circuit board material of the 1960s

N

N_Cook

Guest
Used by Fender guitar amp company and used eyelets for soldering component
leads into. What was the material made of and how/why does it go bad? I
think of it as whale-hide but its probably something like linoleum ,
compressed linseed etc rather than paper-fibre and lacquer as under x30
veiwing there is no sign of fibrous material
 
N_Cook wrote:
Used by Fender guitar amp company and used eyelets for soldering component
leads into. What was the material made of and how/why does it go bad? I
think of it as whale-hide but its probably something like linoleum ,
compressed linseed etc rather than paper-fibre and lacquer as under x30
veiwing there is no sign of fibrous material.
Click to expand...

Phenolic.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.
 
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3J-dnXytTpS2-BHTnZ2dnUVZ_oOdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
N_Cook wrote:

Used by Fender guitar amp company and used eyelets for soldering
component
leads into. What was the material made of and how/why does it go bad? I
think of it as whale-hide but its probably something like linoleum ,
compressed linseed etc rather than paper-fibre and lacquer as under x30
veiwing there is no sign of fibrous material.


Phenolic.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.
Click to expand...

So is it dyed phenolic? I only ever see brown phenolic material and more
rigid, for the thickness, than this Fender stuff. Next time I come across
some of it I'll burn a sample - unmistakable smell if phenolic.
 
This is what the board looks like and as it is used, colour is correct
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lbhbwnVgio1qeerdao1_r1_250.jpg
Will quite readily bend when cold , say .5 inch displacement over a 2 inch
run although something like 1/8 inch thick
 
On 10/5/2011 10:39 AM, N_Cook wrote:
This is what the board looks like and as it is used, colour is correct
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lbhbwnVgio1qeerdao1_r1_250.jpg
Will quite readily bend when cold , say .5 inch displacement over a 2 inch
run although something like 1/8 inch thick


I believe what you're referring to is called "fish paper".
Click to expand...
A heavy, stiff grey/black cardboard.

Phenolic was between orange and brown, considerably stiffer
and would crack if bent. Commonly used at the time for those
tag strips. Having rows of turret terminals down both sides.

A lot of "That turned out to be a bad idea" techniques were
attempted in the late '50s through the early '70s to eliminate
point to point chassis wiring.

Not all items, and especially "consumer" items were designed
with the idea "This should last forever". That as many items
built as far back as the '20s are still serviceable is more
by accident and over engineering that by conscience design.

Jeff


--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"
 
On Oct 5, 6:40 am, "N_Cook" <dive...@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
Used by Fender guitar amp company and used eyelets for soldering component
leads into. What was the material made of and how/why does it go bad? I
think of it as whale-hide but its probably something like linoleum ,
compressed linseed etc rather than paper-fibre and lacquer as under x30
veiwing there is no sign of fibrous material
Click to expand...
What color is it and how thick is it?

Circuit boards in general "go bad" because they absorb moisture, they
fail mechanically because of stress from soldered parts or the weight
of soldered parts, they become covered with conductive filth, or they
arc-track because of sustained high voltages.
 
N_Cook wrote:
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lbhbwnVgio1qeerdao1_r1_250.jpg

That's too small and too poorly lit to be very useful.
Click to expand...
An image 300% the size would have been better.

something like 1/8 inch thick

Jeffrey Angus wrote:
I believe what you're referring to is called "fish paper".
A heavy, stiff grey/black cardboard.

That's the closest thing that matches the description,
Click to expand...
but the thickest stuff I've seen is nowhere near 0.125".
http://google.com/search?tbs=dfn:1&q=fish-paper

As spamtrap alluded to,
without some kind of coating, this stuff sucks up moisture.
 
"Michael A. Turd"
Nutcase Kook

Used by Fender guitar amp company and used eyelets for soldering
component
leads into. What was the material made of and how/why does it go bad? I
think of it as whale-hide but its probably something like linoleum ,
compressed linseed etc rather than paper-fibre and lacquer as under x30
veiwing there is no sign of fibrous material.


Phenolic.


