Clamp meters: Peak vs. In-rush?

[notme]

Fluke clamp current meters have 2 features that seem similar: peak and
in-rush. The older models have Max (some: Peak). The recent advent in Fluke
clamps is "In-rush".

How do these differ? Isn't in-rush current the short, max current at
motor-turn on? Shouldn't meters with a Max feature capture this accurately?

Compare, for example, my old Fluke 36 (Max):

<http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/36______iseng0000.pdf>

and the 334 (In-Rush):

<http://us.fluke.com/VirtualDemos/330shock.asp>

(click "Explore" then "Selection Guide").

How do Max & In-rush differ? Only in the marketing department?
Or is there a real-world difference?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[notme]

I found this description on the Fluke 33x virtual demo page:

"Note: In-rush current measurements done with a 330 Series Clamp Meter will
differ from Min/MAX, Peak, or Peak-Hold measurements which are not triggered
events."

Sounds like other than auto-triggering, the results are the same.

Dave

 

[Salmon Egg]

In article
<0001HW.C71FB1C00028C68CB08A39AF@news.eternal-september.org>,
notme <notme@notme.org> wrote:

Fluke clamp current meters have 2 features that seem similar: peak and
in-rush. The older models have Max (some: Peak). The recent advent in Fluke
clamps is "In-rush".

How do these differ? Isn't in-rush current the short, max current at
motor-turn on? Shouldn't meters with a Max feature capture this accurately?

Compare, for example, my old Fluke 36 (Max):

http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/36______iseng0000.pdf

and the 334 (In-Rush):

http://us.fluke.com/VirtualDemos/330shock.asp

(click "Explore" then "Selection Guide").

How do Max & In-rush differ? Only in the marketing department?
Or is there a real-world difference?

Thanks,
Dave

The essence of one of these meters is a current transformer using a core
that can be opened and then closed. In the closed condition, the
magnetic reluctance of the core is made as small as possible. The
secondary coil is connected to a small resistance. The idea is to have
the current flow waveform in the secondary duplicate the current flow in
the often single turn primary. The voltage on the resistor than
duplicates the current waveform.

How this secondary waveform is used and processed will determine the
features of the meter. Fluke is one of the big names in hand held
oscilloscopes. It is possible to digitize the start of this waveform.
Then various algorithms can be used to characterize the waveform
including the start of it.

Bill

--
As the years go by, dying just before having to fill out a tax return has merit.

 

[PeterD]

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 00:18:20 -0800, notme <notme@notme.org> wrote:

I found this description on the Fluke 33x virtual demo page:

"Note: In-rush current measurements done with a 330 Series Clamp Meter will
differ from Min/MAX, Peak, or Peak-Hold measurements which are not triggered
events."

Sounds like other than auto-triggering, the results are the same.

Dave

Like this?

Apply power, inrush current is 10A for .2 seconds.
Current drops to 1.2A for 2 seconds.
Current rises to 12.5A for 1 second.
Current drops to 1.2A until termination.

So the Inrush reading would be 10A, and the Max reading would be
12.5A. I can see some usefulness for this, since a max only meter
would falsly read 12.5A which the user might attribute to the inrush
current, instead of the event at 2 seconds.

 

[Shaun]

"notme" <notme@notme.org> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C71FB1C00028C68CB08A39AF@news.eternal-september.org...

Fluke clamp current meters have 2 features that seem similar: peak and
in-rush. The older models have Max (some: Peak). The recent advent in
Fluke
clamps is "In-rush".

How do these differ? Isn't in-rush current the short, max current at
motor-turn on? Shouldn't meters with a Max feature capture this
accurately?

Compare, for example, my old Fluke 36 (Max):

http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/36______iseng0000.pdf

and the 334 (In-Rush):

http://us.fluke.com/VirtualDemos/330shock.asp

(click "Explore" then "Selection Guide").

How do Max & In-rush differ? Only in the marketing department?
Or is there a real-world difference?

Thanks,
Dave

In the usual Max measurement, the input (current) is sampled and the maximum
sample is displayed, but the true maximum could have occurred between the
samples and in that case you miss the true maximum or inrush current that
your looking for. In inrush current measurements first off it's a triggered
measurement and measures for a very short period of time and it doesn't
depend on samples, I think it's an analog approach.

