building microwind and microhydro generators

D

Dominic-Luc Webb

Guest
Looking for some tips on homemade microwind and
microhydro generators.

I have a site near the top of a mountain far from any
power utilities. It is intended for camping trips and
will end up with either a quite small cabin or
small motorhome. It is hard to predict what my power
needs will be, but much less than a typical home. I
am guessing 1-10 kW*hr generation is my goal with
intermittant use, like only on weekends.

The wind can be very strong, but variable. There is
a creek running through the property. I am told the
flow is 144 miner's inches per second, and that this
is roughly 1 cubic foot per second.

Here are some questions:

1. My understanding is that an induction generator
would be a good choice as long as I make sure I build
up sufficient RPM. Assuming I have access to junk and
scrap yards, what is a good source?

2. Assuming induction generator is good choice, are
planetary gear or belt drive arrangements used with
these to maintain high RPM?

3. Assuming total electric need is not great, I have
heard of using water pumps. Anyone know if the pump
from an old washer machine would work? Seems to me
that in their usual config, they pump a lot of water,
so I wonder if running water through this would generate
enough current to charge, for instance, a couple marine
batteries. I do not have sufficient specs handy to make
a sane guess.

4. As for the wind generator, are the powerful neodymium
magnetics found in hardware stores a good choice?

5. Schematics? Anyone know websites with reliable
instructions on how to build either of these from
scratch on a micro scale?

Dominic
 
I should maybe add to this that as regards the microhydro,
I would really like to find out about the the most eco
friendly method since this site is otherwise pristine.

Dominic
 
In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0812291447020.27859-100000@uno.canit.se>,
Dominic-Luc Webb <dlwebb@canit.se> wrote:

Looking for some tips on homemade microwind and
microhydro generators.
Click to expand...
Lord knows where you are getting your info now, (induction generators
make no sense off grid) but try

http://www.otherpower.com

Lots of useful info, especially if you take the time to read through
"the old stuff" (what they used to do) and learn from what they have
changed after experience, rather than re-inventing the wheel yourself.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
 
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Ecnerwal wrote:

In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0812291447020.27859-100000@uno.canit.se>,
Dominic-Luc Webb <dlwebb@canit.se> wrote:

Looking for some tips on homemade microwind and
microhydro generators.

Lord knows where you are getting your info now, (induction generators
make no sense off grid) but try
Click to expand...
Wikipedi, amongst others. My understanding is that it is
convenient way to get a stable AC frequency.


http://www.otherpower.com
Click to expand...
Thanks!

Dominic
 
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:13:37 +0100, Dominic-Luc Webb <dlwebb@canit.se>
wrote:

Looking for some tips on homemade microwind and
microhydro generators.

I have a site near the top of a mountain far from any
power utilities. It is intended for camping trips and
will end up with either a quite small cabin or
small motorhome. It is hard to predict what my power
needs will be, but much less than a typical home. I
am guessing 1-10 kW*hr generation is my goal with
intermittant use, like only on weekends.

The wind can be very strong, but variable. There is
a creek running through the property. I am told the
flow is 144 miner's inches per second, and that this
is roughly 1 cubic foot per second.

Here are some questions:

1. My understanding is that an induction generator
would be a good choice as long as I make sure I build
up sufficient RPM. Assuming I have access to junk and
scrap yards, what is a good source?

2. Assuming induction generator is good choice, are
planetary gear or belt drive arrangements used with
these to maintain high RPM?

3. Assuming total electric need is not great, I have
heard of using water pumps. Anyone know if the pump
from an old washer machine would work? Seems to me
that in their usual config, they pump a lot of water,
so I wonder if running water through this would generate
enough current to charge, for instance, a couple marine
batteries. I do not have sufficient specs handy to make
a sane guess.

4. As for the wind generator, are the powerful neodymium
magnetics found in hardware stores a good choice?

5. Schematics? Anyone know websites with reliable
instructions on how to build either of these from
scratch on a micro scale?

