CFLs and rental properties.

[kreed]

Ran into a friend today who works as a property manager in a local
real estate agency.

He brought up the subject of CFL's and specifically there had been
several complaints from tenants about them burning and smoking when
they failed. Apparently "loud bangs" had also happened in some cases
and at least one CFL "had literally exploded".

Also mentioned , (the failure?, or just a shitty plastic to metal
joint ?) had caused the white plastic bases to disintegrate, leaving
the bayonet part stuck in the light fitting, the rest, hanging from
the wires, no (safe) way to remove it, and needing an (expensive) call
to an electrician to remove the thing, the cost of which ended up on
the landlord.
The language used to describe this situation was VERY far from polite.

He also claimed that there were several tenants that had bought (one
had in excess of 100 bulbs) quantities of incandescants, based on word
of mouth about them being withdrawn from sale, and not wanting to use
these "shitty" new ones. Poor light quality (of CFL) was also
mentioned by some.
(he had seen boxes of stored incandescent bulbs during property
inspections and asked). He said that for his own use, he had already
bought a "significant quantity" from Haymans, following all these
dramas.

I told him of the dimmer problem as best as I could in laymans terms
(he isn't a technical person at all) and I advised that they arrange
with property owners to get any dimmers removed from all their rental
properties ASAP. He promised me he would check if the premises that
had had the catastrophic bulb failures had been using dimmers.

I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms, - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire hazard
I reckon)

Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a clue
as to why. I advised a double pole switch.


His opinion was (quote) "It's the fucking CFL's should be banned, not
the normal light bulbs".

 

[Sylvia Else]

kreed wrote:

Ran into a friend today who works as a property manager in a local
real estate agency.

He brought up the subject of CFL's and specifically there had been
several complaints from tenants about them burning and smoking when
they failed. Apparently "loud bangs" had also happened in some cases
and at least one CFL "had literally exploded".

Also mentioned , (the failure?, or just a shitty plastic to metal
joint ?) had caused the white plastic bases to disintegrate, leaving
the bayonet part stuck in the light fitting, the rest, hanging from
the wires, no (safe) way to remove it, and needing an (expensive) call
to an electrician to remove the thing, the cost of which ended up on
the landlord.
The language used to describe this situation was VERY far from polite.

He also claimed that there were several tenants that had bought (one
had in excess of 100 bulbs) quantities of incandescants, based on word
of mouth about them being withdrawn from sale, and not wanting to use
these "shitty" new ones. Poor light quality (of CFL) was also
mentioned by some.
(he had seen boxes of stored incandescent bulbs during property
inspections and asked). He said that for his own use, he had already
bought a "significant quantity" from Haymans, following all these
dramas.

I told him of the dimmer problem as best as I could in laymans terms
(he isn't a technical person at all) and I advised that they arrange
with property owners to get any dimmers removed from all their rental
properties ASAP. He promised me he would check if the premises that
had had the catastrophic bulb failures had been using dimmers.

I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms, - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire hazard
I reckon)

Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a clue
as to why. I advised a double pole switch.

That would often be a major wiring job. It's quite common for the
neutral wire not to go anywhere near the switch.

Except that I'd have to suspect that the flashing is a result of the
switch being in the neutral wire, possibly with the live wire not going
anywhere near.

Sylvia.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2009-03-31, kreed <kenreed1999@gmail.com> wrote:

I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms, - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire hazard
I reckon)

Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a clue
as to why. I advised a double pole switch.

that sounds like overkill and would be kind of hard to retrofit.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2009-04-01, Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:

I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms, - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire hazard
I reckon)

Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a clue
as to why. I advised a double pole switch.

That would often be a major wiring job. It's quite common for the
neutral wire not to go anywhere near the switch.

Except that I'd have to suspect that the flashing is a result of the
switch being in the neutral wire, possibly with the live wire not going
anywhere near.

there can be enough capacitance between the live and switched live in
the run from the socket to the switch to provide current enough to
make the lamp charge up and flash.

"grounding" the switched live to neutral when the switch is off would
stop the flashing but that requires another conductor to the switch.