Shaun

 

[notme]

In the usual Max measurement, the input (current) is sampled and the maximum
sample is displayed, but the true maximum could have occurred between the
samples and in that case you miss the true maximum or inrush current that
your looking for. In inrush current measurements first off it's a triggered
measurement and measures for a very short period of time and it doesn't
depend on samples, I think it's an analog approach.

Shaun

After a short phone conversation with a tech support person at Fluke, I think
I understand the difference: it's the acquisition speed. (The new clamps also
have triggered event feature, but that's icing on the cake.)

In the clamp meters in Fluke's present product lineup that have the "In-rush"
feature, the acquisition speed is listed as 100 mS. In the older clamp meters
(eg. my model 36) that have the "Max" feature, the acquisition speed is
listed as 250 mS.

In other words, old (model 36) meters sample 4 times a second. New (model
33x) meters sample 10 times a second (overhead aside).

Help me understand the implications of the faster acq. speed. Obviously for a
quick event to be measured, the speed needs to be quick or the event will
pass unnoticed. Having said that, as long as the event overlaps *any* period
of time with the acquisition window, the peak value will be measured. Yes?
It's kind of a random chance of getting the acquisition (for events <
acquisition speed) isn't it? But not impossible.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[Phil Allison]

"notme"

After a short phone conversation with a tech support person at Fluke, I
think
I understand the difference: it's the acquisition speed. (The new clamps
also
have triggered event feature, but that's icing on the cake.)

In the clamp meters in Fluke's present product lineup that have the
"In-rush"
feature, the acquisition speed is listed as 100 mS.

** The term actually used is "integration time " - very important .

In other words, old (model 36) meters sample 4 times a second. New (model
33x) meters sample 10 times a second (overhead aside).

** Not at all what Fluke claim.

See page 2 of this pdf.

http://assets.fluke.com/appnotes/1629920_.pdf

The 33x meters are actually sampling the current surge wave a " large number
" of times in the crucial first few cycles of applied AC power, so that the
peak value can be found.

This is quite unlike your typical DMM that *ANALOGUE * samples a DC input
voltage a few times a second - with these, an AC to DC converter ( true rms
or average rectified value ) is needed to measure any AC wave.



.... Phil

 

[notme]

http://assets.fluke.com/appnotes/1629920_.pdf

Very good description of the In-rush feature. I wish the guy at Fluke would
have recommended it.

Thanks for your observations, Phil. You've been very helpful.

Dave

 

[Phil Allison]

"notme"

http://assets.fluke.com/appnotes/1629920_.pdf

Very good description of the In-rush feature. I wish the guy at Fluke
would
have recommended it.

** The link was very hard to find, Fluke's site alluded to its existence but
was not clear on where it was.

Google helped out ....

Thanks for your observations, Phil. You've been very helpful.

** DMMs baffle the masses, it seems.

Mainly cos the name is so misleading.



..... Phil

 

[Andy]

On Nov 12, 1:09 am, "Phil Allison" <phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"notme"



http://assets.fluke.com/appnotes/1629920_.pdf

Very good description of the In-rush feature. I wish the guy at Fluke
would
have recommended it.

** The link was very hard to find, Fluke's site alluded to its existence but
was not clear on where it was.

    Google helped out ....

Thanks for your observations, Phil. You've been very helpful.

** DMMs baffle the masses,  it seems.

   Mainly cos the name is so misleading.

....  Phil

I recently did some tests on the inrush current on a wound rotor
motor. I used two fluke meters, both with inrush capacity. And I
also built my own circuit using CT, a few resistors, a couple op amps,
and a data acquisition card. The data acquisition card was set to
sample at 1000Hz. I ran the tests by starting the data acquisition,
and then starting the motor. The samples were taken for 1 second.
With the data card I was able to get very good graphs of the
asymmetric starting current. However, the max amplitude of the
starting current measured by the data acquisition card was remarkably
different from that measured by the Fluke. The fluke does not
necessarily see the max waveform. The fluke takes a bunch of samples
in the first few cycles, and then spits out the max of what it
measured. I think the flukes are fine, but it should be noted that
they can be off by quite a bit. In my tests, the difference between
the fluke and the data circuit ranged from a few percent to almost
100%.

 

[daestrom]

Andy wrote:

On Nov 12, 1:09 am, "Phil Allison" <phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
"notme"



http://assets.fluke.com/appnotes/1629920_.pdf
Very good description of the In-rush feature. I wish the guy at Fluke
would
have recommended it.
** The link was very hard to find, Fluke's site alluded to its existence but
was not clear on where it was.

