Black and While programs on Color Tv

Guest
How come some of the old B&W programs on the "Oldies Channel"
(THIS-TV) are black and white, while others are tinted, usually black
and greenish white. Yes, the color programs are accurately colored,
so it's not that the tv colors are off, and some B&W programs are
actually correct. Is this in the film or is the tv transmitter wrong?
 
How come some of the old B&W programs on the "Oldies Channel"
(THIS-TV) are black and white, while others are tinted, usually black
and greenish white? Yes, the color programs are accurately colored,
so it's not that the TV colors are off, and some B&W programs are
actually correct. Is this in the film or is the tv transmitter wrong?
Click to expand...
Filmed B&W programs are often transferred with a color camera or telecine
and transmitted as a color signal. The transfer equipment might not be set
up correctly.

It's also possible your TV's tracking is off, but you say some B&W programs
look okay, so that's not likely.

I occasionally watch this, and haven't noticed any unusual color casts in
B&W shows ("Bat Masterson", "Sea Hunt", etc).

I've noticed something similar on Blu-rays, both color and B&W. Scenes
appearing in the supplemental material have a different color balance or
cast, even though they're presumably derived from the same source. "North by
Northwest" and "Young Frankenstein" are good examples.
 
On Tue, 05 Apr 2011 05:09:24 -0500, JoseGomez@dotcom.com wrote:
How come some of the old B&W programs on the "Oldies Channel"
(THIS-TV) are black and white, while others are tinted, usually black
and greenish white. Yes, the color programs are accurately colored,
so it's not that the tv colors are off, and some B&W programs are
actually correct. Is this in the film or is the tv transmitter wrong?
Click to expand...
Could it be that these are programs/movies that were 'colorized' in the
very early days of that process -- which rendered ghastly results IMO,
and which have simply never been re-colorized with new techniques?

Jonesy
 
On Tue, 05 Apr 2011 05:09:24 -0500, JoseGomez@dotcom.com wrote:

How come some of the old B&W programs on the "Oldies Channel"
(THIS-TV) are black and white, while others are tinted, usually black
and greenish white. Yes, the color programs are accurately colored,
so it's not that the tv colors are off, and some B&W programs are
actually correct. Is this in the film or is the tv transmitter wrong?

Could it be that these are programs/movies that were 'colorized' in the
very early days of that process -- which rendered ghastly results IMO,
and which have simply never been re-colorized with new techniques?
Click to expand...
No. No one would colorize an entire TV series, as the cost would be
outrageous.

The newer computer-controlled colorizings are excellent.
 
JoseGomez@dotcom.com wrote:
How come some of the old B&W programs on the "Oldies Channel"
(THIS-TV) are black and white, while others are tinted, usually black
and greenish white. Yes, the color programs are accurately colored,
so it's not that the tv colors are off, and some B&W programs are
actually correct. Is this in the film or is the tv transmitter wrong?
Click to expand...

Neither. The color burst has to be turned off for B&W programming,
so the color killer circuit doesn't create artifacts. Stations used to
be very careful about this, but over the years some just don't bother
anymore.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
 
William Sommerwerck wrote:
How come some of the old B&W programs on the "Oldies Channel"
(THIS-TV) are black and white, while others are tinted, usually black
and greenish white? Yes, the color programs are accurately colored,
so it's not that the TV colors are off, and some B&W programs are
actually correct. Is this in the film or is the tv transmitter wrong?

Filmed B&W programs are often transferred with a color camera or telecine
and transmitted as a color signal. The transfer equipment might not be set
up correctly.

It's also possible your TV's tracking is off, but you say some B&W programs
look okay, so that's not likely.

I occasionally watch this, and haven't noticed any unusual color casts in
B&W shows ("Bat Masterson", "Sea Hunt", etc).

I've noticed something similar on Blu-rays, both color and B&W. Scenes
appearing in the supplemental material have a different color balance or
cast, even though they're presumably derived from the same source. "North by
Northwest" and "Young Frankenstein" are good examples.
Click to expand...
Also an artifact of NTSC - Never The Same Colour -

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
 
Also an artifact of NTSC -- Never The Same Colour
Click to expand...
Not true. NTSC is neither inherently inaccurate or unstable.

In any case, I think this is digital, and doesn't used NTSC encoding.
 
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:infp1h$k9v$1@dont-email.me...
Also an artifact of NTSC -- Never The Same Colour

Not true. NTSC is neither inherently inaccurate or unstable.
Click to expand...

