CD-R reliability

A

Anonymous

Guest
I dont know if this is off topic on this newsgroup but I have problems with some of my CD-Rs which are 1 or 2 year old. The movies on them begins to show signs of data lost. When the movies are played, large image blocks sometimes appear. I know for sure the originals do not have them. The CD_Rs are Maxell, Fuji films and Sony. I am quite sure it is not the CD recorder because I always watch the recorded movies right after the recording to make sure they are in good quality. I store the CDs in a cool place without any UV.

Anyone else has the same problem? Is there a brand of CD-Rs with guarantee longevity, like 60 years or so?
-=-
NOTE: This message was posted via one or more anonymous remailing services.
 
"Jerry G." bravely wrote to "All" (26 Aug 03 19:41:07)
--- on the heady topic of "Re: CD-R reliability"

Jerry, I just heard on the news today of a Dutch study which showed that
CD-R's were deteriorating at an alarming rate and show many errors after
2 years only. So there may be nothing wrong with Anon's player at all.
This looks like a serious problem if this study story is true!


JG> From: "Jerry G." <jerryg@total.net>

JG> Try cleaning the laser lens on your player. It is possible that it
JG> may have a very thin film of dust on it. Also as you use a player
JG> there is some head wear. This is more critical for these CD videos.

JG> The CD disks should not fade over time, unless they are exposed to sun
JG> light or UV light for long periods of time.


JG> "Anonymous" <remailer@optonline.net> wrote in message
JG> news:4YCFTF9437859.8037962963@anon.post...
JG> I dont know if this is off topic on this newsgroup but I have problems
JG> with some of my CD-Rs which are 1 or 2 year old. The movies on them
JG> begins to show signs of data lost. When the movies are played, large
JG> image blocks sometimes appear. I know for sure the originals do not
JG> have them. The CD_Rs are Maxell, Fuji films and Sony. I am quite sure
JG> it is not the CD recorder because I always watch the recorded movies
JG> right after the recording to make sure they are in good quality. I
JG> store the CDs in a cool place without any UV.

JG> Anyone else has the same problem? Is there a brand of CD-Rs with
JG> guarantee longevity, like 60 years or so?

.... I ran Doublespace on my monitor & get 2 more TV channels.
 
I've been cataloging my cd's. Of 20 Dysan brand burned around November 1998,
5 have come up bad for no apparent reason. One would not play at all, the
others acted as if they had a seriously scalloped HF waveform, though I've
not look at the waveform on a 'scope.
Tried in several known good functioning players.
The Dysan discs involved were AZO blue, made by Mitsubishi Chemical.
These were all burned on an Acer drive - there's a possibility that they
were burned weak to start with.


Mark Z.



"Asimov" <Asimov@-removethis-bbs.juxtaposition.dynip.com> wrote in message
news:MSGID_1=3a167=2f133.0_3f4c1c61@fidonet.org...
"Jerry G." bravely wrote to "All" (26 Aug 03 19:41:07)
--- on the heady topic of "Re: CD-R reliability"

Jerry, I just heard on the news today of a Dutch study which showed that
CD-R's were deteriorating at an alarming rate and show many errors after
2 years only. So there may be nothing wrong with Anon's player at all.
This looks like a serious problem if this study story is true!


JG> From: "Jerry G." <jerryg@total.net

JG> Try cleaning the laser lens on your player. It is possible that it
JG> may have a very thin film of dust on it. Also as you use a player
JG> there is some head wear. This is more critical for these CD videos.

JG> The CD disks should not fade over time, unless they are exposed to
sun
JG> light or UV light for long periods of time.


JG> "Anonymous" <remailer@optonline.net> wrote in message
JG> news:4YCFTF9437859.8037962963@anon.post...
JG> I dont know if this is off topic on this newsgroup but I have
problems
JG> with some of my CD-Rs which are 1 or 2 year old. The movies on them
JG> begins to show signs of data lost. When the movies are played, large
JG> image blocks sometimes appear. I know for sure the originals do not
JG> have them. The CD_Rs are Maxell, Fuji films and Sony. I am quite sure
JG> it is not the CD recorder because I always watch the recorded movies
JG> right after the recording to make sure they are in good quality. I
JG> store the CDs in a cool place without any UV.

