Cleaning keyboards & mice & phonesa with alchol...

[YK]

I googled and found that alcohol is a non conductor.
https://socratic.org/questions/can-a-rubbing-alcohol-conduct-electric-current

But why?
Why is rubbing alcohol not conductive?

The articles said nothing is completely non conductive but using rubbing
alcohol while things are energized has never caused problems because the
conductivity is super low).

But why?
It has electrons.

Electrons are current.
Why can you use electronics like keyboards while cleaning them with sprays?

 

[Mike Coon]

In article <svc67o$4a6$1@gioia.aioe.org>, youkidding@yahoo.com says...

I googled and found that alcohol is a non conductor.
https://socratic.org/questions/can-a-rubbing-alcohol-conduct-electric-current

But why?
Why is rubbing alcohol not conductive?

The articles said nothing is completely non conductive but using rubbing
alcohol while things are energized has never caused problems because the
conductivity is super low).

But why?
It has electrons.

Electrons are current.
Why can you use electronics like keyboards while cleaning them with sprays?

If we did not have conductors and insulators we would not have
electronics! Mobile electrons are current; most are not.

 

[Wolfgang Allinger]

On 26 Feb 22 at group /sci/electronics/repair in article svc67o$4a6$1@gioia.aioe.org
<youkidding@yahoo.com> (YK) wrote:

I googled and found that alcohol is a non conductor.
https://socratic.org/questions/can-a-rubbing-alcohol-conduct-electric-curren
t

But why?
Why is rubbing alcohol not conductive?

The articles said nothing is completely non conductive but using rubbing
alcohol while things are energized has never caused problems because the
conductivity is super low).

But why?
It has electrons.

Electrons are current.
Why can you use electronics like keyboards while cleaning them with sprays?

Everything (except Plasma) has electrons. Conductors, Semiconductor and
non-conductores. The conductivity depends on the kind of atomar/molekular
\'construction\'. See ceramics vs. metal



Saludos (an alle Vernünftigen, Rest sh. sig)
Wolfgang

--
Ich bin in Paraguay lebender Trollallergiker reply Adresse gesetzt!
Ich diskutiere zukünftig weniger mit Idioten, denn sie ziehen mich auf
ihr Niveau herunter und schlagen mich dort mit ihrer Erfahrung!
(lt. alter usenet Weisheit) iPod, iPhone, iPad, iTunes, iRak, iDiot

 

[Mike S]

On 2/26/2022 2:02 AM, Mike Coon wrote:

In article <svc67o$4a6$1@gioia.aioe.org>, youkidding@yahoo.com says...

I googled and found that alcohol is a non conductor.
https://socratic.org/questions/can-a-rubbing-alcohol-conduct-electric-current

But why?
Why is rubbing alcohol not conductive?

The articles said nothing is completely non conductive but using rubbing
alcohol while things are energized has never caused problems because the
conductivity is super low).

But why?
It has electrons.

Electrons are current.
Why can you use electronics like keyboards while cleaning them with sprays?

If we did not have conductors and insulators we would not have
electronics! Mobile electrons are current; most are not.

Well said. To further illustrate what you said, this might be helpful to
the OP, it takes things a small step further.
https://actingcolleges.org/library/acting-questions/read/39041-is-isopropyl-alcohol-electrically-conductive

 

[YK]

On 2/26/2022 2:44 AM, Mike S wrote:

To further illustrate what you said, this might be helpful to
the OP, it takes things a small step further.
https://actingcolleges.org/library/acting-questions/read/39041-is-isopropyl-alcohol-electrically-conductive

Thanks for that link which had at the bottom this question.

\"Can a rubbing alcohol conduct an electric current?
The conductivity of isopropyl alcohol (which is commonly the major component
of rubbing alcohol) is typically 6 uS.m−1, so it is very low (typical value
for a metal would be multiple millions of S.m−1). So the answer is: yes, but
it just does it to an EXTREMELY small extent, so small that most people
would regard it as non-conductive.\"

But that\'s pure alcohol.

I had also forgotten that there 30% water by volume in rubbing alcohol:
alcohol = 62.4% (w/w) or 70.0% (v/v)
https://www.thoughtco.com/calculate-volume-percent-concentration-609534
https://www.bode-science-center.com/center/hand-hygiene/hand-disinfection/detail-hand-disinfection/article/ethanol-concentration-table-what-is-the-percentage-by-volume-or-weight.html

Normal water is known to be conductive when not pure, but I can\'t find out
if they put distilled water into rubbing alcohol or \"regular\" salty water.

It says the alcohol is not ionic, so, it\'s of low (essentially no)
conductivity (as it\'s covalent so the electrons aren\'t all that free to
move).

So neither the water (if distilled) nor the alcohol will be very much
conductive, which is why it\'s used to clean electronics, it says. Plus it
says that it doesn\'t dry as quickly as some (and faster than others), so
it\'s in an ideal range for cleaning sticky keyboards while in use (which is
what I was using it for at the time I posed the question to you).