The UK PAL (Phase Alternate Line) inverts the subcarrier phase on alternate
lines so phase distortion during transmission cancells itself out - NTSC
doesn't and is inherently prone to drift, hence it was dubbed; Never Twice
the Same Colour.

Aparently the US military incorporated a swinging phase error in their GPS
satelites to stop all and sundry using it without the decoding key - it was
a British engineer that cracked it using a technique based on PAL
technology.
 
article <rfqlp6htd9l3135fk6a47rtfd56d05hng1@4ax.com>,
JoseGomez@dotcom.com says...
How come some of the old B&W programs on the "Oldies Channel"
(THIS-TV) are black and white, while others are tinted, usually black
and greenish white. Yes, the color programs are accurately colored,
so it's not that the tv colors are off, and some B&W programs are
actually correct. Is this in the film or is the tv transmitter wrong?
Click to expand...
It may be the source material, too. These days, most everything is
digital, even what the stations play from probably comes off of a
computer.

You don't mention where you are. ThisTV is from Weigel Communications,
which is based in Chicago and broadcasts on WCIU (ThisTV is 26.5). One
of the technicians (hvs10trk) is a regular on this forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=815397

--
If there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying!
All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the
law!!
http://home.comcast.net/~andyross
 
Also an artifact of NTSC -- Never The Same Colour

Not true. NTSC is neither inherently inaccurate or unstable.

The UK PAL (Phase Alternate Line) inverts the subcarrier phase
on alternate lines so phase distortion during transmission cancels
itself out - NTSC doesn't and is inherently prone to drift, hence it
was dubbed; Never Twice the Same Colour.
Click to expand...
Drift of /what/? I've wasted many hours explaining why NTSC is, overall,
better than PAL.

The US video distribution system never had much trouble with phase errors.
European systems did.
 
John Robertson wrote:
William Sommerwerck wrote:
How come some of the old B&W programs on the "Oldies Channel"
(THIS-TV) are black and white, while others are tinted, usually black
and greenish white? Yes, the color programs are accurately colored,
so it's not that the TV colors are off, and some B&W programs are
actually correct. Is this in the film or is the tv transmitter wrong?

Filmed B&W programs are often transferred with a color camera or telecine
and transmitted as a color signal. The transfer equipment might not be set
up correctly.

It's also possible your TV's tracking is off, but you say some B&W programs
look okay, so that's not likely.

I occasionally watch this, and haven't noticed any unusual color casts in
B&W shows ("Bat Masterson", "Sea Hunt", etc).

I've noticed something similar on Blu-rays, both color and B&W. Scenes
appearing in the supplemental material have a different color balance or
cast, even though they're presumably derived from the same source. "North by
Northwest" and "Young Frankenstein" are good examples.



Also an artifact of NTSC - Never The Same Colour -
Click to expand...

Sigh. The NTSC was created for B&W television.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
 
In article <KFLmp.2976$9h6.2210@newsfe02.ams2>,
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:infp1h$k9v$1@dont-email.me...
Also an artifact of NTSC -- Never The Same Colour

Not true. NTSC is neither inherently inaccurate or unstable.


The UK PAL (Phase Alternate Line) inverts the subcarrier phase on alternate
lines so phase distortion during transmission cancells itself out - NTSC
doesn't and is inherently prone to drift, hence it was dubbed; Never Twice
the Same Colour.
Click to expand...
But they traded color drift for high-brightness ficker; not necessarily
a good choice, since the early color drift of NTSC, being due to
equipment instabilities, was soon fixed by better gear, while PAL's
flicker problem, having been designed in, persisted.

Isaac
 
Ian Field wrote:
Aparently the US military incorporated a swinging phase error in their GPS
satelites to stop all and sundry using it without the decoding key - it was
a British engineer that cracked it using a technique based on PAL
technology.
Click to expand...
Note quite. The GPS system did have the higher resolution data encrypted.
There were several systems to improve accuracy without the keys, such as
broadcasting it on FM radio subcarriers, differential units (multiple
antennas) and so on.

During operation Desert Storm (aka the First Gulf War), there were not enough
millitary GPS units to go around so President Clinton ordered the encryption
turned off.

It has stayed off except in a few limited areas, such as a small portion of
the area between Cuba and the US.

