CAD tools compatibility ?

[Robert Lacoste]

Hi,

We are looking for a new CAD system, mainly for the schematic phase as our
routing is 99% subcontracted. Our subcontractors are using mid to high range
products (PADS, Protel or CADSTAR). So the question : Do you know if these
tools are able to import a schematic designed with a lower cost CAD tool
(say Eagle or Proteus/Isis for example) ? I guess that the netlist could be
imported but I would like to know if the schematic itself can be imported
too.

Many thanks for your advices,
Robert

 

[Ian Bell]

Robert Lacoste wrote:

Hi,

We are looking for a new CAD system, mainly for the schematic phase as our
routing is 99% subcontracted. Our subcontractors are using mid to high
range products (PADS, Protel or CADSTAR). So the question : Do you know if
these tools are able to import a schematic designed with a lower cost CAD
tool (say Eagle or Proteus/Isis for example) ? I guess that the netlist
could be imported but I would like to know if the schematic itself can be
imported too.

Try Kicad. It can export netlists in a variety of formats.

http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/index.html

Ian

 

[Robert Lacoste]

"Ian Bell" <ruffrecords@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
dtk9ha$dgg$3@slavica.ukpost.com...

Try Kicad. It can export netlists in a variety of formats.

http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/index.html

Ian

Thanks Ian, I know Kicad but basically I would like to import more than the
netlist : the schematic itself

 

[Ian Bell]

Robert Lacoste wrote:

"Ian Bell" <ruffrecords@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
dtk9ha$dgg$3@slavica.ukpost.com...
Try Kicad. It can export netlists in a variety of formats.

http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/index.html

Ian

Thanks Ian, I know Kicad but basically I would like to import more than
the netlist : the schematic itself

I see. Not sure if this is possible at all.

Ian

 

[Andy Peters]

Robert Lacoste wrote:

We are looking for a new CAD system, mainly for the schematic phase as our
routing is 99% subcontracted. Our subcontractors are using mid to high range
products (PADS, Protel or CADSTAR). So the question : Do you know if these
tools are able to import a schematic designed with a lower cost CAD tool
(say Eagle or Proteus/Isis for example) ? I guess that the netlist could be
imported but I would like to know if the schematic itself can be imported
too.

It's one thing to export a netlist from a schematic program.

It's another thing to ensure that the layout tool can deal with not
only the netlist, but also the component packages. Your schematic
program needs to work with the same libraries as the layout tool. When
you place an OP275 symbol on the schematic, somehow that symbol must
tell the layout program that it needs to use the SOIC-8 package instead
of the DIP-8.

Basically, you'll have to use the schematic capture program that goes
with your contractor's layout program. If they use PADS, you'll need
PADS. If they use DXP, you need DXP. If they use PCAD, you need PCAD.
Equally as important, you'll need to use their libraries, or at the
least you'll have to create your own library that you'll share with
them.

-a

 

[Joel Kolstad]

"Andy Peters" <Bassman59a@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1140721751.658251.86680@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Basically, you'll have to use the schematic capture program that goes
with your contractor's layout program. If they use PADS, you'll need
PADS. If they use DXP, you need DXP. If they use PCAD, you need PCAD.

This isn't generally true. I'd agree that it's often easiest to keep
everything the same -- and EDA vendors seem to go to some lengths to try to
make people do it so that they capture both sales! -- but many PCB packages
will accept netlists from a handful of the popular schematic captre packages,
and if not there are conversion programs available for any reasonably popular
package.

Equally as important, you'll need to use their libraries, or at the
least you'll have to create your own library that you'll share with
them.

From what I've seen, people who do PCB layout for a living have all their own
libraries anyway and will use them by default unless otherwise instructed.

 

[JeffM]

Our subcontractors are using mid to high range products
(PADS, Protel or CADSTAR).
[Are] these tools...able to import a schematic
designed with a lower cost CAD tool ?
Robert Lacoste

I can't image an affordable 100%-correct layout-import solution.
Protection of proprietary formats and all that.
(See JT's comment in the following thread.)