Dominic
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure that neither are feasible, certainly at the 1 KW power
level.

You can calculate the power possible from 1 cf/sec water flow, but you
have to know the head (pressure) available. I knew a guy who had a
stream on a hillside; he built a small dam uphill and ran a pipe from
there down to his house, diverting part of the stream's flow, and ran
a pump backwards, spinning an alternator. He had over 200 feet of
vertical drop, so got close to 100 psi pressure to work with. I don't
think it was worth the effort, and you'd probably have to divert your
entire stream to get useful output. Figure under 50% efficiency for a
good water-wheel and a good generator, much less if you use makeshift
stuff.

If you can't do the calculations, I wouldn't attempt the project.


Pack in propane.

John
 
John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:13:37 +0100, Dominic-Luc Webb <dlwebb@canit.se
wrote:


Looking for some tips on homemade microwind and
microhydro generators.

I have a site near the top of a mountain far from any
power utilities. It is intended for camping trips and
will end up with either a quite small cabin or
small motorhome. It is hard to predict what my power
needs will be, but much less than a typical home. I
am guessing 1-10 kW*hr generation is my goal with
intermittant use, like only on weekends.

The wind can be very strong, but variable. There is
a creek running through the property. I am told the
flow is 144 miner's inches per second, and that this
is roughly 1 cubic foot per second.

Here are some questions:

1. My understanding is that an induction generator
would be a good choice as long as I make sure I build
up sufficient RPM. Assuming I have access to junk and
scrap yards, what is a good source?

2. Assuming induction generator is good choice, are
planetary gear or belt drive arrangements used with
these to maintain high RPM?

3. Assuming total electric need is not great, I have
heard of using water pumps. Anyone know if the pump
from an old washer machine would work? Seems to me
that in their usual config, they pump a lot of water,
so I wonder if running water through this would generate
enough current to charge, for instance, a couple marine
batteries. I do not have sufficient specs handy to make
a sane guess.

4. As for the wind generator, are the powerful neodymium
magnetics found in hardware stores a good choice?

5. Schematics? Anyone know websites with reliable
instructions on how to build either of these from
scratch on a micro scale?

Dominic


I'm pretty sure that neither are feasible, certainly at the 1 KW power
level.

You can calculate the power possible from 1 cf/sec water flow, but you
have to know the head (pressure) available. I knew a guy who had a
stream on a hillside; he built a small dam uphill and ran a pipe from
there down to his house, diverting part of the stream's flow, and ran
a pump backwards, spinning an alternator. He had over 200 feet of
vertical drop, so got close to 100 psi pressure to work with. I don't
think it was worth the effort, and you'd probably have to divert your
entire stream to get useful output. Figure under 50% efficiency for a
good water-wheel and a good generator, much less if you use makeshift
stuff.

If you can't do the calculations, I wouldn't attempt the project.

Pack in propane.

John
Click to expand...

Someone is finally selling fuel cells. What a joke. :)

http://www.powerstream.com/methanol-fuel-cell.htm


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.
 
Dominic-Luc Webb wrote:
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Ecnerwal wrote:

In article <Pine.LNX.4.44.0812291447020.27859-100000@uno.canit.se>,
Dominic-Luc Webb <dlwebb@canit.se> wrote:

Looking for some tips on homemade microwind and
microhydro generators.
Lord knows where you are getting your info now, (induction generators
make no sense off grid) but try

Wikipedi, amongst others. My understanding is that it is
convenient way to get a stable AC frequency.

No. An induction machine is an easy way to put power onto the grid _at
Click to expand...
the grid's frequency_ without having to either mechanically or
electrically synchronize your generator.