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 22:19:14 -0500, YK <youkidding@yahoo.com> wrote:

I googled and found that alcohol is a non conductor.
https://socratic.org/questions/can-a-rubbing-alcohol-conduct-electric-current

But why?
Why is rubbing alcohol not conductive?

Because the molecular structure of alcohol (C2H5OH) does not have any
free or loosely bound electrons or holes where free electrons
previously lived to conduct electrons. This covers the basics:
\"Conductors, Insulators, and Electron Flow\"
<https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-1/conductors-insulators-electron-flow/>

The articles said nothing is completely non conductive but using rubbing
alcohol while things are energized has never caused problems because the
conductivity is super low).

Absolutes don\'t work well in practical situations. While 99.99999%
pure alcohol might not conduct any measurable electricity, a few
percentage points less will likely have sufficient impurities to
conduce a tiny amount of electricity. The difference between
conductive and non-conductive depend on where you round off the
measurements.

But why?
It has electrons.

In order to conduct, it has to have free or unbound electrons. Alcohol
doesn\'t have any.

>Electrons are current.

Nope. Electrons are energy carriers. See the allaboutcircuits.com
article above.

>Why can you use electronics like keyboards while cleaning them with sprays?

I once did that with a CRT display and an alcohol spray bottle. It
wasn\'t much of a flash/bang, but sufficient to get my attention. Also,
alcohol tends to smear the silk screened lettering from the key caps.
If you\'re using alcohol to remove flux with a brush, the metal ring or
handle can easily short something on the keyboard PCB. Alcohol might
not be conductive, but the crud the collects on the PCB, dissolved in
alcohol, might be conductive. Lastly, pushing the keys while the
computah is in operation is like the cat sleeping on the keyboards.
Eventually, the wrong key gets pressed and your data or settings are
trashed:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=cat+on+keyboard&tbm=isch>


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Mike Coon]

In article <Foclne7zQoB@allinger-307049.user.uni-berlin>, all2001
@spambog.com says...

On 26 Feb 22 at group /sci/electronics/repair in article svc67o$4a6$1@gioia.aioe.org
youkidding@yahoo.com> (YK) wrote:

I googled and found that alcohol is a non conductor.
https://socratic.org/questions/can-a-rubbing-alcohol-conduct-electric-curren
t

But why?
Why is rubbing alcohol not conductive?

The articles said nothing is completely non conductive but using rubbing
alcohol while things are energized has never caused problems because the
conductivity is super low).

But why?
It has electrons.

Electrons are current.
Why can you use electronics like keyboards while cleaning them with sprays?

Everything (except Plasma) has electrons. Conductors, Semiconductor and
non-conductores. The conductivity depends on the kind of atomar/molekular
\'construction\'. See ceramics vs. metal

Do you have a reference to that startling assertion that plasmas have no
electrons?

 

[Wolfgang Allinger]

On 27 Feb 22 at group /sci/electronics/repair in article MPG.3c855c2cd17af0139896a2@usenet.plus.net
<gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> (Mike Coon) wrote:

In article <Foclne7zQoB@allinger-307049.user.uni-berlin>, all2001
@spambog.com says...

Everything (except Plasma) has electrons. Conductors, Semiconductor and
non-conductores. The conductivity depends on the kind of atomar/molekular
\'construction\'. See ceramics vs. metal

Do you have a reference to that startling assertion that plasmas have no
electrons?

Sorry, I\'m wrong. I\'ve looked only to the ultrahot cernels loosing their
electron cloud. But the electrons didn\'t disappear. So I withdraw my wrong
1st sentece.

Thanks for correcting me.



Saludos (an alle Vernünftigen, Rest sh. sig)
Wolfgang

--
Ich bin in Paraguay lebender Trollallergiker reply Adresse gesetzt!
Ich diskutiere zukünftig weniger mit Idioten, denn sie ziehen mich auf
ihr Niveau herunter und schlagen mich dort mit ihrer Erfahrung!
(lt. alter usenet Weisheit) iPod, iPhone, iPad, iTunes, iRak, iDiot

 

[Phil Allison]

Wolfgang Allinger wrote:
----------------------------------------

Everything (except Plasma) has electrons. Conductors, Semiconductor and
non-conductores. The conductivity depends on the kind of atomar/molekular
\'construction\'. See ceramics vs. metal

Even ceramics can become good conductors when heated to a red glow.

Bakelite, as used for tube bases, can become alarmingly conductive at about 200C.

....... Phil

 

[Peter W.]

> Bakelite, as used for tube bases, can become alarmingly conductive at about 200C.

https://www.restaurantnorman.com/is-bakelite-highly-inflammable/

Support for your statement?

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[YK]

On 2/27/2022 7:33 AM, Wolfgang Allinger wrote:

Do you have a reference to that startling assertion that plasmas have no
electrons?

Sorry, I\'m wrong. I\'ve looked only to the ultrahot cernels loosing their
electron cloud. But the electrons didn\'t disappear. So I withdraw my wrong
1st sentece.

I thought plasmas were ONLY electrons.

 

[YK]

On 2/26/2022 8:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

In order to conduct, it has to have free or unbound electrons. Alcohol
doesn\'t have any.