 

[Sylvia Else]

Jasen Betts wrote:

On 2009-04-01, Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:

I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms, - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire hazard
I reckon)

Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a clue
as to why. I advised a double pole switch.
That would often be a major wiring job. It's quite common for the
neutral wire not to go anywhere near the switch.

Except that I'd have to suspect that the flashing is a result of the
switch being in the neutral wire, possibly with the live wire not going
anywhere near.

there can be enough capacitance between the live and switched live in
the run from the socket to the switch to provide current enough to
make the lamp charge up and flash.

"grounding" the switched live to neutral when the switch is off would
stop the flashing but that requires another conductor to the switch.

Resistor (of appropriate quality) across the inputs to the CFL?

Sylvia.

 

[Sylvia Else]

KR wrote:

On Apr 1, 9:11 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2009-04-01, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms, - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire hazard
I reckon)
Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a clue
as to why. I advised a double pole switch.
That would often be a major wiring job. It's quite common for the
neutral wire not to go anywhere near the switch.
Except that I'd have to suspect that the flashing is a result of the
switch being in the neutral wire, possibly with the live wire not going
anywhere near.
there can be enough capacitance between the live and switched live in
the run from the socket to the switch to provide current enough to
make the lamp charge up and flash.
"grounding" the switched live to neutral when the switch is off would
stop the flashing but that requires another conductor to the switch.
Resistor (of appropriate quality) across the inputs to the CFL?

Sylvia.


To respond to both posts:

(note - I am talking Australian standard switches and wiring methods,
other countries might be different.)


Jasen -
Like you, I did originally think of shorting the switched active to
neutral when "off" too, however it was pointed out to me that typical
AU light switches are not rated sufficiently for connecting the active
and neutral directly to both the NC and NO terminals (insulation may
break down or arc between the "throw" terminals potentially causing a
short or a fire). This was also mentioned in one of SC's recent
articles on DIY house wiring.

In almost all domestic light circuits I have seen locally, both the
active and neutral come back to the switch plate and the main active
and neutral are available there too, hence the double pole switch
would probably be the easiest and quickest method in these cases.


I have seen one light circuit where the main active and neutral were
present at both ends (switch and bulb) and a single (switched active)
wire ran to the light socket from the switch.

Sylvia:
A resistor (or small bulb like a standard 240v mains rated neon "on"
indicator wall plate insert) may be able to be connected between the
"throw" terminal (the position it is in when light switch is in the
off position) and neutral, this way the switch "throw" terminals
would never be directly across the actual mains, solving that problem.

In normal use, the indicator/resistor would never actually come on,
also avoiding greenies predicable howls of protest that it "wastes
power"

Don't neons have a resistor in series anyway?

Sylvia.

 

[F Murtz]

KR wrote:

On Apr 1, 9:11 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2009-04-01, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms, - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire hazard
I reckon)
Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a clue
as to why. I advised a double pole switch.
That would often be a major wiring job. It's quite common for the
neutral wire not to go anywhere near the switch.
Except that I'd have to suspect that the flashing is a result of the
switch being in the neutral wire, possibly with the live wire not going
anywhere near.
there can be enough capacitance between the live and switched live in
the run from the socket to the switch to provide current enough to
make the lamp charge up and flash.
"grounding" the switched live to neutral when the switch is off would
stop the flashing but that requires another conductor to the switch.
Resistor (of appropriate quality) across the inputs to the CFL?

Sylvia.


To respond to both posts:

(note - I am talking Australian standard switches and wiring methods,
other countries might be different.)


Jasen -
Like you, I did originally think of shorting the switched active to
neutral when "off" too, however it was pointed out to me that typical
AU light switches are not rated sufficiently for connecting the active
and neutral directly to both the NC and NO terminals (insulation may
break down or arc between the "throw" terminals potentially causing a
short or a fire). This was also mentioned in one of SC's recent
articles on DIY house wiring.

In almost all domestic light circuits I have seen locally, both the
active and neutral come back to the switch plate and the main active
and neutral are available there too, hence the double pole switch
would probably be the easiest and quickest method in these cases.

In Australia unless it has changed the practice was to take the active
and neutral +earth to every light fitting point and send a twin to the
switches therefore very rare to find a neutral at the switch.