A previous thread on interoperability:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.cad/browse_frm/thread/b20fcdf704044b8b/41b2d61a68924dfc?q=*-*-created-by-*-*-COMMITTEE+*-*-almost-the-same-effort+they-all-think-*-they're-Microsoft+*-Software-companies-don't-want-you-*-*-*-to-translate-between-tools+zzz+*-nasty-cost+3rd-party-*+turf-battle+Pulsonix-*-*-*-*-*-EDIF

 

[Leon]

Robert Lacoste wrote:

Hi,

We are looking for a new CAD system, mainly for the schematic phase as our
routing is 99% subcontracted. Our subcontractors are using mid to high range
products (PADS, Protel or CADSTAR). So the question : Do you know if these
tools are able to import a schematic designed with a lower cost CAD tool
(say Eagle or Proteus/Isis for example) ? I guess that the netlist could be
imported but I would like to know if the schematic itself can be imported
too.

Many thanks for your advices,
Robert

FWIW, Pulsonix imports schematic, PCB and library files from:

P-CAD (*.PDF)
Cadstar Schematics (*.CSA)
PADS Logic (*.NET)
P-CAD (*.PDF)
Accel EDA (*.NET)
UltiCAP (*.SCH)
Protel (*.ASC)
OrCAD (*.EDF)
Eagle SCM (*.EIS)

Leon

 

[Paul Burke]

Leon wrote:

FWIW, Pulsonix imports schematic, PCB and library files from:

P-CAD (*.PDF)
Cadstar Schematics (*.CSA)
PADS Logic (*.NET)
P-CAD (*.PDF)
Accel EDA (*.NET)
UltiCAP (*.SCH)
Protel (*.ASC)
OrCAD (*.EDF)
Eagle SCM (*.EIS)

Doesn't it import Easy PC then?

Paul Burke

 

[Leon]

Of course it does! I missed it when copying the text.

Leon

 

[Chuck Harris]

Leon wrote:

FWIW, Pulsonix imports schematic, PCB and library files from:

P-CAD (*.PDF)
Cadstar Schematics (*.CSA)
PADS Logic (*.NET)
P-CAD (*.PDF)
Accel EDA (*.NET)
UltiCAP (*.SCH)
Protel (*.ASC)
OrCAD (*.EDF)

Aren't OrCAD EDF (EDIF)files netlist only?

On the old SDT/PCB 386+ stuff, OrCAD schematics are .SCH,
and OrCAD layout are .PCB

 

[Brad Velander]

Yes, Leon is just copying something.
lEON, you had better indicate what files/formats are what or you are
seriously misleading these guys. I don't see one library format that I
recognize despite Leon's comments.

There are several formats in there that are simply netlists (i.e. PADs
*.net & Accel *.net), not the schematics nor PCB files. Next you have the
problem that most nobody saves their files in some of those formats (i.e.
ascii, Protel *.ASC), so down the road you may not be able to readily deal
with them again unless you have some friend with the tools to correctly read
them and write the acceptable format/version files back out to an ascii
file.

Besides the basic information Leon has offered, there is surely
limitations on the actual file versions that it can import. In some cases
they may be well out of date versions. Don't be sure it will import any
current specific format unless the software supplier will guarantee you.
Then get ready to deal with the limitations of the compatibility upon
importing. This is true of even the best imports because most packages have
features or details which are not supported nor correctly converted on
import.

From what I have seen in over 20 years is that almost no package imports
or converts schematic files, it is just not worth the development time. A
schematic can be redrawn in a couple of days once you know your new tool.
PCBs do have converters because that can save you weeks if not months of
time to redevelop the PCB. Then you have to confirm that it is valid and the
same as the original, all big costs.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

"Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote in message
news:ifOdnZ-d4IuHiWLeRVn-qw@rcn.net...

Leon wrote:

FWIW, Pulsonix imports schematic, PCB and library files from:

P-CAD (*.PDF)
Cadstar Schematics (*.CSA)
PADS Logic (*.NET)
P-CAD (*.PDF)
Accel EDA (*.NET)
UltiCAP (*.SCH) Protel (*.ASC) OrCAD (*.EDF)

Aren't OrCAD EDF (EDIF)files netlist only?

On the old SDT/PCB 386+ stuff, OrCAD schematics are .SCH,
and OrCAD layout are .PCB

 

[Leon]

Brad Velander wrote:

Yes, Leon is just copying something.
lEON, you had better indicate what files/formats are what or you are
seriously misleading these guys. I don't see one library format that I
recognize despite Leon's comments.