JG> Anyone else has the same problem? Is there a brand of CD-Rs with
JG> guarantee longevity, like 60 years or so?

... I ran Doublespace on my monitor & get 2 more TV channels.
Click to expand...
 
Jerry, I just heard on the news today of a Dutch study which showed that
CD-R's were deteriorating at an alarming rate and show many errors after
2 years only. So there may be nothing wrong with Anon's player at all.
This looks like a serious problem if this study story is true!
Click to expand...
This would be a possible occurance with the Sony media and possibly even the
Maxell media. However, the Fuji media is not nearly as likely to have this
happen. Fujifilm media is typically made in Japan, and have been made by TDK
and, currently, by Taiyo Yuden. Both media, especially the type made by T.Y.
have exhibited excellent longevity. I have Fuji discs that are over four years
old and are still reliable.

It may be a problem with his player and/or his recorder.

His player may have a problem with a dirty objective lens or may even have
become marginal to the point where it cannot read CD-R discs reliably. His
recorder could also be to blame if it doesn't write data on the disc reliably.
Even if the initial burn tested out okay when using it with a regular player,
it may still contain a very high rate of BLER (BLock Error Rate) due to poor
media, a poor drive, or incompatibility between the media and drive.

Also, he specifies that he stored his discs in a cool place away from
ultraviolet light. What about other kinds of light? What about humidity?
When the storage area is cool, does it remain at constant temperature or does
it fluctuate? What does the original poster define as "cool" in farenheit or
celsius? Are there points where the storage area can become excessively hot or
cold, even if for very short moments? When the user handles the discs, does he
handle them carefully or allow them to become scratched? Has he ever
accidentally scratched the label side, but thought nothing of it?

We need to know more info.

For instance, if he's using an older Philips or Ricoh drive, that by itself
could be part of the problem or even THE problem. - Reinhart
 
I've been cataloging my cd's. Of 20 Dysan brand burned around November 1998,
5 have come up bad for no apparent reason.
Click to expand...
The Dysan media I've used were made by CMC Magnetics and distributed by Memtek
Products, same company that also deals with Memorex. So far, some of my Dysan
discs are still readable. (Knock on wood). I generally avoid using
Dysan/Memorex media, especially for important stuff, because they never stick
with one manufacturer, so their quality is almost never consistent.

Some of the worst CD-R discs I've ever used were Nashua, which were also OEMed
by CMC Magnetics. They don't take heat that well at all and do not burn very
reliably.

CMC also has had involvement with Mitsubishi, so it's not unusual to have some
Verbatim discs made by CMC, but under the supervision of Mitsubishi.

One good software download for anyone who writes CDs would be something that
reads the ATIP information on CD-R media. This will help identify who made the
CD-R discs in question.

In short, though, I've had best luck with these media:

Taiyo Yuden (made discs for Fuji, Sony, Maxell, Plextor, and Hewlett-Packard.
Discs that are indicated as being made in Japan are usually dead giveaways of
Taiyo Yuden media)

Verbatim/Mitsubishi

TDK (USA and Japanese made discs)

Maxell (only ones made by Taiyo Yuden and Maxell/Hitachi)

Kodak

Mitsui Thermal

As for burners:

TDK
Sony
Plextor
Pioneer
Yamaha
Matsushita (Panasonic)

--------------
STAY AWAY FROM:

CD-R discs:
Nashua
CMC Magnetics
Ritek
TDK (Taiwan made discs)
Memtek (Dysan/Memorex)
Imation
Sony
Emtec/BASF
Philips
no-name discs (like store brands)

Drives:
Acer (a.k.a. Benq)
Lite-On
Ricoh
Philips
no-name drives (Mad dog, Cendyne, Pacific Digital, and the like because you
never know who made them)

- Reinhart
 
Sony claimed a 10 year lifetime for CD's on their web site. They said it was due
to physical effects as the plastic shrunk. I'm sure they were being pessimistic, as
we've all seen good CD's older than that. But it seemed like a good explanation
for a potential problem down the line.

Anonymous wrote:

> Anyone else has the same problem? Is there a brand of CD-Rs with guarantee longevity, like 60 years or so?
 