Off grid, an induction machine would require some pretty fancy
electronics to impose a "grid like" voltage for the generator to work
against.
http://www.otherpower.com

My first guess at a quick & dirty generator would be a car alternator,
Click to expand...
at least if you just want 12VDC from lead-acid batteries. It's very
best feature is that if you pick one that's common then replacement
parts can be found at the nearest junkyard (or the nearest neighbor with
the right vehicle, if you're not terribly scrupulous).

But I've never done this, so do check what people are really using.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
 
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:58:23 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:13:37 +0100, Dominic-Luc Webb <dlwebb@canit.se
wrote:


Looking for some tips on homemade microwind and
microhydro generators.

I have a site near the top of a mountain far from any
power utilities. It is intended for camping trips and
will end up with either a quite small cabin or
small motorhome. It is hard to predict what my power
needs will be, but much less than a typical home. I
am guessing 1-10 kW*hr generation is my goal with
intermittant use, like only on weekends.

The wind can be very strong, but variable. There is
a creek running through the property. I am told the
flow is 144 miner's inches per second, and that this
is roughly 1 cubic foot per second.

Here are some questions:

1. My understanding is that an induction generator
would be a good choice as long as I make sure I build
up sufficient RPM. Assuming I have access to junk and
scrap yards, what is a good source?

2. Assuming induction generator is good choice, are
planetary gear or belt drive arrangements used with
these to maintain high RPM?

3. Assuming total electric need is not great, I have
heard of using water pumps. Anyone know if the pump
from an old washer machine would work? Seems to me
that in their usual config, they pump a lot of water,
so I wonder if running water through this would generate
enough current to charge, for instance, a couple marine
batteries. I do not have sufficient specs handy to make
a sane guess.

4. As for the wind generator, are the powerful neodymium
magnetics found in hardware stores a good choice?

5. Schematics? Anyone know websites with reliable
instructions on how to build either of these from
scratch on a micro scale?

Dominic


I'm pretty sure that neither are feasible, certainly at the 1 KW power
level.

You can calculate the power possible from 1 cf/sec water flow, but you
have to know the head (pressure) available. I knew a guy who had a
stream on a hillside; he built a small dam uphill and ran a pipe from
there down to his house, diverting part of the stream's flow, and ran
a pump backwards, spinning an alternator. He had over 200 feet of
vertical drop, so got close to 100 psi pressure to work with. I don't
think it was worth the effort, and you'd probably have to divert your
entire stream to get useful output. Figure under 50% efficiency for a
good water-wheel and a good generator, much less if you use makeshift
stuff.

If you can't do the calculations, I wouldn't attempt the project.

Pack in propane.

John


Someone is finally selling fuel cells. What a joke. :)

http://www.powerstream.com/methanol-fuel-cell.htm
Click to expand...
That's nothing new. Fuel cells have been a joke for 50 years at least.

John
 
John Larkin wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Someone is finally selling fuel cells. What a joke. :)

http://www.powerstream.com/methanol-fuel-cell.htm

That's nothing new. Fuel cells have been a joke for 50 years at least.
Click to expand...

To offer a $5000 unit that barely produces 25 watts, along with
replacement laptop power supplies they are too small to power is kind of
funny. :)


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.
 
Dominic-Luc Webb wrote:

Looking for some tips on homemade microwind and
microhydro generators.
Click to expand...
Try the energy groups, esp alt.energy.homepower

This one's well considered btw.
http://www.scoraigwind.com/

Graham
 
Dominic-Luc Webb wrote:

I should maybe add to this that as regards the microhydro,
I would really like to find out about the the most eco
friendly method since this site is otherwise pristine.
Click to expand...
Define 'eco friendly' !

In one energy group there's a poster who has made his own microhydro
using a Pelton Wheel method. He posts often. Look in the archives.
As well as the homepower group look at alt.energy.reneweable.

Beware of the 'free power' overunity cranks around esp in sci.energy.

