CD4013 Vdd?

[Mark Jones]

Question, the CMOS 4013 flip-flop datasheet says Vdd can be -0.5 to
+18v, and recommended operating range is from 3.0v to 15v. But will it
operate at 2.0v? Speed is not an issue.

http://www.megatronics.lk/data/4000/hcf4013.pdf

-M

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:06:44 -0500, Mark Jones <abuse@127.0.0.1>
wrote:

Question, the CMOS 4013 flip-flop datasheet says Vdd can be -0.5 to
+18v, and recommended operating range is from 3.0v to 15v. But will it
operate at 2.0v? Speed is not an issue.

http://www.megatronics.lk/data/4000/hcf4013.pdf

-M

Probably. All you can do is try it. My experience is that CMOS will
usually operate right down to a supply equal to two thresholds, or
about 1.5V. It _will_ be _slow_.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Andrew Holme]

Mark Jones wrote:

Question, the CMOS 4013 flip-flop datasheet says Vdd can be -0.5 to
+18v, and recommended operating range is from 3.0v to 15v. But will it
operate at 2.0v? Speed is not an issue.

http://www.megatronics.lk/data/4000/hcf4013.pdf

It's not gauranteed. The small print below the absolute maximum ratings
says -

This is a stress rating only and functional operation of the device at these
or any other conditions above those indicated in the operational sections of
this specification is not implied.

 

[John Popelish]

Mark Jones wrote:

Question, the CMOS 4013 flip-flop datasheet says Vdd can be -0.5 to
+18v, and recommended operating range is from 3.0v to 15v. But will it
operate at 2.0v? Speed is not an issue.

http://www.megatronics.lk/data/4000/hcf4013.pdf

Don't expect any two to operate similarly, though you might find some
that work. I suggest you start with a chip based on a lower voltage
process like the HC, HCT, ACT, AHC family.

--
John Popelish

 

[Tim Wescott]

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:06:44 -0500, Mark Jones <abuse@127.0.0.1
wrote:


Question, the CMOS 4013 flip-flop datasheet says Vdd can be -0.5 to
+18v, and recommended operating range is from 3.0v to 15v. But will it
operate at 2.0v? Speed is not an issue.

http://www.megatronics.lk/data/4000/hcf4013.pdf

-M


Probably. All you can do is try it. My experience is that CMOS will
usually operate right down to a supply equal to two thresholds, or
about 1.5V. It _will_ be _slow_.

...Jim Thompson

The only problem being that if you get it into production and it doesn't
work the way your samples did the manufacturer will say "tough s---,
you're running it out of spec".

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

 

[Ken Smith]

In article <k3k2p05diqtq5tgnr8hh7rp187p5tee3ka@4ax.com>,
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:06:44 -0500, Mark Jones <abuse@127.0.0.1
wrote:

Question, the CMOS 4013 flip-flop datasheet says Vdd can be -0.5 to
+18v, and recommended operating range is from 3.0v to 15v. But will it
operate at 2.0v? Speed is not an issue.

http://www.megatronics.lk/data/4000/hcf4013.pdf

-M

Probably. All you can do is try it. My experience is that CMOS will
usually operate right down to a supply equal to two thresholds, or
about 1.5V. It _will_ be _slow_.

Something from my memory raises a danger flag.

The CD4013 uses "analog switches" to route the signals to create its
flip-flops.
--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 02:06:09 +0000 (UTC), kensmith@green.rahul.net
(Ken Smith) wrote:

In article <k3k2p05diqtq5tgnr8hh7rp187p5tee3ka@4ax.com>,
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:06:44 -0500, Mark Jones <abuse@127.0.0.1
wrote:

Question, the CMOS 4013 flip-flop datasheet says Vdd can be -0.5 to
+18v, and recommended operating range is from 3.0v to 15v. But will it
operate at 2.0v? Speed is not an issue.

http://www.megatronics.lk/data/4000/hcf4013.pdf

-M

Probably. All you can do is try it. My experience is that CMOS will
usually operate right down to a supply equal to two thresholds, or
about 1.5V. It _will_ be _slow_.

Something from my memory raises a danger flag.

The CD4013 uses "analog switches" to route the signals to create its
flip-flops.
--

Yep. But they be P- and N-types in parallel, thus my 2*VT rule still
applies.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Ken Smith]

In article <hao2p0touthcbvadt7i57kbfmhim8eotq3@4ax.com>,
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:
[...]