On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:49:28 -0500, Mike Berger <berger@shout.net>
wrote:

Sony claimed a 10 year lifetime for CD's on their web site. They said it was due
to physical effects as the plastic shrunk. I'm sure they were being pessimistic, as
we've all seen good CD's older than that. But it seemed like a good explanation
for a potential problem down the line.

Anonymous wrote:

Anyone else has the same problem? Is there a brand of CD-Rs with guarantee longevity, like 60 years or so?
Click to expand...
Kodak Gold and Gold/Silver CD-Rs used to be quoted at 50 yrs+ working
life if stored in appropriate conditions. Kodak have discontinued
these CDs but may have some old stock available.

http://wwwuk.kodak.com/UK/en/digital/shop/

If Kodak were confident in their special metal film technology I see
no reason why other makers might not achieve similar claimed
reliability.

I have had occasional failures with other makes, but never Kodak. I
did a little test - recorded two disks, one a "Premium Grade"
unbranded and one a Kodak. Left them naked and label side down on the
back shelf of a car which was parked outside, in sun for at least half
the day, from November to March, checking the disks every few days.
That is, plenty of full sun, and temperatures varing from below
freezing to hot to the touch, and humidity varying from condensation
on a frosty disk to dry. I took some care not to let them get
scratched or knocked about and cleaned them very carefully and
cautiously before testing.

The anonymous disk gave no errors at all for 30 days and then suddenly
became completely unreadable. The Kodak disk still seems perfect,
though I am no longer torturing the poor thing.

Hardly scientific or conclusive. YMMV but it's suggestive
nevertheless.

Regards

AJB
--

Un-stop the address to reply, please.

If the 'self' is an illusion, who is being fooled?
 
"LASERandDVDfan" <laseranddvdfan@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030827105955.16681.00000012@mb-m02.aol.com...
TDK
Sony
Plextor
Pioneer
Yamaha
Matsushita (Panasonic)
Click to expand...
I'd like to add the Sanyo based burners to your list, eg the CRD-BPx series.
Superb, rugged burners.

Dave
 
I'd like to add the Sanyo based burners to your list, eg the CRD-BPx series.
Superb, rugged burners.
Click to expand...
Cool.

Forgot another one ...

Mitsumi.

- Reinhart
 
I left a Memorex blue CD-R out in the direct sun and it was unreadable
within a couple of days. After a week there was no trace of the blue
dye, it looked like a pressed CD. This is obvously not a good way to
store CDs, but proves that they can't take much UV.
Click to expand...
The dye might have literally outgassed through the lacquer on the label side.
- Reinhart
 
I think the first thing to consider on this issue is the reflectivity of a CD-R
vs. a pressed CD. With CD-Rs the reflectivity is in the order of 60% of that of
a pressed CD. So the CD-R inherently has a 40% handicap for readability.

Consequently, as a CD player or drive ages and accumulates dirt on the lens, it
can have errors playing CD-Rs, yet still play pressed CDs with no problems.

Any dye layer aging and deterioration just makes the problem worse. Just my
..02

David H
 
Somewhere around the time of 08/27/2003 07:59, the world stopped and
listened as LASERandDVDfan spoke these words of wisdom...:

I've been cataloging my cd's. Of 20 Dysan brand burned around November 1998,
5 have come up bad for no apparent reason.

The Dysan media I've used were made by CMC Magnetics and distributed by Memtek
Products, same company that also deals with Memorex. So far, some of my Dysan
discs are still readable. (Knock on wood). I generally avoid using
Dysan/Memorex media, especially for important stuff, because they never stick
with one manufacturer, so their quality is almost never consistent.

Some of the worst CD-R discs I've ever used were Nashua, which were also OEMed
by CMC Magnetics. They don't take heat that well at all and do not burn very
reliably.

CMC also has had involvement with Mitsubishi, so it's not unusual to have some
Verbatim discs made by CMC, but under the supervision of Mitsubishi.

One good software download for anyone who writes CDs would be something that
reads the ATIP information on CD-R media. This will help identify who made the
CD-R discs in question.

