Circuit design help... - basic_schematic.jpg (0/1)

[Martin]

Hi,

Sorry to be posting what to some (most ) of you guys will seem a
really stupid question.
Here is a link to a cct

http://www.redcircuits.com/Page85.htm

What I would like to know is, what is the function of the diode (D1)
in this cct.
I am making a similar circuit, Instead of using transitors I am using
a LM7812 to regulate the voltage to the LED's, then a resistor to each
LED array to limit the curent. Should I also be placing a diode before
the current limiting resistor? Or do I not need a diode at all?

I have attached a jpg of the basic schematic I am using.

Any and all help gratefully received.

 

[Tim Wescott]

Martin wrote:

Hi,

Sorry to be posting what to some (most ) of you guys will seem a
really stupid question.
Here is a link to a cct

http://www.redcircuits.com/Page85.htm

What I would like to know is, what is the function of the diode (D1)
in this cct.
I am making a similar circuit, Instead of using transitors I am using
a LM7812 to regulate the voltage to the LED's, then a resistor to each
LED array to limit the curent. Should I also be placing a diode before
the current limiting resistor? Or do I not need a diode at all?

I have attached a jpg of the basic schematic I am using.

Any and all help gratefully received.

The diode is there so that there won't be _too_ much difference between
the brightness when S2 is closed vs. when S1 _and_ S2 are closed.

Your LM7812 idea won't need the diodes, probably, depending on what
you're doing.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 30 May 2004 17:24:40 +0000 (UTC)) it happened Martin
<me@me.com> wrote in <3k3kb0lv9e2onp3lpl5q3t73oav0j969jp@4ax.com>:

Hi,

Sorry to be posting what to some (most ) of you guys will seem a
really stupid question.
Here is a link to a cct

http://www.redcircuits.com/Page85.htm

What I would like to know is, what is the function of the diode (D1)
in this cct.
I am making a similar circuit, Instead of using transitors I am using
a LM7812 to regulate the voltage to the LED's, then a resistor to each
LED array to limit the curent. Should I also be placing a diode before
the current limiting resistor? Or do I not need a diode at all?
Yoiu need no diode and no opamps!

Switch and resistor will do.

I have attached a jpg of the basic schematic I am using.
Someone's gone get pedantic about this

JP

 

[Gareth]

Martin wrote:

Hi,

Sorry to be posting what to some (most ) of you guys will seem a
really stupid question.
Here is a link to a cct

http://www.redcircuits.com/Page85.htm

What I would like to know is, what is the function of the diode (D1)
in this cct.

In the notes it says:

"Please note that the brake current is obtained by paralleling R2 and R3
values"

so I think that the diode is there so that when SW2 is on current can
flow through both resistors, but when only SW1 is on current can only
flow through R2.

I am making a similar circuit, Instead of using transitors I am using
a LM7812 to regulate the voltage to the LED's, then a resistor to each
LED array to limit the curent.

That should work.

Should I also be placing a diode before

the current limiting resistor? Or do I not need a diode at all?

You don't need a diode.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
To reply to me directly:

Replace privacy.net with: totalise DOT co DOT uk and replace me with
gareth.harris

 

[John Popelish]

Martin wrote:

Hi,

Sorry to be posting what to some (most ) of you guys will seem a
really stupid question.
Here is a link to a cct

http://www.redcircuits.com/Page85.htm

What I would like to know is, what is the function of the diode (D1)
in this cct.
(snip)

I think the designer was after two brightness levels, one controlled
by SW1 and one by SW2. But if the brightest level is near the limits
of the LEDs, and you close both switches, you get a current that is
the sum of what you get by closing each of the switches, and this may
put you over the maximum current limit. D1 reduces the peak current
to something less than a sum. (the current from SW2 plus about half of
the current from SW1, equivalent to about 12 ohms total.

There is a solution that eliminates the summing, totally. Move R2 to
the position of D1 and lower its value to 18 ohms. When SW1 closes,
it will have 15 + 18 = 33 ohms in series with it, but when SW1 closes
it will have 10 ohms in series with it. Closing SW1 and SW2 at the
same time is no different than closing just SW2.

However, if you want there to be a significant brightness change when
both switches close, (turn signals slightly more evident when the
brakes are on) just eliminate the diode and use an 18 and 36 ohm pair
so that the maximum current with both in parallel is about the same as
the this circuit provides with the diode, but with a slight dimming of
brakes only situation. The three effective resistances being 36, 18
and 12. for a 1:2:3 brightness ratio.

--
John Popelish

 

[Martin]

Tim,

Thanks for that.

