Both caps blew! Why?

My compressor wouldn't start this morning. So I figured it might be a
bad starting cap. But both caps had blown. All the guts right out of
the ends. Could it be that one cap blew first and then the other cap
failed because of the extra work it had to do?
Thanks,
Eric

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <cimukdd379c0u1f6drl04036upm32qglv5@4ax.com>,
etpm@whidbey.com says...

My compressor wouldn't start this morning. So I figured it might be a
bad starting cap. But both caps had blown. All the guts right out of
the ends. Could it be that one cap blew first and then the other cap
failed because of the extra work it had to do?
Thanks,
Eric

Could be.

Did you have any lightning due to stormes in the ares from the last time
you used it ?

 

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:19:18 -0400, Ralph Mowery
<rmowery28146@earthlink.net> wrote:

In article <cimukdd379c0u1f6drl04036upm32qglv5@4ax.com>,
etpm@whidbey.com says...

My compressor wouldn't start this morning. So I figured it might be a
bad starting cap. But both caps had blown. All the guts right out of
the ends. Could it be that one cap blew first and then the other cap
failed because of the extra work it had to do?
Thanks,
Eric



Could be.

Did you have any lightning due to stormes in the ares from the last time
you used it ?

No lightning. It worked fine yesterday and this morning wouldn't
start. The compressor is outside so I wouldn't be able to hear when
the caps blew. So I don't know if they both blew at the same time or
if one blew and then the other. The caps are 115 volt caps and the
motor is 220 volts so each cap must be connected to one hot and the
neutral. Which makes me think that the motor may have been running on
just one cap for at least a little while. Maybe just yesterday. I
don't know how old the caps are but I have had the compressor for 4
years and I bought it used.
Eric

 

Are you sure they're start caps ? Some 3 phase motors can be run with a cap connected the right way, those are run caps. What I have seen is they are usually rated double the input voltage, like if it is 220 the caps are 440.

Per your other thread, if they were 115 volts and in series you had like 200 uF, not ridiculous. High, but plausible. Even then the voltage rating is not high enough. If in parallel then you had like 1,000 uF which is very high, is this like a 5 HP or something ? In any case a 115 V cap will not take the voltage.

 

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 16:39:47 -0700 (PDT), jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

Are you sure they're start caps ? Some 3 phase motors can be run with a cap connected the right way, those are run caps. What I have seen is they are usually rated double the input voltage, like if it is 220 the caps are 440.

Per your other thread, if they were 115 volts and in series you had like 200 uF, not ridiculous. High, but plausible. Even then the voltage rating is not high enough. If in parallel then you had like 1,000 uF which is very high, is this like a 5 HP or something ? In any case a 115 V cap will not take the voltage.

In my other post I corrected myself. The caps were wired in parallel.
So the total capacitance is around 1000 MFD. Just for fun I tried a
200 MFD cap and it would not start the motor. The motor would just
barely start rotating but I could tell it wasn't gonna come up to
speed before something got too hot. What happens if the capacitance is
too high? I think the phase will just get shifted too much which may
cause hard starting. On the other hand I seem to remember that the
starting cap doesn't just help with phase shift it also provides extra
energy for starting so maybe extra capacitance isn't all that bad. I
don't remember but would like to know.
Eric

 

A start cap is only in circuit during startup, it is switched out usually by centrifugal switch once a certain RPM is reached. Such a motor usually has more starting torque, but the cap is not right for efficient running.

A run cap is in the circuit all the time, and its value is important to efficiency and even running. If you take a run cap out of the circuit the motor will slow and slow and eventually stall under the load of the backpressure of the Freon. If you remove a start cap it can run forever but not start again.

Only larger systems use a start cap these days, and even 40 years ago. Got to remember this is 2018 and 40 years ago was 1978. Maybe more did back then but probably not unless it is like a 5 ton unit or bigger. (5 tons is 60,000 BTU) Is it that big ?

To find out, disconnect the cap while it is running. Use the one hand rule and insulated pliers, usually they have spade lugs and are not hard to pull off. Another way is that there will be no voltage across a start cap once it starts, but a run cap always has voltage across it. And put your meter on the 1,000 volt AC range.