** Brrrrraaaapp WRONG !!
Click to expand...



..... Phil
 
"spamtrap1888"

Used by Fender guitar amp company and used eyelets for soldering component
leads into. What was the material made of and how/why does it go bad?
Click to expand...
What color is it and how thick is it?


** Grey, about 0.5mm thick.


Circuit boards in general "go bad" because they absorb moisture,


** This stuff is a moisture absorber - something well known to Fender and
others who used it.

Sooo, they hot impregnated it with wax !!!

The KOOK has failed to mention this crucial fact.

The hot wax treatment is not 100% effective and if the item is left in damp
storage for a long time, moisture gets into the material. Re-heating and
melting the wax has no good effect.

The material is like stiff cardboard and was used as SECONDARY electrical
insulation in transformers, ie to separate windings from the core.

Such transformers were vacuum impregnated in varnish after manufacture which
made the grey material insulate OK.


.... Phil
 
Phil Allison wrote:
Turd
Click to expand...

Is it your lunch time already, Phyllis?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.
 
En el artículo <j6hmlg$b33$1@dont-email.me>, N_Cook <diverse@tcp.co.uk>
escribió:

What was the material made of and how/why does it go bad?
Click to expand...
Paxolin?

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
 
Alan Douglas <alan_douglasat@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:hotp87h0boi72ms2mfpd34kllbaep6rvt9@4ax.com...
Probably vulcanized fibre, made of cellulose treated with sulfuric
acid, commonly used for such things as wastebaskets and cheerleaders
megaphones. Fishpaper is also vulcanized fibre but thinner, used for
electrical insulation and is still available. Vulcanized fibre is
very tough, unlike paper-base phenolic which was usually used for
circuit boards.

Alan
Click to expand...

So if its vulcanised fibre board and I burnt a sample of it would it have a
rubber smell ? If it was a paxolin type material then the phenolic smell if
burnt would be a pretty sure indicator
 
Searching "vulcanized fiber board" will reveal many suppliers of this
cellulose material.

http://www.emipapers.com/electrical-insulation.html

I've recently seen a couple of US sources where this VFB material can be
purchased.. Stew Mac for making guitar pickups or other items, and Antique
Electronic Supply for using as general insulating material.

The VFB material has long been used for making switches, terminal boards and
numerous applications where Bakelite or other materials had previously been
used.

VFB is typically die-cut to shape and holes are generally punched during the
same operation.

A different, flexible material is "insulating cambric" which can be sheet
material or tubing.. often amber in color, and often placed between
terminals and surrounding parts.

There are basically no perfect insulators, only some that are better than
others, and most importantly in recent decades, some that are cheaper than
others.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:j6hmlg$b33$1@dont-email.me...
Used by Fender guitar amp company and used eyelets for soldering component
leads into. What was the material made of and how/why does it go bad? I
think of it as whale-hide but its probably something like linoleum ,
compressed linseed etc rather than paper-fibre and lacquer as under x30
veiwing there is no sign of fibrous material
Click to expand...
 
On Oct 6, 10:53 am, "Wild_Bill" <wb_wildb...@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
Searching "vulcanized fiber board" will reveal many suppliers of this
cellulose material.

http://www.emipapers.com/electrical-insulation.html

I've recently seen a couple of US sources where this VFB material can be
purchased.. Stew Mac for making guitar pickups or other items, and Antique
Electronic Supply for using as general insulating material.
Click to expand...
I see AES sells tag and turret boards made of more reasonable looking
material. Search here:

http://www.tubesandmore.com/
 
Bill <nobody@reallynowhere.can> wrote in message
news:j6lno6$72t$1@dont-email.me...
On 10/6/2011 10:46 AM, Dave Heil wrote:
On 10/5/2011 15 35, Jeffrey Angus wrote:
On 10/5/2011 10:16 AM, N_Cook wrote:
No etching of this material. Plain board , punched to take eyelets and
then
wires or component leads fed through the eyelet and soldered. Very
dark grey
almost black , well 40-50 years on it is

I believe what you're referring to is called "fish paper".
A heavy, stiff grey/black cardboard.

Phenolic was between orange and brown, considerably stiffer
and would crack if bent. Commonly used at the time for those
tag strips. Having rows of turret terminals down both sides.