There are several formats in there that are simply netlists (i.e. PADs
*.net & Accel *.net), not the schematics nor PCB files. Next you have the
problem that most nobody saves their files in some of those formats (i.e.
ascii, Protel *.ASC), so down the road you may not be able to readily deal
with them again unless you have some friend with the tools to correctly read
them and write the acceptable format/version files back out to an ascii
file.

Besides the basic information Leon has offered, there is surely
limitations on the actual file versions that it can import. In some cases
they may be well out of date versions. Don't be sure it will import any
current specific format unless the software supplier will guarantee you.
Then get ready to deal with the limitations of the compatibility upon
importing. This is true of even the best imports because most packages have
features or details which are not supported nor correctly converted on
import.

From what I have seen in over 20 years is that almost no package imports
or converts schematic files, it is just not worth the development time. A
schematic can be redrawn in a couple of days once you know your new tool.
PCBs do have converters because that can save you weeks if not months of
time to redevelop the PCB. Then you have to confirm that it is valid and the
same as the original, all big costs.

Those were schematic ASCII formats. It will also import the same PCB
design formats. I've only used the schematic facility on a few
occasions, but it worked very well. It will also export EDIF
schematics.

Here is the Help entry for Protel files:

"Protel PCB and Schematic designs and Schematic libraries in ASCII
format. Protel PCB footprint libraries can be opened in their Binary
library format.- Versions - Protel 98, Protel 99, Protel 99 SE and
Protel DXP (2002). (Protel DOS and Protel V2.x and 3.x formats are not
supported. Please contact your local sales office to check for
alternative solutions.)
Design types supported are for: Schematics and PCB
Library types supported are for: Schematic Symbols and PCB Footprints,
and Parts libraries"

Pulsonix has all the major packages, and have imported native format
files for me to one of them on a couple of occasions and saved them for
me as ASCII.

Leon

 

[Hal Murray]

It's another thing to ensure that the layout tool can deal with not
only the netlist, but also the component packages. Your schematic
program needs to work with the same libraries as the layout tool. When
you place an OP275 symbol on the schematic, somehow that symbol must
tell the layout program that it needs to use the SOIC-8 package instead
of the DIP-8.

One data point...

Several years ago, I did the schematics for a board and we decided
to have an outside company do the layout. They could read netlists
from our CAD package.

When we were talking to them to setup the deal, the question of
package libraries came up. I handed the guy a stack of printouts
of the package footprints from the data sheets. Smile. Next topic.

Their library had everything we needed. They just needed to know
which part to use. No big deal.

--
The suespammers.org mail server is located in California. So are all my
other mailboxes. Please do not send unsolicited bulk e-mail or unsolicited
commercial e-mail to my suespammers.org address or any of my other addresses.
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.

 

[Lukas Louw]

Brad,

I've had good results opening PCAD/Accel schematics, PCB files and libraries
with a Pulsonix demo. I was pretty impressed - some text rotation and
attributes were not quite correct, but that was about it.

Lukas

Yes, Leon is just copying something.
lEON, you had better indicate what files/formats are what or you are
seriously misleading these guys. I don't see one library format that I
recognize despite Leon's comments.

There are several formats in there that are simply netlists (i.e. PADs
*.net & Accel *.net), not the schematics nor PCB files. Next you have the
problem that most nobody saves their files in some of those formats (i.e.
ascii, Protel *.ASC), so down the road you may not be able to readily deal
with them again unless you have some friend with the tools to correctly
read them and write the acceptable format/version files back out to an
ascii file.

Besides the basic information Leon has offered, there is surely
limitations on the actual file versions that it can import. In some cases
they may be well out of date versions. Don't be sure it will import any
current specific format unless the software supplier will guarantee you.
Then get ready to deal with the limitations of the compatibility upon
importing. This is true of even the best imports because most packages
have features or details which are not supported nor correctly converted
on import.

From what I have seen in over 20 years is that almost no package
imports or converts schematic files, it is just not worth the development
time. A schematic can be redrawn in a couple of days once you know your
new tool. PCBs do have converters because that can save you weeks if not
months of time to redevelop the PCB. Then you have to confirm that it is
valid and the same as the original, all big costs.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

"Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote in message
news:ifOdnZ-d4IuHiWLeRVn-qw@rcn.net...
Leon wrote:

FWIW, Pulsonix imports schematic, PCB and library files from:

P-CAD (*.PDF)
Cadstar Schematics (*.CSA)
PADS Logic (*.NET)
P-CAD (*.PDF)
Accel EDA (*.NET)
UltiCAP (*.SCH) Protel (*.ASC) OrCAD (*.EDF)

Aren't OrCAD EDF (EDIF)files netlist only?

