out there that google doesn't help.

I'll need additional optics, right? I don't expect the usual webcam
will focus on a 16mm backlit object at full frame. Is there an easy
solution here that I'm missing?

Thanks.
 
"Nautilus" <reply_in_newsgroup_thanks@example.com> wrote in message
news:YN-dnU_m9cZiDojcRVn-pQ@comcast.com...
On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 09:53:36 GMT, "Roger Hamlett"
rogerspamignored@ttelmah.demon.co.uk> wrote:


"Nautilus" <reply_in_newsgroup_thanks@example.com> wrote in message
news:4NmdnT_XA6EPxYncRVn-pw@comcast.com...

Is there any Color CCD sensor (at least .5 inch square) available
that's suitable for the hobbyist budget? Hopefully with some
back-end
support electronics so that I can get it to USB or 1394? Capture &
transfer speed is of no concern.

I see this Sony commercial camera with the kind of 'guts' I want:
http://www.sony.net/Products/ISP/products/interface/DFWSX.html
but yikes, it's the better part of $3000!

Thanks...
The cheapest route, will be a standard digital camera. Something like
the
Canon 300D, since it supports removable lenses, will be the easiest to
connct to whatever you want. This sort of camera, sells often for less
than the bare CCD can be purchased in limited quantities, so will
allways
undercut units like 'commercial' cameras, which are made for a small
market. The CCD you want is relatively large (CCD sizes are normally
quoted as the diagonal of the chip itself, so a 'half inch' CCD, will
typically only be about 9 * 7mm). For smaller CCD's, there are routes
like
wiring a larger chip, onto a webcam board, but for a unit this large,
thge
total cost of this, still runs to about as much as the Canon camera...

Best Wishes



Thanks, but darn, that puts the kaibash on my plan. Still too pricey
and since that's a diagonal measurement, it'd still be a bit too
small. I was hoping to scan 16mm film frames in direct contact with
the sensor, but I'd probably need about 13mm (~1/2") wide sensor area.
Looks like I'll need to use optics, and I think my bro's MiniDV cam
has a higher-than-video-res still capture mode... that gives me
another idea to play with.
The Canon, has a 1.25" sensor. It is plenty larger than your requirement.
Click to expand...
I was trying to 'warn', to beware of CCD size figures.
The problem is that pricing does get massive. As an example, a 0.5" sensor
'bare', typically costs about Ł400. A 1" sensor, will run to about Ł600,
and the Canon camera, is available by shopping around, for less than this,
especially if you re-sell the standard lens!. Industrial cameras using
this sort of size camera, run from about Ł2000 and up.

Best Wishes
 
"Nautilus" <reply_in_newsgroup_thanks@example.com> wrote in message
news:6eKdneT1Ku-UPojcRVn-tA@comcast.com...
On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 04:02:15 +0100, "Graham W"
graham@his.com.puter.INVALID> wrote:

Nautilus wrote:
On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 09:53:36 GMT, "Roger Hamlett"
rogerspamignored@ttelmah.demon.co.uk> wrote:


"Nautilus" <reply_in_newsgroup_thanks@example.com> wrote in message
news:4NmdnT_XA6EPxYncRVn-pw@comcast.com...

Is there any Color CCD sensor (at least .5 inch square) available
that's suitable for the hobbyist budget? Hopefully with some
back-end support electronics so that I can get it to USB or 1394?
Capture & transfer speed is of no concern.

I see this Sony commercial camera with the kind of 'guts' I want:
http://www.sony.net/Products/ISP/products/interface/DFWSX.html
but yikes, it's the better part of $3000!

Thanks...
The cheapest route, will be a standard digital camera. Something
like the Canon 300D, since it supports removable lenses, will be the
easiest to connct to whatever you want. This sort of camera, sells
often for less than the bare CCD can be purchased in limited
quantities, so will allways undercut units like 'commercial'
cameras, which are made for a small market. The CCD you want is
relatively large (CCD sizes are normally quoted as the diagonal of
the chip itself, so a 'half inch' CCD, will typically only be about
9 * 7mm). For smaller CCD's, there are routes like wiring a larger
chip, onto a webcam board, but for a unit this large, thge total
cost of this, still runs to about as much as the Canon camera...

Best Wishes



Thanks, but darn, that puts the kaibash on my plan. Still too pricey
and since that's a diagonal measurement, it'd still be a bit too
small. I was hoping to scan 16mm film frames in direct contact with
the sensor, but I'd probably need about 13mm (~1/2") wide sensor
area.
Looks like I'll need to use optics, and I think my bro's MiniDV cam
has a higher-than-video-res still capture mode... that gives me
another idea to play with.

Even if a large CCD were affordable, direct contact is not the way
to do it. The cover slip on the CCD has a discrete thickness and
then the active surface has coloured dots on it for the RGB pixels.

You'll have to use optics but then a webcam has sufficient resolution
these days and also has a focusable lens. Its software will permit
the saving to disc of the files.