I have seen one light circuit where the main active and neutral were
present at both ends (switch and bulb) and a single (switched active)
wire ran to the light socket from the switch.

Sylvia:
A resistor (or small bulb like a standard 240v mains rated neon "on"
indicator wall plate insert) may be able to be connected between the
"throw" terminal (the position it is in when light switch is in the
off position) and neutral, this way the switch "throw" terminals
would never be directly across the actual mains, solving that problem.

In normal use, the indicator/resistor would never actually come on,
also avoiding greenies predicable howls of protest that it "wastes
power"


I suggest using the neon indicator rather than just using a carbon
resistor from DSE, because neon its approved for fixed wiring type
240v use, (therefore safer if there is a catastrophic failure ), is in
its own insulated case, readily available, has screw terminals built
in etc.

Installations where there are 2 way switches, motion sensors, wired in
timers and so on are a bigger problem. you could then probably put the
neon indicator insert directly across the bulb socket in the ceiling,
or obtain a suitably rated "bleed" resistor.

 

[KR]

On Apr 1, 9:11 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:

Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2009-04-01, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:

I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms,  - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire hazard
I reckon)

Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a clue
as to why.  I advised a double pole switch.
That would often be a major wiring job. It's quite common for the
neutral wire not to go anywhere near the switch.

Except that I'd have to suspect that the flashing is a result of the
switch being in the neutral wire, possibly with the live wire not going
anywhere near.

there can be enough capacitance between the live and switched live in
the run from the socket to the switch to provide current enough to
make the lamp charge up and flash.

"grounding" the switched live to neutral when the switch is off would
stop the flashing but that requires another conductor to the switch.

Resistor (of appropriate quality) across the inputs to the CFL?

Sylvia.

To respond to both posts:

(note - I am talking Australian standard switches and wiring methods,
other countries might be different.)


Jasen -
Like you, I did originally think of shorting the switched active to
neutral when "off" too, however it was pointed out to me that typical
AU light switches are not rated sufficiently for connecting the active
and neutral directly to both the NC and NO terminals (insulation may
break down or arc between the "throw" terminals potentially causing a
short or a fire). This was also mentioned in one of SC's recent
articles on DIY house wiring.

In almost all domestic light circuits I have seen locally, both the
active and neutral come back to the switch plate and the main active
and neutral are available there too, hence the double pole switch
would probably be the easiest and quickest method in these cases.


I have seen one light circuit where the main active and neutral were
present at both ends (switch and bulb) and a single (switched active)
wire ran to the light socket from the switch.

Sylvia:
A resistor (or small bulb like a standard 240v mains rated neon "on"
indicator wall plate insert) may be able to be connected between the
"throw" terminal (the position it is in when light switch is in the
off position) and neutral, this way the switch "throw" terminals
would never be directly across the actual mains, solving that problem.

In normal use, the indicator/resistor would never actually come on,
also avoiding greenies predicable howls of protest that it "wastes
power"


I suggest using the neon indicator rather than just using a carbon
resistor from DSE, because neon its approved for fixed wiring type
240v use, (therefore safer if there is a catastrophic failure ), is in
its own insulated case, readily available, has screw terminals built
in etc.

Installations where there are 2 way switches, motion sensors, wired in
timers and so on are a bigger problem. you could then probably put the
neon indicator insert directly across the bulb socket in the ceiling,
or obtain a suitably rated "bleed" resistor.

 

[KR]

On Apr 1, 10:04 pm, KR <kenreed1...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Apr 1, 9:11 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:



Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2009-04-01, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:

I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms,  - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire hazard
I reckon)

Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a clue
as to why.  I advised a double pole switch.
That would often be a major wiring job. It's quite common for the
neutral wire not to go anywhere near the switch.

Except that I'd have to suspect that the flashing is a result of the
switch being in the neutral wire, possibly with the live wire not going
anywhere near.

there can be enough capacitance between the live and switched live in
the run from the socket to the switch to provide current enough to
make the lamp charge up and flash.

"grounding" the switched live to neutral when the switch is off would
stop the flashing but that requires another conductor to the switch.