That's why there have been proposed replacement systems by Russia and the EU,
there is always the real possibility that the US will turn on encryption
again and everyone's "SatNav" will be useless. As in "about 100 meters,
maybe two hundred, maybe 100 meters ago, turn in some direction and go for
a while".

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to misquote it.
 
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Sigh. The NTSC was created for B&W television.
Click to expand...
Acronyms are always changing, for example:

GSM (French for mobile system group) -> Global System for Mobiles.
DVD (Digital Video Disk) -> Digital Versatile Disk

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to misquote it.
 
isw wrote:
But they traded color drift for high-brightness ficker; not necessarily
a good choice, since the early color drift of NTSC, being due to
equipment instabilities, was soon fixed by better gear, while PAL's
flicker problem, having been designed in, persisted.
Click to expand...
I have a PAL TV set that displays very bright white as black. Someday I'll
replace it. :)

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to misquote it.
 
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Neither. The color burst has to be turned off for B&W programming,
so the color killer circuit doesn't create artifacts. Stations used to
be very careful about this, but over the years some just don't bother
anymore.
Click to expand...

Yeah but if they left the color burst on, it would present as a colored snow
all through the picture.

The OP is talking about a dominance of green, which I've seen too on
some B&W telecasts. I've also seen it there up to a commercial break, then
the next segment is normal.

I always figured it was something at the station rather than the print they
were using. Some peice of equipment in the chain that normalizes color or
something which needs to be turned off or bypassed for B&W shows.

-bruce
bje@ripco.com
 
The UK PAL (Phase Alternate Line) inverts the subcarrier
phase on alternate lines so phase distortion during transmission
cancells itself out - NTSC doesn't and is inherently prone to drift,
hence it was dubbed; Never Twice the Same Colour.

But they traded color drift for high-brightness ficker; not necessarily
a good choice, since the early color drift of NTSC, being due to
equipment instabilities, was soon fixed by better gear, while PAL's
flicker problem, having been designed in, persisted.
Click to expand...
As far as I know, this is closer to the truth. The consensus has generally
been that Never Twice the Same Color was due to poor studio practices, not
problems inherent in NTSC. To give a small example... The early episodes of
"Barney Miller" were shot on cameras that were not properly aligned or
calibrated. This is easily visible.
 
"isw" <isw@witzend.com> wrote in message
news:isw-4E35A7.20165205042011@[216.168.3.50]...
In article <KFLmp.2976$9h6.2210@newsfe02.ams2>,
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:infp1h$k9v$1@dont-email.me...
Also an artifact of NTSC -- Never The Same Colour

Not true. NTSC is neither inherently inaccurate or unstable.


The UK PAL (Phase Alternate Line) inverts the subcarrier phase on
alternate
lines so phase distortion during transmission cancells itself out - NTSC
doesn't and is inherently prone to drift, hence it was dubbed; Never
Twice
the Same Colour.

But they traded color drift for high-brightness ficker; not necessarily
a good choice, since the early color drift of NTSC, being due to
equipment instabilities, was soon fixed by better gear, while PAL's
flicker problem, having been designed in, persisted.
Click to expand...

Flicker is due to the 50Hz field rate, its only noticeable if you're used to
60Hz field rate.
 
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote in message
news:slrnipospk.u4u.gsm@cable.mendelson.com...
Ian Field wrote:
Flicker is due to the 50Hz field rate, its only noticeable if you're used
to
60Hz field rate.

Which really is a design flaw, there was nothing that required it, and a
60Hz
rate screen is not really a problem with 50Hz lighting.

The need to be synced to the power line frequency was needed in the 1930's
when the 405 line system was developed due to arc lights being used for
studio lighting. By the time PAL was developed (early 1960's) arc lights
were long gone.

It was just done to be incompatible with the US.
Click to expand...
You can get tablets for that.
 
Ian Field wrote:
Flicker is due to the 50Hz field rate, its only noticeable if you're used to
60Hz field rate.
Click to expand...
Which really is a design flaw, there was nothing that required it, and a 60Hz
rate screen is not really a problem with 50Hz lighting.

The need to be synced to the power line frequency was needed in the 1930's
when the 405 line system was developed due to arc lights being used for
studio lighting. By the time PAL was developed (early 1960's) arc lights
were long gone.

It was just done to be incompatible with the US.

The US got you back, the number one design criteria of ATSC was that it was
not DVB-T compatible.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to misquote it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Welcome to EDABoard.com

Sponsor

Back
Top