My circuit is also a stop and tail lamp unit. I am making it for my
motorbike.

Martin

 

[Martin]

Jan,

I am using the LM7812 to regulate the voltage.
This is being used on my motorbike where the voltage whilst on the
move is in the region of 14V.
I currently am using the cct without the LM7812, but would like to
keep the voltage constant.

Martin.

Should I not have posted the jpg ? Feels guilty now !!

 

[Fred Bloggs]

Martin wrote:

Hi,

Sorry to be posting what to some (most ) of you guys will seem a
really stupid question.
Here is a link to a cct

http://www.redcircuits.com/Page85.htm

What I would like to know is, what is the function of the diode (D1)
in this cct.
I am making a similar circuit, Instead of using transitors I am using
a LM7812 to regulate the voltage to the LED's, then a resistor to each
LED array to limit the curent. Should I also be placing a diode before
the current limiting resistor? Or do I not need a diode at all?

I have attached a jpg of the basic schematic I am using.

Any and all help gratefully received.

The most reasonable explanation is that the diode is intended to achieve
roughly the same brake light brightness regardless of whether S1 is
closed or not. So if S1 is closed the LED current becomes
0.8/(33||15)=75mA at S2 closed, and when S1 is open when S2 closes, you
have Iled= (0.8-0.25)/33+ 0.8/15=70mA- about the same- and explains why
it is essential to use a relatively high current Schottky. Without the
diode, the difference would be more like 20mA.

 

[Activ8]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 17:31:08 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 30 May 2004 17:24:40 +0000 (UTC)) it happened Martin
me@me.com> wrote in <3k3kb0lv9e2onp3lpl5q3t73oav0j969jp@4ax.com>:

Hi,

Sorry to be posting what to some (most ) of you guys will seem a
really stupid question.
Here is a link to a cct

http://www.redcircuits.com/Page85.htm

What I would like to know is, what is the function of the diode (D1)
in this cct.
I am making a similar circuit, Instead of using transitors I am using
a LM7812 to regulate the voltage to the LED's, then a resistor to each
LED array to limit the curent. Should I also be placing a diode before
the current limiting resistor? Or do I not need a diode at all?
Yoiu need no diode and no opamps!

You mean regulator and right. You don't need that either. In fact a
7812 won't work too well at 13.8 V or less, IIRC, will it?

Switch and resistor will do.

I have attached a jpg of the basic schematic I am using.
Someone's gone get pedantic about this

No shit. Autozone sells the LED lights with a 10 yr warranty. You
just replace the old incandescent bulb.

JP

--
Best Regards,
Mike

 

[Martin]

You mean regulator and right. You don't need that either. In fact a
7812 won't work too well at 13.8 V or less, IIRC, will it?

I must admit I am a little concerned about this, I have read various
specs and some say the 7812 will work from 13.5 volts upwards. This
'should' be O.K.

No shit. Autozone sells the LED lights with a 10 yr warranty. You
just replace the old incandescent bulb.

I have tried these and to be honest didn't like them, I am making a
custom unit that fills the whole of the rear lamp unit.

See http://www.ledsforbikes@btinternet.com for my prototypes.

 

[Rich Grise]

"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:40BA226C.5B016D88@rica.net...

Martin wrote:

I think the designer was after two brightness levels, one controlled
by SW1 and one by SW2. But if the brightest level is near the limits
of the LEDs, and you close both switches, you get a current that is
the sum of what you get by closing each of the switches, and this may
put you over the maximum current limit. D1 reduces the peak current
to something less than a sum. (the current from SW2 plus about half of
the current from SW1, equivalent to about 12 ohms total.

When I looked, I thought, "Hm. A diode OR." It's so that the brake/signal
lamp will come on full brightness whether the running(parking) light is on
or not.

And hasn't anybody noticed the two parallel strings of LEDs with no
current sharing?

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 30 May 2004 17:59:54 +0000 (UTC)) it happened Martin
<me@me.com> wrote in <148kb0ldc1n1ami2g5mkefrporfagja666@4ax.com>:

Jan,

I am using the LM7812 to regulate the voltage.
This is being used on my motorbike where the voltage whilst on the
move is in the region of 14V.
I currently am using the cct without the LM7812, but would like to
keep the voltage constant.

Martin.
Ahm, but for LEDS to be constant, you need constant current!

