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D
Don Y
Guest
On 5/4/2025 8:48 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
What constitutes \"soon enough to matter\"? To who? What?
It took a long time to dig this hole, why would you think
it would be easy/quick/inexpensive to FILL it?
We somehow managed to live with a ban on CFCs (ozone hole). And,
emission controls on automobiles (smog, acid rain, etc.)
One just has to decide there is value in \"fixing\" these (man-made)
problems.
Heed Genesis 2:15, christians!
For some time, I\'ve been following the debate on Climate Change and
the back and forth on the practicality of removing enough carbon
dioxide (CO2) from the atmosphere, soon enough to matter.
What constitutes \"soon enough to matter\"? To who? What?
It took a long time to dig this hole, why would you think
it would be easy/quick/inexpensive to FILL it?
We somehow managed to live with a ban on CFCs (ozone hole). And,
emission controls on automobiles (smog, acid rain, etc.)
One just has to decide there is value in \"fixing\" these (man-made)
problems.
Heed Genesis 2:15, christians!
D
Don Y
Guest
On 5/5/2025 9:15 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
Nor how robustly it can defend against active interference, eavesdropping
or other acts of malevolence.
I spooked my neighbor by showing him how easily I could interfere
with his wireless \"intrusion alarm\" (obviously wireless to reduce
the cost of wiring!). Do vendors think that adversaries are
all naive? How long does it take to financially impact a
client relying on such technology?
I\'m still waiting for the hack that turns everyone\'s thermostat
up/down, activates ovens, etc.
Looks like it\'s designed not to require TCP/IP or other protocol networking.
Not all locations have easy access to wifi or wired networks.
But it says nothing about the security of the data going over 433 MHz.
Nor how robustly it can defend against active interference, eavesdropping
or other acts of malevolence.
I spooked my neighbor by showing him how easily I could interfere
with his wireless \"intrusion alarm\" (obviously wireless to reduce
the cost of wiring!). Do vendors think that adversaries are
all naive? How long does it take to financially impact a
client relying on such technology?
It\'s nice to see a device which doesn\'t assume you\'ll put it on wifi
and doesn\'t assume it can contact the manufacturer\'s servers to
report who knows what or try to make you pay a subscription for full function.
I\'m still waiting for the hack that turns everyone\'s thermostat
up/down, activates ovens, etc.
J
john larkin
Guest
On Mon, 5 May 2025 20:06:25 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
wrote:
There are still a billion dirt-poor people in the world, without
electricity and food insecure. They need energy, transport, and food,
all generating or using CO2.
Long-term, prosperous people reduce their birth rates. I expect that
in a few hundred years Earth will have maybe 2 billion healthy,
literate, peaceful people and CO2 will be around 600 PPM, ideal for
trees and crops.
wrote:
On 5/4/2025 8:48 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
For some time, I\'ve been following the debate on Climate Change and
the back and forth on the practicality of removing enough carbon
dioxide (CO2) from the atmosphere, soon enough to matter.
What constitutes \"soon enough to matter\"? To who? What?
It took a long time to dig this hole, why would you think
it would be easy/quick/inexpensive to FILL it?
We somehow managed to live with a ban on CFCs (ozone hole). And,
emission controls on automobiles (smog, acid rain, etc.)
One just has to decide there is value in \"fixing\" these (man-made)
problems.
Heed Genesis 2:15, christians!
There are still a billion dirt-poor people in the world, without
electricity and food insecure. They need energy, transport, and food,
all generating or using CO2.
Long-term, prosperous people reduce their birth rates. I expect that
in a few hundred years Earth will have maybe 2 billion healthy,
literate, peaceful people and CO2 will be around 600 PPM, ideal for
trees and crops.
J
Jeroen Belleman
Guest
On 5/6/25 18:47, john larkin wrote:
If only, but I don\'t believe we\'ll get there. People are far too
bellicose.
Jeroen Belleman
On Mon, 5 May 2025 20:06:25 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
wrote:
On 5/4/2025 8:48 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
For some time, I\'ve been following the debate on Climate Change and
the back and forth on the practicality of removing enough carbon
dioxide (CO2) from the atmosphere, soon enough to matter.
What constitutes \"soon enough to matter\"? To who? What?
It took a long time to dig this hole, why would you think
it would be easy/quick/inexpensive to FILL it?
We somehow managed to live with a ban on CFCs (ozone hole). And,
emission controls on automobiles (smog, acid rain, etc.)
One just has to decide there is value in \"fixing\" these (man-made)
problems.
Heed Genesis 2:15, christians!
There are still a billion dirt-poor people in the world, without
electricity and food insecure. They need energy, transport, and food,
all generating or using CO2.