Google helped out ....

Thanks for your observations, Phil. You've been very helpful.
** DMMs baffle the masses, it seems.

Mainly cos the name is so misleading.

.... Phil

I recently did some tests on the inrush current on a wound rotor
motor. I used two fluke meters, both with inrush capacity. And I
also built my own circuit using CT, a few resistors, a couple op amps,
and a data acquisition card. The data acquisition card was set to
sample at 1000Hz. I ran the tests by starting the data acquisition,
and then starting the motor. The samples were taken for 1 second.
With the data card I was able to get very good graphs of the
asymmetric starting current. However, the max amplitude of the
starting current measured by the data acquisition card was remarkably
different from that measured by the Fluke. The fluke does not
necessarily see the max waveform. The fluke takes a bunch of samples
in the first few cycles, and then spits out the max of what it
measured. I think the flukes are fine, but it should be noted that
they can be off by quite a bit. In my tests, the difference between
the fluke and the data circuit ranged from a few percent to almost
100%.

Now you've introduced another nuance to the discussion.

Reading the app note it seems that Fluke designed there 33 meters to
read the symetrical currents for motor starting.

But as you mentioned, large inductive loads often have a DC offset
component to their starting current. This comes as an artifact of
closing the starter when the sine wave is not at zero-crossing
(inevitable in a three-phase motor).

You can see this in oscillograph traces, or hi frequency samping such as
your set up. But it's hard to get repeatability unless you have a
zero-crossing motor starter. Each time the motor/transformer is
energized, it's likely to be at a different point on the sine wave.

(some large motor/transformer protection schemes avoid false-tripping on
this in-rush by using various techniques such has harmonic-restraint, or
simple time delays)

I wonder if Fluke deliberately filter out the DC offset just so they
don't have to explain why the reading changes each time you start the
motor

daestrom

 

[Phil Allison]

"daestrom"

Reading the app note it seems that Fluke designed there 33 meters to read
the symetrical currents for motor starting.

But as you mentioned, large inductive loads often have a DC offset
component to their starting current. This comes as an artifact of closing
the starter when the sine wave is not at zero-crossing

** Fraid you have got that all wrong.

The way to *guarantee* very large inrush surges ( with transformers and
transformer based PSUs) is to switch on at the zero crossing of the AC
voltage.

Cos doing this generates the maximum degree of magnetic saturation in the
core.

I wonder if Fluke deliberately filter out the DC offset just so they don't
have to explain why the reading changes each time you start the motor

** Fluke make no specific claims about the accuracy of their "inrush surge"
detection circuitry.

But I would not doubt is does the job required, as far as motors and
circuit breakers are concerned.


..... Phil

 

[Shaun]

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:7m3ik3F3fri91U1@mid.individual.net...

"daestrom"

Reading the app note it seems that Fluke designed there 33 meters to read
the symetrical currents for motor starting.

But as you mentioned, large inductive loads often have a DC offset
component to their starting current. This comes as an artifact of
closing the starter when the sine wave is not at zero-crossing

** Fraid you have got that all wrong.

The way to *guarantee* very large inrush surges ( with transformers and
transformer based PSUs) is to switch on at the zero crossing of the AC
voltage.

Cos doing this generates the maximum degree of magnetic saturation in the
core.


I wonder if Fluke deliberately filter out the DC offset just so they
don't have to explain why the reading changes each time you start the
motor


** Fluke make no specific claims about the accuracy of their "inrush
surge" detection circuitry.

But I would not doubt is does the job required, as far as motors and
circuit breakers are concerned.


.... Phil

*******I'm afraid that YOU have it all wrong

Switch on power at or close to the voltage maximum on the AC sinewave
creates the biggest transient ( surge current) in equipment with a magnetic
core. Think about it.

Shaun

 

[Phil Allison]

"Shaun"

"Phil Allison"
"daestrom"

Reading the app note it seems that Fluke designed there 33 meters to
read the symetrical currents for motor starting.

But as you mentioned, large inductive loads often have a DC offset
component to their starting current. This comes as an artifact of
closing the starter when the sine wave is not at zero-crossing

** Fraid you have got that all wrong.

The way to *guarantee* very large inrush surges ( with transformers and
transformer based PSUs) is to switch on at the zero crossing of the AC
voltage.