About the discrete thickness I think you mean that the image has to be
focused on the sensor, behind the cover slip & colored dot layers. I
did wonder about that.
Click to expand...
Yes, indeed. Any image formed on a plane other than the active
surface of the CCD will not be in focus.

What particular webcam products do you think I should look at?
There's sooo many junk ones out there that google doesn't help.
Click to expand...
The Philips ToUCam Pro II is well regarded in astronomy circles.
It isn't the cheapest at around $100 but has a lot of support around
the 'net and in the QCUIAG group on Yahoo!


I'll need additional optics, right? I don't expect the usual webcam
will focus on a 16mm backlit object at full frame.
Click to expand...
No, the existing lens will focus down to extremely close and I have
no doubt that you'll be able to get acceptable images for TV use.
I have focused an image of a UK five pence piece (18mm dia)
full screen on a TV monitor using a tiny security camera and its
standard screw-thread lens . I shot a photo of the screen on my
Olympus C3000z which I could make available later if there's
some interest.

You may need to be careful that you don't over illuminate the chip.
but a layer or three of matt white plastic diffuser should do it.


Is there an easy
solution here that I'm missing?
Click to expand...
Webcam!

HTH
--
Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial
WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex
Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.
 
"Graham W" <graham@his.com.puter.INVALID> wrote in message
news:41160610$0$527$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
"Nautilus" <reply_in_newsgroup_thanks@example.com> wrote in message
news:6eKdneT1Ku-UPojcRVn-tA@comcast.com...
On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 04:02:15 +0100, "Graham W"
graham@his.com.puter.INVALID> wrote:

Nautilus wrote:
On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 09:53:36 GMT, "Roger Hamlett"
rogerspamignored@ttelmah.demon.co.uk> wrote:


"Nautilus" <reply_in_newsgroup_thanks@example.com> wrote in
message
news:4NmdnT_XA6EPxYncRVn-pw@comcast.com...

Is there any Color CCD sensor (at least .5 inch square) available
that's suitable for the hobbyist budget? Hopefully with some
back-end support electronics so that I can get it to USB or 1394?
Capture & transfer speed is of no concern.

I see this Sony commercial camera with the kind of 'guts' I want:
http://www.sony.net/Products/ISP/products/interface/DFWSX.html
but yikes, it's the better part of $3000!

Thanks...
The cheapest route, will be a standard digital camera. Something
like the Canon 300D, since it supports removable lenses, will be
the
easiest to connct to whatever you want. This sort of camera, sells
often for less than the bare CCD can be purchased in limited
quantities, so will allways undercut units like 'commercial'
cameras, which are made for a small market. The CCD you want is
relatively large (CCD sizes are normally quoted as the diagonal of
the chip itself, so a 'half inch' CCD, will typically only be
about
9 * 7mm). For smaller CCD's, there are routes like wiring a larger
chip, onto a webcam board, but for a unit this large, thge total
cost of this, still runs to about as much as the Canon camera...

Best Wishes



Thanks, but darn, that puts the kaibash on my plan. Still too
pricey
and since that's a diagonal measurement, it'd still be a bit too
small. I was hoping to scan 16mm film frames in direct contact
with
the sensor, but I'd probably need about 13mm (~1/2") wide sensor
area.
Looks like I'll need to use optics, and I think my bro's MiniDV cam
has a higher-than-video-res still capture mode... that gives me
another idea to play with.

Even if a large CCD were affordable, direct contact is not the way
to do it. The cover slip on the CCD has a discrete thickness and
then the active surface has coloured dots on it for the RGB pixels.

You'll have to use optics but then a webcam has sufficient resolution
these days and also has a focusable lens. Its software will permit
the saving to disc of the files.

About the discrete thickness I think you mean that the image has to be
focused on the sensor, behind the cover slip & colored dot layers. I
did wonder about that.

Yes, indeed. Any image formed on a plane other than the active
surface of the CCD will not be in focus.

What particular webcam products do you think I should look at?
There's sooo many junk ones out there that google doesn't help.

The Philips ToUCam Pro II is well regarded in astronomy circles.
It isn't the cheapest at around $100 but has a lot of support around
the 'net and in the QCUIAG group on Yahoo!


I'll need additional optics, right? I don't expect the usual webcam
will focus on a 16mm backlit object at full frame.

No, the existing lens will focus down to extremely close and I have
no doubt that you'll be able to get acceptable images for TV use.
I have focused an image of a UK five pence piece (18mm dia)
full screen on a TV monitor using a tiny security camera and its
standard screw-thread lens . I shot a photo of the screen on my
Olympus C3000z which I could make available later if there's
some interest.

You may need to be careful that you don't over illuminate the chip.
but a layer or three of matt white plastic diffuser should do it.


Is there an easy
solution here that I'm missing?

Webcam!
The largest chip that has been fitted to the Toucam, that I know of, is a
Click to expand...
0.5" unit (I have one here, that I did myself). Though the Toucam is not
the 'cheapest' camera, as a whole, it is probably the cheapest 'route',
and is a very small assembly too.
As has been pointed out, 'direct contact' won't work, so some optics will
have to be added. The cheapest route that I can think of to scan film,
with reasonable resolution, would be to use a much simpler 'line' scanner
assembly, and a moving holder, with a simple focussing system. This will
give much higher resolutions than the Toucam approach. However you then
have to realise that small USB film scanners are available for about Ł100,
with everything allready built...