Long-term, prosperous people reduce their birth rates. I expect that
in a few hundred years Earth will have maybe 2 billion healthy,
literate, peaceful people and CO2 will be around 600 PPM, ideal for
trees and crops.
If only, but I don\'t believe we\'ll get there. People are far too
bellicose.
Jeroen Belleman
J
john larkin
Guest
On Tue, 6 May 2025 20:38:17 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
We have come an enormous way in the last 1000 years, and in the last
300. I expect continued progress.
Races and languages, the basis of tribal warfare, are gradually
merging. Around here every human critter that you can imagine seems to
be friends and lovers and parents with every other. That has to
continue.
Dolores Park, on a rare day when it\'s not cold and foggy:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/79aw3rqkizj0gxegc5cnk/Dolores_Park_May_2025.jpg?rlkey=yb4eu2d3e67vwuekla73ds9bf&raw=1
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 5/6/25 18:47, john larkin wrote:
On Mon, 5 May 2025 20:06:25 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
wrote:
On 5/4/2025 8:48 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
For some time, I\'ve been following the debate on Climate Change and
the back and forth on the practicality of removing enough carbon
dioxide (CO2) from the atmosphere, soon enough to matter.
What constitutes \"soon enough to matter\"? To who? What?
It took a long time to dig this hole, why would you think
it would be easy/quick/inexpensive to FILL it?
We somehow managed to live with a ban on CFCs (ozone hole). And,
emission controls on automobiles (smog, acid rain, etc.)
One just has to decide there is value in \"fixing\" these (man-made)
problems.
Heed Genesis 2:15, christians!
There are still a billion dirt-poor people in the world, without
electricity and food insecure. They need energy, transport, and food,
all generating or using CO2.
Long-term, prosperous people reduce their birth rates. I expect that
in a few hundred years Earth will have maybe 2 billion healthy,
literate, peaceful people and CO2 will be around 600 PPM, ideal for
trees and crops.
If only, but I don\'t believe we\'ll get there. People are far too
bellicose.
Jeroen Belleman
We have come an enormous way in the last 1000 years, and in the last
300. I expect continued progress.
Races and languages, the basis of tribal warfare, are gradually
merging. Around here every human critter that you can imagine seems to
be friends and lovers and parents with every other. That has to
continue.
Dolores Park, on a rare day when it\'s not cold and foggy:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/79aw3rqkizj0gxegc5cnk/Dolores_Park_May_2025.jpg?rlkey=yb4eu2d3e67vwuekla73ds9bf&raw=1
J
Jeroen Belleman
Guest
On 5/6/25 21:09, john larkin wrote:
Religious and political convictions rather seem to diverge increasingly.
The chasm between the richest and poorest grows ever wider. We\'re far
from living in harmony. I don\'t expect we ever will.
Jeroen Belleman
On Tue, 6 May 2025 20:38:17 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 5/6/25 18:47, john larkin wrote:
On Mon, 5 May 2025 20:06:25 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
wrote:
On 5/4/2025 8:48 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
For some time, I\'ve been following the debate on Climate Change and
the back and forth on the practicality of removing enough carbon
dioxide (CO2) from the atmosphere, soon enough to matter.
What constitutes \"soon enough to matter\"? To who? What?
It took a long time to dig this hole, why would you think
it would be easy/quick/inexpensive to FILL it?
We somehow managed to live with a ban on CFCs (ozone hole). And,
emission controls on automobiles (smog, acid rain, etc.)
One just has to decide there is value in \"fixing\" these (man-made)
problems.
Heed Genesis 2:15, christians!
There are still a billion dirt-poor people in the world, without
electricity and food insecure. They need energy, transport, and food,
all generating or using CO2.
Long-term, prosperous people reduce their birth rates. I expect that
in a few hundred years Earth will have maybe 2 billion healthy,
literate, peaceful people and CO2 will be around 600 PPM, ideal for
trees and crops.
If only, but I don\'t believe we\'ll get there. People are far too
bellicose.
Jeroen Belleman
We have come an enormous way in the last 1000 years, and in the last
300. I expect continued progress.
Races and languages, the basis of tribal warfare, are gradually
merging. Around here every human critter that you can imagine seems to
be friends and lovers and parents with every other. That has to
continue.
Religious and political convictions rather seem to diverge increasingly.
The chasm between the richest and poorest grows ever wider. We\'re far
from living in harmony. I don\'t expect we ever will.
Jeroen Belleman
J
john larkin
Guest
On Tue, 6 May 2025 21:14:35 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
But the fraction of the population that is super-poor keeps declining.
Having some rich people around is OK. Having super-poor ones isn\'t.
Most rich people have their wealth in stock shares, just bits on a
drive somewhere. A billionaire doesn\'t eat a million times as much as
the average person.
Things keep getting better.