Resistor (of appropriate quality) across the inputs to the CFL?

Sylvia.

To respond to both posts:

(note - I am talking Australian standard switches and wiring methods,
other countries might be different.)

Jasen -
Like you, I did originally think of shorting the switched active to
neutral when "off" too, however it was pointed out to me that typical
AU light switches are not rated sufficiently for connecting the active
and neutral directly to both the NC and NO terminals (insulation may
break down or arc between the "throw" terminals potentially causing a
short or a fire).  This was also mentioned in one of SC's recent
articles on DIY house wiring.

In almost all domestic light circuits I have seen locally, both the
active and neutral come back to the switch plate and the main active
and neutral are available there too, hence the double pole switch
would probably be the easiest and quickest method in these cases.

I have seen one light circuit where the main active and neutral were
present at both ends (switch and bulb) and a single (switched active)
wire ran to the light socket from the switch.

Sylvia:
A resistor (or small bulb like a standard 240v mains rated neon "on"
indicator wall plate insert) may be able to be connected between the
"throw" terminal (the position it is in when light switch is in the
off position) and neutral, this way the switch  "throw" terminals
would never be directly across the actual mains, solving that problem.

In normal use, the indicator/resistor would never actually come on,
also avoiding greenies predicable howls of protest that it "wastes
power"

I suggest using the neon indicator rather than just using a carbon
resistor from DSE, because neon its approved for fixed wiring type
240v use, (therefore safer if there is a catastrophic failure ), is in
its own insulated case, readily available, has screw terminals built
in etc.

Installations where there are 2 way switches, motion sensors, wired in
timers and so on are a bigger problem. you could then probably put the
neon indicator insert directly across the bulb socket in the ceiling,
or obtain a suitably rated "bleed" resistor.

Well... As long as the neon starts to conduct at a lower voltage
than the CFL "starting" circuit................

 

[ian field]

"KR" <kenreed1999@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d569d46c-9845-4a56-9ab8-eef4fb0e6c74@n7g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 1, 10:04 pm, KR <kenreed1...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Apr 1, 9:11 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:



Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2009-04-01, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:

I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms, - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire
hazard
I reckon)

Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a
clue
as to why. I advised a double pole switch.
That would often be a major wiring job. It's quite common for the
neutral wire not to go anywhere near the switch.

Except that I'd have to suspect that the flashing is a result of the
switch being in the neutral wire, possibly with the live wire not
going
anywhere near.

there can be enough capacitance between the live and switched live in
the run from the socket to the switch to provide current enough to
make the lamp charge up and flash.

"grounding" the switched live to neutral when the switch is off would
stop the flashing but that requires another conductor to the switch.

Resistor (of appropriate quality) across the inputs to the CFL?

Sylvia.

To respond to both posts:

(note - I am talking Australian standard switches and wiring methods,
other countries might be different.)

Jasen -
Like you, I did originally think of shorting the switched active to
neutral when "off" too, however it was pointed out to me that typical
AU light switches are not rated sufficiently for connecting the active
and neutral directly to both the NC and NO terminals (insulation may
break down or arc between the "throw" terminals potentially causing a
short or a fire). This was also mentioned in one of SC's recent
articles on DIY house wiring.

In almost all domestic light circuits I have seen locally, both the
active and neutral come back to the switch plate and the main active
and neutral are available there too, hence the double pole switch
would probably be the easiest and quickest method in these cases.

I have seen one light circuit where the main active and neutral were
present at both ends (switch and bulb) and a single (switched active)
wire ran to the light socket from the switch.

Sylvia:
A resistor (or small bulb like a standard 240v mains rated neon "on"
indicator wall plate insert) may be able to be connected between the
"throw" terminal (the position it is in when light switch is in the
off position) and neutral, this way the switch "throw" terminals
would never be directly across the actual mains, solving that problem.

In normal use, the indicator/resistor would never actually come on,
also avoiding greenies predicable howls of protest that it "wastes
power"

I suggest using the neon indicator rather than just using a carbon
resistor from DSE, because neon its approved for fixed wiring type
240v use, (therefore safer if there is a catastrophic failure ), is in
its own insulated case, readily available, has screw terminals built
in etc.