In short, though, I've had best luck with these media:

Taiyo Yuden (made discs for Fuji, Sony, Maxell, Plextor, and Hewlett-Packard.
Discs that are indicated as being made in Japan are usually dead giveaways of
Taiyo Yuden media)

Verbatim/Mitsubishi

TDK (USA and Japanese made discs)

Maxell (only ones made by Taiyo Yuden and Maxell/Hitachi)

Kodak

Mitsui Thermal

As for burners:

TDK
Sony
Plextor
Pioneer
Yamaha
Matsushita (Panasonic)

--------------
STAY AWAY FROM:

CD-R discs:
Nashua
CMC Magnetics
Ritek
TDK (Taiwan made discs)
Memtek (Dysan/Memorex)
Imation
Sony
Emtec/BASF
Philips
no-name discs (like store brands)

Drives:
Acer (a.k.a. Benq)
Lite-On
Ricoh
Philips
no-name drives (Mad dog, Cendyne, Pacific Digital, and the like because you
never know who made them)

- Reinhart
Click to expand...
Most Cendyne drive were manufactured by Samsung... I had a Lite-On
CD-ROM drive that died in my mom's computer. I replaced it with a
Samsung DVD-ROM/CD-RW and it's been rock solid ever since.

My personal equipment on my workstation is as follows:

Toshiba SD-M1401 SCSI DVD-ROM drive
Yamaha CRW-F1S SCSI CD-RW.

I had a Yamaha CRW-4416S for years before I retired it. :)

--
Daniel Rudy

Remove nospam, invalid, and 0123456789 to reply.
 
Somewhere around the time of 08/28/2003 22:03, the world stopped and
listened as Textool spoke these words of wisdom...:

I think the first thing to consider on this issue is the reflectivity of a CD-R
vs. a pressed CD. With CD-Rs the reflectivity is in the order of 60% of that of
a pressed CD. So the CD-R inherently has a 40% handicap for readability.

Consequently, as a CD player or drive ages and accumulates dirt on the lens, it
can have errors playing CD-Rs, yet still play pressed CDs with no problems.

Any dye layer aging and deterioration just makes the problem worse. Just my
.02

David H
Click to expand...
Now I have a question about that.

Pressed CDs are made from a thin layer of aluminum. The data is stored
on the CD as pits and lands. The pits scatter the beam and the lands
reflect the beam which is your 0's and 1's respectively.

Now, if I take a CD-R and burn it, I'm puching holes through the
reflective layer into the dye layer. The holes are the pits which
scatters the beam.

Now this is what I don't understand. If the dye degrades, decomposes,
or otherwise disappears, it doesn't patch the holes in the reflective
layer, the holes are still there.

So wouldn't the holes be still read as holes even if the dye layer degrades?
--
Daniel Rudy

Remove nospam, invalid, and 0123456789 to reply.
 
On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 07:33:33 GMT, Daniel Rudy
<dcrudy@invalid.pacbell.nospam.net.0123456789> wrote:

Now I have a question about that.



Now, if I take a CD-R and burn it, I'm puching holes through the
reflective layer into the dye layer. The holes are the pits which
scatters the beam.

Now this is what I don't understand. If the dye degrades, decomposes,
or otherwise disappears, it doesn't patch the holes in the reflective
layer, the holes are still there.

So wouldn't the holes be still read as holes even if the dye layer degrades?
Click to expand...
Depends on the technology. Different makers of blank CD-Rs use
different techniques. But, if it's a conventional dye-layer type, no,
you're not punching holes in anything. You're selectively modifying
the optical properties of the dye to 'print' a laser-readable pattern
in it - and if the dye layer disappears, so do your modifications to
it - i.e. your data.

Regards

AJB

--

Un-stop the address to reply, please.

If the 'self' is an illusion, who is being fooled?
 
On 2003-08-30, Daniel Rudy <dcrudy@invalid.pacbell.nospam.net.0123456789> wrote:
Now, if I take a CD-R and burn it, I'm puching holes through the
reflective layer into the dye layer. The holes are the pits which
scatters the beam.
Click to expand...
No, you're zapping the dye layer with the laser, not the reflective layer.

-- uns
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Welcome to EDABoard.com

Sponsor

Back
Top