Of course. However I doubt that anyone inquiring about a 4013 could
have production in mind ;-)

It makes a good device for rememebering whether the "power is on" or not
in a system that leaves some of its logic always powered. The CD4XXX
stuff draws almost nothing. I know of at least one product with a
membrane keypad that powers on by flipping a CD4013 flip-flop.

Someday I hope some bright company sees this sort of application and makes
a super low power, wide VCC range highish density CPLD or FPGA.

BTW: What I'm designing now draws lots of power so right now, I don't
need that.
--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

 

[Ken Smith]

In article <4191559A.4861DDF5@rica.net>,
John Popelish <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote:

Mark Jones wrote:

Question, the CMOS 4013 flip-flop datasheet says Vdd can be -0.5 to
+18v, and recommended operating range is from 3.0v to 15v. But will it
operate at 2.0v? Speed is not an issue.

http://www.megatronics.lk/data/4000/hcf4013.pdf

Don't expect any two to operate similarly, though you might find some
that work. I suggest you start with a chip based on a lower voltage
process like the HC, HCT, ACT, AHC family.

No-one else said it so "just use a PIC". They work down to 2.0V at slow
clock speeds.

If you care about the low static Idd, most HC parts are OK in that regard
but you have to spec. the suppliers because others aren't.
--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

 

[Mark Jones]

Ken Smith wrote:

In article <4191559A.4861DDF5@rica.net>,
John Popelish <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote:

Mark Jones wrote:

Question, the CMOS 4013 flip-flop datasheet says Vdd can be -0.5 to
+18v, and recommended operating range is from 3.0v to 15v. But will it
operate at 2.0v? Speed is not an issue.

http://www.megatronics.lk/data/4000/hcf4013.pdf

Don't expect any two to operate similarly, though you might find some
that work. I suggest you start with a chip based on a lower voltage
process like the HC, HCT, ACT, AHC family.


No-one else said it so "just use a PIC". They work down to 2.0V at slow
clock speeds.

If you care about the low static Idd, most HC parts are OK in that regard
but you have to spec. the suppliers because others aren't.

Thanks. Actually I'm looking for a way to switch on power to a
PIC16LF876A design running from a single lithium ion AA battery
(4.2v-2.5v.) The design only has one button, so a low-going signal
must turn it on (and consume next to nothing when off.) I was
wondering if a 4013 connected to Vdd and Vss via this button, could be
turned on by the button (which then latches and powers up the PIC.) A
MOSFET was also a consideration, great off resistance but it's hard to
get good conduction with only 2.5v gate voltage. K.I.S.S...

-M

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:05:32 -0500, the renowned Mark Jones
<abuse@127.0.0.1> wrote:

Thanks. Actually I'm looking for a way to switch on power to a
PIC16LF876A design running from a single lithium ion AA battery
(4.2v-2.5v.) The design only has one button, so a low-going signal
must turn it on (and consume next to nothing when off.) I was
wondering if a 4013 connected to Vdd and Vss via this button, could be
turned on by the button (which then latches and powers up the PIC.) A
MOSFET was also a consideration, great off resistance but it's hard to
get good conduction with only 2.5v gate voltage. K.I.S.S...

-M

Why don't you just leave the power on all the time and switch most of
the periperals off to get low Iq? You can use sleep mode and wake on
pin change.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Tim Wescott]

Mark Jones wrote:

Ken Smith wrote:

In article <4191559A.4861DDF5@rica.net>,
John Popelish <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote:

Mark Jones wrote:

Question, the CMOS 4013 flip-flop datasheet says Vdd can be -0.5 to
+18v, and recommended operating range is from 3.0v to 15v. But will it
operate at 2.0v? Speed is not an issue.

http://www.megatronics.lk/data/4000/hcf4013.pdf


Don't expect any two to operate similarly, though you might find some
that work. I suggest you start with a chip based on a lower voltage
process like the HC, HCT, ACT, AHC family.



No-one else said it so "just use a PIC". They work down to 2.0V at
slow clock speeds.

If you care about the low static Idd, most HC parts are OK in that
regard but you have to spec. the suppliers because others aren't.



Thanks. Actually I'm looking for a way to switch on power to a
PIC16LF876A design running from a single lithium ion AA battery
(4.2v-2.5v.) The design only has one button, so a low-going signal must
turn it on (and consume next to nothing when off.) I was wondering if a
4013 connected to Vdd and Vss via this button, could be turned on by the
button (which then latches and powers up the PIC.) A MOSFET was also a
consideration, great off resistance but it's hard to get good conduction
with only 2.5v gate voltage. K.I.S.S...