Installations where there are 2 way switches, motion sensors, wired in
timers and so on are a bigger problem. you could then probably put the
neon indicator insert directly across the bulb socket in the ceiling,
or obtain a suitably rated "bleed" resistor.

Well... As long as the neon starts to conduct at a lower voltage
than the CFL "starting" circuit................

Most CFLs I've had apart used a diac starter circuit - AFAIK with a
breakover voltage about 32V.

 

[ian field]

"Jasen Betts" <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:gqvfc8$tu6$3@reversiblemaps.ath.cx...

On 2009-03-31, kreed <kenreed1999@gmail.com> wrote:

I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms, - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire hazard
I reckon)

Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a clue
as to why. I advised a double pole switch.

that sounds like overkill and would be kind of hard to retrofit.

If you have a neutral at the switch plate, a single pole changeover will
do - simply switch the lamp feed from live to neutral

In the serious bodge category, if there's no neutral switch the feed to
earth (I wonder how many lamps it would take to trip a ELCB?).

 

[Sylvia Else]

KR wrote:

On Apr 1, 11:39 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
KR wrote:
On Apr 1, 9:11 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2009-04-01, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms, - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire hazard
I reckon)
Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a clue
as to why. I advised a double pole switch.
That would often be a major wiring job. It's quite common for the
neutral wire not to go anywhere near the switch.
Except that I'd have to suspect that the flashing is a result of the
switch being in the neutral wire, possibly with the live wire not going
anywhere near.
there can be enough capacitance between the live and switched live in
the run from the socket to the switch to provide current enough to
make the lamp charge up and flash.
"grounding" the switched live to neutral when the switch is off would
stop the flashing but that requires another conductor to the switch.
Resistor (of appropriate quality) across the inputs to the CFL?
Sylvia.
To respond to both posts:
(note - I am talking Australian standard switches and wiring methods,
other countries might be different.)
Jasen -
Like you, I did originally think of shorting the switched active to
neutral when "off" too, however it was pointed out to me that typical
AU light switches are not rated sufficiently for connecting the active
and neutral directly to both the NC and NO terminals (insulation may
break down or arc between the "throw" terminals potentially causing a
short or a fire). This was also mentioned in one of SC's recent
articles on DIY house wiring.
In almost all domestic light circuits I have seen locally, both the
active and neutral come back to the switch plate and the main active
and neutral are available there too, hence the double pole switch
would probably be the easiest and quickest method in these cases.
I have seen one light circuit where the main active and neutral were
present at both ends (switch and bulb) and a single (switched active)
wire ran to the light socket from the switch.
Sylvia:
A resistor (or small bulb like a standard 240v mains rated neon "on"
indicator wall plate insert) may be able to be connected between the
"throw" terminal (the position it is in when light switch is in the
off position) and neutral, this way the switch "throw" terminals
would never be directly across the actual mains, solving that problem.
In normal use, the indicator/resistor would never actually come on,
also avoiding greenies predicable howls of protest that it "wastes
power"
Don't neons have a resistor in series anyway?

Sylvia.

they do.
I discovered that (at age 10) that if you dont have the resistor, and
connect a neon across 240v, it tends to go "bang"

Did you do it multiple times to test this hypothesis, as part of the
scientific method?

Sylvia.

 

[Davo]

KR wrote:

On Apr 1, 9:11 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2009-04-01, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms, - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire hazard
I reckon)
Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a clue
as to why. I advised a double pole switch.
That would often be a major wiring job. It's quite common for the
neutral wire not to go anywhere near the switch.
Except that I'd have to suspect that the flashing is a result of the
switch being in the neutral wire, possibly with the live wire not going
anywhere near.
there can be enough capacitance between the live and switched live in
the run from the socket to the switch to provide current enough to
make the lamp charge up and flash.
"grounding" the switched live to neutral when the switch is off would
stop the flashing but that requires another conductor to the switch.
Resistor (of appropriate quality) across the inputs to the CFL?

Sylvia.


To respond to both posts:

(note - I am talking Australian standard switches and wiring methods,
other countries might be different.)