A lot of "That turned out to be a bad idea" techniques were
attempted in the late '50s through the early '70s to eliminate
point to point chassis wiring.

Not all items, and especially "consumer" items were designed
with the idea "This should last forever". That as many items
built as far back as the '20s are still serviceable is more
by accident and over engineering that by conscience design.

It is indeed fish paper and a really heavy version of it. I've seen a
number of amps where it has held up well. I'd guess these were stored
not in garages or basements but in interior rooms or closets.

will a penetrating epoxy poured onto it fix the problem? it would at
least prevent/block moisture.
Click to expand...

It requires some knowledge of the failure mode first, which so far in this
thread has not been explored. Because of its microphonic behaviour I suspect
some sort of capacitance efffect. Hinted at by it only seems necessary to
separate the "active" board and the backing insulation "grounded" board to
stop the rustle and microphony. More permanent fix by securing some rigid
paxolin FRPB between the 2 boards. I suspect something in the core of the
material goes conductive enough to create a capacitor surface around high
voltage points.
 
On 10/7/2011 12:36 AM, N_Cook wrote:
Bill<nobody@reallynowhere.can> wrote in message
news:j6lno6$72t$1@dont-email.me...
On 10/6/2011 10:46 AM, Dave Heil wrote:
On 10/5/2011 15 35, Jeffrey Angus wrote:
On 10/5/2011 10:16 AM, N_Cook wrote:
No etching of this material. Plain board , punched to take eyelets and
then
wires or component leads fed through the eyelet and soldered. Very
dark grey
almost black , well 40-50 years on it is

I believe what you're referring to is called "fish paper".
A heavy, stiff grey/black cardboard.

Phenolic was between orange and brown, considerably stiffer
and would crack if bent. Commonly used at the time for those
tag strips. Having rows of turret terminals down both sides.

A lot of "That turned out to be a bad idea" techniques were
attempted in the late '50s through the early '70s to eliminate
point to point chassis wiring.

Not all items, and especially "consumer" items were designed
with the idea "This should last forever". That as many items
built as far back as the '20s are still serviceable is more
by accident and over engineering that by conscience design.

It is indeed fish paper and a really heavy version of it. I've seen a
number of amps where it has held up well. I'd guess these were stored
not in garages or basements but in interior rooms or closets.

will a penetrating epoxy poured onto it fix the problem? it would at
least prevent/block moisture.


It requires some knowledge of the failure mode first, which so far in this
thread has not been explored. Because of its microphonic behaviour I suspect
some sort of capacitance efffect. Hinted at by it only seems necessary to
separate the "active" board and the backing insulation "grounded" board to
stop the rustle and microphony. More permanent fix by securing some rigid
paxolin FRPB between the 2 boards. I suspect something in the core of the
material goes conductive enough to create a capacitor surface around high
voltage points.
Click to expand...
my guess about the penetrating epoxy is that it would turn the stuff
into a sort of instant FRP
 
Bill <nobody@reallynowhere.can> wrote in message
news:j6o3ns$f2l$1@dont-email.me...
On 10/7/2011 12:36 AM, N_Cook wrote:
Bill<nobody@reallynowhere.can> wrote in message
news:j6lno6$72t$1@dont-email.me...
On 10/6/2011 10:46 AM, Dave Heil wrote:
On 10/5/2011 15 35, Jeffrey Angus wrote:
On 10/5/2011 10:16 AM, N_Cook wrote:
No etching of this material. Plain board , punched to take eyelets
and
then
wires or component leads fed through the eyelet and soldered. Very
dark grey
almost black , well 40-50 years on it is

I believe what you're referring to is called "fish paper".
A heavy, stiff grey/black cardboard.

Phenolic was between orange and brown, considerably stiffer
and would crack if bent. Commonly used at the time for those
tag strips. Having rows of turret terminals down both sides.

A lot of "That turned out to be a bad idea" techniques were
attempted in the late '50s through the early '70s to eliminate
point to point chassis wiring.

Not all items, and especially "consumer" items were designed
with the idea "This should last forever". That as many items
built as far back as the '20s are still serviceable is more
by accident and over engineering that by conscience design.