Graham
 
Tim Wescott wrote:

My first guess at a quick & dirty generator would be a car alternator,
at least if you just want 12VDC from lead-acid batteries. It's very
best feature is that if you pick one that's common then replacement
parts can be found at the nearest junkyard (or the nearest neighbor with
the right vehicle, if you're not terribly scrupulous).
Click to expand...
They're pretty inefficient. Permament magnet alternators can do much better.

Graham
 
John Larkin wrote:

If you can't do the calculations, I wouldn't attempt the project.
Click to expand...
100% agreed. Beware the shysters selling garbage too.

Graham
 
John Larkin wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Someone is finally selling fuel cells. What a joke. :)

http://www.powerstream.com/methanol-fuel-cell.htm

That's nothing new. Fuel cells have been a joke for 50 years at least.
Click to expand...
Never mind the 'hydrogen economy'. Sadly most greens and politicians have no
brains, so they think it's the greatest 'new thing'.

Graham
 
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:12:08 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Someone is finally selling fuel cells. What a joke. :)

http://www.powerstream.com/methanol-fuel-cell.htm

That's nothing new. Fuel cells have been a joke for 50 years at least.


To offer a $5000 unit that barely produces 25 watts, along with
replacement laptop power supplies they are too small to power is kind of
funny. :)
Click to expand...
Imagine running a methanol fuel cell near electronics. Or stashing one
in a briefcase.

John
 
John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:12:08 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:


John Larkin wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Someone is finally selling fuel cells. What a joke. :)

http://www.powerstream.com/methanol-fuel-cell.htm

That's nothing new. Fuel cells have been a joke for 50 years at least.


To offer a $5000 unit that barely produces 25 watts, along with
replacement laptop power supplies they are too small to power is kind of
funny. :)

Imagine running a methanol fuel cell near electronics. Or stashing one
in a briefcase.
Click to expand...

Imagine trying to get it and the fuel past the TSA.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.
 
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, John Larkin wrote:

I'm pretty sure that neither are feasible, certainly at the 1 KW power
level.

You can calculate the power possible from 1 cf/sec water flow, but you
have to know the head (pressure) available. I knew a guy who had a
stream on a hillside; he built a small dam uphill and ran a pipe from
there down to his house, diverting part of the stream's flow, and ran
a pump backwards, spinning an alternator. He had over 200 feet of
vertical drop, so got close to 100 psi pressure to work with. I don't
think it was worth the effort, and you'd probably have to divert your
entire stream to get useful output. Figure under 50% efficiency for a
good water-wheel and a good generator, much less if you use makeshift
stuff.

If you can't do the calculations, I wouldn't attempt the project.

John
Click to expand...

Thanks for ideas. I am quite able to do some math, but need
to get some tips on reasoning this correctly. My friend now
tells me that he made a mistake and the flow is more like
100 liter/s. I do not think we can realistically get that
level of vertical drop you mention.

Dominic
 
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Eeyore wrote:

Try the energy groups, esp alt.energy.homepower

This one's well considered btw.
http://www.scoraigwind.com/

Graham
Click to expand...
Thanks!

Dominic
 
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Eeyore wrote:

Dominic-Luc Webb wrote:

I should maybe add to this that as regards the microhydro,
I would really like to find out about the the most eco
friendly method since this site is otherwise pristine.

Define 'eco friendly' !
Graham
Click to expand...
I am not yet sure what is and is not eco friendly, but
I am not going to dig up the entire area. Ideally,
when I leave this world, the generator can disappear
without a trace of having been there. This can be
done with a wind generator.

Dominic
 
http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/micro-hydro-power-pros-and-cons/

"Dominic-Luc Webb" <dlwebb@canit.se> wrote in message
news:pine.LNX.4.44.0812301923270.4758-100000@uno.canit.se...
On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Eeyore wrote:

Try the energy groups, esp alt.energy.homepower

This one's well considered btw.
http://www.scoraigwind.com/

Graham

Thanks!

Dominic
Click to expand...
 
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