That must be why my keyboard can be cleaned while I am using it.
I pull off a key and spray alcohol/water 70/30 solution until it is soaked.
Then I put the key back on & continue using it which loosens up the sticky
grime.
All the while I\'m connected thanks to alcohol not conducting (much) current.

 

[Mike Coon]

In article <sviovi$1mgo$1@gioia.aioe.org>, youkidding@yahoo.com says...

On 2/27/2022 7:33 AM, Wolfgang Allinger wrote:
Do you have a reference to that startling assertion that plasmas have no
electrons?

Sorry, I\'m wrong. I\'ve looked only to the ultrahot cernels loosing their
electron cloud. But the electrons didn\'t disappear. So I withdraw my wrong
1st sentece.

I thought plasmas were ONLY electrons.

From Wikipedia: \"Plasma is one of the four fundamental states of matter.
It contains a significant portion of charged particles ? ions and/or
electrons.\"

I don\'t think the space-charge of electrons as given off from the hot
cathode of vacuum tubes would count as a plasma, but the glowing neon in
an old indicator bulb would.

 

[Phil Allison]

Phil Allison wrote:
===============

\'construction\'. See ceramics vs. metal

Even ceramics can become good conductors when heated to a red glow.

** See :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBnICnUhTZI

Pure glass conducts like a metal when glowing hot - about 800 to 1000C


> Bakelite, as used for tube bases, can become alarmingly conductive at about 200C.

** FYI \" alarmingly\" = tube bias runs away.

Only takes about 20Mohms of leakage.
Octal power tubes have screen and grid pins adjacent.


...... Phil

 

[Tim R]

On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 8:39:35 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 22:19:14 -0500, YK <youki...@yahoo.com> wrote:

But why?
It has electrons.
In order to conduct, it has to have free or unbound electrons. Alcohol
doesn\'t have any.

Electrons are current.

Nope. Electrons are energy carriers. See the allaboutcircuits.com
article above.

Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

That\'s a good article and answers the question well.

One thing it doesn\'t really address is that the charge carriers need not be electrons, and in an alcohol solution there may be other charge carriers available.

 

[Peter W.]

> One thing it doesn\'t really address is that the charge carriers need not be electrons, and in an alcohol solution there may be other charge carriers available.

\"May\" is a bit of a weasel-word. Pure alcohol has no unbound electrons, and no potential for ionization. Admixtures, dilutants and contaminants are an entirely different issue, and shame on the user to not account for this in their choice of solvents and/or cleaners.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Tim R]

On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 1:00:58 PM UTC-5, Peter W. wrote:

One thing it doesn\'t really address is that the charge carriers need not be electrons, and in an alcohol solution there may be other charge carriers available.
\"May\" is a bit of a weasel-word. Pure alcohol has no unbound electrons, and no potential for ionization. Admixtures, dilutants and contaminants are an entirely different issue, and shame on the user to not account for this in their choice of solvents and/or cleaners.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Exactly. As soon as the alcohol has dissolved something - and how would it clean if it did not? then it very likely contains something that has ionized. There not need be any free electrons as long as the ions can move.

And if there\'s nothing to dissolve, then why clean at all? Just blow it out with some canned air.

 

[Phil Allison]

timoth...@gmail.com wrote:

=========================

Exactly. As soon as the alcohol has dissolved something - and how would it clean if it did not?
then it very likely contains something that has ionized.
There not need be any free electrons as long as the ions can move.

** Anything handled by human hands is likely to have oil, acid and salt on it.
( Notice how finger prints corrode some metal surfaces )
Salt and acid will make the solution slightly conductive, long as it contains some water.

FYI one of the worst common spillages onto electronics is orange juice.
Yoghurt comes close too.


... Phil

 

[Mike Coon]

In article <b7823815-bd04-441f-a322-9a2b391ca6cen@googlegroups.com>,
pallison49@gmail.com says...

timoth...@gmail.com wrote:

=========================

Exactly. As soon as the alcohol has dissolved something - and how would it clean if it did not?
then it very likely contains something that has ionized.
There not need be any free electrons as long as the ions can move.


** Anything handled by human hands is likely to have oil, acid and salt on it.
( Notice how finger prints corrode some metal surfaces )
Salt and acid will make the solution slightly conductive, long as it contains some water.

FYI one of the worst common spillages onto electronics is orange juice.
Yoghurt comes close too.


... Phil

Perhaps why electricity is called \"juice\"? ;-)

 

[Tim R]

On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 10:19:26 PM UTC-5, YK wrote:

Why is rubbing alcohol not conductive?

It has electrons.

Electrons are current.

I\'m not an electrical engineer but I don\'t think that\'s complete. Other things can be current besides electrons, and in liquids wouldn\'t the current be from other than electrons?

Water conducts very slightly, because a small amount of molecules are dissociated into H+ and OH-. These would travel through the fluid to the electrodes. I would imagine a small amount of isopropyl alcohol dissociates into C3H7+ and OH- also.

The EEs I knew talked about holes carrying current, I never really grasped that but didn\'t need to.