Best Wishes
 
On Sun, 08 Aug 2004 16:23:17 GMT, "Roger Hamlett"
<rogerspamignored@ttelmah.demon.co.uk> wrote:

"Graham W" <graham@his.com.puter.INVALID> wrote in message
news:41160610$0$527$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...

"Nautilus" <reply_in_newsgroup_thanks@example.com> wrote in message
news:6eKdneT1Ku-UPojcRVn-tA@comcast.com...
On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 04:02:15 +0100, "Graham W"
graham@his.com.puter.INVALID> wrote:

Nautilus wrote:
On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 09:53:36 GMT, "Roger Hamlett"
rogerspamignored@ttelmah.demon.co.uk> wrote:


"Nautilus" <reply_in_newsgroup_thanks@example.com> wrote in
message
news:4NmdnT_XA6EPxYncRVn-pw@comcast.com...

Is there any Color CCD sensor (at least .5 inch square) available
that's suitable for the hobbyist budget? Hopefully with some
back-end support electronics so that I can get it to USB or 1394?
Capture & transfer speed is of no concern.

I see this Sony commercial camera with the kind of 'guts' I want:
http://www.sony.net/Products/ISP/products/interface/DFWSX.html
but yikes, it's the better part of $3000!

Thanks...
The cheapest route, will be a standard digital camera. Something
like the Canon 300D, since it supports removable lenses, will be
the
easiest to connct to whatever you want. This sort of camera, sells
often for less than the bare CCD can be purchased in limited
quantities, so will allways undercut units like 'commercial'
cameras, which are made for a small market. The CCD you want is
relatively large (CCD sizes are normally quoted as the diagonal of
the chip itself, so a 'half inch' CCD, will typically only be
about
9 * 7mm). For smaller CCD's, there are routes like wiring a larger
chip, onto a webcam board, but for a unit this large, thge total
cost of this, still runs to about as much as the Canon camera...

Best Wishes



Thanks, but darn, that puts the kaibash on my plan. Still too
pricey
and since that's a diagonal measurement, it'd still be a bit too
small. I was hoping to scan 16mm film frames in direct contact
with
the sensor, but I'd probably need about 13mm (~1/2") wide sensor
area.
Looks like I'll need to use optics, and I think my bro's MiniDV cam
has a higher-than-video-res still capture mode... that gives me
another idea to play with.

Even if a large CCD were affordable, direct contact is not the way
to do it. The cover slip on the CCD has a discrete thickness and
then the active surface has coloured dots on it for the RGB pixels.

You'll have to use optics but then a webcam has sufficient resolution
these days and also has a focusable lens. Its software will permit
the saving to disc of the files.

About the discrete thickness I think you mean that the image has to be
focused on the sensor, behind the cover slip & colored dot layers. I
did wonder about that.

Yes, indeed. Any image formed on a plane other than the active
surface of the CCD will not be in focus.

What particular webcam products do you think I should look at?
There's sooo many junk ones out there that google doesn't help.

The Philips ToUCam Pro II is well regarded in astronomy circles.
It isn't the cheapest at around $100 but has a lot of support around
the 'net and in the QCUIAG group on Yahoo!


I'll need additional optics, right? I don't expect the usual webcam
will focus on a 16mm backlit object at full frame.

No, the existing lens will focus down to extremely close and I have
no doubt that you'll be able to get acceptable images for TV use.
I have focused an image of a UK five pence piece (18mm dia)
full screen on a TV monitor using a tiny security camera and its
standard screw-thread lens . I shot a photo of the screen on my
Olympus C3000z which I could make available later if there's
some interest.

You may need to be careful that you don't over illuminate the chip.
but a layer or three of matt white plastic diffuser should do it.


Is there an easy
solution here that I'm missing?

Webcam!
The largest chip that has been fitted to the Toucam, that I know of, is a
0.5" unit (I have one here, that I did myself). Though the Toucam is not
the 'cheapest' camera, as a whole, it is probably the cheapest 'route',
and is a very small assembly too.
As has been pointed out, 'direct contact' won't work, so some optics will
have to be added. The cheapest route that I can think of to scan film,
with reasonable resolution, would be to use a much simpler 'line' scanner
assembly, and a moving holder, with a simple focussing system. This will
give much higher resolutions than the Toucam approach. However you then
have to realise that small USB film scanners are available for about Ł100,
with everything allready built...

Best Wishes
Click to expand...
Ah, it sounds like the Toucam just may fit the bill! Thanks for the
recommendations on that guys.

Yea, I know about the linear scanner approach, I worked on something
like that at a company in the 80s to scan 35mm film ... we had a
stepper motor hooked up to a micrometer to move the unit.

About available film scanners though, all the (affordable) ones I've
found just take a short strip of film, while I have reels and reels of
it and I'm not going to cut it up.
 
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