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 5/6/25 21:09, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 6 May 2025 20:38:17 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 5/6/25 18:47, john larkin wrote:
On Mon, 5 May 2025 20:06:25 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
wrote:
On 5/4/2025 8:48 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
For some time, I\'ve been following the debate on Climate Change and
the back and forth on the practicality of removing enough carbon
dioxide (CO2) from the atmosphere, soon enough to matter.
What constitutes \"soon enough to matter\"? To who? What?
It took a long time to dig this hole, why would you think
it would be easy/quick/inexpensive to FILL it?
We somehow managed to live with a ban on CFCs (ozone hole). And,
emission controls on automobiles (smog, acid rain, etc.)
One just has to decide there is value in \"fixing\" these (man-made)
problems.
Heed Genesis 2:15, christians!
There are still a billion dirt-poor people in the world, without
electricity and food insecure. They need energy, transport, and food,
all generating or using CO2.
Long-term, prosperous people reduce their birth rates. I expect that
in a few hundred years Earth will have maybe 2 billion healthy,
literate, peaceful people and CO2 will be around 600 PPM, ideal for
trees and crops.
If only, but I don\'t believe we\'ll get there. People are far too
bellicose.
Jeroen Belleman
We have come an enormous way in the last 1000 years, and in the last
300. I expect continued progress.
Races and languages, the basis of tribal warfare, are gradually
merging. Around here every human critter that you can imagine seems to
be friends and lovers and parents with every other. That has to
continue.
Religious and political convictions rather seem to diverge increasingly.
The chasm between the richest and poorest grows ever wider.
But the fraction of the population that is super-poor keeps declining.
Having some rich people around is OK. Having super-poor ones isn\'t.
Most rich people have their wealth in stock shares, just bits on a
drive somewhere. A billionaire doesn\'t eat a million times as much as
the average person.
We\'re far
from living in harmony. I don\'t expect we ever will.
Things keep getting better.
Jeroen Belleman
J
john larkin
Guest
On Wed, 7 May 2025 10:10:17 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Bicycles need paved roads to be efficient. And farmers won\'t take tons
of fertilizer or kilotons of water to the farm on bicycles, or tons of
rice to market on bicycles.
People who live way up the food chain imagine all sorts of crazy
things. They should spend a year working on a farm.
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
[...]
an e-bike doesn\'t
generate any CO2.
I am surprised that someone with your intelligence and knowledge should
repeat such a fallacy.
Manufacture of vehicle
Manufacture of batteries
Consumables (tyres, battery etc.)
Electricity generations (and the cost of making and maintaining the
plant)
Road making and maintenance (tarmac refining, transport & installation;
road \'wetal\'; concrete; street furniture; lighting )
Disposal
Bicycles need paved roads to be efficient. And farmers won\'t take tons
of fertilizer or kilotons of water to the farm on bicycles, or tons of
rice to market on bicycles.
People who live way up the food chain imagine all sorts of crazy
things. They should spend a year working on a farm.
B
Bill Sloman
Guest
On 8/05/2025 10:33 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
It isn\'t. An e-bike charged with electricity generated by a renewable
source won\'t generate any CO2, and in the situation I was talking about
it clearly wouldn\'t have.
You want lump in it\'s manufacture, and the construction of the road or
bike path it runs on, which is a stretch
No, an e-bike charged by wind turbines and solar panels isn\'t going to
generate any CO2 emissions while it is being used move people - and the
contents of their bike bags - around.
If you want a pedantically correct claim - that\'s it. You\'ve invented a
different claim, which you want to pass off as the one I made.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 5/7/2025 2:10 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
I am surprised that someone with your intelligence and knowledge should
repeat such a fallacy.
Manufacture of vehicle
Manufacture of batteries
Consumables (tyres, battery etc.)
Electricity generations (and the cost of making and maintaining the
plant)
Road making and maintenance (tarmac refining, transport & installation;
road \'wetal\'; concrete; street furniture; lighting )
Disposal
But most of those things are present -- in greater quantities -- in
any sort of mechanized transportation.
Bill Sloman\'s original claim was: \"... an e-bike doesn\'t generate any
CO2.\", which is patently untrue.
It isn\'t. An e-bike charged with electricity generated by a renewable
source won\'t generate any CO2, and in the situation I was talking about
it clearly wouldn\'t have.
You want lump in it\'s manufacture, and the construction of the road or
bike path it runs on, which is a stretch
Had he said : \" ...an e-bike doesn\'t
generate any more CO2 than other comparable modes of transport, that
would have been nearer the truth.
No, an e-bike charged by wind turbines and solar panels isn\'t going to
generate any CO2 emissions while it is being used move people - and the
contents of their bike bags - around.
If you want a pedantically correct claim - that\'s it. You\'ve invented a
different claim, which you want to pass off as the one I made.
--
Bill Sloman, Sydney