Jasen -
Like you, I did originally think of shorting the switched active to
neutral when "off" too, however it was pointed out to me that typical
AU light switches are not rated sufficiently for connecting the active
and neutral directly to both the NC and NO terminals (insulation may
break down or arc between the "throw" terminals potentially causing a
short or a fire). This was also mentioned in one of SC's recent
articles on DIY house wiring.

In almost all domestic light circuits I have seen locally, both the
active and neutral come back to the switch plate and the main active
and neutral are available there too, hence the double pole switch
would probably be the easiest and quickest method in these cases.


I have seen one light circuit where the main active and neutral were
present at both ends (switch and bulb) and a single (switched active)
wire ran to the light socket from the switch.

Sylvia:
A resistor (or small bulb like a standard 240v mains rated neon "on"
indicator wall plate insert) may be able to be connected between the
"throw" terminal (the position it is in when light switch is in the
off position) and neutral, this way the switch "throw" terminals
would never be directly across the actual mains, solving that problem.

In normal use, the indicator/resistor would never actually come on,
also avoiding greenies predicable howls of protest that it "wastes
power"


I suggest using the neon indicator rather than just using a carbon
resistor from DSE, because neon its approved for fixed wiring type
240v use, (therefore safer if there is a catastrophic failure ), is in
its own insulated case, readily available, has screw terminals built
in etc.

Installations where there are 2 way switches, motion sensors, wired in
timers and so on are a bigger problem. you could then probably put the
neon indicator insert directly across the bulb socket in the ceiling,
or obtain a suitably rated "bleed" resistor.

I thought neons needed a fairly high start voltage? In which case a neon
wouldn't do what you're trying to achieve. From what I've read, you're
trying to stop a build up of induced voltage in the wires to the lamp.
By having the neon in series with the resistor you essentially have an
open circuit until the voltage is sufficiently high for the neon to
conduct. That's why you have a starter and inductor in a normal
fluorescent light, the operation of the starter causes the inductor to
produce a high voltage spike that makes the tube conduct.

 

[KR]

On Apr 1, 11:39 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:

KR wrote:
On Apr 1, 9:11 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2009-04-01, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms,  - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire hazard
I reckon)
Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a clue
as to why.  I advised a double pole switch.
That would often be a major wiring job. It's quite common for the
neutral wire not to go anywhere near the switch.
Except that I'd have to suspect that the flashing is a result of the
switch being in the neutral wire, possibly with the live wire not going
anywhere near.
there can be enough capacitance between the live and switched live in
the run from the socket to the switch to provide current enough to
make the lamp charge up and flash.
"grounding" the switched live to neutral when the switch is off would
stop the flashing but that requires another conductor to the switch.
Resistor (of appropriate quality) across the inputs to the CFL?

Sylvia.

To respond to both posts:

(note - I am talking Australian standard switches and wiring methods,
other countries might be different.)

Jasen -
Like you, I did originally think of shorting the switched active to
neutral when "off" too, however it was pointed out to me that typical
AU light switches are not rated sufficiently for connecting the active
and neutral directly to both the NC and NO terminals (insulation may
break down or arc between the "throw" terminals potentially causing a
short or a fire).  This was also mentioned in one of SC's recent
articles on DIY house wiring.

In almost all domestic light circuits I have seen locally, both the
active and neutral come back to the switch plate and the main active
and neutral are available there too, hence the double pole switch
would probably be the easiest and quickest method in these cases.

I have seen one light circuit where the main active and neutral were
present at both ends (switch and bulb) and a single (switched active)
wire ran to the light socket from the switch.

Sylvia:
A resistor (or small bulb like a standard 240v mains rated neon "on"
indicator wall plate insert) may be able to be connected between the
"throw" terminal (the position it is in when light switch is in the
off position) and neutral, this way the switch  "throw" terminals
would never be directly across the actual mains, solving that problem.

In normal use, the indicator/resistor would never actually come on,
also avoiding greenies predicable howls of protest that it "wastes
power"

Don't neons have a resistor in series anyway?