On the old SDT/PCB 386+ stuff, OrCAD schematics are .SCH,
and OrCAD layout are .PCB

 

[Brad Velander]

Leon,
Okay I stand corrected with regards to Pulsonix, I was speaking from my past
experiences with numerous packages and commenting on your list of file
extensions.

--
Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

"Leon" <leon_heller@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1140849558.597778.90990@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...

Brad Velander wrote:
Yes, Leon is just copying something.
lEON, you had better indicate what files/formats are what or you are
seriously misleading these guys. I don't see one library format that I
recognize despite Leon's comments.

There are several formats in there that are simply netlists (i.e.
PADs
*.net & Accel *.net), not the schematics nor PCB files. Next you have the
problem that most nobody saves their files in some of those formats (i.e.
ascii, Protel *.ASC), so down the road you may not be able to readily
deal
with them again unless you have some friend with the tools to correctly
read
them and write the acceptable format/version files back out to an ascii
file.

Besides the basic information Leon has offered, there is surely
limitations on the actual file versions that it can import. In some cases
they may be well out of date versions. Don't be sure it will import any
current specific format unless the software supplier will guarantee you.
Then get ready to deal with the limitations of the compatibility upon
importing. This is true of even the best imports because most packages
have
features or details which are not supported nor correctly converted on
import.

From what I have seen in over 20 years is that almost no package
imports
or converts schematic files, it is just not worth the development time. A
schematic can be redrawn in a couple of days once you know your new tool.
PCBs do have converters because that can save you weeks if not months of
time to redevelop the PCB. Then you have to confirm that it is valid and
the
same as the original, all big costs.


Those were schematic ASCII formats. It will also import the same PCB
design formats. I've only used the schematic facility on a few
occasions, but it worked very well. It will also export EDIF
schematics.

Here is the Help entry for Protel files:

"Protel PCB and Schematic designs and Schematic libraries in ASCII
format. Protel PCB footprint libraries can be opened in their Binary
library format.- Versions - Protel 98, Protel 99, Protel 99 SE and
Protel DXP (2002). (Protel DOS and Protel V2.x and 3.x formats are not
supported. Please contact your local sales office to check for
alternative solutions.)
Design types supported are for: Schematics and PCB
Library types supported are for: Schematic Symbols and PCB Footprints,
and Parts libraries"

Pulsonix has all the major packages, and have imported native format
files for me to one of them on a couple of occasions and saved them for
me as ASCII.

Leon

 

[Joel Kolstad]

"Brad Velander" <bveland@SpamThis.com> wrote in message
news:fp9Mf.72396$B94.50737@pd7tw3no...

Okay I stand corrected with regards to Pulsonix, I was speaking from my past
experiences with numerous packages and commenting on your list of file
extensions.

FYI, Pulsonix can also save to ORCAD schematic format, although at the moment
the feature is kinda in a "beta" stage where it doesn't work completely
correctly. I expect they'll improve this feature in the future...

 

[JeffM]

They could read netlists from our CAD package.
Their library had everything we needed.
Hal Murray

Without the names of the packages, your post is worthless.

 

[Ken Smith]

In article <1140721751.658251.86680@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Andy Peters <Bassman59a@yahoo.com> wrote:
[..getting the packages right..]

Basically, you'll have to use the schematic capture program that goes
with your contractor's layout program. If they use PADS, you'll need
PADS.

This is basically false.

I use the old Orcad for DOS and it makes Pads2K netlists complete with
correct package information. I doubt that there are any serious CAD
programs that can't make a net list that has the needed package
information in it.

--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

 

[Ken Smith]

In article <h8GdnR3BW_yptJ3ZRVn-vw@megapath.net>,
Hal Murray <hmurray@suespammers.org> wrote:
[...]

When we were talking to them to setup the deal, the question of
package libraries came up. I handed the guy a stack of printouts
of the package footprints from the data sheets. Smile. Next topic.

That has been my experience with contract layout houses too. They will
take input in nearly any reasonable form. If they've been in business for
any time, chances are they have a large library of netlist conversion
programs. Even today, they will likely have people on staff that can hand
create a netlist from a paper schematic.

You should, however, expect to pay for everything they have to do to make
your PCB.

--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge