Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.

D

Denis Gleeson

Guest
Hello all

Without going into the application in too much detail we are looking
into
the possibility of allowing the identification of items through a
persons sense of touch.

So what I am researching at the moment is passing a waveform down a
pair of wires which when held (the wires that is) will allow the
person to identify that they have the correct item (correct pair of
wires in this case).

Is there any information out there on this sort of thing? Has anybody
tried this before? What sort of safety regulations etc. apply?

Any help or suggestions appreciated.

Regards

Denis
 
On 4 Dec 2004 08:55:33 -0800, dgleeson-2@utvinternet.com (Denis Gleeson) wrote:

Hello all

Without going into the application in too much detail we are looking
into
the possibility of allowing the identification of items through a
persons sense of touch.
Click to expand...
http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/isis/projects/brailleproject.html ?

So what I am researching at the moment is passing a waveform down a
pair of wires which when held (the wires that is) will allow the
person to identify that they have the correct item (correct pair of
wires in this case).

Is there any information out there on this sort of thing? Has anybody
tried this before? What sort of safety regulations etc. apply?

Any help or suggestions appreciated.

Regards

Denis
Click to expand...
 
So what I am researching at the moment is passing a waveform down a
pair of wires which when held (the wires that is) will allow the
Click to expand...
Very silly and exceedingly dangerous idea. No lawyer or insurance
company will touch you with a fifty-foot cattle prod.

Modulate the speed of a pager motor held in the hand. You can find
good examples of this kind of technology in the sex toy industry (and
I am not being facetious). See for instance
<http://www.babeland.com/page/TIB/PROD/vibrators-couples/DM215780>. If
the intended users of this appliance can tell the difference between
the various settings, then your intended users will be able to, also.
 
On 4 Dec 2004 08:55:33 -0800, dgleeson-2@utvinternet.com (Denis
Gleeson) wrote:

Hello all

Without going into the application in too much detail we are looking
into
the possibility of allowing the identification of items through a
persons sense of touch.

So what I am researching at the moment is passing a waveform down a
pair of wires which when held (the wires that is) will allow the
person to identify that they have the correct item (correct pair of
wires in this case).

Is there any information out there on this sort of thing? Has anybody
tried this before? What sort of safety regulations etc. apply?

Any help or suggestions appreciated.

Regards

Denis
Click to expand...
This may not be very practical. The sensitivity level (too little/too
much) is in a rather narrow range and varies greatly between persons.
What one may not feel another goes OUCH. As ohters have stated, use
some kind of vibrating transducer, piezo or micromotor.

- YD.

--
Remove HAT if replying by mail.
 
I read in sci.electronics.design that Roland Zitzke
<FODVRUTMSTJC@spammotel.com> wrote (in <41b6f241$1_1@news.ecore.net>)
about 'Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.', on
Wed, 8 Dec 2004:
the
approach could result in a much less gragil technology
Click to expand...
That would be a very distinct advantage. (;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
 
"Robert Monsen" <rcsurname@comcast.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:eSHtd.628892$mD.13594@attbi_s02...
Roland Zitzke wrote:
I am using such device for 25 years now myself and as an engineer I am
constantly looking for techniques to replace / rebuilt it.


Roland, is this a device to help you see? I've read about these, but never
actually had any direct contact. Can you recognize different faces? Or the
fact that a face is in front of you?
Click to expand...
Yes, I use it because I am blind and it lets me recognize images when moving
a CCD camera over it.

As mentioned the represented image is quite small (20 x 5) and this is not
enough for recognizing complex structures like a face in the sence that I
could tell two faces apart.
Biometry is a science of it's own ;-)

With a device I suggested it could be a much larger image and that would
certainly enable "TV for the blind" to some degree.

/Roland
 
"Jim Douglas" <james.douglas@genesis-software.com> wrote:

Check out the medical device called a "Tens" unit, it's send a small
tingle.
Click to expand...
The first part of the problem is to find a set of nerves on/in the body
which can be used to "see". The fingertips are sensitive, but very small.

I would try the skin on one of my thighs, it is fairly easy to attach a
thin elastic cloth around it and leave it on all day.

Then I need a way to excite the nerves in the skin of my thigh.

200*300 points, or more, on the inside of the cloth will excite the
nerves and create a picture which wraps around my thigh, and I use the
nerves in the skin to "see" it.

The idea about electrostimulation fits well into this device.
I would simply try different combinations of frequencies and currents
until I found a setting which gave the best "image" without being painful
in any way.
Mechanical stimulation is also possible, but would be a little more
difficult to manufacture.

A small videocamera can be hidden below or above my own face, in a
band around my head, like a tennis player's sweatband, for example.

So I would feel with my thigh what the camera sees.

With some training it could become really useful.



--
Roger J.
 
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:50:08 +0100, Roland Zitzke wrote:
But I simply don't see a big market for such product since even my old
machine is no longer made.
/Roland
Click to expand...
I hope I'm not being impertinent, but how do you read newsgroups? With
your device we're talking about, or do you have talking software?

Thanks,
Rich
 
Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:

Put the device _in_ the sweatband, and feel it on your forehead.
Click to expand...
That is a good idea too, and it would simplify the wiring as the camera
and the skin area are so close. The whole device could be integrated in
the head band. But I wonder if it would be better for feeling where
things are in the picture.

For my second choice, I'd go chest or back. But as Mr. Woodgate has
mentioned, the thigh is probably one of the least sensitive pieces of
skin that you have. Then again, this might simplify the design.

Y'know, this could turn out to be an interesting project!

But I still say that applying electric shocks doesn't sound like the
best way to do things.
Click to expand...
I am not talking about painful levels, just a tingling sensation.

Hey! How about some of those microphonic/piezoelectric SMT caps? ;-)
Click to expand...
You mean for translation from electrical signals to mechanical?

The beepers in pocket computers are like a piece of tape, thin adhesive
piezoelectric material. It can produce a mechanical movement controlled
by electrical signals. Yes, it could work too.


--
Roger J.
 
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 20:31:18 +0000, the renowned John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich Grise <rich@example.net
wrote (in <pan.2004.12.10.19.16.31.64580@example.net>) about 'Circuit
that produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.', on Fri, 10 Dec
2004:
I hope I'm not being impertinent, but how do you read newsgroups? With
your device we're talking about, or do you have talking software?

The Royal National Institute for the Blind in UK has done an enormous
amount of work on computer aids for blind people. Quite a few years ago,
they has voice-operated writers (needed a lot of training, so not viable
commercially) and readers. The readers would run at speeds far higher
than normal speech and people were trained to understand at those
speeds.
Click to expand...
The human brain can interpret speech at a much higher speed than
people can speak clearly. There are devices that speed up voice
(essentially by stealing chunks of it, so that it doesn't increase in
pitch) and they are still understandable at much higher than normal
speeds. I wonder if there's a better algorithm that might be practical
today.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
 
John Woodgate wrote:

The Royal National Institute for the Blind in UK has done an enormous
amount of work on computer aids for blind people. Quite a few years ago,
they has voice-operated writers (needed a lot of training, so not viable
commercially) and readers. The readers would run at speeds far higher
than normal speech and people were trained to understand at those
speeds.
Click to expand...
I have seen ads for devices that speed up speech, either by
removing space between words or by playing it faster without
changing the pitch. I am pretty sure that some local radio
stations do this on some commercials - I don't think that a
human can talk that fast.
 
Spehro Pefhany wrote:

The human brain can interpret speech at a much higher speed than
people can speak clearly. There are devices that speed up voice
(essentially by stealing chunks of it, so that it doesn't increase in
pitch) and they are still understandable at much higher than normal
speeds. I wonder if there's a better algorithm that might be practical
today.
Click to expand...
An old trick that the books on tape folks do is to speed up the tape
a percentage point or so to avoid having to use a small part of the
last tape. I wonder if I could cobble together a program that gives
me independent control of the length of the silences, vowels, and
consonants...
 
Rich Grise wrote:

But I still say that applying electric shocks doesn't sound like the best
way to do things.

Hey! How about some of those microphonic/piezoelectric SMT caps? ;-)
Click to expand...
Now *that's* an interesting idea!

I think that I could localize a small mechanical buzzer a lot better
that I could localize a shock. I wonder whether a frequency-of-
buzzing to color-of-image maping would be beneficial.

You know, the government likes to give grants to anyone who works
on technology to assist the handicapped...
 
In comp.arch.embedded Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:

But I still say that applying electric shocks doesn't sound like the best
way to do things.
Click to expand...
Seconded. Keeping in mind that our nerves themselves are operating
based on electricity, I suspect that the basic rule of thumb is:
there's no such thing as safe electrostimulation of sensory nerves.
Your stimulus can either be too weak for anything to be registered at
all, or too strong to be safe.

The margin between these two thresholds on stimulus strength is
probably too small to be safe for everyday usage other than in a
*very* closely controlled environment (say, within shouting distance
of an ICU, with trained medical personnel controlling the apparatus,
given a rather specific medical indication for doing it).

--
Hans-Bernhard Broeker (broeker@physik.rwth-aachen.de)
Even if all the snow were burnt, ashes would remain.
 
I suspect that the basic rule of thumb is:
there's no such thing as safe electrostimulation of sensory nerves.
Click to expand...
Bit melodramatic, what?

Big Rule of the Universe #4.3.a:

There is no such thing as no such thing.

--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
Remove spaces etc. to reply: n o lindan at net com dot com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
 
I read in sci.electronics.design that Nicholas O. Lindan <see@sig.com>
wrote (in <zwEvd.4831$Yj4.2677@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>) about
'Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.', on Tue, 14
Dec 2004:

There is no such thing as no such thing.
Click to expand...
Quite right. Now I have a special bargain for you. A hundred $6 bills
for $500.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
 
In article <YR3DCyE3SyvBFwl3@jmwa.demon.co.uk>,
jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk says...
I read in sci.electronics.design that Nicholas O. Lindan <see@sig.com
wrote (in <zwEvd.4831$Yj4.2677@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>) about
'Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.', on Tue, 14
Dec 2004:

There is no such thing as no such thing.

Quite right. Now I have a special bargain for you. A hundred $6 bills
for $500.
Click to expand...
Good deal! Your $500 bill is in the mail.

--
Keith
 
John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Nicholas O. Lindan <see@sig.com
wrote (in <zwEvd.4831$Yj4.2677@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>) about
'Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.', on Tue, 14
Dec 2004:


There is no such thing as no such thing.


Quite right. Now I have a special bargain for you. A hundred $6 bills
for $500.
Hmm. thats a deal! is 100 all you have in stock! :)
Click to expand...
 
I read in sci.electronics.design that Keith Williams <krw@att.bizzzz>
wrote (in <MPG.1c28f956e245ec49897d3@news.individual.net>) about
'Circuit that produces a tingling sensation in the fingers.', on Tue, 14
Dec 2004:

Good deal! Your $500 bill is in the mail.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I can only accept four $125 bills, or three Ł133.33 bills.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
 
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