Cos doing this generates the maximum degree of magnetic saturation in the
core.

Switch on power at or close to the voltage maximum on the AC sinewave
creates the biggest transient ( surge current) in equipment with a
magnetic core.

** Fraid that is a very silly and persistent myth.

You have obviously NEVER checked it out.

Think about it.

** That is very stupid and very rude.

Read this then fuck off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current



..... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Shaun"

In inrush current measurements first off it's a triggered measurement and
measures for a very short period of time and it doesn't depend on samples,
I think it's an analog approach.

** I see no sign of thought here whatever.




..... Phil

 

[Proteus IIV]

On Nov 11, 3:11 am, notme <no...@notme.org> wrote:

Fluke clamp current meters have 2 features that seem similar: peak and
in-rush. The older models have Max (some: Peak). The recent advent in Fluke
clamps is "In-rush".

How do these differ? Isn't in-rush current the short, max current at
motor-turn on? Shouldn't meters with a Max feature capture this accurately?

Compare, for example, my old Fluke 36 (Max):

http://assets.fluke.com/manuals/36______iseng0000.pdf

and the 334 (In-Rush):

http://us.fluke.com/VirtualDemos/330shock.asp

(click "Explore" then "Selection Guide").

How do Max & In-rush differ? Only in the marketing department?
Or is there a real-world difference?

Thanks,
Dave

THERE IS NO IN-RUSH APPLICABLE WITH CLAMP ON METERS

WHAT ARE YOU A TROLL FISHING FOR COX TOO ?

I AM PROTEUS

 

[Andy]

On Nov 12, 4:04 pm, "Phil Allison" <phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"daestrom"



Reading the app note it seems that Fluke designed there 33 meters to read
the symetrical currents for motor starting.

But as you mentioned, large inductive loads often have a DC offset
component to their starting current. This comes as an artifact of closing
the starter when the sine wave is not at zero-crossing

** Fraid you have got that all wrong.

The way to *guarantee* very large inrush surges ( with transformers and
transformer based PSUs) is to switch on at the zero crossing of the AC
voltage.

Cos doing this generates the maximum degree of magnetic saturation in the
core.

I wonder if Fluke deliberately filter out the DC offset just so they don't
have to explain why the reading changes each time you start the motor

** Fluke make no specific claims about the accuracy of their "inrush surge"
detection circuitry.

But I would not doubt is does the job required, as far as motors and
circuit breakers are concerned.

.... Phil

Shaun is correct in his assessment of inrush current being at a
maximum if the breaker is closed at a zero crossing of voltage.
Because the magnetization current is inductive, the current lags by 90
degrees. So, if the breaker is closed at V=0, and current is lagging
by 90 degrees, then this timing corresponds to a max value of current.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Andy is a Fucking Tenth Wit "

Shaun is correct in his assessment of inrush current being at a
maximum if the breaker is closed at a zero crossing of voltage.

** Fraid he said the direct opposite - pal.

" Switch on power at or close to the voltage maximum on the AC sinewave
creates the biggest transient .. "

Stinking FUCKWITS like YOU have no reason to live.

Top yourself, ASAP

Rat bait would be ideal.

And appropriate.



.... Phil

 

[Shaun]

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:7m5a0kF3gjmisU1@mid.individual.net...

"Andy is a Fucking Tenth Wit "

Shaun is correct in his assessment of inrush current being at a
maximum if the breaker is closed at a zero crossing of voltage.

** Fraid he said the direct opposite - pal.

" Switch on power at or close to the voltage maximum on the AC sinewave
creates the biggest transient .. "

Stinking FUCKWITS like YOU have no reason to live.

Top yourself, ASAP

Rat bait would be ideal.

And appropriate.



... Phil

I looked up inrush current for transformers and I stand corrected, it's
maximum will occur at the voltage zero crossing point. I thought it was the
same as an L R circuit in which case if switch closes as the peak of the ac
waveform it causes the maximum transient.

Shaun

BTW: Phil you are very RUDE!!

 

[Phil Allison]

"Shaun"

I looked up inrush current for transformers and I stand corrected, it's
maximum will occur at the voltage zero crossing point. I thought it was
the same as an L R circuit in which case if switch closes as the peak of
the ac waveform it causes the maximum transient.

** Now you owe me a big apology.

BTW: Phil you are very RUDE!!

** Drop dead you tedious wanker.


...... Phil