-M

The 4013 _is_ a MOSFET design, so there's no free lunch there. There
are 3.3V "Logic" MOSFETs out there, so there's hope.

Use a P-channel MOSFET to turn it on, with an NPN "logic" transistor
from the PIC to keep it on. Connect the gate of the MOSFET to the
transistor collector and the switch. Make sure to scan the state of the
switch on power up, or delay for a bit when you turn on -- I've had
power supply decoupling caps bounce up in voltage when the current drain
is removed, turning the uP back on.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

 

[Ken Smith]

In article <b9OdneQGMJEBHw_cRVn-og@buckeye-express.com>,
Mark Jones <abuse@127.0.0.1> wrote:
[....]

Thanks. Actually I'm looking for a way to switch on power to a
PIC16LF876A design running from a single lithium ion AA battery
(4.2v-2.5v.) The design only has one button, so a low-going signal
must turn it on (and consume next to nothing when off.) I was
wondering if a 4013 connected to Vdd and Vss via this button, could be
turned on by the button (which then latches and powers up the PIC.) A
MOSFET was also a consideration, great off resistance but it's hard to
get good conduction with only 2.5v gate voltage. K.I.S.S...

How about this to get more gate drive?:

Buffer
!\
-----! >---+--------->!-------+------+------------ Mosfetgate
!/ / ! !
\ --- /
/ --- \
! !\ ! /
+----! >------------ !
! !/ GND
---
---
!
GND

--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

 

[Tim Shoppa]

Mark Jones <abuse@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:<eIudnX0S78UZ0AzcRVn-tQ@buckeye-express.com>...

Question, the CMOS 4013 flip-flop datasheet says Vdd can be -0.5 to
+18v, and recommended operating range is from 3.0v to 15v. But will it
operate at 2.0v? Speed is not an issue.

http://www.megatronics.lk/data/4000/hcf4013.pdf

Especially with clocked flip-flops going into a region where
rise and fall times are glacially slow is a bad thing.

It's not so bad if you can do your function without a clock line
(a set-reset flip flop).

There are D-type flip-flops that work fine under 2V; the 74AUC74
for example (if you know anywhere to buy it...) has versions that
are supposed to go down to 0.8V.

Tim.

 

[Guy Macon]

Tim Shoppa wrote:

Especially with clocked flip-flops going into a region where
rise and fall times are glacially slow is a bad thing.

If possible, feed those slow rising/falling signals into a
schmitt trigger and use the output of that to clock your
flip-flop. You can use a logic gate that already has a
schmitt trigger on the input, or you can make one with a
comparator or opamp using positive feedback.

 

[Joerg]

Hi Mark,

It looks like you are the OP (can't see the whole thread). Have you
considered the 74HC series? It is meant to operate between 2V and 6V so
it may be a nice fit here. They are much cheaper than newer very low
voltage logic and sometimes cost even less than CD4000 chips. Also, I'd
look into a Schmitt device here.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[N. Thornton]

Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote in message news:<10p9pd81sgfv742@corp.supernews.com>...

Tim Shoppa wrote:

Especially with clocked flip-flops going into a region where
rise and fall times are glacially slow is a bad thing.

If possible, feed those slow rising/falling signals into a
schmitt trigger and use the output of that to clock your
flip-flop. You can use a logic gate that already has a
schmitt trigger on the input, or you can make one with a
comparator or opamp using positive feedback.

Or a logic gate with pfb

NT

 

[john jardine]

"Ken Smith" <kensmith@green.rahul.net> wrote in message
news:cn0bst$l7d$1@blue.rahul.net...

In article <b9OdneQGMJEBHw_cRVn-og@buckeye-express.com>,
Mark Jones <abuse@127.0.0.1> wrote:
[....]
Thanks. Actually I'm looking for a way to switch on power to a
PIC16LF876A design running from a single lithium ion AA battery
(4.2v-2.5v.) The design only has one button, so a low-going signal
must turn it on (and consume next to nothing when off.) I was
wondering if a 4013 connected to Vdd and Vss via this button, could be
turned on by the button (which then latches and powers up the PIC.) A
MOSFET was also a consideration, great off resistance but it's hard to
get good conduction with only 2.5v gate voltage. K.I.S.S...



How about this to get more gate drive?:

Buffer
!\
-----! >---+--------->!-------+------+------------ Mosfetgate
!/ / ! !
\ --- /
/ --- \
! !\ ! /
+----! >------------ !
! !/ GND
---
---
!
GND

--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

Neat idea that!.
Like the way it can extend as a ladder form.
regards
john