Sylvia.

they do.
I discovered that (at age 10) that if you dont have the resistor, and
connect a neon across 240v, it tends to go "bang"

 

[glenbadd]

On Apr 1, 9:33 pm, Jasen Betts <ja...@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2009-04-01, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:

there can be enough capacitance between the live and switched live in
the run from the socket to the switch to provide current enough to
make the lamp charge up and flash.

"grounding" the switched live to neutral when the switch is off would
stop the flashing but that requires another conductor to the switch.

Interesting. I have 2 CFLs on a 2-way circuit (at each end of a
hallway).
The CFL in one of the fittings flashes (very faintly every few
seconds).
The other one doesn't. Swapping over the CFLs indicates it is
related to the fitting and wiring, not the CFL itself.

Glenn.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Davo the Dickhead "

I thought neons needed a fairly high start voltage?

** Funny how the things work so well on the US 115 volt supply then - with
just a series resistor.

In which case...

** What case?

You never posted one - cos you do not have one.

a neon wouldn't do what you're trying to achieve.

** False conclusion based on a silly false premise.

From what I've read, you're trying to stop a build up of induced voltage
in the wires to the lamp.
By having the neon in series with the resistor you essentially have an
open circuit until the voltage is sufficiently high for the neon to
conduct.

** Which occurs are what voltage ??

Use Google if you like.

That's why you have a starter and inductor in a normal fluorescent light,

** Totally pig ignorant false comparison.

Fluoro tubes are nothing like neon bulbs.




...... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Davo the Dickhead "

I'd suggest the wiring has been incorrectly done in the first place and
needs to be fixed.

** I suggest you find out something about electricity before posting utter
crap like this.

Starting with how a neon bulb operates.

Work your way up to stray capacitance and leakage current as you feel able.

However, the complexities of a CFL are forever beyond a moron like you -
so give up on them.

A big part of the wiring regulations now states that if you have knowledge
of bad wiring you have a legal obligation to get it fixed or disconnected.
You can't "turn a blind eye" so to speak. In industry this is known as
"duty of care".

** Irrelevant CRAP.

Davo the Dickhead is a just another pathetic "big noter" with a grab bag
half baked facts.

If you have a neutral at the switch plate, a single pole changeover will
do - simply switch the lamp feed from live to neutral

This is the sort of action that kills people. An electrician doing this
would probably end up in gaol on a manslaughter charge.

** Wot a load of bollocks.

All electricians know to treat installed neutral and live wires with the
same respect and care.

The public are never meant to touch either of them.



...... Phil

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2009-04-02, Davo <Dave@gmail.com> wrote:

ian field wrote:
"Jasen Betts" <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:gqvfc8$tu6$3@reversiblemaps.ath.cx...
On 2009-03-31, kreed <kenreed1999@gmail.com> wrote:
I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms, - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire hazard
I reckon)

Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a clue
as to why. I advised a double pole switch.
that sounds like overkill and would be kind of hard to retrofit.


I'd suggest the wiring has been incorrectly done in the first place and
needs to be fixed. A big part of the wiring regulations now states that
if you have knowledge of bad wiring you have a legal obligation to get
it fixed or disconnected. You can't "turn a blind eye" so to speak. In
industry this is known as "duty of care".

Last time I checked it was perfectly legal to run the live(red)+neutral(black)
+earth(green+yellow) from the fusebox to the light fixture and then run a
branch from there to the switch with a 2 conductor cable with just live(red)
and switched live(white)

As has been observed the capacitance between live and switched makes this setup
less than ideal for use with CFLs.

If you have a neutral at the switch plate, a single pole changeover will
do - simply switch the lamp feed from live to neutral

This is the sort of action that kills people. An electrician doing this
would probably end up in gaol on a manslaughter charge.

In the serious bodge category, if there's no neutral switch the feed to
earth (I wonder how many lamps it would take to trip a ELCB?).

Not sure what you mean here but domestic ELCBs trip at 30mA.

I doubt a cfl would conduct significant current if wired between earth
and neutral, it does seem like a bodge though.

would putting a Class X2 capacitor in parallel with the lamp be
better?