But first you need the cap. Price them and see what kind of deal you can get on like a "set". Couple of 100s, 200s and 50s. Total that gives you 650. If the original even really is 1,000 that should at least started unless it has head pressure. (when the Freon is high pressure at the outlet and low pressure at the inlet)

I don't know the color comes for the wires, someone who does might but they won't work for free. You get into those things and you might have different voltages and maybe even speeds. Furnace blower motors have a gang of wires, and they are nowhere near a compressor motor.

Now, if you find it to be a run capacitor, somehow figure out how to measure current draw. Clampon ammeters are not expensive anymore, get the elcheapo Chinese kind. You have all these caps, and the optimum one will be the one that results in the lowest current drain. If with all of them in circuit the draw is lowest, go get like a 750. Then fine tune that. Keep throwing more and ore on there until the draw starts to go up. Once it gets past its peak back off. Well not peak but minimum. When you find the lowest current draw you have found the optimum cap value.

I don't now where you are but I am in the US and the last time I got motor caps it was from WW Grainger. If you have ANY company name, use it, the price changes. Five caps might be $ 20 each, that's a Cnote. If you get them cheaper it matters. Just remember they should be 440 VAC rated. Whoever put those 115 VAC caps in there should be flipping burgers.

Need to know if it is a run or start cap. If it is a start cap forget all I wrote. But I really think it is a run cap.

 

[Stephen Wolstenholme]

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 08:20:57 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

My compressor wouldn't start this morning. So I figured it might be a
bad starting cap. But both caps had blown. All the guts right out of
the ends. Could it be that one cap blew first and then the other cap
failed because of the extra work it had to do?
Thanks,
Eric

Did they fail at the same time? Some motors will start with one
capacitor and don't fail until the last one blows. Years ago I had a
job mending psus that had four electrolytic capacitors in parallel
they worked until the last one failed.

Steve
--
http://www.npsnn.com

 

[Terry Schwartz]

On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 10:21:22 AM UTC-5, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

My compressor wouldn't start this morning. So I figured it might be a
bad starting cap. But both caps had blown. All the guts right out of
the ends. Could it be that one cap blew first and then the other cap
failed because of the extra work it had to do?
Thanks,
Eric

The caps blew because they are decades old, in a high stress application. Once the first one blew the second was way overstressed. AC rated caps are tenuous beasts to begin with. My cousin in the HVAC business says compressor caps should be replaced every 5 years....

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <115415f9-6239-409d-804a-71529c257af6@googlegroups.com>,
tschw10117@aol.com says...

The caps blew because they are decades old, in a high stress application. Once the first one blew the second was way overstressed. AC rated caps are tenuous beasts to begin with. My cousin in the HVAC business says compressor caps should be replaced every 5 years....

I don't doubt that 5 year number for them. I had one to go out after
about that ammount of time on my heat pump. A repair man replaced it
and it took him about 15 minuits to find the problem and replace it for
a cost of about $ 300. I bought one off ebay for less than $ 20. After
about 5 years the capacitor went bad , so I replaced it myself and
ordered another one for about $ 20 to keep as a spare.

He also told me of a relay that often goes bad, so I bought one of
those as a spare for about $ 20. Sofar it has not needed replacing.

If replacing the capacitor , try to stay within the capacitance
range,but you can go to a higher voltage rating. Get one rated for 440
volts if possiable. Also look at the temperature rating. While many
are around 85 deg C see if you can find one rated for about 105 deg C.
Those usually last longer.

 

>"My cousin in the HVAC business says compressor caps should be replaced every 5 years.... "

I had to replace ours a few years ago and the electric bill went down.

 

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 19:52:29 -0700 (PDT), jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

A start cap is only in circuit during startup, it is switched out usually by centrifugal switch once a certain RPM is reached. Such a motor usually has more starting torque, but the cap is not right for efficient running.

A run cap is in the circuit all the time, and its value is important to efficiency and even running. If you take a run cap out of the circuit the motor will slow and slow and eventually stall under the load of the backpressure of the Freon. If you remove a start cap it can run forever but not start again.

Only larger systems use a start cap these days, and even 40 years ago. Got to remember this is 2018 and 40 years ago was 1978. Maybe more did back then but probably not unless it is like a 5 ton unit or bigger. (5 tons is 60,000 BTU) Is it that big ?

To find out, disconnect the cap while it is running. Use the one hand rule and insulated pliers, usually they have spade lugs and are not hard to pull off. Another way is that there will be no voltage across a start cap once it starts, but a run cap always has voltage across it. And put your meter on the 1,000 volt AC range.