It is indeed fish paper and a really heavy version of it. I've seen a
number of amps where it has held up well. I'd guess these were stored
not in garages or basements but in interior rooms or closets.

will a penetrating epoxy poured onto it fix the problem? it would
at
least prevent/block moisture.


It requires some knowledge of the failure mode first, which so far in
this
thread has not been explored. Because of its microphonic behaviour I
suspect
some sort of capacitance efffect. Hinted at by it only seems necessary
to
separate the "active" board and the backing insulation "grounded" board
to
stop the rustle and microphony. More permanent fix by securing some
rigid
paxolin FRPB between the 2 boards. I suspect something in the core of
the
material goes conductive enough to create a capacitor surface around
high
voltage points.



my guess about the penetrating epoxy is that it would turn the stuff
into a sort of instant FRP
Click to expand...
But any conductive pathway in the core would remain unaffected
 
On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 08:07:32 +0100, N_Cook wrote:

Bill <nobody@reallynowhere.can> wrote in message
news:j6o3ns$f2l$1@dont-email.me...
On 10/7/2011 12:36 AM, N_Cook wrote:
Bill<nobody@reallynowhere.can> wrote in message
news:j6lno6$72t$1@dont-email.me...
On 10/6/2011 10:46 AM, Dave Heil wrote:
On 10/5/2011 15 35, Jeffrey Angus wrote:
On 10/5/2011 10:16 AM, N_Cook wrote:
No etching of this material. Plain board , punched to take
eyelets
and
then
wires or component leads fed through the eyelet and soldered.
Very dark grey
almost black , well 40-50 years on it is

I believe what you're referring to is called "fish paper". A
heavy, stiff grey/black cardboard.

Phenolic was between orange and brown, considerably stiffer and
would crack if bent. Commonly used at the time for those tag
strips. Having rows of turret terminals down both sides.

A lot of "That turned out to be a bad idea" techniques were
attempted in the late '50s through the early '70s to eliminate
point to point chassis wiring.

Not all items, and especially "consumer" items were designed with
the idea "This should last forever". That as many items built as
far back as the '20s are still serviceable is more by accident and
over engineering that by conscience design.

It is indeed fish paper and a really heavy version of it. I've seen
a number of amps where it has held up well. I'd guess these were
stored not in garages or basements but in interior rooms or
closets.

will a penetrating epoxy poured onto it fix the problem? it
would
at
least prevent/block moisture.


It requires some knowledge of the failure mode first, which so far in
this
thread has not been explored. Because of its microphonic behaviour I
suspect
some sort of capacitance efffect. Hinted at by it only seems
necessary
to
separate the "active" board and the backing insulation "grounded"
board
to
stop the rustle and microphony. More permanent fix by securing some
rigid
paxolin FRPB between the 2 boards. I suspect something in the core of
the
material goes conductive enough to create a capacitor surface around
high
voltage points.



my guess about the penetrating epoxy is that it would turn the stuff
into a sort of instant FRP

But any conductive pathway in the core would remain unaffected
Click to expand...
Bake in 250 degree oven for 2 hours first, allow to cool naturally, then
seal.
 
On 10/8/2011 9:04 AM, dave wrote:
Bake in 250 degree oven for 2 hours first, allow to cool naturally, then
seal.
Click to expand...
How does that fix any carbon pathing that developed?

Jeff


--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"
 
Jeffrey Angus <grendelair@aim.com> wrote in message
news:j6ppj9$3e4$1@dont-email.me...
On 10/8/2011 9:04 AM, dave wrote:
Bake in 250 degree oven for 2 hours first, allow to cool naturally, then
seal.

How does that fix any carbon pathing that developed?

Jeff


--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"
Click to expand...

I had also assumed the problem although initially through humidity take-up ,
the rustling (rather than a louder crackling ) problem, I could only see as
microscopic discharges somewhere
in the core of the material. Separating the 2 boards with PRFB and
insulating the fixing screw that passes between the 2 stops it , presumably
because the pd through the short run of board to the ground is now a longer
path - not cured , just delayed.
If you knew where the conductive paths were , it may be possible to
route/grind slots into the board to cure or preclude these problems
 
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