 

[F Murtz]

KR wrote:

On Apr 2, 1:21 am, "ian field" <gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
"Jasen Betts" <ja...@xnet.co.nz> wrote in message

news:gqvfc8$tu6$3@reversiblemaps.ath.cx...

On 2009-03-31, kreed <kenreed1...@gmail.com> wrote:
I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms, - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire hazard
I reckon)
Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a clue
as to why. I advised a double pole switch.
that sounds like overkill and would be kind of hard to retrofit.
If you have a neutral at the switch plate, a single pole changeover will
do - simply switch the lamp feed from live to neutral

In the serious bodge category, if there's no neutral switch the feed to
earth (I wonder how many lamps it would take to trip a ELCB?).


Yes, that is correct and would stop the CFL from flashing (by shorting
together the 2 lamp wires when power is off) , but the problem is that
you cannot safely connect both the active and neutral directly to the
2 "throw" terminals of a standard Australian light switch, there is a
high risk of arc / breakdown between the 2 throw terminals, leading to
a short and/or a fire.

DONT DO IT.

Don't worry it is very rare to find an earth at the switch position for
the amateur to fiddle with (same with the neutral)

As I said in another post, using a resistor in series with the neutral
to the throw terminal, or wall plate type neon insert (subject to its
breakdown voltage being lower than the CFL's "start" voltage
threshold) is the only safe way I can think of achieving a safe result
with this method.

the ideal solution would be for CFL makers to put a "bleed" resistor
across the filter cap. I doubt it will happen though.

Note - If trying this in any other electrical system, note that as
well as the insulation breakdown switch, if you use any type of "make
before break" switch, you would cop a dead short circuit across the
supply - check the switch first before applying power.


probably wouldn't trip an ELCB, but I wouldnt try wiring anything to
the earth except things that are meant to be earthed. at least it
would probably trip the ELCB if the switch insulation failed.

 

[Davo]

KR wrote:

On Apr 2, 1:21 am, "ian field" <gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
"Jasen Betts" <ja...@xnet.co.nz> wrote in message

news:gqvfc8$tu6$3@reversiblemaps.ath.cx...

On 2009-03-31, kreed <kenreed1...@gmail.com> wrote:
I also told him of the "flashing" problem, he remembered hearing
complaints of intermittently flashing CFL's in bedrooms, - noticed
because he noticed in a property inspection one woman had stuck a
black cloth into a wall light fitting to avoid having to put up with
flashing at night while trying to sleep. (great potential fire hazard
I reckon)
Not surprisingly, the electricians they use didn't seem to have a clue
as to why. I advised a double pole switch.
that sounds like overkill and would be kind of hard to retrofit.
If you have a neutral at the switch plate, a single pole changeover will
do - simply switch the lamp feed from live to neutral

In the serious bodge category, if there's no neutral switch the feed to
earth (I wonder how many lamps it would take to trip a ELCB?).


Yes, that is correct and would stop the CFL from flashing (by shorting
together the 2 lamp wires when power is off) , but the problem is that
you cannot safely connect both the active and neutral directly to the
2 "throw" terminals of a standard Australian light switch, there is a
high risk of arc / breakdown between the 2 throw terminals, leading to
a short and/or a fire.

DONT DO IT.


As I said in another post, using a resistor in series with the neutral
to the throw terminal, or wall plate type neon insert (subject to its
breakdown voltage being lower than the CFL's "start" voltage
threshold) is the only safe way I can think of achieving a safe result
with this method.

the ideal solution would be for CFL makers to put a "bleed" resistor
across the filter cap. I doubt it will happen though.

Note - If trying this in any other electrical system, note that as
well as the insulation breakdown switch, if you use any type of "make
before break" switch, you would cop a dead short circuit across the
supply - check the switch first before applying power.


probably wouldn't trip an ELCB, but I wouldnt try wiring anything to
the earth except things that are meant to be earthed. at least it
would probably trip the ELCB if the switch insulation failed.

Off the top of my head, since I don't have the regulations handy, it's
illegal to connect the earth to the neutral anywhere except at the
neutral bar link in the supply switchboard. Additionally, by law, the
system has to pass a test process before power is applied, and
connecting the neutral to the earth at any place besides the switchboard
would cause the system to fail the test.