(Not a constant voltage), so the LEDS in teh collector of a NPN,
with a small resistor in the emittor, and say a volt or so on the base.
You can make a 1.5V wit ha LED on the base, and a high value resistor.
So, anyways : CONSTANT CURRENT.
JP

 

[John Popelish]

Rich Grise wrote:

"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:40BA226C.5B016D88@rica.net...
Martin wrote:

I think the designer was after two brightness levels, one controlled
by SW1 and one by SW2. But if the brightest level is near the limits
of the LEDs, and you close both switches, you get a current that is
the sum of what you get by closing each of the switches, and this may
put you over the maximum current limit. D1 reduces the peak current
to something less than a sum. (the current from SW2 plus about half of
the current from SW1, equivalent to about 12 ohms total.


When I looked, I thought, "Hm. A diode OR." It's so that the brake/signal
lamp will come on full brightness whether the running(parking) light is on
or not.

And hasn't anybody noticed the two parallel strings of LEDs with no
current sharing?

Cheers!
Rich

All in good time. This circuit is very simple to arrange for parallel
current regulation. Just add 1 transistor and another pair of
resistors.

--
John Popelish

 

[John Popelish]

John Popelish wrote:

Rich Grise wrote:

"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:40BA226C.5B016D88@rica.net...
Martin wrote:

I think the designer was after two brightness levels, one controlled
by SW1 and one by SW2. But if the brightest level is near the limits
of the LEDs, and you close both switches, you get a current that is
the sum of what you get by closing each of the switches, and this may
put you over the maximum current limit. D1 reduces the peak current
to something less than a sum. (the current from SW2 plus about half of
the current from SW1, equivalent to about 12 ohms total.


When I looked, I thought, "Hm. A diode OR." It's so that the brake/signal
lamp will come on full brightness whether the running(parking) light is on
or not.

And hasn't anybody noticed the two parallel strings of LEDs with no
current sharing?

Cheers!
Rich

All in good time. This circuit is very simple to arrange for parallel
current regulation. Just add 1 transistor and another pair of
resistors.

Doubling the resistances, of course.

--
John Popelish

 

[Activ8]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 19:26:40 +0000 (UTC), Martin wrote:

You mean regulator and right. You don't need that either. In fact a
7812 won't work too well at 13.8 V or less, IIRC, will it?

I must admit I am a little concerned about this, I have read various
specs and some say the 7812 will work from 13.5 volts upwards. This
'should' be O.K.

No shit. Autozone sells the LED lights with a 10 yr warranty. You
just replace the old incandescent bulb.

I have tried these and to be honest didn't like them, I am making a
custom unit that fills the whole of the rear lamp unit.

See http://www.ledsforbikes@btinternet.com for my prototypes.

Sorry. I'm not going to register with btinternet to view a page.

I never had to worry about the dropout voltage on a 12v linear reg
before, but the reason I brought it up is because that schematic you
were asking about had a 12V source and that of course got me
thinking automotive. Now *assuming* that you get 13.8 volt with the
engine on, the inspection mechanics check brake and tail lights with
the engine off and you might not quite have enough voltage to do all
that.

So, out of curiosity, what didn't you like about those lights from
the parts store.
--
Best Regards,
Mike

 

[Activ8]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 14:05:32 -0400, John Popelish wrote:

Martin wrote:

Hi,

Sorry to be posting what to some (most ) of you guys will seem a
really stupid question.
Here is a link to a cct

http://www.redcircuits.com/Page85.htm

What I would like to know is, what is the function of the diode (D1)
in this cct.
(snip)

I think the designer was after two brightness levels, one controlled
by SW1 and one by SW2. But if the brightest level is near the limits
of the LEDs, and you close both switches, you get a current that is
the sum of what you get by closing each of the switches, and this may
put you over the maximum current limit. D1 reduces the peak current
to something less than a sum. (the current from SW2 plus about half of
the current from SW1, equivalent to about 12 ohms total.

There is a solution that eliminates the summing, totally. Move R2 to
the position of D1 and lower its value to 18 ohms. When SW1 closes,
it will have 15 + 18 = 33 ohms in series with it, but when SW1 closes
it will have 10 ohms in series with it. Closing SW1 and SW2 at the
same time is no different than closing just SW2.

However, if you want there to be a significant brightness change when
both switches close, (turn signals slightly more evident when the
brakes are on) just eliminate the diode and use an 18 and 36 ohm pair
so that the maximum current with both in parallel is about the same as
the this circuit provides with the diode, but with a slight dimming of
brakes only situation. The three effective resistances being 36, 18
and 12. for a 1:2:3 brightness ratio.

Hmmm... Let's think about that. *If* he wants that effect. Noemally,
one filament lights for brake or signal. If the brakes are on,
signaling what? turns it off? I can't recall. I think the tail light
is always a separate filament from the brake/signal, though.

Now OP has come forth with info that this is for his scooter. Don't
some bikes have a center tail and brake light and outrigger signals?