But first you need the cap. Price them and see what kind of deal you can get on like a "set". Couple of 100s, 200s and 50s. Total that gives you 650. If the original even really is 1,000 that should at least started unless it has head pressure. (when the Freon is high pressure at the outlet and low pressure at the inlet)

I don't know the color comes for the wires, someone who does might but they won't work for free. You get into those things and you might have different voltages and maybe even speeds. Furnace blower motors have a gang of wires, and they are nowhere near a compressor motor.

Now, if you find it to be a run capacitor, somehow figure out how to measure current draw. Clampon ammeters are not expensive anymore, get the elcheapo Chinese kind. You have all these caps, and the optimum one will be the one that results in the lowest current drain. If with all of them in circuit the draw is lowest, go get like a 750. Then fine tune that. Keep throwing more and ore on there until the draw starts to go up. Once it gets past its peak back off. Well not peak but minimum. When you find the lowest current draw you have found the optimum cap value.

I don't now where you are but I am in the US and the last time I got motor caps it was from WW Grainger. If you have ANY company name, use it, the price changes. Five caps might be $ 20 each, that's a Cnote. If you get them cheaper it matters. Just remember they should be 440 VAC rated. Whoever put those 115 VAC caps in there should be flipping burgers.

Need to know if it is a run or start cap. If it is a start cap forget all I wrote. But I really think it is a run cap.

Actually the proper caps are 115 volt caps. Seems weird on a 220 volt
motor but if you look at a wiring diagram for a dual voltage, 110/220
volt capacitor start motor you will see why. The caps only ever see
110 volts. It turns out that the capacitance is so high because the
motor is meant for starting high torque loads, like an air compressor,
which is what it doing. Since Grainger paired this compressor and
motor I guess they knew what they were doing.
Eric

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <4734ld908c6tlrk7kdftjldsfqoorfkhtr@4ax.com>,
etpm@whidbey.com says...

Actually the proper caps are 115 volt caps. Seems weird on a 220 volt
motor but if you look at a wiring diagram for a dual voltage, 110/220
volt capacitor start motor you will see why. The caps only ever see
110 volts. It turns out that the capacitance is so high because the
motor is meant for starting high torque loads, like an air compressor,
which is what it doing. Since Grainger paired this compressor and
motor I guess they knew what they were doing.
Eric

As the voltage is usually over 120 volts ( at least here at my house I
monitor the voltage and it seems to run from 119 to 124) much of the
time seems the 115 volt capacitor is slightly low now. Most of the
places I see recommend replacing the capacitors on the 240 volt motors
with some around 400 volts, but those are the run capacitors.

 

>"Actually the proper caps are 115 volt caps."

AHA ! I don't know why but I thought you meant a compressor for a central air condensing unit. Some people call that the "compressor".

So, I stand corrected.

In a condensing unit it won't start when there's backpressure, it'll kick out on overload a few times until the pressure bleeds off. In fact some newer electronic thermostats have a delay so it won't even try to start right away say if it just turned off and you reset the temperature, it will wait a few minutes. An AIR compressor now, well I can see my mistake. If you have it set to 100 PSI it will start with over 90 PSI loading it so a cap run type motor won't cut it.

Glad you got it figured out.

 

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:14:07 -0700 (PDT), jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

"Actually the proper caps are 115 volt caps."

AHA ! I don't know why but I thought you meant a compressor for a central air condensing unit. Some people call that the "compressor".

So, I stand corrected.

In a condensing unit it won't start when there's backpressure, it'll kick out on overload a few times until the pressure bleeds off. In fact some newer electronic thermostats have a delay so it won't even try to start right away say if it just turned off and you reset the temperature, it will wait a few minutes. An AIR compressor now, well I can see my mistake. If you have it set to 100 PSI it will start with over 90 PSI loading it so a cap run type motor won't cut it.

Glad you got it figured out.

The compressor has an unloader so that there is no pressure in the
cylinders when it first starts spinning. But of course as you said as
soon as it delivers air into the receiver it is pushing air into 90
PSI. I am still a little amazed by the large value caps though.
Eric

 

"I am still a little amazed by the large value caps though.
Eric "

Me too. Just now many HP is that thing ?

 

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:57:23 -0700 (PDT), jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

"I am still a little amazed by the large value caps though.
Eric "

Me too. Just now many HP is that thing ?
Three HP.