Hey, isn't management/customer supposed to figure all these
requirements out? Why do I find myself doing systems analysis before
I get to design anything?
--
Best Regards,
Mike

 

[Martin]

Sorry. I'm not going to register with btinternet to view a page.

No need to register I made the folder public, I guess really that I
should have given the correct address though

http://photos.yahoo.com/ledsforbikes@btinternet.com

I never had to worry about the dropout voltage on a 12v linear reg
before, but the reason I brought it up is because that schematic you
were asking about had a 12V source and that of course got me
thinking automotive. Now *assuming* that you get 13.8 volt with the
engine on, the inspection mechanics check brake and tail lights with
the engine off and you might not quite have enough voltage to do all
that.

Didn't think of that, very good point well made

So, out of curiosity, what didn't you like about those lights from
the parts store.

The high intensity LED's used have a very narrow viewing angle and as
such, even with the diffusing properties of the red lens cover do not
provide a wide pattern of light, also the ones that I bought did not
provide a white light to shine through the clear bottom part of the
lens to illuminate the licence plate. For a car these bulbs are fine,
but a bike, well in my opinion they are not really suited.
I know that there are newer bulbs which have a white LED section at
90degrees to the red to provide the illumination, but the viewing
angle is not to my liking.

 

[Martin]

Hmmm... Let's think about that. *If* he wants that effect. Noemally,
one filament lights for brake or signal. If the brakes are on,
signaling what? turns it off? I can't recall. I think the tail light
is always a separate filament from the brake/signal, though.

Now OP has come forth with info that this is for his scooter. Don't
some bikes have a center tail and brake light and outrigger signals?

Hey, isn't management/customer supposed to figure all these
requirements out? Why do I find myself doing systems analysis before
I get to design anything?

Mike,

You are indeed correct, if you look into a stop / tail bulb you will
indeed see 2 seperate filaments. The tail filament is around 5watts
and the Stop filament is around 21watts.
My basic schematic has the tail section being current limitied by a
suitable resistor (to provide a current of say 0.01 amps) then when
the brake is applied another resistor is applied to increase the
current to 0.02.
I wanted a voltage regulator to limit the voltage to a stable 12v so
that the current would be constant.
Now I am pretty poor with all this electronics mallarky but surely
even if you are providing a resistor to limit the current, this
current will not be constant if the voltage fluctuates?
So if my bike runs between say 11.7 and 13.7 volts and I am using 5
LEDs with I would need a variable resistance betwwen 320 and 520 ohms.
That's why I wanted a constant voltage.

 

[John Popelish]

Martin wrote:
(snip)

Now I am pretty poor with all this electronics mallarky but surely
even if you are providing a resistor to limit the current, this
current will not be constant if the voltage fluctuates?
(snip)

An active current regulator (not just a resistor) holds the current
nearly constant in spite of both supply voltage changes and load
voltage drop (and LEDs drop less voltage as they get warmer). Since
it corrects for both effects but the voltage regulator corrects of
only one of those effects, the current regulator is better.

--
John Popelish

 

[Activ8]

On Mon, 31 May 2004 13:42:08 +0000 (UTC), Martin wrote:

Hmmm... Let's think about that. *If* he wants that effect. Noemally,
one filament lights for brake or signal. If the brakes are on,
signaling what? turns it off? I can't recall. I think the tail light
is always a separate filament from the brake/signal, though.

Now OP has come forth with info that this is for his scooter. Don't
some bikes have a center tail and brake light and outrigger signals?

Hey, isn't management/customer supposed to figure all these
requirements out? Why do I find myself doing systems analysis before
I get to design anything?

Mike,

You are indeed correct, if you look into a stop / tail bulb you will
indeed see 2 seperate filaments. The tail filament is around 5watts
and the Stop filament is around 21watts.
My basic schematic has the tail section being current limitied by a
suitable resistor (to provide a current of say 0.01 amps) then when
the brake is applied another resistor is applied to increase the
current to 0.02.
I wanted a voltage regulator to limit the voltage to a stable 12v so
that the current would be constant.
Now I am pretty poor with all this electronics mallarky but surely
even if you are providing a resistor to limit the current, this
current will not be constant if the voltage fluctuates?
So if my bike runs between say 11.7 and 13.7 volts and I am using 5
LEDs with I would need a variable resistance betwwen 320 and 520 ohms.
That's why I wanted a constant voltage.

Here's a bit of malarky that might help. LM317 voltage regulator.
Check out the spec sheet for constant current config. Just switch in
the appropriate resistor(s).
--
Best Regards,
Mike